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Mr. WildeStone
2017-07-11, 09:49 PM
I'm sure this isn't the most original thing to be posted here; I've seen lamentations of a lack of a focused tank in 3.5 before. My intent was to stack the deck in all defensive areas at the cost of all others. My DM and main guy I bounce ideas off of's main criticism is that it "lacks a weakness." I disagree. To my comprehension no base class has flaws built into it, and where they are lacking tends to be expressed through play. I also made an effort to make it super MAD for the sake of balancing its stalwart defense. I'd like to know what you guys think. Here's what I have so far:

Hit die: d12
2+Int
Class Skills: Concentration, Intimidate, Listen, Spot, Survival
Good/Great/Monk Saves (A little unclear on the specific jargon)
1/4 BAB (or half if that's the lowest typically doled out; I think 1/4 BAB is a thing)
Sentinel's Taunt (Ex): Will save 10+half Sentinel level+Cha; failed save and target only capable of offensively targeting the Sentinel for the round; AoE with progression. Mind-Affecting ability (No undead etc.)
Retaliate (Ex): Attacks of opportunity against melee attackers of the Sentinel
DR (likely Barbarian progression)
SR (10+1/2 level and/or Cha mod?)
Shield Other (Sp/Su); swift or immediate action with progression
Armor Training: Same as PF Fighter, maybe scaled back depending on how OP it is; PF PCs tend to be more powerful to my understanding
Wis mod to AC, maybe not until a certain level
Sentinel's Stand (Ex): Admittedly a super busted capstone ability. At 20th level, once in a lifetime, a Sentinel reduced to -10 or fewer HP is automatically resurrected at full health, as True Resurrection

A drawback I'd considered at the DM's advice was the Sentinel's Code: A Sentinel may only take an offensive action when using his Retaliate ability or risks losing all class features.

I know it's a little rough, but I trust any interested parties may be willing to help clean it up. thanks for reading.

JKTrickster
2017-07-12, 11:09 AM
This class isn't really good at being a Tank. And I don't think the main issue is a lack of weaknesses (it certainly has MANY). Instead, you have all these abilities that don't function together at all.


1. First of all, the skill list is rather sparse. You sure you don't want something like Sense Motive?


2. The lowest BaB is 1/2 BaB. 1/4 BaB is not allowed.

Also this is a weakness. Having only 1/2 BaB is a significant weakness for a character that seems to rely on attacks.


3. What action is the Sentinel's Taunt class feature? Free action? Swift action?


4. Retaliate is a terrible ability.

First, your character only has 1/2 BaB. That means you'll miss REALLY often compared to other melee characters.

Second, this has potentially backward incentives. If you're a tank, you want people to focus on you. But this ability makes opponents want to attack other people - if they attack you, you get to attack them back for free.

Does that mechanic make you a WORSE tank?

It would be better if you got a free attack when the opponent attempted to hit an ally instead.



Note: This is also much weaker than I might imagine. Attack of Opportunity is limited to 1/round. This ability would therefore require Combat Reflexes to matter at higher levels.

But if your Tank wears/needs Heavy Armor, then having Combat Reflexes and a High Dex is kind of counter intuitive. Armor Training helps, but not enough IMO.


5. Your Spell Resistance is terrible.

Spell Resistance in 3.5 must be carefully thought out.

First, it prevents your allies from casting beneficial spells on you. Like healing spells. Terrible for a Tank expected to take a lot of the damage.

Second, your numbers are not high enough. You only progress by 1/2 level. Your class feature literally gets weaker as you level up.

At level 1, a Wizard with no feats and no items rolls 1d20+1 against your SR of 11. They have a 50% chance of success.

At level 10, a Wizard with no feats and no items rolls 1d20+10 against your SR of 15. They have a 75% chance of success.

At level 20, a Wizard with no feats and no items rolls 1d20+20 against your SR 20 Tank. That means they will automatically succeed.

That is terrible design.


6. Shield Other - How often can this ability be used? Is there any limitations on this ability at all? What LEVEL is this ability granted at?

There is just no information to really judge this.


7. Armor Training - it's fine. It's not too strong, don't worry about it.


8. Wis Mod to AC is fine but it doesn't really make the character "MAD".

First of all, does this stack with Armor? If it doesn't, that is bad design.

If it does, then it's just a boring number bonus.



9. Sentinel Stand is a terrible capstone.

A level 17 Cleric casts True Resurrection multiple time a day. I mean sure, it costs 25,000 GP but that is literally the average amount of gold you might pick up in an encounter. Why would anyone use this ability? Just die and let the Cleric heal you. All it saves is a one-time fee of 25,000 GP.

But let's say this is REALLY strong. Even then, it's a terrible ability because this character only gets it ONCE IN A LIFETIME. Anytime you tell the players something is limited, they will hog it and try to wait until the very last moment to use it.

Players are hoarders. That's a big problem though.

This mechanic INCENTIVES players to play less like a Tank because they don't want to "waste" their Once-in-a-Lifetime ability. That's terrible mechanical design. Your capstone should encourage being a big badass Tank, not to discourage it.


~~~~

Overall, the issue with the class is not a lack of weaknesses.

Every mechanical design should reinforce roleplaying.

A Tank character class should undeniably be a Tank. Every class feature, every ability, and every choice should reflect that. Right now, most of your abilities conflict and flat out contradict what you said you wanted to do.

A character class does not need to be made with weakness in mind, that I agree.

Instead, I believe each should have situational strengths. If you make a Tank character that is situationally strong, that will already be balanced enough.

gooddragon1
2017-07-12, 05:11 PM
I'm sure this isn't the most original thing to be posted here; I've seen lamentations of a lack of a focused tank in 3.5 before. My intent was to stack the deck in all defensive areas at the cost of all others. My DM and main guy I bounce ideas off of's main criticism is that it "lacks a weakness." I disagree. To my comprehension no base class has flaws built into it, and where they are lacking tends to be expressed through play. I also made an effort to make it super MAD for the sake of balancing its stalwart defense. I'd like to know what you guys think. Here's what I have so far:

Hit die: d12
2+Int
Class Skills: Concentration, Intimidate, Listen, Spot, Survival
Good/Great/Monk Saves (A little unclear on the specific jargon)
1/4 BAB (or half if that's the lowest typically doled out; I think 1/4 BAB is a thing)
Sentinel's Taunt (Ex): Will save 10+half Sentinel level+Cha; failed save and target only capable of offensively targeting the Sentinel for the round; AoE with progression. Mind-Affecting ability (No undead etc.)
Retaliate (Ex): Attacks of opportunity against melee attackers of the Sentinel
DR (likely Barbarian progression)
SR (10+1/2 level and/or Cha mod?)
Shield Other (Sp/Su); swift or immediate action with progression
Armor Training: Same as PF Fighter, maybe scaled back depending on how OP it is; PF PCs tend to be more powerful to my understanding
Wis mod to AC, maybe not until a certain level
Sentinel's Stand (Ex): Admittedly a super busted capstone ability. At 20th level, once in a lifetime, a Sentinel reduced to -10 or fewer HP is automatically resurrected at full health, as True Resurrection

A drawback I'd considered at the DM's advice was the Sentinel's Code: A Sentinel may only take an offensive action when using his Retaliate ability or risks losing all class features.

I know it's a little rough, but I trust any interested parties may be willing to help clean it up. thanks for reading.

+As said elsewhere the half BAB is a significant drawback already.
+Retaliation could be used to take this class as a dip instead of what you wanted already. As mentioned elsewhere you might want to consider having it function if the enemy attacks an adjacent ally so that you can return attacks. Or more interestingly, have it grant you bonuses for each time you or an ally is attacked (greater bonuses if allies are attacked)
+Allowing a saving throw to ignore the effect makes it not a guarantee, but not allowing a saving throw would make it too strong. Could be useful in some situations, but you might want to add a second sort of ability to take it's place or improve the functionality of shield other
+Damage reduction helps and is damage reduction, not much to say
+The spell resistance is too low, I would also consider making the spell resistance selective in that you can choose to allow or disallow spells on a case by case basis by who is casting them as well as an instinctive knowledge of what the spell would do so you never need to lower your spell resistance and it's a bit more interesting. Maybe even have an ability to extend this spell resistance to adjacent allies with some restrictions or drawbacks.
+Shield other is a useful spell that will allow you to tank damage even if you aren't attacked, so that's good.
+Don't know what armor training is.
+Wisdom to AC could affect your multiple ability dependence and make you less able to concentrate on certain stats, but maybe not as it's just an extra bonus
+For the capstone, you should see what the Truenamer gets ;) (gate at will)

The general ways of tanking (imo) are:
+Deflect attacks with actions of your own (there's a maneuver with a shield that does this in TOB)
+Force enemies to attack you (knights can do this and there's a stance that gives enemies a harder time attacking your allies)

+This new (based on mantle of spite a little though) method of getting bonuses when allies are attacked will mean that you get to crank out the damage on your turn and you get bonuses whether they attack you or not, but they have an incentive to attack you as the bonuses won't accrue as quickly.

If you own the book where mantle of pure spite (a cleric spell) is I would look to that for what bonuses you should get.
Possible examples:
+Bonuses to DR
+Bonuses to Damage Rolls (probably with melee weapons)
+Bonuses to Attack Rolls
+Bonuses to AC

You could also make more exotic bonuses. I would recommend that they probably have a level cap though or some other sort of cap.

Potential Retaliation ability

Retaliation (Ex)

Once per round, if a sentinel or one of his allies within 30 feet is successfully attacked (such as by an enemy making a successful attack roll, initiating a grapple, or causing a detrimental effect to an ally) his battle fervor increases. For each instance, the sentinel gains a +1 bonus to attack rolls and damage rolls for the remainder of the combat. An attack against an ally is treated as two instances. The bonuses from this ability that persist for the duration of the combat cannot exceed half his sentinel level (rounded up). However, the sentinel may gain additional +1 bonuses to attack and damage rolls over and above that persist until 2 rounds have passed where no successful attacks were made against the allies of the sentinel (not himself) within 30 feet. These temporary bonuses can reach up to twice his sentinel level and are in addition to the combat duration bonuses.

You could also have later improvements or feat improvements to radius, accrual rate of bonuses (such as how many instances are accrued or how many times per round the ability can be triggered), etc.

I would also consider making this a 3/4 BAB class. It's still a drawback which is somewhat overcome if the enemy keeps attacking your allies, but it's not completely crippling.

With this ability written the way it is, you are looking at up to a +50 bonus to attack and damage rolls total by level 20 if the enemies keep attacking your allies instead of focusing entirely on you (though the combat would have had to have gone on for a while at that point). If they stop attacking your allies for 2 rounds it drops to +10 by level 20. Though if they do that you just bought your allies two rounds of actions.

EDIT: Two more things. One, having more than one of this class on a team could be a problem with the retaliate ability I've outlined. Two, I know you're the one who had this idea, but I might sorta want to finish designing a class with this retaliate ability. I personally prefer healing which is why I made some of the classes that I have, but some people do like to tank and I'd like to make something for them too.

Mr. WildeStone
2017-07-13, 02:57 AM
Go ahead! I like the idea of you using it for something else. Let me know when you have it posted.

Knitifine
2017-07-13, 01:45 PM
I'm sure this isn't the most original thing to be posted here; I've seen lamentations of a lack of a focused tank in 3.5 before. My intent was to stack the deck in all defensive areas at the cost of all others. My DM and main guy I bounce ideas off of's main criticism is that it "lacks a weakness." I disagree. To my comprehension no base class has flaws built into it, and where they are lacking tends to be expressed through play. I also made an effort to make it super MAD for the sake of balancing its stalwart defense. I'd like to know what you guys think. Here's what I have so far:

Hit die: d12
2+Int
Class Skills: Concentration, Intimidate, Listen, Spot, Survival
Good/Great/Monk Saves (A little unclear on the specific jargon)
1/4 BAB (or half if that's the lowest typically doled out; I think 1/4 BAB is a thing)
Sentinel's Taunt (Ex): Will save 10+half Sentinel level+Cha; failed save and target only capable of offensively targeting the Sentinel for the round; AoE with progression. Mind-Affecting ability (No undead etc.)
Retaliate (Ex): Attacks of opportunity against melee attackers of the Sentinel
DR (likely Barbarian progression)
SR (10+1/2 level and/or Cha mod?)
Shield Other (Sp/Su); swift or immediate action with progression
Armor Training: Same as PF Fighter, maybe scaled back depending on how OP it is; PF PCs tend to be more powerful to my understanding
Wis mod to AC, maybe not until a certain level
Sentinel's Stand (Ex): Admittedly a super busted capstone ability. At 20th level, once in a lifetime, a Sentinel reduced to -10 or fewer HP is automatically resurrected at full health, as True Resurrection

A drawback I'd considered at the DM's advice was the Sentinel's Code: A Sentinel may only take an offensive action when using his Retaliate ability or risks losing all class features.

I know it's a little rough, but I trust any interested parties may be willing to help clean it up. thanks for reading.

What you have here is more of a wish list than a class. I'm gonna throw together a chart with a suggestion for these that you and others might use to help put this class together.

Also, far from having a lack of weaknesses, the class seems to have too little in the way of features. In any case, enjoy the mock up.


The Sentinel

“I am the sword and the shield. I am the one who watches the watchmen, I am a Sentinel.” – Oath of the Sentinel

The Sentinel is an alternative to a traditional fighter. They function similar to a paladin, defending and bolstering their allies in adherence to their strong beliefs.

Adventures: ~
Characteristics: ~
Alignment: ~, Suggestion: Any nonchaotic/any nonevil
Religion: ~
Background: ~
Other Classes: ~

Role: ~

Adaptation: ~

GAME RULE INFORMATION
Sentinel’s have the following game statistics.
Abilities: Sentinels find all abilities useful, but tend to possess high Constitution and Strength scores to more effectively guard and retaliate.
Alignment: Lawful Good, Lawful Neutral, Neutral Good, or Neutral.
Hit Die: d12
Starting Age: As paladin.
Starting Gold: As paladin.

Class Skills
The Sentinels's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are...
Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Heal (Wis), Knowledge (History) (Int), Knowledge (Nobility) (Int), Listen (Wis), Profession (Wis), Search (Int), Spot (Wis), and Survival (Wis).
Skill Points at First Level: (2 + Int modifier) x 4
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 2 + Int modifier

Sentinel


Level
Base Attack Bonus
Fort Save
Ref Save
Will Save
Special
Damage Reduction
Spell Resistance


1st

+0

+2

+2

+2
Aura, Sentinel's Challenge 1/Day

1

12


2nd

+1

+3

+3

+3
Shield Other

2

13


3rd

+1

+3

+3

+3
Armor Training

3

14


4th

+2

+4

+4

+4
Sentinel's Challenge 2/Day

4

15


5th

+2

+4

+4

+4
Retaliate

5

16


6th

+3

+5

+5

+5
-

6

17


7th

+3

+5

+5

+5
Armor Training, Sentinel's Challenge 3/Day

7

18


8th

+4

+6

+6

+6
-

8

19


9th

+4

+6

+6

+6
-

9

20


10th

+5

+7

+7

+7
Sentinel's Challenge 4/Day

10

21


11th

+5

+7

+7

+7
Armor Training

11

22


12th

+6

+8

+8

+8
-

12

23


13th

+6

+8

+8

+8
Sentinel's Challenge 5/Day

13

24


14th

+7

+9

+9

+9
-

14

25


15th

+7

+9

+9

+9
Armor Training

15

26


16th

+8

+10

+10

+10
Sentinel's Challenge 6/Day

16

27


17th

+8

+10

+10

+10
-

17

28


18th

+9

+11

+11

+11
-

18

29


19th

+9

+11

+11

+11
Armor Training, Sentinel's Challenge 7/Day

19

30


20th

+10

+12

+12

+12
Spell Immunity, Last Stand

20

Immunity



Class Features
All of the following are class features of the Sentinel.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Sentinels are proficient with all simple weapons and with all armor (heavy, medium, and light) and shields (inculding Tower Shields)
Aura: The power of a Sentinel's aura of law and/or good is equal to her Sentinel level.
Sentinel's Challenge (Ex): Once per day, a sentinel can challenge a foe to combat. As a swift action, the sentinel chooses one target within sight to challenge. The sentinel's melee attacks gain a competance bonus against this enemy equal to 1 + 1 for every odd numbered sentinel level above 1st. The sentinel can use this ability once per day at 1st level, plus one additional time per day for every 3 level beyond 1st.

While challenged, enemies provoke attacks of oppurtunity when they attack any creature that is not the sentinel.

The challenge remains in effect until the target is dead or unconcious or until the combat ends.
Damage Reduction: Starting at 1st level, the sentinel gains the ability to shrug off damage. They gain DR 1/- which increases by 1 for every sentinel level thereafter.
Spell Resistance: Starting at 1st level, the sentinel is capable of resisting magic spells. They gain spell resistance 11 + their Sentinel level.
Shield Other(Ex): Starting at 2nd level, a sentinel can shield their allies in lieu of their own defenses. The sentinel may choose one ally at the begining of their turn. As long as the sentinel is adjacent to that ally, the sentinel does not benefit from their shield bonus or damage reduction. Both of these abilities are instead granted to the selected ally.
Armor Training(Ex): Starting at 3rd level, a sentinel learns to be more maneuverable while wearing armor. Whenever they are wearing armor, they reduce the armor check penalty by 1 (to a minimum of 0) and increase the maximum Dexterity bonus allowed by their armor by 1. Every four levels thereafter (7th, 11th, 15th and 19th), these bonuses increase by +1 each time, to a maximum –5 reduction of the armor check penalty and a +5 increase of the maximum Dexterity bonus allowed.

In addition, a sentinel can also move at their normal speed while wearing medium armor. At 7th level, a sentinel can move at their normal speed while wearing heavy armor.
Retaliate: Starting at 5th level, whenever the sentinel makes an attack of oppurtunity the enemy they are attacking must make a Fortitude Save (DC 10 + 1/2 the Sentinel's level + The Sentinel's Constitution modifier) or be staggered for 1 round.
Spell Immunity (Ex): At 20th level, the Sentinel becomes immune to any effect that allows for spell resistance.
Last Stand (Su): At 20th level, the Sentinel gains the ability to real back from certain death. The sentinel gains the ability to keep fighting at negative HP and even into death. They sentinel is still vulnerable to stagger and taking damage from certain actions at these low health levels, but never falls unconcious or is preventing from taking actions due to death or dying until the combat ends.

Code of Conduct: A sentinel must always strive to protect the weak and deescalate conflict when possible. Failure to do so results in the sentinel losing confidence in themselves and making them unable to issue a challenge to opponents for 24 hours.

Knitifine
2017-07-13, 01:56 PM
Dead levels bug me, so I filled them in with some fighter-like class features. I'm sure y'all will come up with something better, but here's my personal mock-up for this class again. Now without dead levels. I'm making this a separate post instead of an edit since I think the original better shows the holes in the class from the original suggestion and this is only one way to fill those gaps.


The Sentinel

“I am the sword and the shield. I am the one who watches the watchmen, I am a Sentinel.” – Oath of the Sentinel

The Sentinel is an alternative to a traditional fighter. They function similiarly to a paladin, defending and bolstering their allies in adherance to their strong beliefs.

Adventures: ~
Characteristics: ~
Alignment: ~, Suggestion: Any nonchaotic/any nonevil
Religion: ~
Background: ~
Other Classes: ~

Role: ~

Adaptation: ~

GAME RULE INFORMATION
Sentinel’s have the following game statistics.
Abilities: Sentinels find all abilities useful, but tend to possess high Constitution and Strength scores to more effectively guard and retaliate.
Alignment: Lawful Good, Lawful Neutral, Neutral Good, or Neutral.
Hit Die: d12
Starting Age: As paladin.
Starting Gold: As paladin.

Class Skills
The Sentinels's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are...
Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Heal (Wis), Knowledge (History) (Int), Knowledge (Nobility) (Int), Listen (Wis), Profession (Wis), Search (Int), Spot (Wis), and Survival (Wis).
Skill Points at First Level: (2 + Int modifier) x 4
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 2 + Int modifier

Sentinel


Level
Base Attack Bonus
Fort Save
Ref Save
Will Save
Special
Damage Reduction
Spell Resistance


1st

+0

+2

+2

+2
Aura, Sentinel's Challenge 1/Day

1

12


2nd

+1

+3

+3

+3
Shield Other

2

13


3rd

+1

+3

+3

+3
Armor Training

3

14


4th

+2

+4

+4

+4
Sentinel's Challenge 2/Day

4

15


5th

+2

+4

+4

+4
Retaliate

5

16


6th

+3

+5

+5

+5
Bonus Feat

6

17


7th

+3

+5

+5

+5
Armor Training, Sentinel's Challenge 3/Day

7

18


8th

+4

+6

+6

+6
Martial Prowess

8

19


9th

+4

+6

+6

+6
Bonus Feat

9

20


10th

+5

+7

+7

+7
Sentinel's Challenge 4/Day

10

21


11th

+5

+7

+7

+7
Armor Training

11

22


12th

+6

+8

+8

+8
Bonus Feat

12

23


13th

+6

+8

+8

+8
Sentinel's Challenge 5/Day

13

24


14th

+7

+9

+9

+9
Greater Martial Prowess

14

25


15th

+7

+9

+9

+9
Bonus Feat, Armor Training

15

26


16th

+8

+10

+10

+10
Sentinel's Challenge 6/Day

16

27


17th

+8

+10

+10

+10
Battlefield Presence

17

28


18th

+9

+11

+11

+11
Bonus Feat

18

29


19th

+9

+11

+11

+11
Armor Training, Sentinel's Challenge 7/Day

19

30


20th

+10

+12

+12

+12
Spell Immunity, Last Stand

20

Immunity



Class Feature
All of the following are class features of the Sentinel.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Sentinels are proficient with all simple weapons and with all armor (heavy, medium, and light) and shields (inculding Tower Shields)
Aura: The power of a Sentinel's aura of law and/or good is equal to her Sentinel level.
Sentinel's Challenge (Ex): Once per day, a sentinel can challenge a foe to combat. As a swift action, the sentinel chooses one target within sight to challenge. The sentinel's melee attacks gain a competance bonus against this enemy equal to 1 + 1 for every odd numbered sentinel level above 1st. The sentinel can use this ability once per day at 1st level, plus one additional time per day for every 3 level beyond 1st.

While challenged, enemies provoke attacks of oppurtunity when they attack any creature that is not the sentinel.

The challenge remains in effect until the target is dead or unconcious or until the combat ends.
Damage Reduction: Starting at 1st level, the sentinel gains the ability to shrug off damage. They gain DR 1/- which increases by 1 for every sentinel level thereafter.
Spell Resistance: Starting at 1st level, the sentinel is capable of resisting magic spells. They gain spell resistance 11 + their Sentinel level.
Shield Other(Ex): Starting at 2nd level, a sentinel can shield their allies in lieu of their own defenses. The sentinel may choose one ally at the begining of their turn. As long as the sentinel is adjacent to that ally, the sentinel does not benefit from their shield bonus or damage reduction. Both of these abilities are instead granted to the selected ally.
Armor Training(Ex): Starting at 3rd level, a sentinel learns to be more maneuverable while wearing armor. Whenever they are wearing armor, they reduce the armor check penalty by 1 (to a minimum of 0) and increase the maximum Dexterity bonus allowed by their armor by 1. Every four levels thereafter (7th, 11th, 15th and 19th), these bonuses increase by +1 each time, to a maximum –5 reduction of the armor check penalty and a +5 increase of the maximum Dexterity bonus allowed.

In addition, a sentinel can also move at their normal speed while wearing medium armor. At 7th level, a sentinel can move at their normal speed while wearing heavy armor.
Retaliate: Starting at 5th level, whenever the sentinel makes an attack of oppurtunity the enemy they are attacking must make a Fortitude Save (DC 10 + 1/2 the Sentinel's level + The Sentinel's Constitution modifier) or be staggered for 1 round.
Bonus Feats: Starting at 6th level, the sentinel gets a bonus combat-oriented feat in addition to the feats they normally recieve. They gain an additional bonus feat at 9th level and every 3 level therafter (12th, 15th, and 18th). These bonus feats must be drawn from feats noted as fighter bonus feats.
Martial Prowess: Starting at 8th level, the sentinel may consider their fighter level to be their 1/2 their sentinel level for the purpose of selecting feats.
Greater Martial Prowess: Starting at 14th level, the sentinel may consider their BAB to be equal to their sentinel level for the purpose of selecting feats.
Battlefield Presence: Starting at 17th level, the sentinel grants all allies who can see and hear them a +2 bonus on attacks of oppurtunity.
Spell Immunity (Ex): At 20th level, the Sentinel becomes immune to any effect that allows for spell resistance.
Last Stand (Su): At 20th level, the Sentinel gains the ability to real back from certain death. The sentinel gains the ability to keep fighting at negative HP and even into death. They sentinel is still vulnerable to stagger and taking damage from certain actions at these low health levels, but never falls unconcious or is preventing from taking actions due to death or dying until the combat ends.

Code of Conduct: A sentinel must always strive to protect the weak and deescalate conflict when possible. Failure to do so results in the sentinel losing confidence in themselves and making them unable to issue a challenge to opponents for 24 hours.

gooddragon1
2017-07-13, 02:18 PM
Now I'm going to have to name mine the vanguard, but thank you for making a table. I'll just be appropriating that...

and a lot of the formatting... because it looks good.

Knitifine
2017-07-13, 02:29 PM
Now I'm going to have to name mine the vanguard, but thank you for making a table. I'll just be appropriating that...

and a lot of the formatting... because it looks good.No reason to not use the same name if you want to. My version certainly not the definitive version. The formatting is from Base Class Contest XXXX Happy Little Accidents (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?526968-Base-Class-Contest-XXXX-Happy-Little-Accidents).

Morphic tide
2017-07-13, 03:06 PM
Okay, to better work out the class as it's intended, I'd have the setup be changed as follows:

4+Int skill points, to actually have the points needed for Spot, Listen, Sense Motive and Search all at once.

Add Sense Motive, Ride, Search, Craft, Profession, Knowledge(local), Knowledge(nobility), Knowledge(religion), and Balance to class skills. The knowledges allow for acting as a proper Knight sort of character, in the sense of gallant noblemen who go about solving problems by strength of arms with a band of other similar men and women. Knowledge(Local) and Search allow them to be a largely-regular city guard, backstory-wise. Craft and Profession are general PC things and give something to do for downtime, if wanted..

The terminology for Monk saves is all-Good saves, FYI.

Full BAB, because this is a melee character intended to be actually hitting things from time to time and some important feats are BAB-gated. Lacking direct offensive abilities or feat access will cover not being able to go on the offensive.

Remove Taunt. Too gamist for tanking in a true role-play game, tanks should work by actually giving mechanical incentive to attack them.

Have Retaliation be an automatic attack against enemies who attack allies within a range, instead of enemies attacking you. Stack bonuses for it up so that enemies attacking anyone other than the Sentinel becomes crazy. Do not have it be an Attack of Opportunity as those are limited in number.

DR scaling should be something like 2+Con+level, if you want to be negating most, but not all, incoming mundane damage at all levels.

SR scaling should be 12-14+1/2 level+Wis, keeping up a sizeable chance of spell failure for the whole game.

Dex to AC instead of Wis, bypassing the limit caused by armor, would support the option of being heavily armored as well as light armored, and being a sentinel in the sense of being an actual guard who does patrols, with the capacity to chase down people and provide protection by means of covering fire.

Sentinel's Stand as 1/week instead of once per lifetime, to make it actually be a proper capstone save button.

Generally, 3.5 is a game where just surviving won't get you far. Unless the DM is a complete moron at reasonable campaign management, making the enemies act like MMO mobs by going after the beefiest person, then pure defensive power doesn't matter if you can't force the enemy to attack you. Having this forced attack be logical is good game design. A good way to make this happen is to cause a lot of penalties to enemies that attack people who aren't the tank. Such as automatic attacks against enemies attacking other people.

I'll probably add more later, the computer I'm on is at the edge of it's capacity. To the point that the auto-save of the post causes it to lock up.

gooddragon1
2017-07-13, 06:06 PM
No reason to not use the same name if you want to. My version certainly not the definitive version. The formatting is from Base Class Contest XXXX Happy Little Accidents (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?526968-Base-Class-Contest-XXXX-Happy-Little-Accidents).

Now I feel a bit less guilty which is good.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?530219-The-Vanguard-Work-in-Progress&p=22192232#post22192232

There it is. All done.

Note: With current balance level by 19, assuming enemies keep attacking allies it will take about 14 rounds for the Vanguard to reach max bonus.
Also included some methods of reducing it's power level if it's too much for a DM.

Temotei
2017-07-13, 06:50 PM
Now I feel a bit less guilty which is good.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?530219-The-Vanguard-Work-in-Progress&p=22192232#post22192232

There it is. All done.

Note: With current balance level by 19, assuming enemies keep attacking allies it will take about 14 rounds for the Vanguard to reach max bonus.
Also included some methods of reducing it's power level if it's too much for a DM.

At this point, if you come up with a name that hasn't been used (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=13196296&postcount=1), you're probably not using English. Which is fine. I would just not worry about using the same name as someone else.

gooddragon1
2017-07-13, 08:19 PM
At this point, if you come up with a name that hasn't been used (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=13196296&postcount=1), you're probably not using English. Which is fine. I would just not worry about using the same name as someone else.

I see that tank classes aren't uncommon... but I feel like this is maybe untapped design space. Gaining a bonus every time someone is attacked and extra when an ally is attacked. Though it looks like you did quite a bit more writing that I could stomach. I had thought about making fervor also a resource instead that could be used for maneuvers. But that would require a whole lot more writing and then a DM would have to do a whole lot more reading.

Temotei
2017-07-14, 04:40 PM
I see that tank classes aren't uncommon... but I feel like this is maybe untapped design space. Gaining a bonus every time someone is attacked and extra when an ally is attacked. Though it looks like you did quite a bit more writing that I could stomach. I had thought about making fervor also a resource instead that could be used for maneuvers. But that would require a whole lot more writing and then a DM would have to do a whole lot more reading.

For sure. I think you can still do a lot of things with classes that haven't been done (or I wouldn't be running the Base Class Contest, let's be real). The names can be a bit unoriginal, though, and I think that's okay if it gets the idea of your class across. The name is the first thing someone sees when they look at a class, so it should evoke an image that matches your class. If that happens to also be the same word describing multiple other classes, sometimes that's fine.

Mr. WildeStone
2017-07-14, 10:57 PM
You're a cool guy Temotei. Also, love the classes you guys! I was losing hope this thread would gain any traction. I'm probably going to use the first Sentinel class. I don't think my DM would approve the "No dead level" build. Trying to get him to approve Psychic Chirurgeon riight now.

Morphic tide
2017-07-15, 12:43 PM
You're a cool guy Temotei. Also, love the classes you guys! I was losing hope this thread would gain any traction. I'm probably going to use the first Sentinel class. I don't think my DM would approve the "No dead level" build. Trying to get him to approve Psychic Chirurgeon riight now.

The key to "no dead levels" is to have table filling multiple entry abilities, like Rogue's Sneak Attack, or Fighter's Bonus Feats. Improvements of previous abilities, rather than a pile of new ones.

fire_insideout
2017-07-15, 01:14 PM
IMO no class ever deserves 2 + Int skill points unless it is SAD Int focused. 2 skill points per level is terrible and this class needs CON, STR and WIS, leaving Int as the 4th stat at best, meaning that even with really good rolls you'll probably end up with somewhere between 12 and 14, giving you 3-4 skill points.

To a mundane class, which must try to keep up with spellcasters through whatever means they can, this isn't very nice. I'd say 4, or maybe even 6, to make it a bit more 'single-trick' and allow some more customization.

Mr. WildeStone
2017-07-15, 10:35 PM
I was thinking that for the no-dead-level build, some defensive abilities would be more appropriate than fighter bonus feats and martial prowess, like Uncanny Dodge, Evasion, Slippery Mind, and Mettle, which could improve with progression.