New to AD&D, and what books and rule quirks should I keep in mind?

[Puh Laden]

So as far as my experience with D&D goes, I mostly DM 5e and like it a lot, also DM'd a little Pathfinder and I like that for what it is but it's kind of a pain to DM without tons of experience with it. I've always been really interested in the history of D&D and especially the old AD&D modules, and while I've ran some of them in 5e, I've been drawn to trying out the old-school.

I've heard the 2e books are better organized and have less nudity, so I decided to focus on 2e for the core rules at least. I recently bought the PHB, but I wonder which books I should get next? Do I really need the DMG? I of course plan on getting the MM. I also plan on getting Complete Fighter and Complete Humanoid. What adventures should I get? I already have G1-3, D1-3, "Ravenloft," "Barrier Peaks," and "White Plume Mountain."

Also what rule quirks should I watch out for? Baldur's Gate has me straightened out on THAC0 but what about speed factor?

[BigBadHarve]

So as far as my experience with D&D goes, I mostly DM 5e and like it a lot, also DM'd a little Pathfinder and I like that for what it is but it's kind of a pain to DM without tons of experience with it. I've always been really interested in the history of D&D and especially the old AD&D modules, and while I've ran some of them in 5e, I've been drawn to trying out the old-school.

I've heard the 2e books are better organized and have less nudity, so I decided to focus on 2e for the core rules at least. I recently bought the PHB, but I wonder which books I should get next? Do I really need the DMG? I of course plan on getting the MM. I also plan on getting Complete Fighter and Complete Humanoid. What adventures should I get? I already have G1-3, D1-3, "Ravenloft," "Barrier Peaks," and "White Plume Mountain."

Also what rule quirks should I watch out for? Baldur's Gate has me straightened out on THAC0 but what about speed factor?


I am a fan of the Player's Option: Combat and Tactics book.

The other Player's Options books tend to be somewhat controversial for creating imbalance and power-gaming, but the Combat and Tactics supplement cleans up combat beautifully.

I use aspects from all of the Player's Options books myself, but it took years of fiddling with which parts of them I wanted to get the game just right for me.

But of the three, the Combat and Tactics is the most solid. The system is a good upgrade to the clunky 2nd Ed combat system.

Tome and Magic and PO: Spells and Magic have a bunch of new spells, and different takes on magical systems if that appeals to you.

[Thrudd]

You should note that there are a lot of differences between 1e and 2e, and all the modules you have listed are from 1e. So there will be assassins, and monks, and illusionists in those adventures that are missing from your PHB, and some spell differences, as well. You can use them, you just need to do some adjusting (it might be hard to know the best way to do that if you don't know the stuff that has changed).

Yes, you absolutely need the DMG for whichever edition, both editions, that you want to run. Most of the rules of the game are in the DMG. The PHB is basically just for players to make their characters and explain how things work in general from the player side.

There is barely any nudity in any of the books. Really just a couple drawings of monster boobs in the 1e monster manual. The 1e DMG isn't that well organized, but it has much better advice for running the game and lots of useful stuff.

[MeeposFire]

You should note that there are a lot of differences between 1e and 2e, and all the modules you have listed are from 1e. So there will be assassins, and monks, and illusionists in those adventures that are missing from your PHB, and some spell differences, as well. You can use them, you just need to do some adjusting (it might be hard to know the best way to do that if you don't know the stuff that has changed).

Yes, you absolutely need the DMG for whichever edition, both editions, that you want to run. Most of the rules of the game are in the DMG. The PHB is basically just for players to make their characters and explain how things work in general from the player side.

There is barely any nudity in any of the books. Really just a couple drawings of monster boobs in the 1e monster manual. The 1e DMG isn't that well organized, but it has much better advice for running the game and lots of useful stuff.

Well 2e has more in the PHB compared to 1e for instance the PHB actually has the characters THAC0 scores and saving throw numbers whereas in 1e that was all held in the DMG.

I still agree on the whole you really need a DMG and I personally would use the gold for XP rules as it really helps characters actually level in a decent amount of time (combat XP only takes FOREVER).

It does take some thought to use older modules but honestly I actually ran D&D modules using 2e rules and di not even realize it at the time. Granted I thought it was weird when the class lists kept saying class was elf rather than fighter/magic user who was an elf but I just thought it was weirdness from being what looked like a British publication. For the most part though I did not have very many problems doing it and that is a bit more different than 1e to 2e.

[Thrudd]

Well 2e has more in the PHB compared to 1e for instance the PHB actually has the characters THAC0 scores and saving throw numbers whereas in 1e that was all held in the DMG.

I still agree on the whole you really need a DMG and I personally would use the gold for XP rules as it really helps characters actually level in a decent amount of time (combat XP only takes FOREVER).

It does take some thought to use older modules but honestly I actually ran D&D modules using 2e rules and di not even realize it at the time. Granted I thought it was weird when the class lists kept saying class was elf rather than fighter/magic user who was an elf but I just thought it was weirdness from being what looked like a British publication. For the most part though I did not have very many problems doing it and that is a bit more different than 1e to 2e.

Right, gold for XP is a big change from 1e to 2e, and probably the worst thing ever that they only gave it a little side box as an optional thing instead of making it the default. The amount of treasure in the modules assumes you're earning XP for it, and that you're paying thousands of gold for training in order to level up.

[Puh Laden]

Thanks everyone. What sorts of things are in the DMG that I would need? I'd like to know what I'm buying it for. I know magic items are in it. Besides optional rules and magic items, what else is in it?

From the sound of things, I should buy the DMG and MM first, then after I've actually ran a game with the system I'll get Combat and Tactics, Complete Fighter, Complete Humanoid, and any other suggested books. Given how Ravenloft gives the stats for the monsters in it, I guess I'll get the DMG then run Ravenloft. If I'm still interested, I'll get everything else.

[LibraryOgre]

Also what rule quirks should I watch out for? Baldur's Gate has me straightened out on THAC0 but what about speed factor?

How Speed Factor works depends on which set of the base rules you're assembling. BitD, we always used individual initiative, meaning, at the beginning of every round, everyone rolled 1d10 and declared their actions. To your d10, you added your speed factor, giving you your final initiative... smallest numbers went first.

So, if Alice is swinging her long sword (SF 5) and Bob is casting Magic Missile (Casting Time of 1, which works like Speed Factor when CT is less than 1 round), they roll their d10s. Bob comes up 6, for a total of 7. Alice comes up 2, also for a total of 7; both will go simultaneously. Had Alice rolled a 1, she'd have gone on 6, and might have prevented Bob from casting a spell at all, since any damage in the round spoils a spell.

One highly useful thing the DMG contains is rules for figuring out the XP of any monsters you create... including human/demi-human/humanoid NPCs. If you haven't got the full MM, you can populate most of the game with fighters, clerics, and other classes, and still know how much XP they're worth.

On the topic of Combat and Tactics, I would say you might do just as well to get the Complete Fighter's Handbook. Many of the useful things that C&T includes are out of the CFH, which is also slimmer and doesn't contain as many novel mechanics (like the entirely reworked initiative system).

[Puh Laden]

How Speed Factor works depends on which set of the base rules you're assembling. BitD, we always used individual initiative, meaning, at the beginning of every round, everyone rolled 1d10 and declared their actions. To your d10, you added your speed factor, giving you your final initiative... smallest numbers went first.

So, if Alice is swinging her long sword (SF 5) and Bob is casting Magic Missile (Casting Time of 1, which works like Speed Factor when CT is less than 1 round), they roll their d10s. Bob comes up 6, for a total of 7. Alice comes up 2, also for a total of 7; both will go simultaneously. Had Alice rolled a 1, she'd have gone on 6, and might have prevented Bob from casting a spell at all, since any damage in the round spoils a spell.

One highly useful thing the DMG contains is rules for figuring out the XP of any monsters you create... including human/demi-human/humanoid NPCs. If you haven't got the full MM, you can populate most of the game with fighters, clerics, and other classes, and still know how much XP they're worth.

On the topic of Combat and Tactics, I would say you might do just as well to get the Complete Fighter's Handbook. Many of the useful things that C&T includes are out of the CFH, which is also slimmer and doesn't contain as many novel mechanics (like the entirely reworked initiative system).

Good to know about Complete Fighter. After looking up some more about Combat and Tactics, I'll probably just stick to what's in Complete Fighter then.

[LibraryOgre]

Good to know about Complete Fighter. After looking up some more about Combat and Tactics, I'll probably just stick to what's in Complete Fighter then.

One really useful thing out of Complete Fighter (that later showed up in C&T) is the Weapon Styles. They're not as potent as they are in BGEE, but can still be REALLY useful. One of our perennial favorites was Two-Handed Style specialization... the 3 point reduction to weapon speed was a big deal, bringing a two-handed sword down into the realm of one-handed weapons. A pretty potent 1st level fighter spread is to specialize in Long Sword, then take a level in both Two-Hander and Single Weapon. Using your sword two-handed gives you a +1 to damage, and the 3 point SF reduction. If you have to switch to single handed for some reason, you get a +1 to AC. That means your normal fighting style is 3/2 attacks, +1 to hit, 1d8+3/1d12+3 at a SF of 2... you will probably go first, and you will hit pretty hard. And that's on top of any Strength bonuses you have.

Shields are HORRIBLY undervalued in AD&D, which is what makes that set-up so valuable.

[Thrudd]

Thanks everyone. What sorts of things are in the DMG that I would need? I'd like to know what I'm buying it for. I know magic items are in it. Besides optional rules and magic items, what else is in it?

From the sound of things, I should buy the DMG and MM first, then after I've actually ran a game with the system I'll get Combat and Tactics, Complete Fighter, Complete Humanoid, and any other suggested books. Given how Ravenloft gives the stats for the monsters in it, I guess I'll get the DMG then run Ravenloft. If I'm still interested, I'll get everything else.

Almost everything is in the DMG. Not just optional rules, all the rules. You won't know how to run combat or assign XP to monsters and NPCs or a lot of other essential things without it. Basically everything necessary to run the game. Magic items is no small thing, either. There's time passage and travel and pursuit rules and morale, hirelings and henchmen rules. Its utility can't be overstated. Without it you can hardly play the game.

[BigBadHarve]

On the topic of Combat and Tactics, I would say you might do just as well to get the Complete Fighter's Handbook. Many of the useful things that C&T includes are out of the CFH, which is also slimmer and doesn't contain as many novel mechanics (like the entirely reworked initiative system).




On the topic of Combat and Tactics, I would say you might do just as well to get the Complete Fighter's Handbook. Many of the useful things that C&T includes are out of the CFH, which is also slimmer and doesn't contain as many novel mechanics (like the entirely reworked initiative system).

There is some overlap, but the C&T is a far superior presentation.

As well, the novel mechanics are the prime reason to go for it. The new initiative system is streamlined and smooth, nothing like the chore that is the standard 2nd Ed system. I have never hated combat in D&D more than in using the core 2nd Ed initiative system. (Well maybe 3rd ed)

The movement rules, reach rules, critical hits, master weapons charts, shield proficiency rules (for dealing with their inherent undervalue), clean and fun unarmed combat rules, knockdown #s for various weapons, instant battlefield generator for random encounters... all stuff that often comes up at the table and handy having around. As well there's a good mass melee system if you need something less involved than 'Battlesystem.'

What the Fighter's handbook has that's not present in C&T is the role playing advice and ideas. C&T is purely mechanical... so if looking for that sort of thing then yes, the fighter's handbook is the better choice.

I think both are worth having, but at the same time we don't want to stretch the poor man's budget! :smalleek:

[LibraryOgre]

As well, the novel mechanics are the prime reason to go for it. The new initiative system is streamlined and smooth, nothing like the chore that is the standard 2nd Ed system. I have never hated combat in D&D more than in using the core 2nd Ed initiative system. (Well maybe 3rd ed)


Defintiely a YMMV situation. We'd been playing for a year or so when C&T came out. We briefly tried the new initiative system, and hated it; switched back almost immediately.

[hamlet]

I would honestly recommend staying away from the Players' Options books. I found them . . . poor. But that's just me.

If I were you, I'd stay away from the complete books mostly, too. Too many of them were fairly useless in the grand scheme of things, though if you really want some, the Fighter's, Cleric's, Thief's, and Magic-User's are all ok (cleric book is more of a how to world building book and less anything else). I don't really care for the humanoids book, but then, I'm really REALLY not a fan of the "petting zoo party" so to speak. It does, though, have a few benefits to it that I like, like goblins, orcs, hobgoblins, etc. Might want to be extremely selective with what is permitted. An orc wandering into a plane old town is probably going to get stuck with sharp objects fairly rapidly.

Other good books to pick up are the annual compendiums for the monster manual. They're quite good as were a number of the monstrous compendiums (loose leaf 3-hole punched sheets expansions of the basics).

Yes, you need the DMG to run it, but not lots. And I'd recommend picking up the 1st edition DMG as well, it has some good stuff in it if you wade through it all. As does the Pathfinder Advanced Gamemaster's Guide (or whatever it was called).

Other than that, there's really not a whole lot you should go after in the long run. Dungeon and Dragon Magazine, if you find that you like 2nd edition, is actually a good thing to start collecting as there were a LOT of really good things in it. AD&D strength was in those magazines and its settings, though I caution you on the settings since they make changes to the base rules sometimes.

By the way, the easiest way I've ever seen to run THAC0 is ridiculously easy and absent from . . . everything. The player rolls a to hit, adds their modifiers and tells you, you add the AC of the targeted creature and if it equals or exceeds the PC's listed THAC0 for their level (i.e., 20 at first level), then they've hit. Yes, you have to remember that negative AC's get subtracted, but that's not hard because there's a freakin' minus sign right in front of them!

Most of all, have fun. It's a great system.

Also also, if you like, For Gold and Glory is a moderately faithful clone of it and, except for a few changes that I'd scratch out, a really good thing to hand to players if they don't want to go buy books.

[hamlet]

Defintiely a YMMV situation. We'd been playing for a year or so when C&T came out. We briefly tried the new initiative system, and hated it; switched back almost immediately.

Personally, I LOVE the initiative system of 2nd edition. 1st edition's initiative system still baffles me to this day. After decades of using it. There are entire 10+ page documents devoted to explaining it. Poorly.

And I'm not fond of the initiative system of 3.x+ systems. It's too static for me, though easily gotten around by asking players to re-roll initiative each round even if that plays silly with the spell durations.

[Magua]

So, if Alice is swinging her long sword (SF 5) and Bob is casting Magic Missile (Casting Time of 1, which works like Speed Factor when CT is less than 1 round), they roll their d10s. Bob comes up 6, for a total of 7. Alice comes up 2, also for a total of 7; both will go simultaneously. Had Alice rolled a 1, she'd have gone on 6, and might have prevented Bob from casting a spell at all, since any damage in the round spoils a spell.

Wait, is that how it works?

All along I thought it was "damage /during/ casting ruins the spell" (eg, damage anytime during the portion starting with their initiative to their initiative + casting time)

Probably because that's how it was done in the gold box SSI games (Pool of Radiance, Curse of the Azure Bonds, etc). Since there was no such thing as simultaneous actions, magic missile was always useful because there was such a small window for interruption.

[Lord Torath]

Wait, is that how it works?

All along I thought it was "damage /during/ casting ruins the spell" (eg, damage anytime during the portion starting with their initiative to their initiative + casting time)

Probably because that's how it was done in the gold box SSI games (Pool of Radiance, Curse of the Azure Bonds, etc). Since there was no such thing as simultaneous actions, magic missile was always useful because there was such a small window for interruption.Damage during casting ruins the spell. Damage before casting merely prevents the spell. The difference being that in the second case, the caster can try again the next round. If the spell is ruined, that instance of the spell is wiped from the caster's memory.

[LibraryOgre]

Wait, is that how it works?

All along I thought it was "damage /during/ casting ruins the spell" (eg, damage anytime during the portion starting with their initiative to their initiative + casting time)

Probably because that's how it was done in the gold box SSI games (Pool of Radiance, Curse of the Azure Bonds, etc). Since there was no such thing as simultaneous actions, magic missile was always useful because there was such a small window for interruption.

Ah, but did you notice that your casters occasionally didn't have the option to cast? That's because they took damage before they started the spell. You don't lose the spell if you haven't started casting, but you can't cast.

The RAW is harsher than that, depending on your reading.


During the round in which the spell is cast, the caster cannot move to dodge attacks. Therefore, no AC benefit from Dexterity is gained by spellcasters while casting spells. Furthermore, if the spellcaster is struck by a weapon or fails to make a saving throw before the spell is cast, the caster's concentration is disrupted. The spell is lost in a fizzle of useless energy and is wiped clean from the memory of the caster until it can be rememorized. Spellcasters are well advised not to stand at the front of any battle, at least if they want to be able to cast any spells!

[Magua]

The things I learn twenty five years later.

[Puh Laden]

I would honestly recommend staying away from the Players' Options books. I found them . . . poor. But that's just me.

If I were you, I'd stay away from the complete books mostly, too. Too many of them were fairly useless in the grand scheme of things, though if you really want some, the Fighter's, Cleric's, Thief's, and Magic-User's are all ok (cleric book is more of a how to world building book and less anything else). I don't really care for the humanoids book, but then, I'm really REALLY not a fan of the "petting zoo party" so to speak. It does, though, have a few benefits to it that I like, like goblins, orcs, hobgoblins, etc. Might want to be extremely selective with what is permitted. An orc wandering into a plane old town is probably going to get stuck with sharp objects fairly rapidly.

Other good books to pick up are the annual compendiums for the monster manual. They're quite good as were a number of the monstrous compendiums (loose leaf 3-hole punched sheets expansions of the basics).

Yes, you need the DMG to run it, but not lots. And I'd recommend picking up the 1st edition DMG as well, it has some good stuff in it if you wade through it all. As does the Pathfinder Advanced Gamemaster's Guide (or whatever it was called).

Other than that, there's really not a whole lot you should go after in the long run. Dungeon and Dragon Magazine, if you find that you like 2nd edition, is actually a good thing to start collecting as there were a LOT of really good things in it. AD&D strength was in those magazines and its settings, though I caution you on the settings since they make changes to the base rules sometimes.

By the way, the easiest way I've ever seen to run THAC0 is ridiculously easy and absent from . . . everything. The player rolls a to hit, adds their modifiers and tells you, you add the AC of the targeted creature and if it equals or exceeds the PC's listed THAC0 for their level (i.e., 20 at first level), then they've hit. Yes, you have to remember that negative AC's get subtracted, but that's not hard because there's a freakin' minus sign right in front of them!

Most of all, have fun. It's a great system.

Also also, if you like, For Gold and Glory is a moderately faithful clone of it and, except for a few changes that I'd scratch out, a really good thing to hand to players if they don't want to go buy books.

Regarding humanoids, I doubt I'll allow pixies most of the time, as being tiny and able to fly and having innate magic is just always going to be problematic, but I love orcs, half-orcs, goblinoids, and other monstrous races. Half the time I run campaigns where they're not created to be evil, half the time I do. So I always want to have the options open, hobgoblins in particular are a favorite. However, I doubt I'll be able to run 2e frequently (though with a lifetime ahead of me I'm sure to be able to run it enough times to be worth it) and a lot of the potential players I know would probably tend toward the PHB races, so it's less a priority than Complete Fighter.

Which compendiums are the most interesting? Are those the books like the Illithiad?

[Digitalelf]

Which compendiums are the most interesting? Are those the books like the Illithiad?

The Monstrous Compendiums were just "Monster Manuals" that were aimed at specific campaign settings. The books such as The Illiathad, I Tyrant, and The Sea Devils were books focusing upon a single monster (i.e. Mind Flayers, Beholders, and Sahuagin respectively). Unfortunately, there were only three of those books, with each having a module trilogy to support them.

As to which compendium being the most interesting... Well, that is a matter of which setting you prefer, but therein also lies the problem with the separate compendiums. While each setting had at least one monster/creature unique to the setting (e.g. Ravenloft had Goblyns, Dragonlance had Draconians, Al-Qadim had the Gens, etc.), the compendiums also contained monsters that were fairly "universal" such as the first Forgotten Realms Monstrous Compendium containing dinosaurs for example.

I would say that the 15 or so Monstrous Compendiums are worth having IMHO over the single Monstrous Manual hardbound book, as that book is limited on the number of monsters it provides; though I will say that it does a good job on providing a good sampling of monsters. However, even if you get the Monstrous Manual, as well as all 4 of the "Annuals", you will still not have all of the monsters available through the Monstrous Compendium line.

[MeeposFire]

I do think in many ways the lay out in the complete fighters handbook is better but in one area I definitly prefer teh sword and shield style better in combat and tactics. Essentially they are the same but the one in C&T allows you to attack with the shield and keep your AC bonus but the Complete Fighter one did not (and frankly if I am going to bother to spend extra prof on a style that lets me make an extra attack that on its own is less effective than standard two weapon fighting and generally requires that as well to be done effectively then it had better let me keep my AC bonus too).

One thing I did not like about two handed weapon style is that it made one handed weapons two handed better than regular two handed weapons since 1d8+1 is better than 1d10 (this is of course assuming you are in the groups that did not use damage against large targets which the groups I played with and knew about all did not use with that rule in force then things can be different).

Also with the interrupt casting rue it is important to note that you do not need to DAMAGE the caster you just need to strike the caster. Most of the time if you hit you will deal damage but sometimes that is not the case. Potentially you might be able to disrupt that Lich with your normal longsword (though not hurt it) but not that ghost wizard. Remember that casting requires the caster to remain immobile and simple things like being moved around can interrupt casting so getting smacked with an object while casting can certainly mess you up even if it does not deal damage just like waves battering a ship or the buffeting from riding in a chariot.

[hamlet]

The Monstrous Compendiums were just "Monster Manuals" that were aimed at specific campaign settings. The books such as The Illiathad, I Tyrant, and The Sea Devils were books focusing upon a single monster (i.e. Mind Flayers, Beholders, and Sahuagin respectively). Unfortunately, there were only three of those books, with each having a module trilogy to support them.

As to which compendium being the most interesting... Well, that is a matter of which setting you prefer, but therein also lies the problem with the separate compendiums. While each setting had at least one monster/creature unique to the setting (e.g. Ravenloft had Goblyns, Dragonlance had Draconians, Al-Qadim had the Gens, etc.), the compendiums also contained monsters that were fairly "universal" such as the first Forgotten Realms Monstrous Compendium containing dinosaurs for example.

I would say that the 15 or so Monstrous Compendiums are worth having IMHO over the single Monstrous Manual hardbound book, as that book is limited on the number of monsters it provides; though I will say that it does a good job on providing a good sampling of monsters. However, even if you get the Monstrous Manual, as well as all 4 of the "Annuals", you will still not have all of the monsters available through the Monstrous Compendium line.

This.

The compendiums are largely setting based, though of course there are a couple of settings that were . . . "neutral" enough that they could be generic.

Greyhawk is a very good one to have. The two main ones as well (i.e., compendium 1 and 2). Dragonlance has a good bit of interesting things. Forgotten Realms has some, but I find that a lot of it degenerates into weird for the sake of weird. The Ravenloft compendiums are quite good if you want the horror stuff included. The others are, mostly, situational and depend on whether you want that flavor in your game. You're not going to pick up Spelljammer unless that's something you want, though if only for the giant space hamsters, go for it.:smallwink:

A word of caution on the Complete Books of . . . you probably want to shy away from a lot of them. There was a lot of crap in them: the greenwood ranger especially stands out along with a lot of the fan wank stuff in the elf book. Dwarven book is . . . ok. Halfling and gnome book probably not worth it but interesting if you want to complete the set.

Psionics stands apart as a good one if you can wrap your head around it (it's a little tough to grok at first). Essentially can be used as an alternate magic system entirely (i.e., no clerics or wizards folks!) or to give flavor to things you want to introduce and put the fear of the DM in your players from time to time. Or, give them something nifty and crunchy to interact with and even strive for.

Necromancer book is good only for the DM. It's a great spot to go and create a fun villain of the type if you want.

Catacombs guide and Campaign guide are also quite good for nothing else than a lot of excellent advice on how to run the game. If you've DM'ed successfully before, a lot of it will be rehash though.