War Domain (Variant)

[Requiemforlust]

So, this went up on the Middle Finger of Vecna (http://mfov.magehandpress.com/2017/07/divine-domain-war-variant.html) blog today. I completely, 100% like this better than the PHB version, and it'll be the War Domain I use in all future games I DM.

What are y'all's thoughts on it? Where does it sit in terms of power level? Is it even needed in your mind? I kinda agree with the author that the PHB War Domain is mechanically sound, but boring. I think that this livens it up quite a bit :smallbiggrin:

[GandalfTheWhite]

Actually...I rather like this. I thought that the PHB War Domain was fine...until I read the article. Now...I look on in sadness at what could have been.

[ArtificialElf]

I've got to say, I really don't like the PHB Channel Divinity for war clerics - getting two separate but very similar abilities feels like a waste, and that +10 does nothing for a natural 1 (not to mention that one successful attack is unlikely to have a big impact on an encounter). Along with that, the War Priest feature is nice, but not usable enough to seem useful, so I definitely prefer this level 2 Channel Divinity option. Oh, and I completely approve of removing the nonmagical damage limitation for the capstone. I mean, tempest clerics can fly!

On the flipside though, I feel Clerics already have the most Bonus Action spells competing for action economy - including fantastic spells like healing word and spiritual weapon - which could potentially reduce the usefulness of Fury of Battle :smallconfused:.

[jaappleton]

First, let's all take a moment to appreciate something in the preamble. Something we all know to be true, even if the optimizer in us knows some Domains are better in a certain way.

"No puss-out Archer Clerics here"

-slow clap-

Now that we have that out of the way...

DracoKnight did a hell of a job here, as he usually does. First the Soul Knife for the Monk, and now this variant War Domain. The man knows his stuff, that's obvious at this point.

The lack of being able to use a Heavy weapon for Fury of Battle means no GWM cheese.

As far as 'Well, aren't Bonus Actions typically reserved for Spiritual Weapon or Healing Word?'
A fine point. Remember, Spiritual Weapon still has its use here: SW can move. Flying enemy? No problem for SW. And of course, Healing Word always has its place, that's why its Healing Word. Being able to attack with bonus actions also means you're stretching your spell slots since SW won't be as necessary as it typically is on other domains.

I really enjoy Ardent Assault. I always like things which promote synergy between other characters (I find most Paladin Oaths do that the best), and this does a very good job at that. Its simple, but can be devastatingly effective.

Let's briefly discuss the spell list. You've got your staples on there, like Spiritual Weapon, Divine Favor, Shield of Faith, Flame Strike... Now Haste? Ok, some may think that's a bit much, but it really isn't. Some overrate Haste. It's pretty damn good, it's not amazing. It's one way to get another attack WITHOUT using your Channel Divinity, and its also a way to turn yourself into a murder-death machine (Well, as much as a Cleric can be one) when combined with it.

I really like this. Bravo, DracoKnight, bravo.

[DracoKnight]

First, let's all take a moment to appreciate something in the preamble. Something we all know to be true, even if the optimizer in us knows some Domains are better in a certain way.

"No puss-out Archer Clerics here"

-slow clap-

Maybe it's just me, but I hate archers. Something about them just...I dunno. I have an adverse, irrational, knee-jerk reaction to builds that favor archery characters. I should probably get that looked at.


Now that we have that out of the way...

DracoKnight did a hell of a job here, as he usually does. First the Soul Knife for the Monk, and now this variant War Domain. The man knows his stuff, that's obvious at this point.

I'm flattered! But my content is only as good as the people I run it by before publishing it :smallsmile:


The lack of being able to use a Heavy weapon for Fury of Battle means no GWM cheese.

As you know, that clause wasn't initially in there, and the Finger about had a heart attack over the possibility of dealing 40 ((2d6+3)*2 + 10 + 10) Damage on a Nova round at 1st level. And admittedly, it was an oversight allowing that :smalleek:


As far as 'Well, aren't Bonus Actions typically reserved for Spiritual Weapon or Healing Word?'
A fine point. Remember, Spiritual Weapon still has its use here: SW can move. Flying enemy? No problem for SW. And of course, Healing Word always has its place, that's why its Healing Word. Being able to attack with bonus actions also means you're stretching your spell slots since SW won't be as necessary as it typically is on other domains.

Exactly this. Fury of Battle helps you conserve your spell slots, or get more attacks if you really want to use both a CD and drop a spell slot on haste. Healing word will still get used, and so will spiritual weapon. It just adds another use for your bonus action, while giving you what's essentially Lesser Extra Attack.


I really enjoy Ardent Assault. I always like things which promote synergy between other characters (I find most Paladin Oaths do that the best), and this does a very good job at that. Its simple, but can be devastatingly effective.

This one is actually not of my making. It came from a comment on the blog, but I loved the teamwork and synergy that the ability allows :smallbiggrin:


Let's briefly discuss the spell list. You've got your staples on there, like Spiritual Weapon, Divine Favor, Shield of Faith, Flame Strike... Now Haste? Ok, some may think that's a bit much, but it really isn't. Some overrate Haste. It's pretty damn good, it's not amazing. It's one way to get another attack WITHOUT using your Channel Divinity, and its also a way to turn yourself into a murder-death machine (Well, as much as a Cleric can be one) when combined with it.

If I were writing an optimization guide, I'd rate haste as dark blue or black. The drawbacks of losing concentration are too frightening to rate it any higher.


I really like this. Bravo, DracoKnight, bravo.

Thank you! I'm glad it turned out well!

[SterlingWren]

I didn't know I wanted a War Domain fix until I read this. This is so much better thematically than the War Domain presented in the PHB. I see Fighters regarding this war cleric as a true brother(or sister)-in-arms.

Also:

"No puss-out archer clerics here, thanks!"

Has to be about my favorite thing ever written.

[GandalfTheWhite]

I didn't know I wanted a War Domain fix until I read this. This is so much better thematically than the War Domain presented in the PHB. I see Fighters regarding this war cleric as a true brother(or sister)-in-arms.

Also:

"No puss-out archer clerics here, thanks!"

Has to be about my favorite thing ever written.

To be fair, you very easily can make the 6th level ability work as an archer. Just stand next to the archer ranger/rogue/fighter/kensei.

[SterlingWren]

Out of curiosity, was it practical or theoretical disappointment with the War Domain that prompted this rewrite?

[DracoKnight]

Out of curiosity, was it practical or theoretical disappointment with the War Domain that prompted this rewrite?

Practical. Five times I've tried playing a war cleric. By 6th level I'd swapped to Tempest (3 times), Death (played it once and loved it for a frontline cleric), and Trickery (once but it was slightly modded*) and enjoyed all of them infinitely more than the PHB War Domain.

*We changed its Divine Strike to be psychic damage, and allowed Blessing of the Trickster to apply to yourself too.

[Lord Il Palazzo]

Eh, I guess I'm that one guy for this thread. I think the PHB War Cleric is fine and don't think that the one in this article is a significant improvement. If one of my players really wanted to use it I'd probably allow it (it's not broken or anything), but I wouldn't suggest it to a player interested in the PHB version and it hasn't soured the PHB version for me.

I like when classes/subclasses offer multiple ways to play them, including the ability to play either a melee or ranged character so arbitrarily limiting this to melee bugs me. Having the 6th level ability encourage melee would be one thing, but outright removing ranged attacks from the War Priest feature seems arbitrary.

Fury of Battle is a neat feature, but the fluff feels wrong to me. Maybe I look at the War Domain differently than most, but something bordering on berserker fury doesn't always fit the subclass as I interpret it/have had players interpret it. I think it's mostly a warrior vs. soldier thing; I prefer to have the War Priest capable of being played as either a blood-soaked berserker or a divinely gifted tactician. Fury of Battle feels like it locks War Clerics into being the former.

This is more nebulous and minor but I'd prefer if War Priest and Ardent Assault didn't use the same number-of-uses mechanic (WIS/long rest). I can't really put my finger on it but it feels wrong. Maybe it's the bookkeeping or the opportunity to confuse the two or maybe it's something else. It just doesn't sit right with me.

[MrMcBobb]

I, like many other posters, didn't know I wanted a War Cleric rewrite until just now. Might run this past my DM to see if I can use it in his Curse of Strahd campaign...

[jaappleton]

I, like many other posters, didn't know I wanted a War Cleric rewrite until just now. Might run this past my DM to see if I can use it in his Curse of Strahd campaign...

Grab the Sunblade and vanquish darkness, warrior! Strahd doesn't stand a chance!

In fact, this War Cleric with 2 levels of Paladin would be amazing for a campaign like that. Adding Smite to this? Niiiice. A bit MAD, but you'd only need 13 CHA.

[Mortheim]

Pretty good. Feels like WAR priest. But has a lot of power from 2nd till 5th level - huge chance to deal 2d10 damage with each attack (Longsword + channel divinity). And doesn't fall behind later. cause ability to deal 2d10+1d8 is pretty good. Not counting haste on 5th level also. Which brings us to 3d10+1d8 at 8th level (and pure 3d10 on 5th with haste). Not counting other stuff (like 9 spell levels).
I would prefer weaker version from phb, ty <3

[Biggstick]

Ardent Assault
Starting at 6th level, when an ally within 5 feet of you deals damage with a successful weapon attack, you can use your reaction to cause their attack to deals the maximum possible damage. You can use this ability a number of times equal to your Wisdom modifier (a minimum of once). You regain all expended uses when you finish a long rest.

Stand next to the Elven Assassin with Sharpshooter (and who's using a Longbow) at 500+ feet away and hidden. If the Assassin lands the attack, the Assassin doesn't have to roll any of their Sneak Attack damage dice, they simply do maximum damage.

This. Is. Broken.

I also really dislike how your Fury of Battle has limited the War Cleric to not using heavy weapons. You talk of the War Cleric not feeling like a War Cleric, and then bring this sort of thing in here? A War Cleric using a heavy weapon is extremely iconic, and to have that removed just spits on the image of a Polearm using War Cleric.

Honestly though, why was Haste added to the spell list? I think War Cleric's always prepared spells as they currently are are already really fitting for the War Cleric. I see no reason personally as to why the Haste spell was tacked onto the spell list.

As for Guided Strike as it is (War Cleric's standard Channel Divinity), think of it like extra insurance for your GWM and SS using party members. If they roll a 10 and are short on hitting the big bad's AC, you can fix that issue and put forth the hurt on them.

Personally, the reason I suspect most people here didn't know they wanted a War Cleric remake was that War Cleric is fine as is. I think the things you're trying to slap on the class are way too easy to abuse.

[DracoKnight]

Eh, I guess I'm that one guy for this thread. I think the PHB War Cleric is fine and don't think that the one in this article is a significant improvement. If one of my players really wanted to use it I'd probably allow it (it's not broken or anything), but I wouldn't suggest it to a player interested in the PHB version and it hasn't soured the PHB version for me.

I like when classes/subclasses offer multiple ways to play them, including the ability to play either a melee or ranged character so arbitrarily limiting this to melee bugs me. Having the 6th level ability encourage melee would be one thing, but outright removing ranged attacks from the War Priest feature seems arbitrary.

Fury of Battle is a neat feature, but the fluff feels wrong to me. Maybe I look at the War Domain differently than most, but something bordering on berserker fury doesn't always fit the subclass as I interpret it/have had players interpret it. I think it's mostly a warrior vs. soldier thing; I prefer to have the War Priest capable of being played as either a blood-soaked berserker or a divinely gifted tactician. Fury of Battle feels like it locks War Clerics into being the former.

This is more nebulous and minor but I'd prefer if War Priest and Ardent Assault didn't use the same number-of-uses mechanic (WIS/long rest). I can't really put my finger on it but it feels wrong. Maybe it's the bookkeeping or the opportunity to confuse the two or maybe it's something else. It just doesn't sit right with me.

I didn't actually remove their ability to make ranged attacks. The feature only encourages you to be in melee, it doesn't change anything about your weapon proficiencies.

[Lord Il Palazzo]

I didn't actually remove their ability to make ranged attacks. The feature only encourages you to be in melee, it doesn't change anything about your weapon proficiencies.Yes, but you know exactly what I mean. You're also proficient in heavy weapons, but there's feature that discourages them too. Having the subclass features go almost completely to waste with a certain weapon type or style means most players won't use those weapon types. Like I said, I value the ability to build a character multiple ways so every fighter isn't a two-handed weapon guy and every paladin isn't sword-and-board (for example) and fifth edition did some great things (like the fighting styles and relatively balanced weapon choices) to encourage diversity so even within a class or subclass, every character doesn't feel the same. This subclass actively discourages diversity for no better reason than what you admitted was "an adverse, irrational, knee-jerk reaction" to options that work well with one particular style.

Edit: Put another way: Proficiency isn't everything. Rogues and high elf wizards are proficient with longswords. When's the last time you saw one actually use a longsword as a major part of their combat game plan? Even with proficiency, their other class features still steer them heavily away from actually using that option which means that most players will pick something that actually lets them use class effectively. I have to imagine a very similar situation would arise here with ranged weapons.

[DracoKnight]

Yes, but you know exactly what I mean. You're also proficient in heavy weapons, but there's feature that discourages them too. Having the subclass features go almost completely to waste with a certain weapon type or style means most players won't use those weapon types. Like I said, I value the ability to build a character multiple ways so every fighter isn't a two-handed weapon guy and every paladin isn't sword-and-board (for example) and fifth edition did some great things (like the fighting styles and relatively balanced weapon choices) to encourage diversity so even within a class or subclass, every character doesn't feel the same. This subclass actively discourages diversity for no better reason than what you admitted was "an adverse, irrational, knee-jerk reaction" to options that work well with one particular style.

Edit: Put another way: Proficiency isn't everything. Rogues and high elf wizards are proficient with longswords. When's the last time you saw one actually use a longsword as a major part of their combat game plan? Even with proficiency, their other class features still steer them heavily away from actually using that option which means that most players will pick something that actually lets them use class effectively. I have to imagine a very similar situation would arise here with ranged weapons.

But even then the only weapon type that the subclass actively discourages is the 2nd level ability in regards to heavy weapons. The 6th level ability works just fine if you're standing next to a ranged ally.

And the heavy weapon discouragement is more for balance than to enhance the theme, I'll admit. But I don't want to see any class with the ability to deal 40 damage consistently at 2nd level. I would love to allow heavy weapons in the Channel Divinity, but I can't justify it in my head.

[Lord Il Palazzo]

But even then the only weapon type that the subclass actively discourages is the 2nd level ability in regards to heavy weapons. The 6th level ability works just fine if you're standing next to a ranged ally.

And the heavy weapon discouragement is more for balance than to enhance the theme, I'll admit. But I don't want to see any class with the ability to deal 40 damage consistently at 2nd level. I would love to allow heavy weapons in the Channel Divinity, but I can't justify it in my head.Are you forgetting that you changed War Priest to allow "one melee weapon attack" as a bonus action rather than the "one weapon attack"? Not being able to use your level 1 class feature is a pretty significant encouragement not to use a ranged weapon.

[jaappleton]

Are you forgetting that you changed War Priest to allow "one melee weapon attack" as a bonus action rather than the "one weapon attack"? Not being able to use your level 1 class feature is a pretty significant encouragement not to use a ranged weapon.

.......Yeah, I think he did forget that one. >_>

[DracoKnight]

Ardent Assault
Starting at 6th level, when an ally within 5 feet of you deals damage with a successful weapon attack, you can use your reaction to cause their attack to deals the maximum possible damage. You can use this ability a number of times equal to your Wisdom modifier (a minimum of once). You regain all expended uses when you finish a long rest.

Stand next to the Elven Assassin with Sharpshooter (and who's using a Longbow) at 500+ feet away and hidden. If the Assassin lands the attack, the Assassin doesn't have to roll any of their Sneak Attack damage dice, they simply do maximum damage.

This. Is. Broken.

Yes, it is. I'm working on a fix right now. I'll probably have the ability scrubbed and changed by tonight.


I also really dislike how your Fury of Battle has limited the War Cleric to not using heavy weapons. You talk of the War Cleric not feeling like a War Cleric, and then bring this sort of thing in here? A War Cleric using a heavy weapon is extremely iconic, and to have that removed just spits on the image of a Polearm using War Cleric.

I feel like the far more iconic image of the war priest is one who wields a warhammer and shield. That's the image I have encountered more often (personally) in my 10+ years of gaming (tabletop and video game). I didn't remove heavy weapons for thematic reasons, but for balance reasons. Starting at 5th level you can cast haste and no longer have to worry about the restriction while making the same number of attacks.


Honestly though, why was Haste added to the spell list? I think War Cleric's always prepared spells as they currently are are already really fitting for the War Cleric. I see no reason personally as to why the Haste spell was tacked onto the spell list.

Because while spirit guardians is incredibly thematic, I was shocked that War Clerics didnt get access to the #1 spell to cast when it comes to buffing your warriors. Spirit guardians is still on the Cleric spell list, and they can prepare it every day. I included haste because I felt it's an option they should have, and that it adds to their tactical choices.


As for Guided Strike as it is (War Cleric's standard Channel Divinity), think of it like extra insurance for your GWM and SS using party members. If they roll a 10 and are short on hitting the big bad's AC, you can fix that issue and put forth the hurt on them.

Isn't that what Bless is for, though? And you only have 3 CD uses at higher levels: do most people actually waste them on an instantaneous effect that only effects one of your own attacks? The 6th level CD, I see the usefulness of, but 2nd level I've never seen the point of.


Personally, the reason I suspect most people here didn't know they wanted a War Cleric remake was that War Cleric is fine as is. I think the things you're trying to slap on the class are way too easy to abuse.

That's entirely fair. And I openly said: "I don't know if I'm the only one who feels it's lackluster or not." I put this out there for anyone who feels that the War Cleric underperforms. As someone who's tried a War Cleric five times now, I've never been satisfied with the subclass. I'm fine with being in the minority.

As to things being open to abuse: that's true, there are. And they'll get toned down and fixed. They're not going to be left open to abuse, but that's why I need feedback from other people. I didn't come here asking for feedback (I'm not the OP), but people have offered it anyways, and it's invaluable to making sure that this is the best rewrite it could be. Think of it this was: this is the first draft of a pet project. It's not going to be perfect right off the bat. I didn't expect it to be, and again that's why feedback is so helpful.

[DracoKnight]

Are you forgetting that you changed War Priest to allow "one melee weapon attack" as a bonus action rather than the "one weapon attack"? Not being able to use your level 1 class feature is a pretty significant encouragement not to use a ranged weapon.

Oops. That was in fact, a mistake on my part. I did not intend to do that. Thanks for catching it. War Priest was never intended to exclude ranged weapons in my rewrite.

EDIT: Daily SNAFU has been fixed.

[DonaldT]

I also STRONGLY dislike the heavy weapon discouragement, enough so that that feature alone would kill any interest I had in playing the domain. How about changing Fury of Battle to remove the restriction on heavy weapons, but add something such as "These additional uses of your War Priest ability cannot gain the benefit of Great Weapon Master"?

[DracoKnight]

.......Yeah, I think he did forget that one. >_>

>_>

<_<

I blame it on my state of pre-caffeination at the time.


I also STRONGLY dislike the heavy weapon discouragement, enough so that that feature alone would kill any interest I had in playing the domain. How about changing Fury of Battle to remove the restriction on heavy weapons, but add something such as "These additional uses of your War Priest ability cannot gain the benefit of Great Weapon Master"?

That's not a bad suggestion, but I would have to figure out how to make the wording work, since feats are a variant rule, and features should be balanced with or without them in play.

[Lord Il Palazzo]

I feel like the far more iconic image of the war priest is one who wields a warhammer and shield. That's the image I have encountered more often (personally) in my 10+ years of gaming (tabletop and video game). I didn't remove heavy weapons for thematic reasons, but for balance reasons. Starting at 5th level you can cast haste and no longer have to worry about the restriction while making the same number of attacks.That's a big part of my problem with this. It's very heavily based around fitting the subclass into one image of what it is to the point of excluding most others. Like my first post said, this turns every War Cleric into a sword and board berserker, adding fluff that only works with that and removing options that allow other styles.


Isn't that what Bless is for, though?That's like taking the healing Channel Divinity away from a Life Cleric because "Isn't that what Cure Wounds is for, though?"

[DonaldT]

Right, but it IS balanced without feats in play. It's only when they are in play that this clause comes into effect to keep it from becoming unbalanced.

[SterlingWren]

To everyone naysaying this Domain:

1) it's obvious to me that it's a first or second draft. There are GOING to be problems. Us mortals experience them, I didn't realize everything you've ever written was perfect on the first go.

2) If you think that there's no need for a Variant War Domain, that's fine. I'm glad you like the PHB version. From the responses that people have written to this thread it is apparent that your opinion is not the only opinion.

3) Constructive criticism is helpful. But if you're going to just poopoo the author's premise: that not everyone is satisfied with the Domain as written in the PHB; or criticize the work without any real drive to help improve it, then why are you here?

4) my suggested replacement for Ardent Assault: what about spending your reaction to add xd8 to your allies' weapon damage.

Have a good day, everyone. And FFS, criticize constructively, or not at all.

[DracoKnight]

That's a big part of my problem with this. It's very heavily based around fitting the subclass into one image of what it is to the point of excluding most others. Like my first post said, this turns every War Cleric into a sword and board berserker, adding fluff that only works with that and removing options that allow other styles.

I'll see what I can do to open it up to heavy weapons, but I honestly don't know how it will go, balance-wise.

And I'm definitely going to change the fluff away from "fury" in Fury of Battle. Take it in a more serene "I can get more attacks because my God is guiding my arm" sort of direction.


That's like taking the healing Channel Divinity away from a Life Cleric because "Isn't that what Cure Wounds is for, though?"

Fair enough, I guess. That doesn't change my dissatisfaction with the original ability.

[Lord Il Palazzo]

I'll see what I can do to open it up to heavy weapons, but I honestly don't know how it will go, balance-wise.It's only one extra attack per turn so I don't think it would be the end of the world balance-wise. The feat's overpowered, but I hate seeing that as an excuse to handicap a whole subclass, especially in a way that doesn't make a lot of sense outside of balance and outside of the context of that one feat.


And I'm definitely going to change the fluff away from "fury" in Fury of Battle. Take it in a more serene "I can get more attacks because my God is guiding my arm" sort of direction.The big problem as I see it is the reaction-to-damage element that kind of locks it into a berserker rage vibe. Would it be overpowered if you could just activate it as a bonus action? (Edit: You'd need a line that gave you another attack without a bonus action on the turn you spent yours to activate the feature, but that doesn't seem out of line. It could be modeled after how Spiritual Weapon does it if I'm remembering how that works correctly.)


Fair enough, I guess. That doesn't change my dissatisfaction with the original ability.To be fair, the PHB War Domain gives a lot of value in the first couple levels with its proficiencies, extra attacks when they matter well before most martials and more good non-cleric domain spells (especially Divine Favor) than other heavy armor subclasses. It makes sense that its Channel Divinity is a little weaker on the balance (at least until they get the ability to pass it around.)

[DracoKnight]

It's only one extra attack per turn so I don't think it would be the end of the world balance-wise. The feat's overpowered, but I hate seeing that as an excuse to handicap a whole subclass, especially in a way that doesn't make a lot of sense outside of balance and outside of the context of that one feat.

I hate doing it too, but I think I have a solution.


The big problem as I see it is the reaction-to-damage element that kind of locks it into a berserker rage vibe. Would it be overpowered if you could just activate it as a bonus action?

The issue I have with that is that you can then only start using War Priest on the next round. Maybe it could work as a reaction you expend on your turn? Or maybe *checks book* or maybe since there are some channel Divinities without an action cost, it could be that. But I have a thought that might render this moot.


To be fair, the PHB War Domain gives a lot of value in the first couple levels with its proficiencies, extra attacks when they matter well before most martials and more good non-cleric domain spells (especially Divine Favor) than other heavy armor subclasses. It makes sense that its Channel Divinity is a little weaker on the balance (at least until they get the ability to pass it around.)


So here's my idea: scrap Fury of Battle. That's unpopular enough to warrant scrapping.

What if instead the Variant War Domain gets Extra Attack at 6th level (Valor Bard, Bladelock, and Bladesinger all set precedent for having one Extra Attack & full spellcasting), and the Channel Divinity now gives you your choice between the Archery, Dueling, Great Weapon Fighting, and Two-Weapon Fighting Styles, with a duration of until the next time you take a short or long rest?

[SterlingWren]

What if instead the Variant War Domain gets Extra Attack at 6th level (Valor Bard, Bladelock, and Bladesinger all set precedent for having one Extra Attack & full spellcasting), and the Channel Divinity now gives you your choice between the Archery, Dueling, Great Weapon Fighting, and Two-Weapon Fighting Styles, with a duration of until the next time you take a short or long rest?

*sits back* .........Why the MOTHERF*CKING HELL doesn't the War Domain have Extra Attack? I'd not really thought of that...but WHY?! Valor Bards and Bladelocks are IN THE PHB.

*calms down* Yes, a priest empowered by a war god should totally get Extra Attack.

And I like the idea of giving them a Fighting Style. (Also I saw that you excluded the defensive-oriented FS options...saving those for a Protection Domain rework, eh? :smallwink: )

[GandalfTheWhite]

*sits back* .........Why the MOTHERF*CKING HELL doesn't the War Domain have Extra Attack? I'd not really thought of that...but WHY?! Valor Bards and Bladelocks are IN THE PHB.

*calms down* Yes, a priest empowered by a war god should totally get Extra Attack.

And I like the idea of giving them a Fighting Style. (Also I saw that you excluded the defensive-oriented FS options...saving those for a Protection Domain rework, eh? :smallwink: )

Seconded. All in favor? *everyone should raise their hands here unanimously* Motion carried.

[DonaldT]

So here's my idea: scrap Fury of Battle. That's unpopular enough to warrant scrapping.

What if instead the Variant War Domain gets Extra Attack at 6th level (Valor Bard, Bladelock, and Bladesinger all set precedent for having one Extra Attack & full spellcasting), and the Channel Divinity now gives you your choice between the Archery, Dueling, Great Weapon Fighting, and Two-Weapon Fighting Styles, with a duration of until the next time you take a short or long rest?

I like that idea a LOT!

[DracoKnight]

*sits back* .........Why the MOTHERF*CKING HELL doesn't the War Domain have Extra Attack? I'd not really thought of that...but WHY?! Valor Bards and Bladelocks are IN THE PHB.

*calms down* Yes, a priest empowered by a war god should totally get Extra Attack.

And I like the idea of giving them a Fighting Style.

Okay, this might be the direction I go in, then :smallbiggrin:


(Also I saw that you excluded the defensive-oriented FS options...saving those for a Protection Domain rework, eh? :smallwink: )

I will neither confirm nor deny anything :smallwink:

[DracoKnight]

I like that idea a LOT!

Okay, since this idea seems (so far) to be the favorite fix, I think I'll move in this direction. It solves all the issues with excluding weapon types, and Fury of Battle being too abusable.

[Requiemforlust]

Throw my name in the hat of people wanting Extra Attack + CD: Fighting Style.

[jaappleton]

Throw my name in the hat of people wanting Extra Attack + CD: Fighting Style.

Thirded. Fourthed? Fifth....ed.

[DracoKnight]

Thirded. Fourthed? Fifth....ed.

Fifth...ed(ition?) :smallbiggrin:

[Lord Il Palazzo]

So here's my idea: scrap Fury of Battle. That's unpopular enough to warrant scrapping.

What if instead the Variant War Domain gets Extra Attack at 6th level (Valor Bard, Bladelock, and Bladesinger all set precedent for having one Extra Attack & full spellcasting), and the Channel Divinity now gives you your choice between the Archery, Dueling, Great Weapon Fighting, and Two-Weapon Fighting Styles, with a duration of until the next time you take a short or long rest?Huh. Interesting. I'd personally like to see at lest Protection and maybe Defense included, but I can also see why they're not. Flavoring it as a divine weapon expertise would work well and explain why those aren't included. I really like the idea of being able to change you fighting style to whatever makes sense. (It kind of has me thinking about a fighter archetype with that ability...)

Extra Attack seems really good. There's a part of me that wonders if it's too good, since it presumably stacks with War Priest to be get up to three attacks without much difficulty but coming a level after martials get it and with certain limiters in place (like the concentration on Divine Favor and the Divine Strike feature only adding an extra d8 once per turn) I don't think it will break anything and it does a good job making the War Cleric feel like a cleric who's good at war.

[Requiemforlust]

Huh. Interesting. I'd personally like to see at lest Protection and maybe Defense included, but I can also see why they're not. Flavoring it as a divine weapon expertise would work well and explain why those aren't included. I really like the idea of being able to change you fighting style to whatever makes sense. (It kind of has me thinking about a fighter archetype with that ability...)

Extra Attack seems really good. There's a part of me that wonders if it's too good, since it presumably stacks with War Priest to be get up to three attacks without much difficulty but coming a level after martials get it and with certain limiters in place (like the concentration on Divine Favor and the Divine Strike feature only adding an extra d8 once per turn) I don't think it will break anything and it does a good job making the War Cleric feel like a cleric who's good at war.

Even with War Priest + Extra Attack, if you max out your WIS, you only have 5 uses of War Priest per log rest.

Also DracoKnight/The Knuckle updated the blog post with the new CD + Extra Attack.

[Lord Il Palazzo]

Even with War Priest + Extra Attack, if you max out your WIS, you only have 5 uses of War Priest per log rest.I know. Like I said, it isn't going to break anything. My point is just that the War Cleric has some nice tricks to pump out extra damage on its attacks, but they aren't things that really worry me because they tend to have other limitations on them.

[Requiemforlust]

I know. Like I said, it isn't going to break anything. My point is just that the War Cleric has some nice tricks to pump out extra damage on its attacks, but they aren't things that really worry me because they tend to have other limitations on them.

Very true! I like this most recent incarnation. Also, I think that it's also definitely the most geared toward crowd-pleasing, but also maintains balance.

[DracoKnight]

Made the changes.

[Scuronotte]

So, this went up on the Middle Finger of Vecna (http://mfov.magehandpress.com/2017/07/divine-domain-war-variant.html) blog today. I completely, 100% like this better than the PHB version, and it'll be the War Domain I use in all future games I DM.

What are y'all's thoughts on it? Where does it sit in terms of power level? Is it even needed in your mind? I kinda agree with the author that the PHB War Domain is mechanically sound, but boring. I think that this livens it up quite a bit :smallbiggrin:

It is very similiar to the one we have on DMSguild with the fighting styles and extra attack. Except we just have them gain a fighting style vs associated with channel divinity

http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172228

[coolAlias]

I've considered giving War Clerics an Extra Attack in my own game, and perhaps even Tempest Clerics. Both of those domains feel like they need some extra oomph in battle, at least flavor-wise.

I do wish that the D&D Cleric wasn't so married to the concept of an armored holy warrior that also happens to be a full spellcaster. I think it would be more interesting if becoming a holy warrior was a subclass option, as it would be to become a devout holy man with barely any martial expertise at all, more akin to a wizard.

It used to be the Paladin filled the holy warrior role, but 5e seems to have decoupled them from the gods somewhat.

[Biggstick]

I've considered giving War Clerics an Extra Attack in my own game, and perhaps even Tempest Clerics. Both of those domains feel like they need some extra oomph in battle, at least flavor-wise.

I do wish that the D&D Cleric wasn't so married to the concept of an armored holy warrior that also happens to be a full spellcaster. I think it would be more interesting if becoming a holy warrior was a subclass option, as it would be to become a devout holy man with barely any martial expertise at all, more akin to a wizard.

It used to be the Paladin filled the holy warrior role, but 5e seems to have decoupled them from the gods somewhat.

I'd like to expound on this. What you've done with the War Cleric now is give it a second attack (similar to Valor Bards and Pact of the Blade Warlocks who take the proper invocation) and a way to change their fighting style. Personally, I like it. I think it's a great take on the War Cleric.

With your modifications though, why would someone choose to play a Paladin vs playing this new holy warrior that you've created within War Cleric? With this character at level 6, you can do what a Vengeance Paladin is doing at level 9 (having two attacks and buffing yourself with Haste). You're running into melee combat with a self buffed Death Ward or Freedom of Movement at level 7 compared to a Paladin's level 13. You can throw out Healing Words, Spiritual Weapon, and Spirit Guardians, and still have the same combat effectiveness as a Paladin. You're essentially made a Paladin out of the War Cleric, and still allowed it to retain full spell casting.

Don't get me wrong, the modifications you've made sound great, and I'd love to play what has been designed. But you've made the Paladin's role pointless, as anyone with a lick of sense would play this Cleric archtype.

For actual constructive criticism, and to keep the class balanced/fun, lets take your Channel Divinity. I like the choosing of a fighting style per short rest. Let's expand that though, and allow the War Cleric at Cleric level 6 to give allies a fighting style as well. I don't have an idea for the number of allies this could include, but buffing allies with a fighting style would be pretty sweet.

Something else that could be changed is War Priest bonus action attacks. Allow this resource to be refreshed on short rests once you reach a certain level in War Cleric (somewhere between 6-10 feels right imo.) This would be similar to how Bardic Inspiration goes from a long rest recovery mechanic to a short rest recovery mechanic.

[jaappleton]

I'd like to expound on this. What you've done with the War Cleric now is give it a second attack (similar to Valor Bards and Pact of the Blade Warlocks who take the proper invocation) and a way to change their fighting style. Personally, I like it. I think it's a great take on the War Cleric.

With your modifications though, why would someone choose to play a Paladin vs playing this new holy warrior that you've created within War Cleric? With this character at level 6, you can do what a Vengeance Paladin is doing at level 9 (having two attacks and buffing yourself with Haste). You're running into melee combat with a self buffed Death Ward or Freedom of Movement at level 7 compared to a Paladin's level 13. You can throw out Healing Words, Spiritual Weapon, and Spirit Guardians, and still have the same combat effectiveness as a Paladin. You're essentially made a Paladin out of the War Cleric, and still allowed it to retain full spell casting.

Don't get me wrong, the modifications you've made sound great, and I'd love to play what has been designed. But you've made the Paladin's role pointless, as anyone with a lick of sense would play this Cleric archtype.

For actual constructive criticism, and to keep the class balanced/fun, lets take your Channel Divinity. I like the choosing of a fighting style per short rest. Let's expand that though, and allow the War Cleric at Cleric level 6 to give allies a fighting style as well. I don't have an idea for the number of allies this could include, but buffing allies with a fighting style would be pretty sweet.

Something else that could be changed is War Priest bonus action attacks. Allow this resource to be refreshed on short rests once you reach a certain level in War Cleric (somewhere between 6-10 feels right imo.) This would be similar to how Bardic Inspiration goes from a long rest recovery mechanic to a short rest recovery mechanic.

Completely disagree.

Paladins have Smite. Several get immunity to some very nasty effects. Paladins have their Aura. Ancients can mitigate magical damage. Vengeance gets Oath of Enmity to decimate a single enemy, and Devotion gets a similar ability.

Paladins absolutely still have their place.

[Lord Il Palazzo]

Don't get me wrong, the modifications you've made sound great, and I'd love to play what has been designed. But you've made the Paladin's role pointless, as anyone with a lick of sense would play this Cleric archtype.In my experience, a big part of the draw of Paladins has been the burst damage of Divine Smite
combined with the excellent magic defense of Aura of Protection. This domain may step on the Paladin's toes a little bit but I definitely don't think either of them makes the other pointless.

Looking a little more closely at how the update was implemented, I would kind of prefer if the fighting style was scaled back. Having it be something you could activate in battle (either as a bonus action or as part of an attack action with a weapon that qualifies) and that lasted for some limited duration (whether one minute, ten, or an hour) would mean a War Cleric couldn't always have a fighting style which would ease he subclass out of Paladin territory. It would also make it both more likely that a Cleric would use the ability multiple times to pick different styles as needed (instead of always waking up and praying for their favorite) and to actually make the expended Channel Divinity feel like a cost (I imagine a lot of War Clerics starting their day with Prayer of the Warrior and then a short rest to get back the spent CD of their party isn't rushed to get underway, essentially removing the cost entirely while leaving the benefit all day).

[DracoKnight]

The complaints about a cleric getting Extra Attack have been heard, and it has been scrapped and replaced with "Sacramental Retribution."

[GandalfTheWhite]

The complaints about a cleric getting Extra Attack have been heard, and it has been scrapped and replaced with "Sacramental Retribution."

*Looks at Sacramental Retribution* That feels MUCH more Cleric-y.

[DracoKnight]

*Looks at Sacramental Retribution* That feels MUCH more Cleric-y.

Oh, good! That's the reaction I was going for! :smallbiggrin:

[Requiemforlust]

Oh, good! That's the reaction I was going for! :smallbiggrin:

You owe the pun jar about $50.

[DracoKnight]

You owe the pun jar about $50.

*gladly puts a crisp $50 bill in the jar* I'm glad someone caught that :smallbiggrin:

[Zalabim]

I don't have any problem with the standard War domain. It feels like a kind of fighty-leader. As for the changes, the only change in the spell list is Haste instead of Spirit Guardians. First, it's an off-class-list spell, so that's potentially an upgrade. Also, casting Haste usually means you want to stay somewhere safe afterwards so you don't lose concentration. I wouldn't recommend the spell for a down-in-the-dirt archetype, but it'd be good on a War cleric archer. Not sure if that's what you're going for.

I don't see any alternative for Spirit Guardians that really stands out at the moment. If Crusader's Mantle is the offensive option, then maybe Beacon of Hope, Mass Healing Word, Protection from Energy, or Revivify could be the defensive option, to keep it within the Cleric class. Spirit Guardians does encourage the caster to be in the right place, for a War cleric, to benefit from the spell.

I don't like that this domain doesn't have a use for its channel divinity. The class is given up to 3 uses per short rest, but their only use is a fighting style that can last all day and the default Turn Undead. It needs something else to apply CD to. That makes up a big part of a domain's identity.

The classic level 6 CD really helped give the archetype that leader-role feeling. [Sacramental Retribution] makes it look like a defender, which is also a fine role for the War domain. Maybe this can be morphed into a CD ability with the same theme.


To everyone naysaying this Domain:

3) Constructive criticism is helpful. But if you're going to just poopoo the author's premise: that not everyone is satisfied with the Domain as written in the PHB; or criticize the work without any real drive to help improve it, then why are you here?
So it isn't a completely one-sided circle-jerk that becomes the breeding ground for bad ideas to infect other discussions. I don't see a problem in this thread, but that'd generally be why I wouldn't preemptively shut out all dissenting opinions. I've seen silence used as approval before. I'm totally fine with the PHB War domain, but this doesn't look broken or anything.

Have a good day, everyone. And FFS, criticize constructively, or not at all.
How's this: If you want to make a domain that buffs itself then wades into battle like an old-fashioned CoDzilla, you could call it the Glory[hog] domain.

All I'm really saying is I looked at it and I still prefer the PHB version. This domain hasn't changed my life.

[Bugado25]

I dislike the FS channel divinity, I prefer something more active as the feature.

And Sacramental Retribution has the problem of overlaping part of the Sentinel Feat (Although the feature you created allows for ranged attacks, while sentinel does not).

I think something closer to one of the previous versions would be better.

I would just change when you gain some abilities.

For example

1st level - War Priest and Proficiencies

2nd Level - A version of Ardent Assault as Channel Divinity:

" When you or a creature within 5 feet of you hits a target with an attack, you can use your reaction to make the attack count as a critical hit for the purpose of the damage roll."

I prefer making it a critical hit instead of maximaxing damage to avoid stacking it with criticals.

6th level - Channel Divinity: Fury of the gods without the weapon restrictions.

I think fury of the gods is too strong as a 2nd level ability, unless you put the restrictions on heavy and ranged weapons that were present before, but those restrictions add against the theme, especially the heavy weapons one.

I would also not give haste along side fury of the gods. At 6th you have 2 uses of CD per short rest, that is enough for having 2 attacks for almost every combat. Adding haste to that makes it too strong.

8th level - Divine Strike

17th level - Your modified Avatar of Battle.

[Scuronotte]

I still prefer the extra attack feature for level 6. It is a war cleric;someone who should excel in battle as a Calor Bard or Blade Warlock. I don't think it takes away from the paladin

I do agree that there needs to be another expenditure of channel divinity and fighting styles until long rest is basically a free combat styles. Maybe make it

You can use your Channel Divinity to choose a fighting style. This fighting style lasts for 1 minute.

[D-naras]

Maybe make the CD something that makes you safer in melee?

Divine Valor: During your turn you can use your Channel Divinity to gain temporary hit points equal to half your cleric level + your wisdom modifier. For 1 minute and while you have temporary hit points from this ability, you make Concentration saving throws with advantage and whenever you make a weapon attack (maybe melee only?) you gain the same amount of temporary hit points.

[DracoKnight]

Personally, I want to leave Sacramental Retribution as the 6th level feature, but I could change the CD to something more active.

"As a reaction when you roll initiative, you can expend your Channel Divinity to gain the benefits of one of the following fighting styles for 1 minute..."