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JNAProductions
2017-07-11, 04:50 PM
HIT POINTS
Hit Dice: d6
Hit Points at 1st Level: 6+Constitution Modifier
Hit Points at Higher Levels: 1d6 (4)+Constitution Modifier

PROFICIENCIES
Armor: None
Weapons: All simple
Tools: Any one artisan tool

Saving Throws: Intelligence or Charisma, Wisdom
Skills: Any two mental skills

EQUIPMENT
You start with the following equipment, in addition to the equipment granted by your background:
-A scholar's or diplomat's pack
-Any two simple weapons (and 20 pieces of ammo, if appropriate)

Full Caster




—Spell Slots per Spell Level I—
—Spell Slots per Spell Level II—
—Spell Slots per Spell Level III—


Level
Proficiency Bonus
Features
Cantrips
Known
1st
2nd
3rd
4th
5th
6th
7th
8th
9th
1st
2nd
3rd
4th
5th
6th
1st
2nd
3rd
4th


1st
+2
Spellcasting, Ritual Casting
3
2
—
—
—
—
—
—
—
—
—
—
—
—
—
—
—
—
—
—


2nd
+2
Second Casting
4
2
—
—
—
—
—
—
—
—
1
—
—
—
—
—
—
—
—
—


3rd
+2
Third Casting, Archetype
5
2
2
—
—
—
—
—
—
—
1
—
—
—
—
—
1
—
—
—


4th
+2
Ability Score Improvement
5
3
2
—
—
—
—
—
—
—
2
—
—
—
—
—
1
—
—
—


5th
+3
Combined Casting
5
3
2
—
—
—
—
—
—
—
2
—
—
—
—
—
1
—
—
—


6th
+3
Archetype Feature
6
4
3
2
—
—
—
—
—
—
3
1
—
—
—
—
1
—
—
—


7th
+3
Might Of Magic
6
4
3
2
—
—
—
—
—
—
3
1
—
—
—
—
2
1
—
—


8th
+3
Ability Score Improvement
7
4
3
3
—
—
—
—
—
—
3
1
—
—
—
—
2
1
—
—


9th
+4
Archetype Feature
7
4
3
3
2
—
—
—
—
—
4
2
—
—
—
—
2
1
—
—


10th
+4
—
7
4
3
3
2
—
—
—
—
—
4
2
1
—
—
—
2
1
—
—


11th
+4
Combined Magic II
8
4
3
3
2
—
—
—
—
—
4
3
1
—
—
—
3
2
1
—


12th
+4
Ability Score Improvement
8
4
3
3
3
1
—
—
—
—
4
3
1
—
—
—
3
2
1
—


13th
+5
Archetype Feature
8
4
3
3
3
1
—
—
—
—
4
3
2
—
—
—
3
2
1
—


14th
+5
Might Of Magic II
9
4
3
3
3
1
—
—
—
—
4
4
2
1
—
—
3
2
1
—


15th
+5
—
9
4
3
3
3
2
1
—
—
—
4
4
2
1
—
—
4
3
2
1


16th
+5
Ability Score Improvement
9
4
3
3
3
2
1
—
—
—
4
4
3
1
—
—
4
3
2
1


17th
+6
Archetype Feature
9
4
3
3
3
2
1
1
—
—
4
4
3
2
—
—
4
3
2
1


18th
+6
Signature Spells
10
4
3
3
3
3
1
1
1
—
4
4
3
2
1
—
4
3
2
1


19th
+6
Ability Score Improvement
10
4
3
3
3
3
2
1
1
—
4
4
3
2
1
—
4
4
3
2


20th
+6
Spell Mastery
10
4
3
3
3
3
2
1
1
1
4
4
3
3
2
1
4
4
3
2



Spellcasting-At level 1, you gain casting from any one full caster list. You start with four spells known, and learn two more on each level up. Your spellcasting modifier is your choice of Int, Wis, or Cha.

Ritual Casting-At level 1, you gain ritual casting.

Second Casting-At level 2, you gain a second pool of casting from any other full caster list. You start with three spells known, and learn two more on each level up. Your spellcasting modifier is your choice of Int, Wis, or Cha, but cannot be one already chosen.

Third Casting-At level 3, you gain a third pool of casting from any other full caster list. You start with two spells known, and learn two more on each level up. Your spellcasting modifier is your third mental stat, the one not yet chosen.

Archetype-At level 3, you also gain your archetype. Select Gish or True Caster. You gain further features at levels 6, 9, 13, and 17.

Ability Score Improvement-At the usual levels.

Combined Casting-At level 5, you may draw on other pools to fuel your spells. You may combine two slots of level X to cast a spell you know of level X+1.

Might Of Magic-At level 7, your magic grows ever stronger. You deal extra damage on any harmful spell equal to your proficiency bonus, and additional healing on beneficial spells the same (excepting positive cantrips). (Note that this applies to any beneficial or harmful spell-Hold Monster, for instance, would deal your proficiency modifier in damage (most likely psychic) even though it doesn't already deal damage, and Bless would likewise heal for your proficiency bonus on the initial casting for all affected.)

Combined Magic II-At level 11, you may now combine three slots of level X to cast a spell of level X+2.

Might Of Magic II-At level 15, you gain advantage on all saves against magic.

Signature Spells-At level 18, select any one spell of 3rd level or lower from each spell pool. You may cast these once per short rest without expending a spell slot, though only at their lowest level.

Spell Mastery-At level 20, select any three spells of 2nd level or lower from your first pool, any two of 2nd level or lower from your second pool, and and any one 1st level spell from your third pool. You may cast these at-will at their lowest level without expending a slot.

Archetypes

Gish

War Magic-At level 3, you gain the ability to weave spell and sword together. Whenever you cast a cantrip, you may make a single attack as a bonus action.

Extra Attack-At level 6.

Magical Fortitude-At level 9, you gain mystical protections throughout your body. Gain +1 HP per level in this class.

Magical Defenses-At level 13, you gain further protections. Your AC now may equal 11+your Dexterity modifier+your first pool's spellcasting modifier.

Improved War Magic-At level 17, you may now make a single attack as a bonus action after casting any spell.

True Caster

Spellcasting Recovery-At level 3, you gain a pool of extra slots equal to half your Theurge levels (rounded up) that recharges on a long rest. You may use this pool to replace spells from any pool during a short rest, though no spell created in this manner may be over 5th level.

Powerful Casting-At level 6, once per short rest, you may impose disadvantage on the first save made against one of your spells as a bonus action.

Invigorated By Magic-At level 9, whenever you cast a spell, you gain temporary hit points equal to the spell level. (Cantrips give 1 THP.)

One With Magic-At level 13, you may as a reaction, once per short rest, upon saving against a spell or magical effect, attempt to use your action to cast that spell or effect on your next turn. If you do not immediately cast it on your next turn, the spell or effect is lost, but you regain your use of this ability.

Sorcerer Supreme-At level 17, whenever you cast a spell and roll damage dice or healing dice, any maximum rolls explode, allowing you to roll another die of the same type. These dice may further explode.



So, I'd REALLY like to hear people's thoughts on this class.

In addition, how would you handle multiclassing with this thing?

Flashy
2017-07-13, 01:39 AM
So, I'd REALLY like to hear people's thoughts on this class.



I've been thinking about this all day and I'm pretty sure I've finally settled on "it's a little too much starting around 8th or 9th level."

I mean, when you break it down there are basically two fundamental questions here. How much are a few high level slots really worth compared to a bunch of low level slots, and how much is spellcasting worth compared to having actual class features? In the early levels you're drawing a lot of you character's power from the ability to do that big flashy thing that your newest spell level lets you do. Fireball is transformative, invisibility is transformative, banishment is transformative, etc. But in my experience* it becomes a lot harder to justify how hard the big new thing hits when it turns into basically a 1/day power right around 6th level spell slots. Basically, I think that a bunch of 3rd and 4th level spell slots outweigh one 5th level spell slot, but I'm not convinced that a bunch of 1st level spell slots outweigh a 3rd level spell slot.

I honestly couldn't find a way to assess my feelings about not really having any class features. In the end, I think it's a realistic trade off. In the base game an illusionist wizard (Lots of spell slots and some class features) basically isn't all that much more powerful than an arcane trickster (some spell slots and lots of class features). It should make sense that you can trade out NO class features of some amount of additional spell slots.


Personally I think another interesting take on this would be the same slightly delayed main class casting, a couple of actual class features, and then 1/3rd casting from a single different class awarded through the subclass.

This is based pretty heavily on having played a knowledge cleric through to 9th level, not liked the look of progressing further in cleric, and ditched out for a multiclass into v2 mystic. Basically, I wasn't convinced getting things like Harm every other level made any sense at all in a pretty investigation heavy campaign. I traded a lot of casting flexibility for a few really big guns once or twice a day. People might have a different opinion if they're not pre-disposed to thinking about this through the lens of the Cleric's ****ty 5th+ level spell list.


In addition, how would you handle multiclassing with this thing?

The cheap cop-out answer is to just track the spell progressions of the two classes separately (like warlocks).

Beyond that probably the easiest way is to treat only the main class casting as awarding spellcasting levels and just assume the others are class features.

JNAProductions
2017-07-13, 11:29 AM
I'd like to keep the triple casting-how would you rejigger the class to maintain that while making it balanced?

I think the cop-out HAS to be the solution, since even its main casting is different. It's delayed.

And thank you for your time!

Arrgg67
2018-04-14, 09:17 PM
Any new progress on this class? Perhaps a post elsewhere?

VictoriousLoL
2018-04-15, 06:26 PM
Allowing that many pools of casting by level 3 is definitely a little excessive. I'd space it out more between levels.

Protato
2018-04-16, 09:23 AM
Instead of full lists, I'd make it so there's a blend of Wizard/Sorcerer spells and Cleric/Paladin spells on the list, maybe a bit of Druid too. Also, I'd say you have Int or Wis as a casting stat but not your choice of the three mental scores. Same with saving throws. While it probably wouldn't BREAK things it's kind of unprecedented in 5e to be able to choose. I'd give other saves as a class feature though.

JNAProductions
2018-04-19, 12:40 PM
Instead of full lists, I'd make it so there's a blend of Wizard/Sorcerer spells and Cleric/Paladin spells on the list, maybe a bit of Druid too. Also, I'd say you have Int or Wis as a casting stat but not your choice of the three mental scores. Same with saving throws. While it probably wouldn't BREAK things it's kind of unprecedented in 5e to be able to choose. I'd give other saves as a class feature though.

So what would the third casting stat be? I do not want to assign a physical stat to casting, nor do I want you to be able to stack two casting stats together.

Argothair
2018-04-19, 02:47 PM
Maybe I'm way off base here, but isn't this class wildly overpowered compared to RAW Wizards or Clerics or Sorcerers? It seems like you've got more spell slots (at most levels), more flexibility (at all levels), and much better class features (at all levels) without any real drawbacks other than needing several high ability scores. I like the overall character concept, and I think it could be balanced with a little work, but as written, I think your Theurge class makes Wizards and Clerics 100% obsolete, and makes Sorcerers and Druids pretty sub-optimal or niche choices.


A Level 6 Wizard has:
4 Level 1 slots
3 Level 2 slots
3 Level 3 slots

A Level 6 Theurge has:
8 Level 1 slots
4 Level 2 slots
2 Level 3 slots

The Theurge can turn two Level 2 slots into a Level 3 spell and 2 Level 1 slots into a Level 2 spell to get:
6 Level 1 slots
3 Level 2 slots
3 Level 3 slots

Which is strictly better than the Wizard. Instead of 4-3-3 now you have 6-3-3. Plus you have more flexibility.

Similarly, a Level 12 Wizard has
4-3-3-3-2-1.

A Level 12 Theurge has
4-3-3-3-1 +
4-3-1 +
2-1 =

10-7-4-3-1-0.

Turn six Level 1s into two Level 3s, three Level 2s into one Level 4, three Level 3s into one Level 5s, and three Level 4s into one Level 6 and you get:
4-4-3-1-2-1

That's very slightly worse than the Wizard in raw power, but much more flexible.

At Level 20, the Theurge gets:
4-3-3-3-3-2-1-1-1 +
4-4-3-3-2-1 +
4-4-3-2 =
12-11-9-8-5-3-1-1-1.

That's much, much stronger than the Wizard's
4 - 3-3-3-3-2-2-1-1.

You can trade two Level 5's for a Level 6 slot, trade two Level 6's for a Level 7 slot, and wind up with:
12-11-9-8-3-2-2-1-1.

Again, strictly better than the Wizard. You can match the Wizard spell for spell, and still have an extra 29 spells per day left over.
The Wizard's signature spells always require burning a resource that only replenishes after a short rest. The Theurge gets at-will spells that don't burn any resources and can be used literally every round with no penalty.

The Wizard's school features amount to nifty parlor tricks -- an extra Shield here or there; an extra short-range Teleport here or there. Some of the school features are really only for roleplaying flavor, e.g., minor conjuration: summon an inanimate object up to 10 feet away that glows faintly and doesn't weigh much.

By contrast, the Theurge is getting these hugely powerful, combat-relevant bonuses that apply to almost every situation. Might of Magic? Great, now every single spell I cast that's intended to help or harm anyone (so, like, 90% of your spells) will dish out healing or damage. Might of Magic II? Wow, advantage on every single magical saving throw. This is huge. This is a *lot* more powerful than turning undead, or being able to sculpt a spell around an ally.

Same thing with recovery -- the Wizard's Arcane Recovery and the Druid's Natural Recovery is activated on a short rest, but it still only works once per long rest. The Theurge's Spellcasting Recovery works every time you take a short rest, which is just a broken level of power.

Level 6 Theurge's Extra Attack is much more powerful than the comparable Level 6 Druid's Primal Strike, which simply makes weapon attacks magical for purposes of overcoming damage resistance.

JNAProductions
2018-04-19, 03:06 PM
Recovery was not worded well-it's meant to operate in the same way as the other Recovery features.

I'll address the other complaints in a couple hours, I've got to go somewhere.