What is the point of the Creation sphere (SoP)?

[SangoProduction]

Spheres of Power has this Creation sphere, which can create temporary objects. I'm trying to think of a reason why you would ever do that though, which isn't eclipsed by other spheres. What challenge could it uniquely solve? So what do we do when we are completely incapable of thinking for ourselves with regards to D&D-esque rules? Ask the playground!

So...maybe you need to move across a chasm, so you create a bridge? But teleportation or telekinesis both handle that already.

Maybe you are captured and put in jail, but for some reason, was not placed in an antimagic field, so you make a set of thieve's tools? (Let's be honest, the chances of this scenario is almost nil.) Well, again, telekinesis could solve that (and arguably, both ways, it would take the divided creation talent to create tools, so you're not winning out in that department either).

It could be used to arm your party, who was, for some reason, completely naked. (Again, how often does that happen?) I guess that works. I mean, you'd need divided creation, and if you are still low enough level where nonmagical equipment isn't so bad, you probably can't equip the whole party without also having Larger Creation. At which point, that's a good deal of investment for a likely rare situation.

The one thing I can think of us passing off some Creation'd items to venders for a quick buck. Then again, I would think that venders would heavily invest in appraise. So maybe just using Mind sphere on them and make them give you money straight up would be a better bet.

[Aipaca]

The aesthetic of creating anvils to drop on people? Enabling character concepts (and creating things out of nothing is a pretty widespread magical character concept) is one of the guiding principles of SoP as far as I can tell.

[Psyren]

So...maybe you need to move across a chasm, so you create a bridge? But teleportation or telekinesis both handle that already.

Those get YOU across a chasm. Making a bridge gets many more people across, and moreover they can do it on their own, without needing to burn your own actions/resources for each one.

I'm not even that familiar with SoP but this logic seems strange.

[EldritchWeaver]

Those get YOU across a chasm. Making a bridge gets many more people across, and moreover they can do it on their own, without needing to burn your own actions/resources for each one.

I'm not even that familiar with SoP but this logic seems strange.

Well, if you have Telekinesis in a way that can make you fly over chasms, you likely are also in a position to fly others instead over the chasm. Either this doesn't cost you any additional spellpoints or you go the way and choose Flight and Effortless Telekinesis, so the other people can fly on there own for hours. Also, with CL 1 the creation might last long enough get people over the "chasm", but the construct is so small that you can also jump the "chasm".

So I'd say, it is a good question, what Creation is supposed to be good for.

[Eldariel]

I guess creating poisons/water to fill holes and drown enemies/rubble walls to prepare for area defense/etc. might work? Not familiar with SoP but those are some of the frequent uses of Creation spells in 3.5.

[Psyren]

Well, if you have Telekinesis in a way that can make you fly over chasms, you likely are also in a position to fly others instead over the chasm. Either this doesn't cost you any additional spellpoints or you go the way and choose Flight and Effortless Telekinesis, so the other people can fly on there own for hours. Also, with CL 1 the creation might last long enough get people over the "chasm", but the construct is so small that you can also jump the "chasm".

So I'd say, it is a good question, what Creation is supposed to be good for.

I'm envisioning civilians/commoners in this example. Say, helping to evacuate or relocate a village. Even a small gap can be too much to get mules and laden carts across without a bridge.

[Goaty14]

Those get YOU across a chasm. Making a bridge gets many more people across, and moreover they can do it on their own, without needing to burn your own actions/resources for each one.

I'm not even that familiar with SoP but this logic seems strange.

Telekinesis could probably get everybody across, provided the spell's range exceeds the gap. EDIT 400ft + 40ft per CL That said, you can only move one at a time at 20 ft per round, and it lasts 1 round per CL, alternatively, you could hurl 25 pounds per CL of creatures within 10 feet of each other to a place of 10 ft per CL.

[Psyren]

Telekinesis could probably get everybody across, provided the spell's range exceeds the gap.

By physically moving each person and their belongings, correct?

[Goaty14]

By physically moving each person and their belongings, correct?

I edited the original post. Would probably require multiple castings, yes.

[EldritchWeaver]

I'm envisioning civilians/commoners in this example. Say, helping to evacuate or relocate a village. Even a small gap can be too much to get mules and laden carts across without a bridge.

I suppose, but without Lengthened Creation you run out of SP quickly.


By physically moving each person and their belongings, correct?

If you mean by this that this has to be done sequentially, with everyone having to wait for their turn, yes. A bridge can pipeline things and speed up this. But with Flight you have also effectively a pipeline. You might pay more SPs, but aren't bound to one physical location.

[Psyren]

If you mean by this that this has to be done sequentially, with everyone having to wait for their turn, yes. A bridge can pipeline things and speed up this. But with Flight you have also effectively a pipeline. You might pay more SPs, but aren't bound to one physical location.


Telekinesis could probably get everybody across, provided the spell's range exceeds the gap. EDIT 400ft + 40ft per CL That said, you can only move one at a time at 20 ft per round, and it lasts 1 round per CL, alternatively, you could hurl 25 pounds per CL of creatures within 10 feet of each other to a place of 10 ft per CL.

Thanks for the explanation.

Lifting a village across individually sounds time-consuming, and throwing mules and carts over the gap sounds dangerous. So I see advantages to the bridge approach here.

[SangoProduction]

OK, for sake of moving this forward, let's say that the bridge is viable at just 10ft by 10ft (1 inch thick) per level. I never said it wasn't, merely that you'd do better elsewhere, if it was ever a concern (as that's quite the narrow concern to have something devoted to).

Any more uses?

[Psyren]

It certainly is narrow/situational, I never said it wasn't. But not every ability needs to have broad applicability. Every magic system has niche uses, if only so you can stick it on an NPC that the PCs then enlist/protect/bargain with to solve that specific problem.

[khadgar567]

You know creation opens the possiblities to play archer emiya without wbl as gate pop a level or two in to armiger and you are playing noctis lucis caleum from final fantasy or hell the edward elrick is playable from get go via creation sphere

[TheIronGolem]

It's true that Creation is one of the more talent-light spheres, at least until its handbook is released. However, the "chasm" scenario is a classic example of a problem that can be solved many different ways, so it should hardly be surprising that Creation has no monopoly here. As for other uses...

Need to smuggle a weapon into the party? No you don't, just make one when you need it.

With Potent Alteration, you can perform a touch-attack Sunder that bypass hardness. **** your Adamantine Full Plate, son.

Unexpectedly trekking through the desert? Expanded Materials means you won't die of thirst, and Lengthened Creation means you can always make shelter that'll at least outlast most sandstorms.

Good luck keeping someone in a prison cell who can dissolve the bars with a touch.

About to get spotted somewhere you shouldn't be? Create something big enough to block line of sight.

[Mehangel]

While it is true that individual obstacles that the Creation sphere can solve are usually better handled with different spheres, no other sphere can handle all the obstacles that the Creation sphere can solve.

In addition, the Creation sphere shines even further when combined with other spheres (such as Enhancement and Telekinesis).

[Omnificer]

One situation that I've thought of involves the defense of a home or small town against a (relatively) large group of enemies. As a caveat, Creation absolutely needs more talents and I don't recommend focusing entirely on Creation at level 1. You could arm 5 peasants with crossbows or turn a gate or door to stone for an hour, but you'll be out of points for the day.
I also consider the Advanced Talents necessary to be effective as a Creation focused mage. There are already too few talents to leave any out and they don't seem to be quite as crazy as creating a volcano.

A level 5 Incanter will have 10 talents which could almost get you the whole Sphere or let you branch out. I don't consider the Creation Drawbacks good for someone focused on the Sphere, but excellent for dabblers. Focus, Somatic, and Verbal Casting are reasonable general drawbacks to take though. Assuming 16 Intelligence, we have 11 spell points, including from our general drawbacks.

Before the battle, for a period of up to 5 hours per spell point, the Incanter could arm 55 peasants with Crossbows with Lengthened and Divided Creation (less crossbows if he wants to actually give them ammo too.) The Craft DC for crossbows is 15 and with 5 ranks in Craft (Weapons) the Incanter has +11. You normally can take 10 on Craft checks and I would consider the time before the battle calm enough to allow enough focus to do so. During the battle, the Incanter would clearly need to roll.

Alternatively for every 2 spell points they could reinforce 50ft x 10ft x 1in of wooden wall by turning it to steel for 5 hours. That's 250ft of wall and 1 spell point left over to arm 5 peasants with crossbows.
You could save some of this reinforcement for during the battle too. The bandits set the gates on fire? Well, now they're steel, putting out the fire, reinforcing the gate, and having caused the bandits to waste resources (Or if you're the one attacking a poor hamlet? Now the gates are paper.) On the flip side, their siege towers and battering rams are now flammable paper. There are several more logistics that need to be considered, like if the town is small enough enough for that amount of steel wall to be at all relevant, but the same ideas can be scaled down to make a single large house impenetrable and still have points left over. During the battle try using Distant Creation to drop a simple maze in front of the attackers, keeping them in the crossbow killing zone for as long as possible. If you have outright days to prepare you can use Forge to make permanent bridges, moats, walls, etc to provide an enduring defense once you leave.

Going on the attack? Paper gates or hidden permanent doors where there weren't any before. High enough level? Siege weapons. With enough Enhancement talents they could fire themselves and all the peasants would need to do is load. Battle turned south? Escape down the river with all your peasants on your new fleet of boats (and make shore before your CL worth of hours is up.)

To be clear, other spheres can create fortifications or basic infrastructure. Other spheres can summon temporary weak soldiers. Other spheres can weaken enemy infrastructure. Other spheres can can overcome obstacles for multiple people. Oftentimes more permanently than Creation. But can any sphere do all of them? And for the sheer volume of people? Creation isn't the best Sphere, even if you're creative, but I can easily see how the Creation Handbook could completely change that.

TL:DR; I consider this Sphere perfect for logistics and as a force multiplier for anything involving existing infrastructure. With time and planning, any adventurers can turn a town into the final battle in the Seven Samurai. But a high level Creation mage can get it done in a day. And when the battle's over they can spend some down time leaving the civilians a fortress.

[stack]

One of my personal favorite uses is creating surprised objects that you then animate with enhancement. That way you have a great deal of control over appropriate ways to spend construct points. I have a character that flies around in a colossal airship he built and animated. He has also built various temporary constructs to serve various purposes. He has also constructed cells for prisoners, made restraints for a huge elemental creature, and turned an ally into a metal statue to prevent her from exploding due to reasons.

More generally, creation is a toolbox sphere. At lower levels the cost hurts so specializing too much in it isn't advisable, having faculty in it can provide room for many creative solutions to problems in and out of combat.

[Hal0Badger]

I like the Golem Armor spell (created with spellcraft), and to create things and animate them. Creating a small army of medium sized golems is not that hard, especially when the Spellcraft is involved.

Another use is changing the material of the components, or creating mass production (like a very large amount of flour to semi-counter invisibility). It is not exactly ideal all the time, but creation sphere can cover areas as a "Jack of all trades, master of none" kinda approach.

[EisenKreutzer]

Creatig walls, shelters, weaponry and armor? Basically mimic spells that conjure items into existence.

[Mehangel]

Creatig walls, shelters, weaponry and armor? Basically mimic spells that conjure items into existence.

Yes, except that most games I have played in dont use core vancian spellcasting alongside Spheres of Power (except in the form of rituals).

[EisenKreutzer]

Yes, except that most games I have played in dont use core vancian spellcasting alongside Spheres of Power (except in the form of rituals).

I never said anything about using vancian casting and Spheres of Power in the same game.

[Arbane]

Consider the possibilities of creating things you know will be temporary. Put together a trap held back by a rope you conjured, put burning oil in a created brazier....