Advancing monsters with no advancement

[Silex]

Hello playgrounders! As the title implies, I am looking to advance a monster that has no advancement rules! In fact, I am looking to actually make it the Elder Evil in my campaign!

I would like to take the Skulking Cyst from Libris Mortis, and advance it, making it an Elder Evil.

I was attempting to do this a while back, but real life got in the way of my ambitions!

If you could help me advance this creature, and allocate an intelligence score, it would be of great help, and very much appreciated.

I am looking for it to be around a CR 21-23

I haven't got much experience advancing monsters or creating my own.

Thank you in advance :)

[Silex]

Nobody has any thoughts or suggestions?

[Bohandas]

the monster specific advancement rules are just guidelines anyway, the most mechanically significant part are he bits about size advancement (where applicable). Just add HD or class levels (and/or gestalt class levels to existing HD)

[Malimar]

If you just advance it by HD and size, you're gonna end up with a giant bag of hit points and not much else.

My first thought for something to look at is the Kaiju template from Dragon Magazine #289 (which, yes, is mostly a giant bag of hit points, but also some other stuff).

You could alternatively fiat it an int score and toss on a bunch of class levels. Maybe throw on a couple iterations of the Evolved Undead template (also Libris Mortis), but not too many because you want the creature to have some hit points.

[Thurbane]

If we're looking at the same creature, it has an Int score of 13?

Most small creatures won't get larger than medium by advancing HD (dragons excepted).

Assuming we use the monster advancing guidelines, you'd need to slap 68 Undead HD on it to get it to CR 21.

Even with 72 HD and access to a bunch of epic feats, it's going to be a pretty underwhelming Elder Evil. Even if you make it Gargantuan, it's attacks and defenses aren't going to be great.

Maybe just use Atrpous (EE) or an Atropal (http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/epicMonstersAndObstacles.htm), and say it evolved out of a Skulking Cyst?

Alternatively, tell us what features you like most of the Skulking Cyst, and maybe we can home brew a suitable EE for you?

[Silex]

If we're looking at the same creature, it has an Int score of 13?

Most small creatures won't get larger than medium by advancing HD (dragons excepted).

Assuming we use the monster advancing guidelines, you'd need to slap 68 Undead HD on it to get it to CR 21.

Even with 72 HD and access to a bunch of epic feats, it's going to be a pretty underwhelming Elder Evil. Even if you make it Gargantuan, it's attacks and defenses aren't going to be great.

Maybe just use Atrpous (EE) or an Atropal (http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/epicMonstersAndObstacles.htm), and say it evolved out of a Skulking Cyst?

Alternatively, tell us what features you like most of the Skulking Cyst, and maybe we can home brew a suitable EE for you?

I'll be darned, you're right about the Int score!

I love the whole feel of the monster! My entire campaign is actually based around the Mother Cyst feat and attached spells, in the form of a cult trying to awaken this EE, the World Cyst.

As it awakens, it feeds off of the natural life force of the planet itself, using a more powerful equivalent to the blood drain ability.

The sign of it's coming is going to be closer to that of the Living Rot sign, but a step further. As it progresses, it will impede druidic spells, as well as any spells that are attached to/drawn from the natural world.

I also love the SLA that the Skulking Cyst has, and would love to add to it.

I want this to be potential ruination on a global scale. I have been planting the seeds for the EE throughout the campaign to this point.

I am trying to create the most horrific thing my players have ever encountered, ya know? The stuff of nightmares!

I should mention that this is a horror campaign!

I hope this helps explain my vision! I appreciate the help, and if you can help homebrew this thing and post it, I would be forever in your debt! I know what I want, just not how to execute it!

[XionUnborn01]

This might be a little unrelated but there's got to be a way to abuse the wording of the attach ability where it says "An attached skulking cyst's AC is 15" not that it loses it's dex bonus but just that it's 15. There must be some interesting RAW abuse options here.

[Silex]

This might be a little unrelated but there's got to be a way to abuse the wording of the attach ability where it says "An attached skulking cyst's AC is 15" not that it loses it's dex bonus but just that it's 15. There must be some interesting RAW abuse options here.

Lol quite likely

[ShurikVch]

Well, Kaiju template was already mentioned by Malimar; it's pretty much go-to for progressing creatures without progression

Also, Skulking Cyst is qualify for Demon Lord template (Dragon #359). This template is very powerful (Astral Projection (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/astralProjection.htm) at-will!), and Obyrith subtype will give you Form of Madness
The only problem is - template doesn't have set-in-stone CR, so it's unclear how much it should add to resulting creature
Also, by the RAW, it switch Type to Outsider

To make it more Elder Evil-like - how about the Permanent Emanation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#permanentEmanation): Evil Weather (Rain of Blood)? It will require access to 8th-level spell slot; but, if you somehow get CL=HD (Forestmaster template? Martial Arcanist with Outsider HD?) - radius will be 44 miles (or 176 miles - if you apply Kaiju's "all attack's areas are x4" rule)

It's pity Skulking Cyst can't qualify for [harbinger] feats: Omen of Bones, Omen of Crows, and Omen of Flies could be very thematic there

[Silex]

Well, Kaiju template was already mentioned by Malimar; it's pretty much go-to for progressing creatures without progression

Also, Skulking Cyst is qualify for Demon Lord template (Dragon #359). This template is very powerful (Astral Projection (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/astralProjection.htm) at-will!), and Obyrith subtype will give you Form of Madness
The only problem is - template doesn't have set-in-stone CR, so it's unclear how much it should add to resulting creature
Also, by the RAW, it switch Type to Outsider

To make it more Elder Evil-like - how about the Permanent Emanation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#permanentEmanation): Evil Weather (Rain of Blood)? It will require access to 8th-level spell slot; but, if you somehow get CL=HD (Forestmaster template? Martial Arcanist with Outsider HD?) - radius will be 44 miles (or 176 miles - if you apply Kaiju's "all attack's areas are x4" rule)

It's pity Skulking Cyst can't qualify for [harbinger] feats: Omen of Bones, Omen of Crows, and Omen of Flies could be very thematic there

Where can I find the harbinger feats that you mentioned?

[ShurikVch]

Where can I find the harbinger feats that you mentioned?Dragon #340, "The Ecology of the Mooncalf" article
All of those feats are requiring Mooncalf with 28 HD (Moonlord), and usable 1/week; Mixed Omens feat allow to use two Omens at once

[Silex]

Dragon #340, "The Ecology of the Mooncalf" article
All of those feats are requiring Mooncalf with 28 HD (Moonlord), and usable 1/week; Mixed Omens feat allow to use two Omens at once

Thank you, I will go take a look at these. If I like them, I can always alter them to fit my needs

[lylsyly]

Hmmm ….

CR4 as is …
Considering rule 0 is in effect ….

Just give it 17 to 19 class levels.

Simple Rogue comes to mind. Also if you want to be really nasty, Shadowcaster works.

Any of the Rogue based Prestige classes that deal in shadows or are just plain evil.

All kinds of evil things you could do with just plain giving it class levels.

Considering rule 0 you could even keep the d12 HD whatever you do.

Just my 2 coppers
YMMV