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Tor the Fallen
2007-08-07, 01:32 AM
Well? Seeing as how they're immune to just about everything in The Guide, what's the Bat to do when faced with the living dead?

Deepblue706
2007-08-07, 01:34 AM
He summons some bears to grapple them.

kpenguin
2007-08-07, 01:36 AM
Throw around a few disintegrates. Undead fort saves suck.

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-08-07, 01:36 AM
Let the Clericzilla deal with them, since that's his forte.

Other than that, they can still be affected by things like Slow (will save, but NOT mind-affecting), Solid Fog (Conjuration creation effect and will affect them no matter what), and they can still be Disentegrated.

Leon
2007-08-07, 01:37 AM
SubmitsNothing to see here

MrNexx
2007-08-07, 01:43 AM
Scrolls and wands are also useful for Blasty spells.

cupkeyk
2007-08-07, 01:52 AM
Blast, throw a few evard's black tentacles, command undead.

Tor the Fallen
2007-08-07, 01:53 AM
Ah yes, command undead. No save if they're mindless. Damn, that would have been brutal last session. Totally slipped my mind.

kpenguin
2007-08-07, 02:18 AM
Ah yes, command undead. No save if they're mindless. Damn, that would have been brutal last session. Totally slipped my mind.

Oooo yes. Command dead. Insanely annoying when your trying to throw zombie hordes at the PCs.

DiscipleofBob
2007-08-07, 02:34 AM
Throws a few Bat-Holy-Hand-Grenades, which of course he had already researched, developed, and has a few stashed in his belt for just such an occasion.

deadseashoals
2007-08-07, 04:45 AM
Ray of enfeeblement, web, glitterdust, slow, solid fog, resilient sphere, Evard's, wall of force, magic jar, acid fog, disintegrate, forcecage, control undead, maze, sunburst, gate, and shapechange are what stick out at me in the SRD.

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-08-07, 04:51 AM
Ray of enfeeblement, web, glitterdust, slow, solid fog, resilient sphere, Evard's, wall of force, magic jar, acid fog, disintegrate, forcecage, control undead, maze, sunburst, gate, and shapechange are what stick out at me in the SRD.

Undead are immune to ray of enfeeblement since it's stat penalty, don't see how magic jar would help, maze is mind-affecting. The rest do work.

Dausuul
2007-08-07, 05:50 AM
Undead are immune to ray of enfeeblement since it's stat penalty, don't see how magic jar would help, maze is mind-affecting. The rest do work.

Technically, ray of enfeeblement works on undead. They're immune to stat damage and drain, but not stat penalties.

Now, given the fluff of ray of enfeeblement, it makes no sense that it should work on undead. I would house-rule that it counts as a fatigue effect. But there's nothing in RAW that would prevent it from working.

Magic jar could be handy against a single big undead. Not so much against a horde of zombies, of course.

Thanatos 51-50
2007-08-07, 07:09 AM
Buff the fighter?

Alyorbase
2007-08-07, 07:15 AM
Watch as the cleric, who took Disciple of the sun as a feat, vaporizes them all in 1-2 rounds? :smallbiggrin:

kjones
2007-08-07, 08:42 AM
Fortunately, old chum, you always carry your can of Undead Repellant Spray.

Right next to your can of Carousel Reversal Spray.

AtomicKitKat
2007-08-07, 08:56 AM
Cleric+Radiant Servant of Pelor+that sunlight-blasting PrC from Libris Mortis. Instant dust.

Dragonmuncher
2007-08-07, 09:08 AM
Hm... what else do we have?

Disrupt undead does minor damage to undead, but it's a cantrip so good if you've got nothing better to use.

Command Undead has been said, along with Control Undead, but there's also Halt Undead

Undeath to Death is a Circle of Death that affects undead...

Wall of Fire deals double damage to undead

That's all I can think of.

Edit- Hooray! I'm a Barbarian! RRRRRUUUUUUGH!

goat
2007-08-07, 10:24 AM
He turns invisible and ignores them.

PirateMonk
2007-08-07, 10:55 AM
But then you don't get the XP!

Ulzgoroth
2007-08-07, 10:58 AM
But then you don't get the XP!
Only if your DM doesn't understand that a challenge doesn't have to be smashed into rubble in order to be overcome...

Miraqariftsky
2007-08-07, 11:02 AM
Well? Seeing as how they're immune to just about everything in The Guide, what's the Bat to do when faced with the living dead?


Wait-wait-wait, I thought Tor said "Batman"? If so, then he lures the bloody undead to an abandoned warehouse rigged with oil barrels set to explode. Gets them to fall into a pit trap in the middle of the warehouse, escapes with a bat-a-rope through a hole in the ceiling and flings in a flaring batarang. BOOM. Undead infestation solved.

Dausuul
2007-08-07, 12:16 PM
Wait-wait-wait, I thought Tor said "Batman"? If so, then he lures the bloody undead to an abandoned warehouse rigged with oil barrels set to explode. Gets them to fall into a pit trap in the middle of the warehouse, escapes with a bat-a-rope through a hole in the ceiling and flings in a flaring batarang. BOOM. Undead infestation solved.

Hmm. Given your post count, I'm going to assume that was intended humorously and you do know what a Batman wizard is... :smallsmile:

...in which case, that's pretty funny.

Thoughtbot360
2007-08-07, 05:26 PM
Febreeze. Febreeze solves everything. (http://www.nuklearpower.com/redmage03.php)

Thoughtbot360
2007-08-07, 05:29 PM
He turns invisible and ignores them.

Ah. No. See, a Wizard casts "Invisibilty" which undead can see right through. "Hide from Undead" is a Cleric spell. Now, he can buy a potion of Hide from Undead, but thats all.

Rachel Lorelei
2007-08-07, 05:31 PM
Ah. No. See, a Wizard casts "Invisibilty" which undead can see right through.

No, they can't. I'm not sure where the myth of undead having some sort of "life-force sense" comes from, but Invisibility works just as well against them as against anything else.

Leadfeathermcc
2007-08-07, 06:09 PM
Ah. No. See, a Wizard casts "Invisibilty" which undead can see right through. "Hide from Undead" is a Cleric spell. Now, he can buy a potion of Hide from Undead, but thats all.

Invisibility works just fine against Undead because. . .
Undead Do Not Have Special Eyesight (http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/rants/undeadseethroughillusions.html)

goat
2007-08-07, 06:18 PM
Well, they do if they were made from something that had tremorsense or blindfight or scent or something.

Or if it's a lich or a vampire that's cast a suitable spell.

edit - I seem to end up arguing against my own suggestions more than is healthy.

UglyPanda
2007-08-07, 06:29 PM
Libris Mortis contains a feat that allows undead to detect living creatures as points of light. The fact that they had to make a feat for it means that it didn't previously exist.

Matthew
2007-08-07, 09:43 PM
If we're going to continue calling Wizards by a Super Hero Nickname, I kind of feel that the other three principle archetypes should be afforded the same dubious honour. How about Fighter = Superman (pre flight version, Kryptonite = Magic) and Rogue = Spiderman? I cannot think of a suitable Superhero nickname for Clerics offhand, but I guess Sorcerers could be Robin.

Thoughtbot360
2007-08-07, 09:47 PM
If we're going to continue calling Wizards by a Super Hero Nickname, I kind of feel that the other three principle archetypes should be afforded the same dubious honour. How about Fighter = Superman (pre flight version, Kryptonite = Magic) and Rogue = Spiderman? I cannot think of a suitable Superhero nickname for Clerics offhand, but I guess Sorcerers could be Robin.

And Rangers could be Green Arrow! :biggrin:

Fax Celestis
2007-08-07, 09:58 PM
Clerics should be the Punisher. Totemists can be Wolverine!

Matthew
2007-08-07, 10:06 PM
Actually, how about Ironman for Clerics? [i.e. limited duration Power Up to be better than Superman that comes from a source outside the self]

My proposal:

Superman = Fighter
Spiderman = Rogue
Ironman = Cleric
Batman = Wizard

Aw, man. Totemist = Wolverine? There'll be so much arguing about who gets to be Wolverine...

MeklorIlavator
2007-08-07, 10:08 PM
Actually, with everything I've heard about totemist, I think they would make a good wolverine. The really hard question is who gets to be the monk?

horseboy
2007-08-07, 10:10 PM
Actually, with everything I've heard about totemist, I think they would make a good wolverine. The really hard question is who gets to be the monk?

Captain Ultra

Gralamin
2007-08-07, 10:20 PM
Factotum = Taskmaster? (I've seen you do it, now I can!)
Psion = Xavier?
Artificer = Dr. Doom?

horseboy
2007-08-07, 10:46 PM
Factotum = Taskmaster? (I've seen you do it, now I can!)
Psion = Xavier?
Artificer = Dr. Doom?
Artificer=Forge

Belteshazzar
2007-08-07, 10:47 PM
No, they can't. I'm not sure where the myth of undead having some sort of "life-force sense" comes from, but Invisibility works just as well against them as against anything else.

Well if they were Hopping Vampires they would still find you (yes I could not believe that China found a way to make an undead which sounds even more silly than the Slavic Vampire Watermelons, but it is a legit myth.) However all you need to do is hold your breath and they cant see you.

I thing some western incorporeal undead may have lifesense as well but that makes some small measure of sense.

PS: Kryptonite doesn't even have to equal magic for Superman/Fighter, from what I hear he has near to no defense against either.

deadseashoals
2007-08-07, 11:45 PM
Undead are immune to ray of enfeeblement since it's stat penalty, don't see how magic jar would help, maze is mind-affecting. The rest do work.

Undead are not immune to ray of enfeeblement, as they are not immune to stat penalties. Magic jar would help the same way any sort of domination type effect would help. And maze is definitely not mind affecting, that would make it compare pretty unfavorably with Otto's irresistible dance. In fact, a mindless creature is basically going to be unable to escape a maze.

ClericofPhwarrr
2007-08-07, 11:52 PM
Actually, with everything I've heard about totemist, I think they would make a good wolverine. The really hard question is who gets has to be the monk?

Fixed that for you :smallwink:.


Barbarians (preferably the PH2 version) would be the Hulk, but that's just stating the obvious.

Josh the Aspie
2007-08-08, 12:12 AM
Well if they were Hopping Vampires they would still find you (yes I could not believe that China found a way to make an undead which sounds even more silly than the Slavic Vampire Watermelons, but it is a legit myth.) However all you need to do is hold your breath and they cant see you.

I thing some western incorporeal undead may have lifesense as well but that makes some small measure of sense.

PS: Kryptonite doesn't even have to equal magic for Superman/Fighter, from what I hear he has near to no defense against either.

Depends on the reality, but right. Really I think that "rust monster secretions" would be more along the lines for fighter-man's kryptonite.

The Great Skenardo
2007-08-08, 12:22 AM
Grease is likewise a wonderful spell. Shambling zombies take forever to muster enough partial actions to stand up and stay up. Combine that with their terrible reflex saves, and it's like watching a bunch of....Well, it's like watching some zombies trying to stand up and not succeed at it repeatedly.

Also: Wall of Fire. Extra damage to undead, and a nice long duration. Most mindless undead will just try and walk through it.

For more intelligent undead, use black tentacles to grapple vampires, and then solid Fog to hem them in if they try and vapor-escape.

Mummies and ghouls can be handled via solid Fog or Wall of Stone.

Incorporeal undead are a little trickier, as they can sidestep most of your attempts to contain them.

Most undead have a weak stat or save that you can exploit. Some have terrible dexterity and reflex, others a low strength or grapple, and still others have vulnerabilities to sunlight or fire that can be exploited.

Doc_Outlands
2007-08-08, 12:37 AM
Incorporeal undead are a little trickier, as they can sidestep most of your attempts to contain them.


I thought Wall of Force took care of that - its a force effect, just like force spells that damage incorporeals, so should trap them.

Also - Transdimensionalized Web.

Tor the Fallen
2007-08-08, 12:55 AM
I thought Wall of Force took care of that - its a force effect, just like force spells that damage incorporeals, so should trap them.

Also - Transdimensionalized Web.

The wall's only 10 feet high; and they can go under it.

Josh the Aspie
2007-08-08, 12:56 AM
6 walls of force to make a cube of force? A single sphere of force?

Jack Mann
2007-08-08, 02:25 AM
Aw, man. Totemist = Wolverine? There'll be so much arguing about who gets to be Wolverine...

Fine. Complete Warrior samurai can be Wolverine.

And life is the fighter's kryptonite.

tainsouvra
2007-08-08, 02:45 AM
6 walls of force to make a cube of force? A single sphere of force? Forcecage, Windowless Cell option.
Expensive though.

Dausuul
2007-08-08, 04:57 AM
Forcecage, Windowless Cell option.
Expensive though.

Eh, just throw resilient sphere. Undead generally have mediocre Reflex saves.

Xuincherguixe
2007-08-08, 05:00 AM
With everyone's opinion of them? Monks = Auqaman.

Fits too, since one of the fluff abilities they get is being able to speak any language.

Quirinus_Obsidian
2007-08-08, 06:58 AM
Wizards against a real undead (dread wraiths, Ghasts and Necromentals with class levels, etc), she/he gets negative leveled and INT drained until she/he forgets her/his cantrips and thinks she/he back in the stone age. :smallbiggrin:

Evil DM Mark3
2007-08-08, 07:41 AM
Undead also tend to have mediocre hp, particulary the templated undead.

Batman wizards find undead harder, blasters finaly get to shine.

Setra
2007-08-08, 08:02 AM
Monk = Hong Kong Phooey

Cookie if you know who that is.

Doc_Outlands
2007-08-08, 08:20 AM
Monk = Hong Kong Phooey

Cookie if you know who that is.

claims his cookie

That just so totally fits that it isn't funny...

Matthew
2007-08-08, 08:57 AM
Fine. Complete Warrior samurai can be Wolverine.

And life is the fighter's kryptonite.

Not a fan of the overhyped immortal one, then?

Bah, over critical of Fighters much? I suppose you could say 3e is the Fighter's Kryptonite, or maybe Levels 6-20...

MrNexx
2007-08-08, 09:07 AM
Not a fan of the overhyped immortal one, then?

Bah, over critical of Fighters much? I suppose you could say 3e is the Fighter's Kryptonite, or maybe Levels 6-20...

That is an interesting bit; when 3e came out, I was overjoyed, because fighters were finally getting something... but, in the end, it's wound up making them even less of an attractive option.

Matthew
2007-08-08, 09:15 AM
I always found it crazy that they were actually weakened for 3e, being prevented from acquiring Specialisation at Level 1!

Josh the Aspie
2007-08-08, 09:20 AM
I always found it crazy that they were actually weakened for 3e, being prevented from acquiring Specialisation at Level 1!

Requiring certain levels for those special feats actually protects the fighter from being nothing but a cherry pick class.

Ulzgoroth
2007-08-08, 09:23 AM
Requiring certain levels for those special feats actually protects the fighter from being nothing but a cherry pick class.
...or would, if those feats weren't terrible.

Matthew
2007-08-08, 09:25 AM
The Fighter is already a Cherry Pick Class. Nobody cares about gaining +2 DB with one weapon enough to hang on until fourth level.

MrNexx
2007-08-08, 09:40 AM
The Fighter is already a Cherry Pick Class. Nobody cares about gaining +2 DB with one weapon enough to hang on until fourth level.

Word. Especially since they have to spend two feats to get it... and then it only applies to a single type of weapon. Weapon Specialization would be worth it as a 2-feat combo if it applied to all weapons... but not now.

The thing is, they didn't really make the fighter weaker (limiting specialization aside); what they did was make almost every other class relatively more powerful. Thieves got sneak attack, evasion, uncanny dodge. Wizards got the ability to make a ton of scrolls, more spells per day (forget things like Ray of Frost... not having to use a 1st level slot for Detect Magic and Read Magic is a huge boost to the wizard). Clerics were freed from the trap of having to memorize Cure Light Wounds... and could even cast some of their other spells, since orisons allowed them to emergency heal people. Druids got their shapechanging freed up and moved forward two levels. Bards were also pretty shafted compared to 2nd edition... they lost full access to the wizard list and were limited in their number of songs per day.

The full-BAB classes, though, really only got things they used to be able to do as part of being warriors spread out. Ranger's combat style? Moved to 2nd level. Paladin's Immunity to Disease? Moved to 3rd level. Fighter's specialization was moved to a later level AND nerfed (since it no longer provides the crucial 3 attacks every 2 rounds... the main reason I always wanted to specialize). Things like disarm now draw attacks of opportunity, instead of a strike penalty. At the same time, monsters did and took more damage.

3e nerfed most of the Full BAB classes.

Matthew
2007-08-08, 09:47 AM
Indeed. I did mean weaker relative to the other Classes! The way Attribute Bonuses work now make them more powerful than AD&D Fighters.

Still, the way their Saving Throws progress now is absolutely dire compared to AD&D. And you're dead on about the Number of Attacks aspect. Iterative Attacks are a joke.

MrNexx
2007-08-08, 09:58 AM
Actually, a thought on Weapon Specialization... make it somewhat equivalent of Rapid Shot or Flurry of Blows, in that you get a second attack, at your highest AB, with a -2 (-1 because you have to have weapon focus). That makes it a much more useful ability, especially since fighters will be able to two-strike in melee two levels ahead of everyone else.

Matthew
2007-08-08, 10:17 AM
I am in favour of dumping Iterative Attacks altogether and giving Full BAB Classes back the old Attack Rates.

Timmit
2007-08-08, 02:17 PM
Actually, with everything I've heard about totemist, I think they would make a good wolverine. The really hard question is who gets to be the monk?Squirrel Girl.

horseboy
2007-08-08, 02:40 PM
With everyone's opinion of them? Monks = Auqaman.

Fits too, since one of the fluff abilities they get is being able to speak any language.

Wow, I'm not sure who's more insulted. That might be right.

Also, Fighters=Apache Chief. If he's not enlarged, what good is he?

Godna
2007-10-03, 11:42 PM
either
Fighter = AquaMan
Or
Monk = AquaMan


Because except a very limited set of circumstances he is useless

Skjaldbakka
2007-10-03, 11:54 PM
Fighter = Superman

It fits perfectly, as neither has any respectable defence against magic, and fighter is awesome in a world without magic.

Nowhere Girl
2007-10-04, 12:20 AM
Strangely enough, Batman is actually a lot more like an Intelligence-focused rogue than a wizard. Or whatever that class was that had all skills as class skills (not exemplar -- the other one).

A wizard is much more like Pre-Crisis Superman: a power (spell) for every occasion, and if an occasion comes up that requires a spell he doesn't have, he (flip through sourcebooks) ... aha! ... can probably come up with a spell for that, too! And he always goes first. Even if you were supposed to go first. :smalltongue:

WitchSlayer
2007-10-04, 12:27 AM
Bard can be Robin
Monk can be Mr. Immortal (Can't do anything but lasts a long time)
Almost forgot, Druid is Squirrel Girl.

Nowhere Girl
2007-10-04, 12:39 AM
I'm seeing the bard as more like John Constantine. On the surface? Not that powerful, apparently. But somehow he just always seems to get his way ... :smalltongue:

WitchSlayer
2007-10-04, 12:42 AM
Actually the Bard can be the Preacher. Makes sense doesn't it?

horseboy
2007-10-04, 12:43 AM
Almost forgot, Druid is Squirrel Girl.
Even druids don't contain enough win to be Squirrel Girl.

Nowhere Girl
2007-10-04, 01:21 AM
Actually the Bard can be the Preacher. Makes sense doesn't it?

The Word ... Diplomacy cheese and Fascinate/Suggestion cheese ...

I concede your point. :smalltongue:

Kurald Galain
2007-10-04, 06:01 AM
Well? Seeing as how they're immune to just about everything in The Guide, what's the Bat to do when faced with the living dead?

Obviously, he asks his familiar to distract the death knight while he runs to safety...

martyboy74
2007-10-04, 06:45 AM
Obviously, he asks his familiar to distract the death knight while he runs to safety...

Is his familiar a bird?

Wraith
2007-10-04, 06:49 AM
Although everyone seems to have their own ideas about what Batman would do vs. Undead, I'm probably proving myself an irredeemable bookworm by pointing out that DC Comics already have their own take on it! :smallsmile:

Batman: Red Rain/Bloodstorm/Crimson Mist (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Batman-Dracula-Rain-Doug-Moench/dp/1852864370/ref=sr_1_2/202-0731198-2377427?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1191498891&sr=8-2) says that, when faced with the Undead, Batman gets infected with Vampirism, then uses his newfound strength and focus to slaughter his sire, his brother-spawn and continues to mount his one-man war against crime in Gotham City, albeit now fighting the rising bloodlust within himself until he reaches breaking point in a final battle with the Joker....

So now you know :smallbiggrin:

Roderick_BR
2007-10-04, 06:52 AM
Throws a few Bat-Holy-Hand-Grenades, which of course he had already researched, developed, and has a few stashed in his belt for just such an occasion.
Seeing how the comic book Batman had his more than fair share of undead horde fighting, I wouldn't doubt he has some Bat-holy-hand-grenades in his belt, "just in case".

Jayabalard
2007-10-04, 09:45 AM
No, they can't. I'm not sure where the myth of undead having some sort of "life-force sense" comes from, but Invisibility works just as well against them as against anything else.The myth generally comes from folklore and other games, where the living dead don't need to be able to see you to sense you.

OneWinged4ngel
2007-10-04, 09:52 AM
Well? Seeing as how they're immune to just about everything in The Guide, what's the Bat to do when faced with the living dead?

Let's see.

Level 1 Batman has a familiar. Level 1 Batman sees Undead. Level 1 Batman shares Light of Lunia to his familiar, and deals 8d6 points of damage to undead. Since Undead is CR 1-4, undead dies from 8d6 points of damage. Yay.

Also, undead aren't immune to half the things in the guide. How do they avoid Web? Solid Fog? Forcecage? Oh wait... they don't. The Bat has a thousand tools with which to pwninate the undead. Check the guide again.

NullAshton
2007-10-04, 10:00 AM
Invisibility would be a good start, so the undead target the high HP people instead of you. Then haste everyone(assuming boring old zombies/skeletons), letting them bash apart the zombies/skeletons and giving a good escape plan if needed.

There are also other things to do... Halt undead, a 3rd level spell, freezes up to three unintelligent undead with no save. There's not much the wizard can do to protect allies from energy draining undead, though, the cleric would have to do that.

Rogue 7
2007-10-04, 10:06 AM
Hmm. Given your post count, I'm going to assume that was intended humorously and you do know what a Batman wizard is... :smallsmile:

...in which case, that's pretty funny.

I've heard the term bandied about, but I'm new, so tell me, what exactly does a Batman wizard do?

kamikasei
2007-10-04, 10:18 AM
I've heard the term bandied about, but I'm new, so tell me, what exactly does a Batman wizard do?

Like Batman, he "wins any fight, given preparation".

See here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18500).

Zim
2007-10-04, 10:28 AM
These are some low-level wizard solutions that fall into the "Batman" category IMO:

Magic stone is a great scroll to keep handy at lower levels.
Grease is verrry funny when combined with zombies. :smallamused:
Incorporial undead need force damage and magic weapons, so dust off that wand of magic missile and buff the fighter with magic weapon
Keep that mage armour scroll handy to buff the front liners too!

Oh and:
Superman = Paladin
The Tick = Fighter or maybe Monk
Invader Zim =Artificer

Quirinus_Obsidian
2007-10-04, 10:32 AM
Like Batman, he "wins any fight, given preparation".

See here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18500).


Perhaps, the ever-popular Batman wizard would win. With Preparation. Okay. With preparation. Hmm. A Good DM would know how to deal with the omni-perfect above all else dominant and utterly indestructible d4 HD Batman wizard. Yep. They sure would. =P

Emperor Demonking
2007-10-04, 10:56 AM
Perhaps, the ever-popular Batman wizard would win. With Preparation. Okay. With preparation. Hmm. A Good DM would know how to deal with the omni-perfect above all else dominant and utterly indestructible d4 HD Batman wizard. Yep. They sure would. =P

Not when thier high enough level.

Machete
2007-10-04, 11:12 AM
Hide from undead and find a place for an 8 hour nap.

Telonius
2007-10-04, 11:13 AM
Batman vs. Solomon Grundy? Should be an entertaining fight.

Emperor Demonking
2007-10-04, 11:13 AM
Isn't hide from undead a cleric spell.

Oh yes, invisibility.

Tor the Fallen
2007-10-04, 02:07 PM
Ironic. What would Batman do with this thread?


Let's see.

Level 1 Batman has a familiar. Level 1 Batman sees Undead. Level 1 Batman shares Light of Lunia to his familiar, and deals 8d6 points of damage to undead. Since Undead is CR 1-4, undead dies from 8d6 points of damage. Yay.

Also, undead aren't immune to half the things in the guide. How do they avoid Web? Solid Fog? Forcecage? Oh wait... they don't. The Bat has a thousand tools with which to pwninate the undead. Check the guide again.

Does web actually work on ghosts and other incorporeal undead? Does solid cage or forcecage actually do anything, or does the lich/vampire/etc. just dimension door out and tear you up later?

mostlyharmful
2007-10-04, 03:13 PM
Ironic. What would Batman do with this thread?



Does web actually work on ghosts and other incorporeal undead? Does solid cage or forcecage actually do anything, or does the lich/vampire/etc. just dimension door out and tear you up later?

Once you're talking about incorporeal undead, Liches and Vampires Batman has NOOOOOO trouble given the spells available at that CR appropriate Wizard, the problem is at lower levels i think. In which case Web, Grease and Invisibility are probably your best bet for avoiding Zombies and Gasts.

technophile
2007-10-04, 05:28 PM
Does web actually work on ghosts and other incorporeal undead? Does solid cage or forcecage actually do anything, or does the lich/vampire/etc. just dimension door out and tear you up later?

For incorporeal undead, force effects work fine.

If you can forcecage a lich, you can probably dimensional anchor him too.

NullAshton
2007-10-04, 05:30 PM
For incorporeal undead, force effects work fine.

If you can forcecage a lich, you can probably dimensional anchor him too.

The lich probably also has disintergrate, however.

Dr. Weasel
2007-10-04, 06:07 PM
Ah. No. See, a Wizard casts "Invisibilty" which undead can see right through.

See? It's... it's funny because he's invisible? And they're seeing right through him? Get it?


Maybe?



Never mind.

OneWinged4ngel
2007-10-04, 06:30 PM
Once you're talking about incorporeal undead, Liches and Vampires Batman has NOOOOOO trouble given the spells available at that CR appropriate Wizard, the problem is at lower levels i think. In which case Web, Grease and Invisibility are probably your best bet for avoiding Zombies and Gasts.

There is no problem at lower levels. You deal considerable damage to undead with Light of X spells shared with your familiar. Level 1 lets you do 8d6 damage in a round to any undead with touch attacks. You get two rays from the Light of X spells, and they are self buffs and thus shareable with your familiar for four rays. The rays deal xd6 (1d6 for Light of Lunia, the level 1 spell) damage each, and they deal twice that much against undead. That's not too shabby. Oh, it also works on Outsiders.

By the way, in the case that you can't actually obliterate the opposition, you could always *buff the guy in your party who can.*

shadowdemon_lord
2007-10-04, 07:11 PM
Batman against undead at low levels? grease, enlarge person, bull's strength, magic weapon. Just keep buffing the fighter till he kills everything. At high levels? Meh, quickened true strike followed by disintegrate. At mid levels? Your still probably better off buffing the fighter.

Khanderas
2007-10-05, 06:58 AM
Overland flight.
Then the wizard does whatevertheheck he wants.

Ashtar
2007-10-05, 07:17 AM
What's the source (book, article) of the "Light of Lunia", "Light of X" spells, OneWinged4ngel ? Crystal Keep doesn't have them from any source, and I can't find the source from google (although I've seen the spell on a Gleemax spell list).

Edit: Sorry, I've found it:
light of Lunia
Spell Compendium page 132
evocation [good, light]
Celestia 1, cleric 1, sorcerer/wizard 1
medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
target/effect

Keld Denar
2007-10-05, 08:08 AM
Monk = Hong Kong Phooey

Cookie if you know who that is.

Isn't he the "Number One Super Guy"?

Vs incorporial undead, a scroll of Transdimensionalized Web is autowin. Even ghosts can't get out of it. They have no str score, so they can't make str checks to break out, they usually don't have ranks in escape artist, so thats just a straight dex check, which they usually can't peak the DC. It doesn't matter if they make the initial reflex save, because the incorporial subtype makes them immune to grapple and entangle and such. Also, if positioned right, the web blocks line of effect, which prevents ghosts from using most of their nastier attacks.

Glitterdust is reletively effective vs corporial undead. Will is their good save, but at low levels, they won't have above a +3-4, which a wiz with a DC 16-17 save shouldn't have a problem with.

Ray of Enfeeblement is another great anti-undead spell. Great vs high hit dice zombies and skells and Mohrgs even since their str doesn't scale as fast as their HD.

Sunburst is the ultimate antiundead spell, though. Its radius is HUGE! A failed fort save means autodestruction vs light vulnerable undead. Even if the save is successful, the damage vs undead scales really well. Too bad it's an 8th level spell.

Solid Fog buys several rounds vs corporial undead and vamps in gasious. It wouldn't effect incorp undead unless you had transdimensional spell.

Ghost Trap is a very nice spell to scroll for batman's utility belt. Its a new one in SC I believe, that makes all incorporials become corporial. It even deals damage to them if they were hiding in a wall, since they get shunted out for a massive 1d6 damage.

Also, some undead, such as Dread Wraiths have lifesense, which allows them to locate your square just as blind sense or tremorsense. They still have 50% miss chance vs you if you are invisible.

Chronos
2007-10-05, 07:15 PM
It doesn't matter if they make the initial reflex save, because the incorporial subtype makes them immune to grapple and entangle and such....So, what exactly does the web do to them?

Clementx
2007-10-05, 09:10 PM
Vs incorporial undead, a scroll of Transdimensionalized Web is autowin. Even ghosts can't get out of it. They have no str score, so they can't make str checks to break out, they usually don't have ranks in escape artist, so thats just a straight dex check, which they usually can't peak the DC.

Except ghosts do have Str scores on the Ethereal Plane since they are solid there, which is where the Transdimensional Web is binding them, since as you admit, they are immune to it on the Material where they are incorporeal.