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Tor the Fallen
2007-08-07, 01:43 AM
I'm not sure what's so great about Solid Fog. It traps a creature in it for 2 rounds, takes up a bunch of space, hampers your allies movement, occupies a 4th level slot, and you can't cast any of your typical Batman spells into it without having a really huge chance to miss.

Other than using to stall for two rounds of buff, I'm not seeing a whole lot of uses.

MrNexx
2007-08-07, 01:59 AM
I'm not sure what's so great about Solid Fog. It traps a creature in it for 2 rounds, takes up a bunch of space, hampers your allies movement, occupies a 4th level slot, and you can't cast any of your typical Batman spells into it without having a really huge chance to miss.

Other than using to stall for two rounds of buff, I'm not seeing a whole lot of uses.

It can also help you control which enemies you're dealing with, by capturing some of them.

Also, you're not Batman if you don't have a utility belt. While they're stuck in the fog, blast them with other spells (you are flying, right?)

Tor the Fallen
2007-08-07, 02:03 AM
While they're stuck in the fog, blast them with other spells (you are flying, right?)

Only AoE spells can reliably penetrate the fog, unless you have some way of getting tremorsense or something. As I recall, virtually all the Batman spells require attack rolls.

ByeLindgren
2007-08-07, 02:12 AM
By the time you're throwing around Solid Fog, you're also throwing around Confusion, Fear, Slow, Stinking Cloud, and a bunch of other spells on your belt. Just because no-save rays are quite delicious doesn't mean they're the only thing you prepare.

Tor the Fallen
2007-08-07, 02:22 AM
By the time you're throwing around Solid Fog, you're also throwing around Confusion, Fear, Slow, Stinking Cloud, and a bunch of other spells on your belt. Just because no-save rays are quite delicious doesn't mean they're the only thing you prepare.

Precisely. Why use fog when you can use confusion, fear, enervation or evard's tentacles. At least with those spells, you can still reach your opponent, and your allies are still useful. With fog up, you can't target anyone in it, which means you can't slow them, and why bother laying a fog down before you cast confusion?

I can see it being a situationally useful spell that stays in scroll form. Whip it out to stop some unexpected creature from charging while you buff yourself/the party/buy a little extra time to flee. Other than that, it's a pretty poor spell choice.

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-08-07, 02:33 AM
Because Solid Fog has three primary advantages:

1) No Save
2) No SR
3) Conjuration (Creation) effect, and so is not affected by AMF.

You can break up a swarm comming after you by putting half of it in a solid fog. That way you have only half as many critters to deal with at a time.

You're thinking about it in a one-on-one perspective, think of it as a multi-mook battlefield control. You can split up hordes fairly easily with this spell, breaking them down into managable bites. Furthermore, it starts a logjam behind it, because people generally don't want to go into it, and it slows them down if they do. Thus, it can hamper many more critters than can actually fit in a solid fog if placed properly.

True Sight negates the total concealment of Solid Fog, and it is absolutely devistating when used in conjunction with things like Fear. It keeps them from running too far away so the Meat Shield can catch up and beat them down. Freedom of Movement lets him do so easily.

Plus it is almost the only battlefield control spell that will reliabally work on the Tarrasque.

Tor the Fallen
2007-08-07, 02:43 AM
Because Solid Fog has three primary advantages:

1) No Save
2) No SR
3) Conjuration (Creation) effect, and so is not affected by AMF.

You can break up a swarm comming after you by putting half of it in a solid fog. That way you have only half as many critters to deal with at a time.

You can also break up a swarm with, I dunno, a Fireball, or Fear. More enemies means fewer HD per enemey, means fewer hit points and poor saves. In those rare instances when a golem horde is bearing down on you, yes, a Solid Fog would be useful. No reason why it can't be kept in scroll form.


True Sight negates the total concealment of Solid Fog,

I don't gather that from the SRD's description of True Seeing

You confer on the subject the ability to see all things as they actually are. The subject sees through normal and magical darkness, notices secret doors hidden by magic, sees the exact locations of creatures or objects under blur or displacement effects, sees invisible creatures or objects normally, sees through illusions, and sees the true form of polymorphed, changed, or transmuted things. Further, the subject can focus its vision to see into the Ethereal Plane (but not into extradimensional spaces). The range of true seeing conferred is 120 feet.

True seeing, however, does not penetrate solid objects. It in no way confers X-ray vision or its equivalent. It does not negate concealment, including that caused by fog and the like. True seeing does not help the viewer see through mundane disguises, spot creatures who are simply hiding, or notice secret doors hidden by mundane means. In addition, the spell effects cannot be further enhanced with known magic, so one cannot use true seeing through a crystal ball or in conjunction with clairaudience/clairvoyance.

Material Component
An ointment for the eyes that costs 250 gp and is made from mushroom powder, saffron, and fat.


and it is absolutely devistating when used in conjunction with things like Fear.

Why? Why not cast Fear to begin with? All Solid Fog really does is trap a creature for two rounds so you can blast it.


It keeps them from running too far away so the Meat Shield can catch up and beat them down. Freedom of Movement lets him do so easily.

Yeah. Things do get away, especially with the popularity of Fear spells on these boards.


Plus it is almost the only battlefield control spell that will reliabally work on the Tarrasque.

Fly is better, unless you plan on blasting the Tarrasque while it gets mired in the Solid Fog for a couple rounds.

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-08-07, 02:53 AM
You can also break up a swarm with, I dunno, a Fireball, or Fear. More enemies means fewer HD per enemey, means fewer hit points and poor saves. In those rare instances when a golem horde is bearing down on you, yes, a Solid Fog would be useful. No reason why it can't be kept in scroll form.
Both of which have saves, wheras Solid Fog doesn't. It can be used in conjunction with either spell as a 'safety net', to keep them from jumping all over you if they make their saves.



Why? Why not cast Fear to begin with? All Solid Fog really does is trap a creature for two rounds so you can blast it.
Not just A creature, but a WHOLE LOT of creatures. And again, if they make their will saves, or are immune to fear effects (like undead, oozes, constructs, vermin, anything mindless...)...



Yeah. Things do get away, especially with the popularity of Fear spells on these boards. which is why I use Solid Fog first. I don't want those tasty chunks of xp to get away, and I certainly don't want those possibly dangerous things comming back after the spell wears off. So I mire them for a turn or two. That's plenty long enough for either me or the Meat Shield to deal with them.




Fly is better, unless you plan on blasting the Tarrasque while it gets mired in the Solid Fog for a couple rounds.

What if you're trying to keep it from getting somewhere? It will negate it's charge ability anyways.

I'm not saying it is perfect, but it is a good spell for it's level, with quite a few uses. If nothing else, it can be used to trap the medusa, and keeping you safe from it's gaze attack, while you level AE stuff in it's hex until it falls over.

Thurbane
2007-08-07, 02:54 AM
Solid Fog has become a major incovenience in my game with a player (Beguiler) throwing it around with reckless abandon. Depending on the exact positioning, it can trap an opponent for up to 5 or 6 rounds, they get NO SR and NO save.

IMHO, some kind of save should be allowed to lessen the effect, similarly to Web and Entangle. I also find it a bit odd that it affects a kobold and a hill giant equally, despite their different Strength scores and mass.

Tor the Fallen
2007-08-07, 02:57 AM
Solid Fog has become a major incovenience in my game with a player (Beguiler) throwing it arounf with reckless abandon. Depending on the exact positioning, it can trap an opponent for up to 5 or 6 rounds, they get NO SR and NO save.

IMHO, some kind of save should be allowed to lessen the effect, similarly to Web and Entangle.

I can see the power of it with spontaneous casting, but I have much more useful things to do than cast it. Btw, how does he trap them for 5 or 6 rounds? I can see 4 rounds without using a sculpt spell.

Thurbane
2007-08-07, 02:59 AM
Trust me, I've plotted it out on the battle map many times in the last few weeks. Assume a 10 ft corridor, and a large creature, and the creature being caught 5 feet into the SF when it begins, and needing to get through to the other side.

Swooper
2007-08-07, 05:20 AM
You seem to have misunderstood something about Solid Fog. It does NOT lower your base speed to 5 feet per round, enabling you to run 15-20 feet (depending on your armour). It limits you to a maximum of 5 feet moved per round. Sound useful now?

tarbrush
2007-08-07, 05:53 AM
Also, it is one half of the wondefully named 'Microwave', which consists of solid fog, followed up with acid fog or cloudkill. The goodness should be obvious.

Evil DM Mark3
2007-08-07, 06:00 AM
You seem to have misunderstood something about Solid Fog. It does NOT lower your base speed to 5 feet per round, enabling you to run 15-20 feet (depending on your armour). It limits you to a maximum of 5 feet moved per round. Sound useful now?

Actually I recall quite a bit of debate over this one. The description (that is to say the line "at a speed of 5ft") can be read both ways. Either they move 5ft regardless or their speed is 5ft. I favour movment speed becomes 5ft, because it makes using more than one move action worht somthing but even then is is a highly useful spell. Why? You cannot run if you can't see where you are going so max of 10ft move per round, and that means the creature has had their ability to contribute 100% neutralized.

Dausuul
2007-08-07, 06:05 AM
You seem to have misunderstood something about Solid Fog. It does NOT lower your base speed to 5 feet per round, enabling you to run 15-20 feet (depending on your armour). It limits you to a maximum of 5 feet moved per round. Sound useful now?

No, it limits you to a base speed of 5 feet. Read the spell. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/solidFog.htm) It says "speed of 5 feet," not "speed of 5 feet per round."

However, there is a strong case to be made that you cannot run in solid fog since you can't run if you can't see where you're going. So you would in fact be limited to 10 feet per round, assuming you took a double move.

Jack_Simth
2007-08-07, 06:22 AM
3) Conjuration (Creation) effect, and so is not affected by AMF.
It isn't Instant, so it is indeed affected by an Antimagic Field.

Tyger
2007-08-07, 07:25 AM
INterpreting the spell to mean 5 foot movement (which you could then move twice and be out of the spell in two rounds tops) flies in the face of balance issues. Why make it a 4th level spell at all then? There are level 0 spells that take a monster out for one round...

It seems obvious, to me at least, that the 5 foot movement rate is intended to be a maximum movement. Hell, even falling through it slows you down, that's one heck of a lot of resistance.

Making it otherwise makes the spell too limited and not nearly powerful enough to be a level 4 spell.

Dausuul
2007-08-07, 07:41 AM
INterpreting the spell to mean 5 foot movement (which you could then move twice and be out of the spell in two rounds tops) flies in the face of balance issues. Why make it a 4th level spell at all then? There are level 0 spells that take a monster out for one round...

It seems obvious, to me at least, that the 5 foot movement rate is intended to be a maximum movement. Hell, even falling through it slows you down, that's one heck of a lot of resistance.

Making it otherwise makes the spell too limited and not nearly powerful enough to be a level 4 spell.

On the contrary, it's quite powerful... mostly at higher levels, though. At low levels there are other spells that are better, but later on it becomes incredibly useful to have a spell that can keep an enemy out of the fight for two rounds and grants neither saving throw nor spell resistance.

Making it 5 feet per round would be utterly broken. It's supposed to be battlefield control, not a win button.

As for daze, that spell a) works only on humanoids of 4 Hit Dice or less, b) grants a saving throw, c) allows spell resistance, d) affects only one target, and e) can't double as a barrier if you need to block off part of the battlefield.

Citizen Joe
2007-08-07, 07:49 AM
...any creature attempting to move through it progresses at a speed of 5 feet, regardless of its normal speed...

To me that says replace normal speed with 5 feet.

As to the level, it is a long duration spell and has other effects besides the movement hindering. It is also a spread, so if you shape it or cast it in a confined space, like a dungeon corridor, you can get more bang for your buck. It will also conveniently fit into a wand.

I especially like the slowfalling effect. So, as a neat terrain feature, you could stick a permanent solid fog at the bottom of a 5' diameter well and then just jump in.

Ikkitosen
2007-08-07, 07:49 AM
On Making it 5 feet per round would be utterly broken. It's supposed to be battlefield control, not a win button.

I'm sorry to say that the ever-reliable Skip Williams agrees with you in this article (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040720a), which probably weakens your argument :smallamused:

Tyger
2007-08-07, 08:25 AM
I'm sorry to say that the ever-reliable Skip Williams agrees with you in this article (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040720a), which probably weakens your argument :smallamused:

Hmmm... well, while not exactly 100% reliable, at least its something from WotC on the topic. That's what we'll be going with in my group anyway. Still weakens the spell beyond what I thought was appropriate, but hey, not too shabby.

Add in an Evard's, and they are only moving 5 feet as a full round action... and getting grappled at every step. Toss an Acid Fog on their for full nugety goodness.

Ethdred
2007-08-07, 08:29 AM
Also, it is one half of the wondefully named 'Microwave', which consists of solid fog, followed up with acid fog or cloudkill. The goodness should be obvious.

Acid fog has the same effect as Solid Fog, so is the microwave on its own!

One big advantage of Solid Fog (and similar) is that, yes, it blocks your sight, but it also blocks the enemy's sight. So it can't see what you are doing - be that running away, summoning lots of stuff, turning invisible, creating illusions or a combination thereof. Maybe of limited use in a big open field, but in a 10 or 20' corridor, pure win. You can even use it as instant cover from missile weapons (no, your arrow cannot go through 20' of Solid Fog)

Tyger
2007-08-07, 08:54 AM
Acid fog has the same effect as Solid Fog, so is the microwave on its own!

One big advantage of Solid Fog (and similar) is that, yes, it blocks your sight, but it also blocks the enemy's sight. So it can't see what you are doing - be that running away, summoning lots of stuff, turning invisible, creating illusions or a combination thereof. Maybe of limited use in a big open field, but in a 10 or 20' corridor, pure win. You can even use it as instant cover from missile weapons (no, your arrow cannot go through 20' of Solid Fog)


Well, Acid Fog + Solid Fog = 5 foot movement as a full round action. So 4-8 rounds in the Fog... much crispier.

Rachel Lorelei
2007-08-07, 08:58 AM
I don't often memorize Solid Fog as a wizard (and wouldn't take it as a sorcerer, too situational)... I do usually make a few scrolls, though. There's no save and no SR, so it's a great spell for scrolls. The times I've found it handy are when, well, I need to buy the party a few rounds--for example, a fight we weren't expecting. Pull out a scroll, poof! Solid Fog. Everyone has time to buff up and get ready.

Ikkitosen
2007-08-07, 09:02 AM
Or a wand - it's just the right level, and as you say isn't save-dependent.

Ulzgoroth
2007-08-07, 09:05 AM
Well, Acid Fog + Solid Fog = 5 foot movement as a full round action. So 4-8 rounds in the Fog... much crispier.
Does it? Taken literally, each just reduces the base speed to 5 feet, for the same effect from both together as from one. Taken logically, I don't see why you'd expect the fog to be able to get any thicker...

Tyger
2007-08-07, 09:10 AM
Does it? Taken literally, each just reduces the base speed to 5 feet, for the same effect from both together as from one. Taken logically, I don't see why you'd expect the fog to be able to get any thicker...

As noted by the Skip Williams article above (yes, I know, but its the best "official" word we have) anything that would also impede your movement takes the 5 foot per move action and turns it into a 5 foot move as a full round action.

Makes sense... the fog really is twice as thick at that point.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-08-07, 09:19 AM
As noted by the Skip Williams article above (yes, I know, but its the best "official" word we have) anything that would also impede your movement takes the 5 foot per move action and turns it into a 5 foot move as a full round action.

Makes sense... the fog really is twice as thick at that point.

In this case we have the same effect twice, so they overlap instead.

Skip Williams refers to other impediments to movement like difficult terrain or even a slow spell, not casting similar effects and allowing them to stack.

nagora
2007-08-07, 09:32 AM
The original 1st edition text says that the movement rate falls to 1' per 1" of movement. In other words, the resulting move rate was proportional to the original move rate, so 5 feet per movement action rather than a flat 5' per round would seem to be a closer approximation to the intent.

Tyger
2007-08-07, 09:33 AM
Well, what he actually says is that if the victim "encounters anything else that reduces its movement (such as...)". Acid Fog also reduces movement. Therefore the argument can be made that they do stack.

They are not the same spell, so no issues there. They both reduce movement, so no issues there. There is nothing to preclude this interpretation. I can see the counter argument, but either is equally valid.

While going to the first edition might be interesting, so much has changed, that its unlikely to even remotely match up. And if we did go with that interpretation, movement would be even slower. 1 inch per normal 1 foot of movement would reduce all movement by a 12th. So your average character with a move of 30 would be reduced to a move of 2.5 feet.

Dausuul
2007-08-07, 09:41 AM
As noted by the Skip Williams article above (yes, I know, but its the best "official" word we have) anything that would also impede your movement takes the 5 foot per move action and turns it into a 5 foot move as a full round action.

Makes sense... the fog really is twice as thick at that point.

Hmm.

By RAW (not considering Skip's article), there would be no further effect.
By Skip's article, you would be reduced to 5 feet as a full-round action.

I'd say it's a DM judgement call. I think I give the RAW spell text more weight here because Skip's article is not specifically about solid fog and only uses it as an example. So I'd incline toward the view that multiple solid fogs (or solid fog + acid fog, or whatever) do not stack, but I can see the logic for the opposite.

Citizen Joe
2007-08-07, 09:43 AM
Actually, grab up two wands. One of Solid fog and the other Gust of wind. In a bad situation, whip up the solid fog, then prepare. When you are ready, gust of wind will disipate it.

Ikkitosen
2007-08-07, 09:46 AM
Actually, grab up two wands. One of Solid fog and the other Gust of wind. In a bad situation, whip up the solid fog, then prepare. When you are ready, gust of wind will disipate it.

I don't think you generally need to get rid of it, since you want your enemies to trickle out of it piecemeal and be dealt with the same way :smallamused:

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-08-07, 09:55 AM
Well, what he actually says is that if the victim "encounters anything else that reduces its movement (such as...)". Acid Fog also reduces movement. Therefore the argument can be made that they do stack.

It is not something else that you encounter. It is the same effect twice.
Acid Fog:
Reduction of movement rate to 5 feet.
Solid Fog:
Reduction of movement rate to 5 feet.

Result:
Two overlapping reductions of movement rate to 5 feet.


They are not the same spell, so no issues there. They both reduce movement, so no issues there. There is nothing to preclude this interpretation. I can see the counter argument, but either is equally valid.


There is no cumulative reduction of movement. The second spell effect does not reduce your movement any further and thus dos not fit the suggestions made by Skip Williams.

Interpreting what Skip Williams writes to not be in accordance with RAW in this case seems unreasonable.

Tyger
2007-08-07, 10:01 AM
It is not something else that you encounter. It is the same effect twice.
Acid Fog:
Reduction of movement rate to 5 feet.
Solid Fog:
Reduction of movement rate to 5 feet.

Result:
Two overlapping reductions of movement rate to 5 feet.



There is no cumulative reduction of movement. The second spell effect does not reduce your movement any further and thus dos not fit the suggestions made by Skip Williams.

Interpreting what Skip Williams writes to not be in accordance with RAW in this case seems unreasonable.

Well, as I noted, and you did as well, both result in a reduction in movement rate. Both have the reduction listed as down to 5 feet. But then again, obstacles and terrain don't actually "reduce your movement" as suggested by Skip either, so his entire article is, once again, completely and totally useless. :)

It can certainly be argued though, that the two spells do indeed overlap. Otherwise, that would be like saying that Slow (which reduces movement) and Evards (which reduces movement) wouldn't overlap with Web, or with each other... making the terrain twice as hard to move over should, logically, reduce your movement. Making the air twice as thick (using two completely seperate spells) should slow you down...

RAW? Probably not. RAI? Maybe. Common sense? Depends on the individual, as always. :smallsmile:

Ikkitosen
2007-08-07, 10:03 AM
IMO they don't stack because Acid Fog directly references Solid Fog:


Acid fog creates a billowing mass of misty vapors similar to that produced by a solid fog spell.

Thus making them the same source effectively. Just like a ninja's AC bonus doesn't stack with a monk's because the ninja entry says it works like the monk's.

Sornjss Lichdom
2007-08-07, 10:05 AM
heres a simple solution, if you have other spells, other idea's, or just dont like the spell, dont prepare it. Get somthing that you think is worth having.

AtomicKitKat
2007-08-07, 10:09 AM
So what happens if you Shock Trooper or Knockback someone into it?:smallbiggrin:

MrNexx
2007-08-07, 10:14 AM
Only AoE spells can reliably penetrate the fog, unless you have some way of getting tremorsense or something. As I recall, virtually all the Batman spells require attack rolls.

As I said, Batman has a utility belt. Wands and scrolls are good for this. The save will be lower, but so what? The point is to be doing something.

Falrin
2007-08-07, 10:30 AM
Questions:

In combo with

grease? Slippy, but what about falling prone?

Web? Pretty stuck then I presume.

Wall of stone around it? Could you climb it?

Person_Man
2007-08-07, 10:35 AM
I'm firmly is the pro-Solid Fog group. No SR, no Save, and your enemy is slowed to a crawl.

The argument the "why don't you just kill them with X instead of Solid Fog" is only applicable if your enemy is weak. If your enemy is stong, then X probably won't kill them, unless X is a no SR no Save spell that gaurantees death. You'll probably need several rounds/spells to kill a strong enemy, and Solid Fog gives you those rounds.

Also, Solid Fog essentially adds a Knight to your party. The big benefit of playing a Knight is that it partitions your enemies, forcing most of them to bang their heads against a defensive brick wall while everyone else in the party focuses on killing the uneffected enemies one at a time. Solid Fog accomplishes the same tactic (divide and conquer), but it works against all enemies.

Arbitrarity
2007-08-07, 10:57 AM
Most combats at mid-high level seem to last a couple of rounds. Now, if you encounter two enemies at once, that's more difficult than two single combats, yes? (Not according to XP tables :smallsigh: ). Annyways. If you solid fog things, they are OUT of the fight for a few rounds, enough to mop up the others, maybe buff a little. Then you deal with the other group that got out of the fog, which should be a cakewalk.

It's also good for covering escape.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-08-07, 11:00 AM
Well, as I noted, and you did as well, both result in a reduction in movement rate. Both have the reduction listed as down to 5 feet. But then again, obstacles and terrain don't actually "reduce your movement" as suggested by Skip either, so his entire article is, once again, completely and totally useless. :)

As Ikkitosen notes, both does not list the spells result on movement, Acid Fog simply references Solid Fog.
A reduction of 5 feet to 5 feet is not a reduction.

Skip Williams is explaining the rules and if you are in difficult terrain the distance you can move is effectively reduced. There is no reason to criticize or draw extreme conclusions based on this article (not this part at least). Neither about Skippy or Solid Fog/Acid Fog.


It can certainly be argued though, that the two spells do indeed overlap. Otherwise, that would be like saying that Slow (which reduces movement) and Evards (which reduces movement) wouldn't overlap with Web, or with each other... making the terrain twice as hard to move over should, logically, reduce your movement. Making the air twice as thick (using two completely seperate spells) should slow you down...

RAW? Probably not. RAI? Maybe. Common sense? Depends on the individual, as always. :smallsmile:


This is not two completely separate spells in this respect, so even RAI or common sense arguments are not really very convincing, IMHO.

Indon
2007-08-07, 11:09 AM
Solid Fog seems like it'd be extremely useful against a Beholder.

Tyger
2007-08-07, 11:11 AM
Well, except for the fact that it is two completely seperate effects. Acid Fog does not state that it casts Solid Fog and then burns those inside. It states that the effects are "similar to" the Solid Fog vapours. That's descriptive fluff which tells you which effects the spell produces. So Acid Fog reduces yoru movement to 5 feet. Solid Fog also reduces your movement to 5 feet. If an environmental or terrain feature reduced your movement to 5 feet (say you're an encumbered halfling who is crossing difficult terrain, thus a reduction in your movement to 5 feet) would that also not stack? It seems to me that it would. Therefore there is little justification, other than the "similar effect" argument to state that they don't stack.

Granted, we're well in the realm of the shady interpretation and houserules here. But that's what makes it fun.

Eldritch_Ent
2007-08-07, 11:21 AM
In this case I'd agree that Solid Fod + Acid Fog would not stack, since DnD pretty much has a "Same bonuses overlap" rule...

I mean, it's like saying "I have a +2 Fog bonus to AC, and a +3 Fog Bonus to AC, so I get +5 AC, right?"

Tyger
2007-08-07, 11:24 AM
In this case I'd agree that Solid Fod + Acid Fog would not stack, since DnD pretty much has a "Same bonuses overlap" rule...

I mean, it's like saying "I have a +2 Fog bonus to AC, and a +3 Fog Bonus to AC, so I get +5 AC, right?"

But the implicit fact here is that its not the same penalty... that's like saying, "I am on fire because of the fireball, so burning hands can't hurt me."

No question that two Solid Fog spells don't stack. That's clearly stated in the rules. But two completely seperate magical effects, from two completely seperate spells... that's a whole other kettle of fish.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-08-07, 11:33 AM
Well, except for the fact that it is two completely seperate effects. Acid Fog does not state that it casts Solid Fog and then burns those inside. It states that the effects are "similar to" the Solid Fog vapours. That's descriptive fluff which tells you which effects the spell produces. So Acid Fog reduces yoru movement to 5 feet. Solid Fog also reduces your movement to 5 feet. If an environmental or terrain feature reduced your movement to 5 feet (say you're an encumbered halfling who is crossing difficult terrain, thus a reduction in your movement to 5 feet) would that also not stack? It seems to me that it would. Therefore there is little justification, other than the "similar effect" argument to state that they don't stack.

Granted, we're well in the realm of the shady interpretation and houserules here. But that's what makes it fun.

There is nothing to stack in this case. Both spells produce an effect that has the same result.
A better comparison would be if you were stunned or turned invisible twice. There is no added effect of the same thing happening again.

Your encumbered halfling is a different case altogether. Movement reducing or impeding effects from different sources cumulatively hampers your movement, no doubt, but applying the same effect twice overlaps.
However, your movement speed would not be reduced to 5 feet in that case.

Even if it would there is still the special exception that allows you to move 5 feet as a full round action no matter the difficulties or speed (assuming you are allowed to move at all of course).

If you want to house rule it differently that is your prerogative.

valadil
2007-08-07, 11:43 AM
I know this isn't the correct answer according to the RAW, given that acid fog requires you to look up solid fog I'd say that the movement impediment is the same type and therefore wouldn't stack, and even if it did it's a moot point since reducing to 5 twice is the same as reducing once.

A more annoying question would be whether this can actually increase someone's speed. If you've got a 0 movement (I don't know how you'd get there), I could see someone arguing that the spell sets it to 5 and they get movement. Yes this is excessively cheesey, but I've also seen players argue that you can use darkness as a light source because it provides "shadowy illumination."

Falrin
2007-08-07, 04:09 PM
Good Question:

Black Tentacles Vs Solid Fog.

What would you chose?

Arbitrarity
2007-08-07, 04:28 PM
Depends on level. When you get it, tentacles win fights, with +15 on grapple (compared to an 18 str fighter's +11), and deal damage, and immobilize, and have the same AOE. The issue is, they scale poorly, and the general effect of the fog wins out by being applicable to most every situation.

ByeLindgren
2007-08-07, 06:47 PM
I don't get these comparisons to Daze. Assuming the enemy doesn't have FoM* up, it takes at least two full round actions just to get out of the damn thing. Even if it's one-on-one in a completely open field, you are essentially buying yourself at least one round, no save, no SR by casting Solid Fog. Rounds are good things to have. Ask Solid Fog's friends Maze and Timestop. The only reasons not to prepare Solid Fog are if you're preparing Freezing Fog or Acid Fog instead, or if your limited spell slots are already dedicated to equally-wonderful spells like the AoE save-or-lose spells, or Enervation, or (at least at 7th) Black Tentacles.

*If he has Freedom of Movement up, you're pretty screwed when it comes to 4th level or lower battlefield control, anyway. Wall of Ice, maybe?

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-08-07, 07:53 PM
Good Question:

Black Tentacles Vs Solid Fog.

What would you chose?

I'll choose C) All of the Above!

Acid Fog and Solid Fog do not stack for purposes of movement and penalties. They are the same 'type', and so do not stack. For example, a +1 weapon would not become a +2 weapon just because someone cast Magic Weapon on it. Likewise Bull's Strength wouldn't be effective on someone with a Girdle of Giant Strength +4, because they are both enhancement bonuses. A Girdle of Giant strength is not a wizard casting Bull's Strength on you. Yet it is the same type, and so does not stack.

PaladinBoy
2007-08-07, 11:47 PM
Meh. I've never had much respect for the fog spells since my character got gust of wind as a spell-like ability.

And that was at 1st level. It's only gotten better since then.

Which doesn't mean that the fog spells are useless, but they aren't an all-situation win button. They have their uses, but you don't need them all the time, and they can be countered. Most of their uses, IMHO, center around preparing to fight the enemies you've stuck inside or splitting up a large group of enemies.

Tor the Fallen
2007-08-08, 12:52 AM
Solid Fog seems like it'd be extremely useful against a Beholder.

Holy gods, you are right! We're trying to break into a Beholder mining operation next session. I think Acid Fog/Solid Fog would be really sweet to spam, especially in conjunction with a Shape Spell.

Rachel Lorelei
2007-08-08, 01:45 AM
Holy gods, you are right! We're trying to break into a Beholder mining operation next session. I think Acid Fog/Solid Fog would be really sweet to spam, especially in conjunction with a Shape Spell.

Beholders have an antimagic eye.

They can negate the fog (which isn't Instantaneous!), and then shoot rays behind them.

Thurbane
2007-08-08, 02:11 AM
Or a wand - it's just the right level, and as you say isn't save-dependent.
...or a Beguiler... :smallfrown:

Ramza00
2007-08-08, 03:12 PM
some people don't get it. Solid fog isn't design for you to stop your enemy movement so you can fire missles at them. It is designed for two things.

Sepearting the enemies
Keeping them occupied giving your party and to a lesser extent you time to buff.


The second reason is what makes dragonfire adepts very useful as a 5th party member. They effectively get an infinite use of solid fog called chilling fog (take quicken spell like ability), and a slow breath that lasts 2 rounds if you fail the save or 1 round if you pass the save. Combine the breath with Entangling Exhalation from Races of the Dragon and now they are also entangled. Sure your character may not be a wizard or codzilla but it very has a purpose, buying your party time to lay the waste as codzilla/the wizard/ToB classes.