Frontline melee Rogue build

[JohnDaBarr]

Got an idea for sword&board High Elf Rogue Swashbuckler that relies on Booming Blade and Sneak Attack for damage coupled with shield and medium armor for AC. I am playing in a ''no multiclass'' environment so this is just a pure rogue build. If multiclassing were possible then I guess 1 or 2 lvls of Fighter would bring +1 in AC and free up a feat slot.

8, 17, 14, 9, 14, 12 High Elf
Lvl 4 Moderately Armored
Lvl 8 Medium Armor Master (if it's possible to get magical +1 light armor then MAM is unnecessary)
Lvl 10 ASI Dex
Lvl 12 Blade Mastery (UA feat) or Shield Master (assuming expertise in Athletics)

At lvl 8 that would be 18 Dex, 20 AC, average HP 59 and 2d8+4+4d6 dmg with a Rapier on hit. High AC coupled with Rogues Uncanny Dodge creates a decent tank and damage dealer since the Swashbucklers mobility guarantees extra dmg from Booming Blade.

Any thoughts or advice?

Edited Blade Mastery from AC.

[Tetrasodium]

Got an idea for sword&board High Elf Rogue Swashbuckler that relies on Booming Blade and Sneak Attack for damage coupled with shield and medium armor for AC. I am playing in a ''no multiclass'' environment so this is just a pure rogue build. If multiclassing were possible then I guess 1 or 2 lvls of Fighter would bring +1 in AC and free up a feat slot.

8, 17, 14, 9, 14, 12 High Elf
Lvl 4 Moderately Armored
Lvl 8 Medium Armor Master (if it's possible to get magical +1 light armor then MAM is unnecessary)
Lvl 10 ASI Dex
Lvl 12 Blade Mastery (UA feat) or Shield Master (assuming expertise in Athletics)

At lvl 8 that would be 18 Dex, 20 AC (21 with Blade Mastery), average HP 59 and 2d8+4+4d6 dmg with a Rapier on hit. High AC coupled with Rogues Uncanny Dodge creates a decent tank and damage dealer since the Swashbucklers mobility guarantees extra dmg from Booming Blade.

Any thoughts or advice?


The no MC hurts more than you admit, a with 14 wis, a level of cleric would free up 2 ASI's &give you some spellcasting perks

[PeteNutButter]

Unless you find magic medium armor, MAM is a wasted feat on anyone boosting dex. Just boost your dex at level 8 and use light armor. There are loads of feats you can have that are better than +1 AC.

[JohnDaBarr]

The no MC hurts more than you admit, a with 14 wis, a level of cleric would free up 2 ASI's &give you some spellcasting perks

Indeed, just Bless could go a long way. It's could be a good pick and I gives more to work with than a level of Fighter.

Personally, I like to take decent Wis since it is a common save plus Rogues do get prof on it later so it can be handy in late games.

[Coranhann]

Medium armor is 15 + 3 = 18 with two feats investment.

Light armor is 12 + 5 = 17 with two feats investment, including one which would provide +1 to something else (i.e Wis, so you can take Resilient Wis afterward)

This losses you 1 AC, but makes you more efficient at anything dex related, and open the all important Resilient Wis (as losing control of your character in the frontline is a shameful display)

[DivisibleByZero]

Medium armor is 15 + 3 = 18 with two feats investment.

Light armor is 12 + 5 = 17 with two feats investment, including one which would provide +1 to something else (i.e Wis, so you can take Resilient Wis afterward)

This losses you 1 AC, but makes you more efficient at anything dex related, and open the all important Resilient Wis (as losing control of your character in the frontline is a shameful display)

He gets proficiency in Wis saves later, because that's a Rogue feature.
Res: Wis on a Rogue is a gigantic waste of an ASI.

[Coranhann]

To be honest : I completely missed the fact that rogues got wisdom save proficiency.

This being said, they get it by level 15th ... which is both very late and at the point where most campaign stops. Sooo, my advice is not that great anymore, but still worth something, depending on the scope of the campaign.

[JohnDaBarr]

Yup, Rogues get Wis prof at lvl 15 and so I can take Resilience on Con later and with that will have all major saves covered.

Still, with no multiclass feats are the only way to get prof with shields... and I still can not comprehend why Medium Armor Master does not give +1 to Dex...

[Easy_Lee]

Shield master won't be much use if you want to use a weapon cantrip. You have to take the attack action to use the bonus action shove, and casting a spell isn't the attack action.

[JohnDaBarr]

Shield master won't be much use if you want to use a weapon cantrip. You have to take the attack action to use the bonus action shove, and casting a spell isn't the attack action.

Correct. I missed that part.
SM is off the drawing board.

[Naanomi]

Note that you can use the Variant SCAG half-Elf to get the Booming Blade cantrip, and probably have better stats lined up for a swashbuckler than a high Elf does

[DivisibleByZero]

To be honest : I completely missed the fact that rogues got wisdom save proficiency.

This being said, they get it by level 15th ... which is both very late and at the point where most campaign stops. Sooo, my advice is not that great anymore, but still worth something, depending on the scope of the campaign.

Well, to be perfectly honest, if you're playing your Rogue to its fullest potential, then Wis saves are largely irrelevant.
If your enemy can't see you (cunning action hide right at level 2) then your enemy can't target you with anything requiring a Wis save.

[JohnDaBarr]

Note that you can use the Variant SCAG half-Elf to get the Booming Blade cantrip, and probably have better stats lined up for a swashbuckler than a high Elf does

Am I reading this correctly!? The SCAG basically says trade two for one, two skills for one specific skill, or in my case two skills for a cantrip. Still, Half-Elf master race would fit nicely in this build especially if I ever do it with some multiclassing alowed.

[Diebo]

As mentioned, Shield Master doesn't stack that well with a single-class cantrip-wielding rogue. You can't bonus action shove and cast booming blade, and you want that bonus action to go into hide, dash, or disengage.

You only get one attack, and you need that one to hit.

A good "swashbuckler" for cantrip attacks like booming blade is an arcane trickster with the mobile feat (disengage until you get mobile). Swap Charisma and Intelligence. You can get an owl familiar to gain advantage on your one big attack and grant your sneak attack. You'd get access to the shield spell. As an arcane trickster, you can pick up booming blade (freeing you up to play other races).

With a familiar getting you advantage, you can probably stick with medium armor, but with 17 AC, you could boost that to 20 for for the AC and to hit. Or go Moderately Armored at level 4 to get 18 dex and shields. Level 8 pick up mobile.

Note that booming blade bonus damage isn't quite as consistent as you might think, depending on the DM and your party. Most of the time you will probably find that the opponent is already in melee range with another character so won't be moving, or can just pull out a ranged weapon and attack. Balance that with the consequences of a missed sneak attack. As a Swashbuckler, you could take that missed attack and use a bonus action to try again.

I played a one-shot with a 5th level arcane trickster using booming blade, medium armor, and shield. I think the bonus secondary move damage triggered maybe 10-20 percent of the hits (I think it triggered twice total). I know I missed my attack at least twice (and didn't get the sneak attack damage).

[Naanomi]

Am I reading this correctly!? The SCAG basically says trade two for one, two skills for one specific skill, or in my case two skills for a cantrip. Still, Half-Elf master race would fit nicely in this build especially if I ever do it with some multiclassing alowed.
Normally the two skills are more valuable; but this is a case where I see an argument for the cantrip instead. Swashbuckler likes Charisma, doesn't need INT; might squeeze more CON out of it too since you are in the front line. Pointbuy stats like 8/16/16/8/10/16

[DivisibleByZero]

Note that booming blade bonus damage isn't quite as consistent as you might think, depending on the DM and your party. Most of the time you will probably find that the opponent is already in melee range with another character so won't be moving, or can just pull out a ranged weapon and attack. Balance that with the consequences of a missed sneak attack. As a Swashbuckler, you could take that missed attack and use a bonus action to try again.

This.
BB is good on a Rogue, but it's also highly over rated.
TWF is strictly better.
TWF has *slightly* lower damage on a hit, but is *much* more consistent, meaning it's actually higher damage over time. And if your first attack hits, you're free to use Cunning Action instead of TWF.
BB is only better if you already know, going into your turn, that you'll absolutely need to use Cunning Action whether your attack hits or not.

[JohnDaBarr]

As mentioned, Shield Master doesn't stack that well with a single-class cantrip-wielding rogue. You can't bonus action shove and cast booming blade, and you want that bonus action to go into hide, dash, or disengage.

You only get one attack, and you need that one to hit.

A good "swashbuckler" for cantrip attacks like booming blade is an arcane trickster with the mobile feat (disengage until you get mobile). Swap Charisma and Intelligence. You can get an owl familiar to gain advantage on your one big attack and grant your sneak attack. You'd get access to the shield spell. As an arcane trickster, you can pick up booming blade (freeing you up to play other races).

With a familiar getting you advantage, you can probably stick with medium armor, but with 17 AC, you could boost that to 20 for for the AC and to hit. Or go Moderately Armored at level 4 to get 18 dex and shields. Level 8 pick up mobile.

Note that booming blade bonus damage isn't quite as consistent as you might think, depending on the DM and your party. Most of the time you will probably find that the opponent is already in melee range with another character so won't be moving, or can just pull out a ranged weapon and attack. Balance that with the consequences of a missed sneak attack. As a Swashbuckler, you could take that missed attack and use a bonus action to try again.

I played a one-shot with a 5th level arcane trickster using booming blade, medium armor, and shield. I think the bonus secondary move damage triggered maybe 10-20 percent of the hits (I think it triggered twice total). I know I missed my attack at least twice (and didn't get the sneak attack damage).

Yes, just one attack is a bit of a bummer but that can be mitigated with help from the party buffer and switching to bonus action attack if the target is especially hard to hit is always an option. Also, all of this depends at what level we play but in this case it will go well beyond lvl 8 and Swashbucklers lvl 9 ability actually works quite well Booming Blade.

The idea for this build came when I was required to tank quite a good number of times as a Rogue and to everyone's surprise thanks to Uncanny Dodge Rogues can actually tank, so now I want to see how does a 20+ AC Rogue tank perform.

[Easy_Lee]

If you want to play a rogue tank, have you considered grappling? Rogues are quite good at it when built properly. Sixteen strength is plenty for most purposes.

[Coranhann]

TWF also opens the feat for +1AC and slightly better damage (not that it's your goal, but it's never lost).

This being said, BB offers an incentive for monsters not to move, which is good for the rest of the group.

So, you might decide between the two not based on efficiency but on what each brings. (or take both ...)

[Diebo]

If you have 17 DEX and want to play a front-line tank rogue using a shield for high AC and booming blade, I think the Arcane Trickster fits the role better than Swashbuckler. Swashbucklers really shine with two weapons.

Level 4 pick up moderately armored to get DEX to 18, proficiency in shield, and mage armor spell (from Arcane Trickster level 3). Your AC is 19.

Level 8 ASI Dex +2, your AC is 20. You have the occasional shield spell for AC 25. You have evasion, and can use your reaction to cut one attack damage in half. And you have booming blade to help mitigate the loss of the bonus action attack/missed sneak attack.

[Naanomi]

I have considered a similar build starting with one level in Fighter and built out as a Strength-based rogue. In this case, I went with Fallen Aasimar for the long-term single attack damage increase.

Another option to consider (again with a single level Dip in Fighter, in this case at level 2) is to use a whip. A very slight damage decrease; but a bigger range of combat control; and booming blade (via Spell-sniper) is great with attacks you don't even need to be adjacent to enemies to initiate

[Lombra]

Since you want to stay in the frontline and therefore stealth is not your priority, MAM is actually pretty good: it doesn't give +1 AC, it gives you +3 because of shield proficiency. I'd scrap BB unless you really want the magic vibe in your character, shield master can be fun, considering that you should expertise athletics, and far more consistent than BB. There isn't much else for a frontline single class rogue, shove your way through the enemies and sneak attack most of the times (it's plenty of damage even without spells).

Thinking about it; shield master isn't that useful, expertise athletics will cover your need of shoving if you have to but since you are swashbuckling you don't need advantage to sneak attack in 1v1, unless you really want added battlefield control. Bonus action shove to get advantage is cool, but I wouldn't spend a feat on it.

So I would pick MAM at 4 and then worry about DEX and CON, ideally I'd try to max them both (prioritizing dexterity, missing an attack is a huge deal for rogues)

If you are not dead set on shields, swap MAM for dual wielder, it bumps your AC and significantly increases your effectiveness giving you two chances at sneak attacking (not that you couldn't do it normally with light weapons, but it gives more benefits than MAM if you don't take advantage of shields proficiency)

[Khrysaes]

Man, if you could take a couple levels in fighter, it would be awesome, either for battlemaster OR champion. Especially since you wouldnt need the Moderately armored any more. Maybe 4 levels to cover the loss of the ASI, however, you lose Elusive and 17th archetype feature. and capstone

Suggestions:

If fighter: Mariner Fighting style, since you aren't likely to be using the heavy armor anyways.

Regardless of Fighter or Not:

Elven Accuracy Feat(UA), gives 3d20 on advantage instead of 2d20. Increased chance to hit at minimum, and crit at best, which is also why it works well with champion. Works well with Shield Expertise too though.

[JohnDaBarr]

Thank you on your input ppl, it is much appreciated.

For the pure Rogue build it appears not much can be done considering the no multiclass environment, still as it stands I'll probably skip the MAM feat because +1 armor will be available relatively soon in the game.


As for a multiclass approach to this build it appears to me that 2 lvls of Trickery Domain Cleric fit very well both thematically and mechanically. I offers access to shield, an impressive toolbox in form of cantrips and lvl 1 spells, good domain spells and two domain abilities any Rogue would sell a kingdom to have!! Advantage to stealth for anyone that lasts up to an hour and 10 rounds of almost guaranteed advantage on attacks per short rest! Even taking 4 lvls looks tempting considering it offers access to Mirror Image and Pass Without Trace plus normal lvl 2 Cleric spells...

[djreynolds]

Got an idea for sword&board High Elf Rogue Swashbuckler that relies on Booming Blade and Sneak Attack for damage coupled with shield and medium armor for AC. I am playing in a ''no multiclass'' environment so this is just a pure rogue build. If multiclassing were possible then I guess 1 or 2 lvls of Fighter would bring +1 in AC and free up a feat slot.

8, 17, 14, 9, 14, 12 High Elf
Lvl 4 Moderately Armored
Lvl 8 Medium Armor Master (if it's possible to get magical +1 light armor then MAM is unnecessary)
Lvl 10 ASI Dex
Lvl 12 Blade Mastery (UA feat) or Shield Master (assuming expertise in Athletics)

At lvl 8 that would be 18 Dex, 20 AC, average HP 59 and 2d8+4+4d6 dmg with a Rapier on hit. High AC coupled with Rogues Uncanny Dodge creates a decent tank and damage dealer since the Swashbucklers mobility guarantees extra dmg from Booming Blade.

Any thoughts or advice?

Edited Blade Mastery from AC.

This works. I like the build, it works for a non-multiclass game

MAM is expensive, but not terrible. 20AC, with half-plate and shield

But it can wait till you've maxed out dex with level 8 and 10 ASI

For now... you can live with breastplate and shield for AC18 and still stealth

Blade mastery is awesome, but 20 dex provides +5 to hit and + 5 damage, +5 to all your dex skills.... so grab 20 dex first

And at level 12 decide between blade mastery for another +1 to hit/dmg or MAM for +2 AC