Can high Int mundanes LEARN like a Wizard/Archivist does?

[Mikemical]

Hear me out on this one.

To quote the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/sorcererWizard.htm#wizard): "To learn, prepare, or cast a spell, the wizard must have an Intelligence score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a wizard’s spell is 10 + the spell level + the wizard’s Intelligence modifier...

... At any time, a wizard can also add spells found in other wizards’ spellbooks to her own."

Could it be plausible that a high-Int character(for example, let's say a level 8 rogue with 16+ Int gets his hands on an Explosive Runes scroll) to learn to prepare and cast the spell, since he meets the criteria of having enough Int to cast up to level 3 spells? I vaguely recall the story of a rogue who spent his three-month downtime making 2 explosive papertags a day and then rigging them to explode a purple wurm from the inside in a chain recation as he got to safety using an amulet of the planes.

Or is there a feat that allows that kind of thing without being forced to take the necessary wizard levels?

[Jormengand]

Spellcasting is a class feature of the wizard. Just because it has an additional restriction doesn't mean that anyone who meets that criterion can do it.

[Mastikator]

There might be feats that grant spell like abilities but none that give spell slots AFAIK.
That said, I'm pretty sure wizards are mundane, it's just that they can perform supernatural actions. They aren't necessarily supernatural entities.

[Yuki Akuma]

Sure they can! They can go to school and become a 1st level Wizard.

[Anymage]

Since this is in the system agnostic area, a 5e D&D rogue could pick up the ritual caster feat if he really wanted some magic. A call of cthulhu investigator can learn magic so long as they're not too attached to their sanity.

3.5/pf, though? Spell slots are class features. I guess if you really had your heart set on it I'd let you fill out a spellbook. You wouldn't be able to do anything with it without the right slots, though.

[LibraryOgre]

Generally, no. There are some feats that provide spell-like abilities, and I wouldn't have a problem with a feat that allowed the use of cantrips or, as the feat chain progressed, even more spells, but I don't think there are any.

Because everything wizards have is special, while everything fighters get must be available to anyone willing to sink a lot of feats into it.

[KillianHawkeye]

To quote the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/sorcererWizard.htm#wizard): "To learn, prepare, or cast a spell, the wizard must have an Intelligence score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a wizard’s spell is 10 + the spell level + the wizard’s Intelligence modifier...

... At any time, a wizard can also add spells found in other wizards’ spellbooks to her own."

To quote your own quote, you still need to be a Wizard to do this.

[gkathellar]

No, because even if that were a valid RAW reading (it's not), it'd still be so obviously and blatantly ridiculous that no one would care.

[icefractal]

Not by the existing rules. I think it'd be fine as homebrew though:

Arcane Hobbyist
You're not a full-fledged Wizard, but you have learned a bit of magic.
Prerequisite: Knowledge (arcana) 6 ranks, Int 11+
Benefit: You have an arcane CL equal to your character level - 2, and a single spell slot equal to CL/2 rounded up (one below what a Wizard of your level would get), plus bonus slots from a high Intelligence (for that single spell level) as normal. Like a Wizard, you need a high enough Int to cast a spell.
You don't have a spellbook, but you can prepare your spell slots from scrolls (this does not exhaust the scrolls). Casting is slower for you than a full-fledged Wizard: spells that take less than 1 round to cast take 1 round, other spells take twice as long as normal.

Probably needs some wording fixes, but that seems about right.

[DeTess]

Not by the existing rules. I think it'd be fine as homebrew though:

Arcane Hobbyist
You're not a full-fledged Wizard, but you have learned a bit of magic.
Prerequisite: Knowledge (arcana) 6 ranks, Int 11+
Benefit: You have an arcane CL equal to your character level - 2, and a single spell slot equal to CL/2 rounded up (one below what a Wizard of your level would get), plus bonus slots from a high Intelligence (for that single spell level) as normal. Like a Wizard, you need a high enough Int to cast a spell.
You don't have a spellbook, but you can prepare your spell slots from scrolls (this does not exhaust the scrolls). Casting is slower for you than a full-fledged Wizard: spells that take less than 1 round to cast take 1 round, other spells take twice as long as normal.

Probably needs some wording fixes, but that seems about right.

Looks good, though I'd either change the CL, or change the wording for the spell slot so that this feat will never give a 9th level spell slot (I'd cap it at 4 or 5). Maybe the Magic initiate feat from 5e can be ported over? It gives a single level 1 spell known with 1 casting per day, and 2 level 0 spells (in this case I'd given 2-4 level 0 spell slots. In 5e level 0 spells are unlimited use).

[The Viscount]

The closest thing I can think of is the magical training feat, which allows you to cast 3 0th level spells, CL 1 assuming no spellcasting classes. With the right optimization this can be turned into some other things, but this is probably the best you'll find without a lot of finagling.

[Nifft]

A Rogue could surely learn to Use a Magic scroll or other Device, and thereby cast the spell.

[JeenLeen]

Agreeing with the others that nothing by RAW, but it seems like something reasonable to allow. Int is pretty useless beyond skill points and Int-based spellcasters.
I could actually see a feat like this even being useful for other spellcasters with good Int, letting them pick up a wizard spell or two.


A Rogue could surely learn to Use a Magic scroll or other Device, and thereby cast the spell.

On that note, I could also see allowing a rogue (or other PC) to use Int as their Use Magic Device ability score instead of Cha, with the intent of it being an intellectual understanding akin to what a wizard has instead of whatever the fluff of Use Magic Device is. At least allowing it for scrolls, wands, and similar things.

Maybe add on a feat that the person can have a 'spellbook' of a handful of scrolls (perhaps up to character level/2 levels worth of spells, with cantrips counting as .5 spell levels) which they can cast without exhausting the scroll, with X spell slots per day. I could see making the scrolls fixed when you pick the feat (basically you take scrolls you have and compile them together to make a spellbook), but you can trade out some 'scrolls used' like a sorcerer can trade spells known, during level up.

Eh... that sounds complicated. Letting them use Int for Use Magic Device is probably the easiest way, or one of the feats mentioned in an earlier post.

[Florian]

Actually, the way that wizardly casting works, by leaning instead of skill or inborn talent, it would make sense that people can learn to cast spells.

[DeTess]

Actually, the way that wizardly casting works, by leaning instead of skill or inborn talent, it would make sense that people can learn to cast spells.

You are right, about this, and there's a mechanic for it. It's called multiclassing into Wizard. A rogues spends most of his time learning new roguelike tricks, which is the reason he gets more levels in rogue. A fighter learns more fighting, resulting in leveling up as a fighter. Someone who spends a lot of time learning to cast spells, is going to level up as a wizard.

For balance reasons, it's not possible to get class features from another class without spending something, be they experience for multiclassing or feats. Otherwise all the optimizers would just play high-int fighters that learn enough spells to be equivalent to a same-level wizard (okay, they probably would play warblade's, because that synergizes nice with having a high int, but you get my point).

[Zanos]

Actually, the way that wizardly casting works, by leaning instead of skill or inborn talent, it would make sense that people can learn to cast spells.
Sure, and it's by-


You are right, about this, and there's a mechanic for it. It's called multiclassing into Wizard.
Yeah, that.

[Psyren]

Sure, just like anyone can technically learn to be an astrophysicist or a neurosurgeon. But few people do in practice because our brains are just wired differently, even for otherwise intelligent people.

[Lvl 2 Expert]

See it as a learning progression, a skill tree if you will. A high level spell is not some isolated trick. To properly use the polymorph spell you must have covered the basic theory of magic in general, including the lessons on energy guidance and energy transitions, as well as the basic theory of transmutation wizardry, the three principles of change and the first and second law of equal matter displacement, which transmutation magic subverts through several different yet related means. Then you need experience. This isn't point and shoot, that's what wands are for. The timing of your heart rhythm to resonate with the building energy simply requires lots of practice. Trying to learn this using a 4th level spell is suicide. You wouldn't go anywhere but down the drain as a puddle.

I don't know what you (plan) to do for a living, but I will bet you a crate of beer I can't just take one day of training and do your job as well as you do it, and you can't just switch to mine. Being a wizard is like being trained in underwater welding, crime scene investigation or organizing birthday parties for people with dementia. You need some out of the ordinary skills before the real learning even starts. Not all of those things are particularly difficult, but they are specialized.

But that's just lore wise justification, and we both know it. The real reason is that spells are what a wizard is. It's their one class feature worth a damn, so no, you do not get more spells than a wizard does simply by having a high intelligence and reading a book. Because that would be a broken ability. I'm all for all sorts of experiments. A world where everybody can learn a cantrip at level 3? Count me in. Homebrewing eldritch knight-like archetypes so other classes can get in on the casting action? Why not. A feat that gives you a single spell of a certain level or a factotum-like way of casting? I'd want to see it for balance reasons, but no reason to shoot it down out of nowhere. But money for nothing and chicks for free, nah, don't think so.

[Dunsparce]

The magic system used in Slayers d20(A 3rd party d20 Book based around the Anime adaption of the Slayers light novel series) can let anyone with sufficiently high enough Intelligence use a small number of low-end spells, regardless of class, since the setting itself is extremely high-magic. Though it means using a very different Magic system based on at-will spells where you have to beat a DC check and they deal non-lethal damage to the user rather than Spell slots/spells per day and spell levels

Perhaps figuring out a way to make that translate the Vancian Casting system would do if that's not your type of thing, which might take a little work.

[Dr_Dinosaur]

They can in Spheres of Power thanks to the Magical Training feats

[prototype00]

Related question, could a completely mundane scribe copy out the spells in a spell book? Completely unaware of what it is they are copying?

[Thurbane]

A mundane can take the Magical Training feat, as mentioned.

They can also use Incantations: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/incantations.htm

...they will need to hit fairly high Knowledge (arcana) and other checks, though.

[Jay R]

The crucial point is that the way you're reading rules will lead to many false conclusions. If it says a wizard of INT X can do something, that gives two requirements - wizard, and INT X.

You cannot leave out part of the rule. It says "wizard".

[DrKerosene]

The closest thing I can think of is the magical training feat, which allows you to cast 3 0th level spells, CL 1 assuming no spellcasting classes. With the right optimization this can be turned into some other things, but this is probably the best you'll find without a lot of finagling.
It specifically says it gives you a Spellbook and that you cast like a Wizard does.

Wizards can copy spells of a higher level, assuming they succeed on the necessary checks. They just have to wait for the spell slots. I don't see why the feat wouldn't allow that ability too.

Seeing as Craft(alchemy) requires some kind of magic, I think you can't truely be "mundane" and copying spells.


I've been wanting to play a character who goes into the Chameleon PrC with this feat (as well as Apprentice(spellcaster) and Practiced Spellcaster), since you need a Spellbook if you want to pretend to be a Wizard. Bit of a gold sink until you can actually cast.

[Necroticplague]

Related question, could a completely mundane scribe copy out the spells in a spell book? Completely unaware of what it is they are copying?

No. What makes you think they could?

[The Viscount]

It specifically says it gives you a Spellbook and that you cast like a Wizard does.

Wizards can copy spells of a higher level, assuming they succeed on the necessary checks. They just have to wait for the spell slots. I don't see why the feat wouldn't allow that ability too.

Seeing as Craft(alchemy) requires some kind of magic, I think you can't truely be "mundane" and copying spells.


I've been wanting to play a character who goes into the Chameleon PrC with this feat (as well as Apprentice(spellcaster) and Practiced Spellcaster), since you need a Spellbook if you want to pretend to be a Wizard. Bit of a gold sink until you can actually cast.

Oh once you had the spellslots you probably could copy down more spells and then use them, it's just that getting more slots isn't exactly easy. Increasing Int only gets you so far. Dragon Disciple can only add to levels you already are capable of casting, and the same goes for Eunuch Warlock.

[Florian]

Sure, just like anyone can technically learn to be an astrophysicist or a neurosurgeon. But few people do in practice because our brains are just wired differently, even for otherwise intelligent people.

Nah, just pointing out a dysfunction between fluff and rules.

Magic in D&D, especially arcane magic, has no mystery nor style to it and is rather treated like a very stable natural science (*). Following the fluff and creating rules based on it, we should actually remove or heavily modify most of the classes, especially sorcerer and wizard, by, for example, using a feat chain "Magical Capacity" to grant access to the blocks of 1-4, 5-6 and 7-9 level casting.
That would be more in-line with how arcane magic should actually be a learnable science.

(*) Contrast to L5R blood magic, Warhammer magic/psi, PF occult rituals.

[Lvl 2 Expert]

Nah, just pointing out a dysfunction between fluff and rules.

Magic in D&D, especially arcane magic, has no mystery nor style to it and is rather treated like a very stable natural science (*). Following the fluff and creating rules based on it, we should actually remove or heavily modify most of the classes, especially sorcerer and wizard, by, for example, using a feat chain "Magical Capacity" to grant access to the blocks of 1-4, 5-6 and 7-9 level casting.
That would be more in-line with how arcane magic should actually be a learnable science.

(*) Contrast to L5R blood magic, Warhammer magic/psi, PF occult rituals.

Because it would make sense if in a modern day game your hacker character could learn to do open heart surgery without knowing the basics of medicine? Hey, he has the intelligence score...

Something being learnable does not mean there's not a right order to learn things in, or that learning things can't be difficult or take a lot of time. That investment, the specialization of a doctor that will eventually become an open heart surgeon, that's what D&D models as classes.

Are there paths in life that will let you learn medical procedures without studying medicine and working in a hospital? Probably, if you don't practicing without a license. It can be a secondary skillset, which is moddeled with not just multiclassing but archetypes and such as well. Maybe you learned some medical skills by doing, alone in the wilderniss, fighting for your life. But just picking up open heart surgery and only open heart surgery, because you needed a challenge, is that really a common thing?

[Florian]

That´s hyperbole. There´s a huge span between being able to use a first aid kit and being an able heart surgeon. Same span between casting a simple light spell and a full blown heal.
That argument is akin to disallowing non-divine casters to get the heal skill or chose skill focus: heal because healing is tied to cleric training.

[Zanos]

Nah, just pointing out a dysfunction between fluff and rules.

Magic in D&D, especially arcane magic, has no mystery nor style to it and is rather treated like a very stable natural science (*). Following the fluff and creating rules based on it, we should actually remove or heavily modify most of the classes, especially sorcerer and wizard, by, for example, using a feat chain "Magical Capacity" to grant access to the blocks of 1-4, 5-6 and 7-9 level casting.
That would be more in-line with how arcane magic should actually be a learnable science.

(*) Contrast to L5R blood magic, Warhammer magic/psi, PF occult rituals.
Why? Every other class that gains abilities by learning them is a class and not a feat series.

[Florian]

Why? Every other class that gains abilities by learning them is a class and not a feat series.

D&D, especially the d20 version(s), is extremely bad at class design as they mix up "inborn" and "learned" abilities on a frequent basis. Compare the classes that rely on external rules element as their primary class feature to those with actual class features tied to that class exclusively.
This becomes more pronounced when rules come up that try to integrate this by treating non-class levels as 1/2 class levels for purpose of calculating effects, with the best example being Initiator classes.

[Zanos]

D&D, especially the d20 version(s), is extremely bad at class design as they mix up "inborn" and "learned" abilities on a frequent basis.
That isn't bad design. Class abilities don't have to all spring from the same source.


Compare the classes that rely on external rules element as their primary class feature to those with actual class features tied to that class exclusively.
Why? Are subsystems bad now?


This becomes more pronounced when rules come up that try to integrate this by treating non-class levels as 1/2 class levels for purpose of calculating effects, with the best example being Initiator classes.
How does that make it more pronounced?

[Lvl 2 Expert]

That´s hyperbole. There´s a huge span between being able to use a first aid kit and being an able heart surgeon. Same span between casting a simple light spell and a full blown heal.
That argument is akin to disallowing non-divine casters to get the heal skill or chose skill focus: heal because healing is tied to cleric training.

What it is is a reaction to the idea of this topic. The argument is "my rogue can learn 8th level spells because she has 18 intelligence". I think open heart surgery is if anything too weak an analogy for that. Because open heart surgery does not let you alter the fundaments of the universe.

Even within the context of D&D: A wizard does not just get up one day and decide "I can walk a tightrope now". That's the balance skill, and you usually learn to walk a wobbly bridge or something way before you walk a tightrope. There is no way in the game to only grab that tightrope. And I know D&D likes giving spells all sorts of advantages over skills, but there has to be a limit somewhere. The premise of randomly learning single spells as if they are some sort of limited contained trick for which no background knowledge or skill is required seems weird to me, because it is weird. Just like it's weird to be able to do open heart surgery one day because you were a really smart lawyer with time for some evening classes. The hospital doesn't care how many cases you won, you're starting in premed.

As I said, I'm absolutely not against rules that allow for some form of magic on characters that are not specialist single minded casters. I think it would be fun. But the ability to just learn any spell, unlimited, with probably unlimited spells per day as well because the player handbook doesn't say a rogue has limited spell slot, that's not my cup of tea.

[Jay R]

This difficulty is a consequence of 3e's approach of making classes something you can switch easily.

Originally they were classes, which is to say entire life-styles. Changing from Fighter to Magic-User was as difficult and rare as changing from serf to townsman, or yeoman to noble. The assumption was that to learn to do a single cantrip took years of careful study, and that the wizard and the fighter were as different as a full-time surgeon and a full-time football player today.

The question being asked would not have come up in the earlier versions. But since a Fighter can become a Wizard instantly, just as easily as he could take another level of Fighter, then it's reasonable to at least ask the question.

[The answer is still NO. If it requires being a wizard and high INT, then it cannot be done with just high INT. But it's a reasonable question to ask, under this set of rules.]

[Calthropstu]

This difficulty is a consequence of 3e's approach of making classes something you can switch easily.

Originally they were classes, which is to say entire life-styles. Changing from Fighter to Magic-User was as difficult and rare as changing from serf to townsman, or yeoman to noble. The assumption was that to learn to do a single cantrip took years of careful study, and that the wizard and the fighter were as different as a full-time surgeon and a full-time football player today.

The question being asked would not have come up in the earlier versions. But since a Fighter can become a Wizard instantly, just as easily as he could take another level of Fighter, then it's reasonable to at least ask the question.

[The answer is still NO. If it requires being a wizard and high INT, then it cannot be done with just high INT. But it's a reasonable question to ask, under this set of rules.]

I have to agree here to an extent. Years of training to become a wizard, cleric, fighter et al should be adhered to. But what about spontaneous classes that just... are. I see no reason a fighter can't suddenly learn he has eldritch energies in his blood.

[Necroticplague]

I have to agree here to an extent. Years of training to become a wizard, cleric, fighter et al should be adhered to. But what about spontaneous classes that just... are. I see no reason a fighter can't suddenly learn he has eldritch energies in his blood.

Being a sorceror isn't just 'you got innate magic son, now go out there'. It still requires a whole crap-ton of training. After all, they don't get any component-ignoring abilities. So, at a very minimum, they still have to spend a bunch of time fiddling around, trying to figure out how to actually release the spark inside them in a useful way. Just like how having good genes for swimming doesn't mean jack unless you also put in the hours of practice, having the spark inside you is pointless unless you practice to release it.

[Calthropstu]

Being a sorceror isn't just 'you got innate magic son, now go out there'. It still requires a whole crap-ton of training. After all, they don't get any component-ignoring abilities. So, at a very minimum, they still have to spend a bunch of time fiddling around, trying to figure out how to actually release the spark inside them in a useful way. Just like how having good genes for swimming doesn't mean jack unless you also put in the hours of practice, having the spark inside you is pointless unless you practice to release it.

They DO get component ignoring abilities in pf... all sorcerers get eschew materials at 1st level as a bonus feat.
And while I agree it COULD work that way, it doesn't necessarily HAVE to.
"You drop your sword to the ground due to the goblin's disarm attack. As the goblin moves in for the final blow you instinctively thrust out your arm in a move to grab the sword as it strikes... and as you do so, a wave of fire erupts from your fingertips engulfing the now shrieking goblin. Stunned and shocked, you look at your hand speechless. That was a spell, you just cast a spell!"
I could totally see it working that way as well.

[logic_error]

The discussion is a direct result of ignoring underlying RP in the rules. Rules can not be used to interpret actual scenarios in most cases. The interpretation of what really happens is in the simulation.

In this case a rogue with 18 int has not accessed his full magical potential as a wizard because in addition to being smart the wizard also trained in the art of casting spells.

[Psyren]

Nah, just pointing out a dysfunction between fluff and rules.

Magic in D&D, especially arcane magic, has no mystery nor style to it and is rather treated like a very stable natural science (*). Following the fluff and creating rules based on it, we should actually remove or heavily modify most of the classes, especially sorcerer and wizard, by, for example, using a feat chain "Magical Capacity" to grant access to the blocks of 1-4, 5-6 and 7-9 level casting.
That would be more in-line with how arcane magic should actually be a learnable science.

By that logic you could do away with classes entirely. After all, anybody can be pretty pious, so clerics and druids should be a feat chain too. And I'm not saying classless systems are bad, but they're not D&D.

It's a class because that best represents the opportunity cost of so thoroughly dedicating yourself to that avenue of study. You focus on it to the point that it establishes other things about you - from your hit die, to your skill list, to the unique features you get that other classes don't. A feat chain would not capture that.

[Necroticplague]

I personally wouldn't be opposed to more subsystems having at the 'dabbler' feats and mechanics that many the latter subsystems seemed to have. Shape Soulmeld, Martial Study, Bind Vestige, and co. Spellcasting and Psionics already have Wild Talent and Magical Training, but they suffer from not scaling into uselessness.

[Florian]

By that logic you could do away with classes entirely. After all, anybody can be pretty pious, so clerics and druids should be a feat chain too. And I'm not saying classless systems are bad, but they're not D&D.

It's a class because that best represents the opportunity cost of so thoroughly dedicating yourself to that avenue of study. You focus on it to the point that it establishes other things about you - from your hit die, to your skill list, to the unique features you get that other classes don't. A feat chain would not capture that.

That´s not necessarily the logical conclusion to it.

I´m playing a local game that´s centered around the concept of "magic is common and learn-able" and basically has three class frameworks: Weapon focus - Balanced - Magic focused. In D&D terms, this´ll be "Full BAB, d10 and easy access to 1-4", "Medium BAB, d8 and easy access to 1-6" and "Low BAB, d6 and easy access to 1-9".

During chargen, you pick and apply three templates: Race, Culture and learned Profession.

Unlike baseline D&D, Race and Culture have a more involved impact than just starting attributes and some specials and function more like archetypes as used in PF. Same for culture.

[logic_error]

I am hearing this "magic is science" a lot. I believe this is resulting from confusing the GAME mechanics with how magic operates in the lore. Magic is a chaotic energy and the spells used by wizards represent a *very* small fraction of what can be really accomplished from it. It is a safe formulaic distillation of the powerful force that is arcane energy. This mostly exists for players to know what they can do, as D&D is a formulaic game (which is a good thing in my book).