The God in the Mirror - Turning your Wizard into a Pseudo-Deity

[Renduaz]

Requirements

1.Mirror of Life Trapping
2.A lot of gold ( Also counting as material components )
3.Demiplane
4.Clone
5.Mordekainen's Private Sanctum
6.Magic Jar
7.Simulacrum
8.Sequester
9.A number of gems worth at least 500gp
10.A vessel worth 2,000gp
11. Sending
12. A Korred imprisoned in a Gem, Golden Shears, Regeneration and Planar Binding ( Optional )
13. Contingency and Dispel Magic
14. Drawmij's Instant Summons and a whole lot of Sapphires worth 1,000gp ( Contentious )
15. Mind Blank ( Optional )
16. Find Familiar ( Optional )
17. Contingency ( Optional )
18. Otiluke's Resilient Sphere ( Optional )
19. Wish ( Optional )



Results

1.Immortality
2.Invincibility
3.Undetected
4.Your own infinite plane, although it's a bit foggy
5.Your own Divine Avatar ( Kind of )

Instructions

Cast Demiplane, and fill it with your accumulated gold, components, rations ( If even required ) and other items you wish and create a Simulacrum, and order it to hang the Mirror of Life Trapping on the wall of your demiplane and activate it. Carry all the items into the spatially infinite extradimensional space, ordering your Simulacrum to free you after a certain amount of time in each incursion, until you add everything. In case "Your possessions" count as everything placed in the cell rather than just what you're wearing and carrying, then summon a familiar or other creature that you can kill ( with something like glyph of warding inside the cell ) once it transported along with the items, and summon a new creature to repeat the process. Or just pile up everything into some container and lift up with Telekinesis/Reverse Gravity and put it back down on you so it's carried, even though you could be extremely encumbered and take crushing damage depending on just what you put there, then look at the mirror one final time to get sucked inside. Once in, teleport underneath to somewhere else in the cell. Before looking for that final time though, order your Simulacrum to cast "Sequester" on the mirror after you have entered it with 5,000 remaining gold outside, just to be sure, and order it to begin casting Mordekainen's Private Sanctum for a year, informing you via "Sending" when it is done.

Once inside with enough of your gold and possessions ( There's no need for food or drink inside or much else really ), and after the Simulacrum has finished permanently warding the Demiplane, cast Simulacrum again, destroying the one outside, who is effectively the last being who could command the mirror or know of it's existence. Then Cast Clone on yourself and, waiting for it to mature 120 days in the vessel you brought. Finally, cast Magic Jar on your Simulacrum, as now both your inert living body, your Clone, and the Magic Jar with the Simulacrums "soul" ( ? ) in it remain inside the Mirror, while your soul inhabits the Simulacrum's body. Cast Banishment on yourself or any other Planar Travel spell to escape the extradimensional cell in the Mirror, and go to a location of your choosing. If your host Simulacrum dies while your soul inhabits it, both you and the creature ( Simulacrum ) dies, but your own soul returns to the Clone when you die. You can now start the process anew with the same Clone vessel, expending consumable gold only for a new Simulacrum and Clone, totalling 2,500 per casting, and 500gp for the new magic jar container.

On a final note, before venturing out, always cast contingency on yourself with Otiluke's Resilient Sphere and your given circumstance ( When my soul/mind wants it/thinks about something, after a period of time etc.. ) which would enable you to escape unwanted situations, or alternatively cast "Mind Blank" on yourself perpetually and place a familiar in your mirror's cell and the Magic Jar container on a high ledge, and order it to topple and destroy it if it does not receive a "Sending" spell from you with a specific message once in every 8 hours or so.

Optional: If you die a lot and want an indispensable supply of gold, you'd have to find a Korred ( Possibly through Conjure Fey at 7th level if you have access to a scroll and inverted magic circle ), cast Planar Binding on it, then Imprisonment into a gem, and carry the gem as you look the final time into the mirror, release the Korred once inside, and cut his hair with golden shears whenever you need gold. If his hair doesn't grow naturally ( Which it does, according to the MM and regains hit points ), just cast Regeneration. Renew Planar Binding every year or so.

Optional: Or you could just use Wish to create your Clone and Simulacrum every time you need to.

Contentious: These few methods relate to the spell "Drawmij's Instant Summons" and they are contentious because they introduce a mental cluster**** of just what it means to be "You" while your soul inhabits a Simulacrum vessel through the Magic Jar while you inert body is elsewhere and then you have a Clone and.. well, it's basically all up to interpretation in order to work, I am unable to justify it utterly with RAW as I can with other things.

Under the assumption that "you" in the spell would refer to your soul or the body controlled by it at a given time, you can collect gold from the outside back into your plane by first, prior to using Magic Jar, casting "Drawmij's Instant Summons" on a sapphire ( We'll call it Retrieval Sapphire ), obviously using another Sapphire ( Known as Component Sapphire ), while still in the plane. Give "Retrieval Sapphire" to your Simulacrum and go Magic Jar, while component sapphire is with you on the plane. Once Simulacrum is somewhere else outside with his own sapphire, obtain a 10 pounds weighing bar of gold ( Platinum or Diamond would be better for value if you can ), cast the same spell on it using "Retrieval Sapphire" as the component, and then wait until the Simulacrum dies or something I guess. Once you reform within the Clone back in your plane, crush "Component Sapphire" to summon "Retrieval Sapphire" from wherever the now dead Simulacrum has carried it with him, then crush "Retrieval Sapphire" to summon the 10 pounds of matter ( Gold, Platinum ). The whole ordeal has cost about 2,000gp for the Sapphires while a recasting of Clone+Simulacrum will bring it to a total of 5,000gp, so in order to actually replenish your "cash" supply for spells on the plane, the 10 pounds bar of gold or better yet platinum would have to be worth more, which I'm pretty sure it is. Regardless, you can always create multiple pair of Retrieval/Component sapphires to bring more bars, each pair is 2,000gp, so I'm pretty sure another 10 pounds platinum bar compensates for that. And when you run out of sapphires, use the same method to mark some kind of gigantic Jewel or necklace embedded with tons of sapphires that you found while strolling about with your Avatar.

Again, this relies on "you" being your soul/the body it resides in currently rather than physical body, which actually seems the more appropriate definition since otherwise it brings up a lot of stupid scenarios such as what happens to an object you marked with the spell if you died and came back as a Clone and still possess the Sapphire, or what happens if you True Polymorph, or if you die and someone casts "Reincarnate" on you and you're now a Dwarf or whatever, but it's not guaranteed RAW.

RAW that applies

And now for that, as I'm sure there are many posters who may get confused and perhaps believe that there has been confusion in this thread

1.That "Demiplane" counts as a method of planar travel ( Creating a doorway on another plane to enter it ) and cannot be used by another creature to enter a demiplane warded with Mordekainen's Private Sanctum ( Through creating the doorway on it's stone wall )

2.That the spatially infinite, "Extradimensional" cells inside the Mirror of Life Trapping are not affected by the feet range of Mordekainen's Private Sanctum ( Would be interesting since otherwise since it would enable you to trap creatures there permanently with no escape at all ), although they are merely both in the same plane of existence ( The Demiplane )

2.1.Addendum, just because I know it's going to come up - "Isn't the Mirror on the stone wall itself still within the reach of Mordekainen's Private Sanctum, therefore also including the spatially infinite cells?", the answer is, they aren't. First of all, the item description informs us that the mirror has those cells, but never that they are "inside" of it or something of that nature. The mirror acts as the entrance and a "window" to these cells, which are spatially infinite spaces, we don't really have an idea of their actual position in the multiverse. But not only that, we do know that the cells are "extradimensional", which is not a scientific term but what the jargon means according to wikitionary (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/extradimensional) is the following, as you can see. So they're not just spatially infinite and in another dimension, but also outside the known physicality of the multiverse or "Coming from a dimension outside Einsteinian space-time.", and therefore are not in any way, shape or form within the confines of the 120 feet ( 3-dimensional by the way ) range of Mordekainen's Private Sanctum, despite being linked with the Mirror. Only the tangible mirror itself hanging on the wall is. That also makes it even more mind-boggling to infiltrate somehow, and the Mirror artifact is the only known way in there.

3.That your Simulacrum would not be shunted to a different cell upon being cast, which is really not contentious, but just bears mentioning for those who can't already read - The answer is no since the Mirror did not trap it through the reflection itself, nor are the 12 cells occupied. The same would go for a Korred trapped in a gem and being carried inside your bag, never seeing it's reflection, into the same cell, basically functioning the same as a Sentient artifact for example, as your "possession".

4.How the reincarnation works, from Magic Jar - "If the host body dies while you're in it, the creature dies, and you must make a Charisma saving throw against your own spellcasting DC. On a success, you return to the container if it is within 100 feet of you. Otherwise, you die.", in our case it is otherwise, since our container is still in the mirror's space if our Simulacrum host dies, therefore we die, and from Clone - "At any time after the clone matures, if the original creature dies, its soul transfers to the clone, provided that the soul is free and willing to return.", so there is no problem here.

5.Drawmij's Instant Summons - "The item instantly appears in your hand regardless of physical or planar distances", wherein the "physical" part is what really matters to us, since it means the item can cross into the extradimensional, spatially infinite mirror cell directly, which is within the plane of the Demiplane, without passing through the 30 feet stone room which is protected by Mordekainen's Private Sanctum.

Conclusion

Time to design a nice little divine portfolio for yourself, maybe an eye peering from within a mirror and spread it throughout the Prime Material with your avatar, and every time it dies to scream at your enemies minds back in the cell as you emerge from the clone that "I am a deity, you fool! I have all of eternity to extract my vengeance!" as you deploy another Simulacrum. Maybe spruce up your foggy domain a little bit with various spells or just brood endlessly without eating, drinking, sleeping or eating like mystery deities are prone to do.

Why the Mirror though?

"Creatures trapped in the mirror’s cells don’t age, and they don’t need to eat, drink, or sleep.", which as far as I know is only otherwise possible in the unprotected Astral Sea, and sure, you can make your Clone a younger version too for immortality at least ( Although it would still need to eat, drink and sleep ), but those other attributes and the infinite plane are the closest thing to divinity. Also nifty way of getting out of a warded demiplane due to being in the same plane but not in the range of the Sanctum spell, yet in a sequestered extradimensional space that nothing knows about nor could theoretically be accessed from anywhere except by looking at the mirror.

Why Simulacrum if you're already safeguarded with Clone?

When you're a deity, you're dealing with a whole scale of different threats, and trust me, you don't want your enemies to have access to your true remains or moreso, your true form. Believe me, you don't want an enemy to trap you in some Silenced or Anti-Magic zone and also preventing you from killing yourself, such that you can never escape. Bad. Really bad. A Simulacrum on the other hand can't be put in any anti-magic zones without being dispelled itself ( A disadvantage as well to be sure, so bring a lot of counterspells ), you have stipulations for any other attempt to trap it while your soul is within, and no remains are left when it hits 0 hit points as it turns to snow and melts instantly.

So you basically have the same Discorporation trait as Tiamat except better since that dumb bitch can be trapped with Planar Binding and then can't escape, but you always can. If you're feeling confident though, want to save costs, and really don't like having Dispel Magic or Antimagic Field cast on you, you can always ditch the Simulacrum in favor of just banishing yourself from the cell, while the Clone awaits there.

Who has so much time?

Someone who's planning on being a deity for all eternity, apparently.

Are spellcasters really OP?

Nah, martials are just as powerful. I mean, it's just nigh deity-hood, nothing special.

[Jaxter Gronaldi]

You are genius. +1 internet

[Renduaz]

You are genius. +1 internet

Thank you very much, took me a lot of thinking.

[Vulsutyr]

Love it. Best deification method I have found for 5e yet.

[Seekergeek]

Aaaaaaaaaaaaand...my next warlock has a patron.

[TheUser]

If you don't age in the mirror how can your clone mature?

[ThePolarBear]

Point 2 is incorrect. An extradimensional space IS a different plane from the plane where you access the extradimensional space (http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/sage-advice/rules-answers-august-2015). Dimension and plane have the same meaning. You can't keep the "no planar travel" part of Mordy's Sanctum and travel through the mirror since that is a form of planar travel.

[Dalebert]

If you don't age in the mirror how can your clone mature?

It's not strictly aging. It's... developing? It's not a creature yet. It's just a spell effect that takes that long to become usable.

Mild technical point that is easily dealt with: You're mistaken that Dispel Magic is automatic on your own spells. That's probably something you're remembering from previous editions that no longer applies. You'll just need to cast it at a high enough level to ensure it works.

[Hypersmith]

Are spellcasters really OP?

Nah, martials are just as powerful. I mean, it's just nigh deity-hood, nothing special.

OH yeah well I can hit you some more than you can hit me if we're standing face to face and both wielding swords.
;_;

[Klorox]

Love it!!!

[Nifft]

Hmm, waking up as a Clone with a dead inert body next to you... wouldn't it be mildly more sanitary to use your real body, and just leave a Clone in the mirror?

[Lord Raziere]

*slow sarcastic clapping*

Congratulations. You figured out how to be invincible in A Childrens Pretend Game. :smalltongue:

Well move aside 3.5 Wizard, I have more modern fish to fry. At least I can now complain about current wizard brokenness now. You basically turned a mirror meant for imprisonment into a deification. Brilliant. You will now become the deity of Self Imprisonment, Isolation, Narcissism, Vanity and Having No Social Life. :smallamused:

Of course I am endlessly amused that you chose a method that is basically sealing yourself into a mirror meant for sealing ancient evils by the sound of it. Its almost as if your saving the real heroes the trouble of sealing you away themselves. Even better is if another ancient evil is already sealed within. That then tortures you for all eternity. That moment of a wizard thinking they are so smart then crashing head first into their hubris through an ancient godly demon they have trapped themselves in with, warms my heart. :smallbiggrin:

Of course like any old rich eccentric person you send someone else to do your work for you while still putting your face on it so that others know that you were the person that made them do it. Because why do anything yourself?

Of course the only flaw is that you forgot the one thing that the mirror doesn't provide: entertainment when your not working. Thankfully I am here to fix your method. Simply add a high powered PC, a method of electrical generation, Dark Souls games, a bunch of RTS's, pokemon games modified so that you can only catch shiny pokemon, and various long form RPGs like Dragon age Inquisition. That should keep you occupied for the rest of eternity, and while also giving you something better than to do than conquer the world and seek power like an mustache twirling villain while respecting your clear desire to have no friends.

Finally eternity passes. the universe ends and you are the last thing, still within your plane, your mirror. you see nothing outside. you are now forever alone. You had your chance and now it is gone. Sure you can make more simulacrums and clones, but like the mirror, you are only staring and talking to reflections, physical walking reflections of your own creation, how fitting that your immortality be nothing but yourself reflected back at you forever and forever within a mirror. Because clearly that is all you ever cared about: your own reflection. Go ahead. talk to yourself- until you go mad. :roach:

Thus you are an insane wizard at the end of time forever talking to their own clones and reflections after everyone else is dead. Enjoy all your flaws and shortcomings reflected back at you forever, seeing yourself from the outside and realizing that being you and interacting with you are two different things. And that you have only yourself to blame for not having anyone different to talk to.

Man, does ultimate power suck. :smallbiggrin:

[Finieous]

Are spellcasters really OP?

Nah, martials are just as powerful. I mean, it's just nigh deity-hood, nothing special.

You get to be a fake god in eternal confinement, solitary but for your freakish clones and simulacra, always in fear of a real god taking an interest in you and unmaking your great works. Your consciousness is still temporal and so you soon go mad.

Meanwhile, my 20th level fighter settles down with his great wealth, marries and has a family, commits himself to faith and good works, and is admired and respected throughout the land. He grows old and eventually dies, surrounded by those who love him, and a real god rewards his life well lived with an eternity in paradise.

tl;dr Would you rather be Aragorn or Arwen?

"Aragorn will come to death, an image of the splendor of the kings of men in glory, undimmed before the breaking of the world. But you, my daughter, you will linger on in darkness and in doubt. Here you will dwell, bound to you grief, under the fading trees, until all the world has changed and the long years of your life are utterly spent." - Elrond

[Dappershire]

*slow sarcastic clapping*

Congratulations. You figured out how to be invincible in A Childrens Pretend Game. :smalltongue:


Finally eternity passes. the universe ends and you are the last thing, still within your plane, your mirror. you see nothing outside. you are now forever alone. You had your chance and now it is gone. Sure you can make more simulacrums and clones, but like the mirror, you are only staring and talking to reflections, physical walking reflections of your own creation, how fitting that your immortality be nothing but yourself reflected back at you forever and forever within a mirror. Because clearly that is all you ever cared about: your own reflection. Go ahead. talk to yourself- until you go mad. :roach:

Thus you are an insane wizard at the end of time forever talking to their own clones and reflections after everyone else is dead. Enjoy all your flaws and shortcomings reflected back at you forever, seeing yourself from the outside and realizing that being you and interacting with you are two different things. And that you have only yourself to blame for not having anyone different to talk to.



Ouch. Better than being a complete scrub in a Children's Pretend Game. I figure one is less demeaning than another.

And I never really understood that trope. The 'growing bored with immortality.' Especially as a wizard, who's just turrably inta lernin'. If I was immortal, and at least powerful enough not to be a homeless tramp or scientific torture experiment, i'm pretty sure i'd find something to amuse myself.
And even if heat death did sink in, and that didn't suddenly grant me all the godlike power of those that had died, I could always skip ship. Hit a different material plane, or even non-material. Worst to worst, I doubt the Abyss will ever die out.

[Renduaz]

Point 2 is incorrect. An extradimensional space IS a different plane from the plane where you access the extradimensional space (http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/sage-advice/rules-answers-august-2015). Dimension and plane have the same meaning. You can't keep the "no planar travel" part of Mordy's Sanctum and travel through the mirror since that is a form of planar travel.

Very well, but as I've said in the RAW that applies, I can still benefit from the Sanctum by simply entering the Mirror prior to doing everything, and having my Simulacrum complete the Sanctum spell afterwards, so it is not an obstacle, really.


It's not strictly aging. It's... developing? It's not a creature yet. It's just a spell effect that takes that long to become usable.

Mild technical point that is easily dealt with: You're mistaken that Dispel Magic is automatic on your own spells. That's probably something you're remembering from previous editions that no longer applies. You'll just need to cast it at a high enough level to ensure it works.

Well, the metamagic behind it is that your Simulacrum would have to resist the attempt to dispel it, and if you don't resist, it might just happen, but you're correct, it cannot be justified RAW. Casting at the high level actually won't work since Contingency only works with spells of 5th level or lower, while both Magic Jar and Simulacrum are above that. I suppose then that the best option would be a contingency AOE spell of some kind to shatter the container of the magic jar next to your body back in the plane to destroy it and thus end the spell, or create a familiar like an hawk and place the magic jar on some elevated surface in your plane, and ( Your familiar can act independently of you ) even though you won't be able to communicate with it telepathically the ordinary way, tell it to knock over the jar and destroy it if it doesn't receive a "Sending" message from you after a certain time for instance.


Hmm, waking up as a Clone with a dead inert body next to you... wouldn't it be mildly more sanitary to use your real body, and just leave a Clone in the mirror?

You could, and then someone could also trap you somewhere while preventing you from killing yourself, effectively vanquishing you.

[Thisguy_]

Worst to worst, I doubt the Abyss will ever die out.

Jeez, commit yourself to an eternity in a cold hole of infinite depth and full of gibbering maggots why don't ya...

[JackPhoenix]

Jeez, commit yourself to an eternity in a cold hole of infinite depth and full of gibbering maggots why don't ya...

If you wait long enough for the next multiverse to show up, you may have the privilege to be the foundation of that multiverse's Far Realm.

[strangebloke]

Well done sir. I have a player who would be very interested in this.

[qube]

Firstly, RAW means "rules as written".

For instance


2.1.Addendum, just because I know it's going to come up - "Isn't the Mirror on the stone wall itself still within the reach of Mordekainen's Private Sanctum,
...
The mirror acts as the entrance and a "window" to these cells, which are spatially infinite spaces, we don't really have an idea of their actual position in the multiverse.

The absence of it being mentioned, does not automatically make the opposite Rules As Written. For very obvious reason.

------------------------------------

Secondly, there's a lot of irrelevant redundency. The same logic that gets you out ...


Cast Banishment on yourself or any other Planar Travel spell to escape the extradimensional cell in the Mirror, and go to a location of your choosing.

allows others to get in; so because your reasoning of


2.That the spatially infinite, "Extradimensional" cells inside the Mirror of Life Trapping are not affected by the feet range of Mordekainen's Private Sanctum

To protect your demiplane, when you're not planning to be in it, is silly.


------------------------------------

Thirdly ... more to the point ... what exactly is the point?

Agelessness is reached at level 9, with Reincarnate simply giving you a new adult body...

To call these shenanigans "Pseudo-Deity" is a serious discredit to the term.

[Aett_Thorn]

Give a Warlock a GOO patron that is actually a Wizard that has done this (but did it waaaayyy back in the day), and now their body has died so many times that they've lost track of reality. Now they believe that their own little sanctum is reality, and that the outside world is just a figment. The patron's desire is finding a way to expand "reality" to encompass the imaginary world.

[Renduaz]

Firstly, RAW means "rules as written".

For instance


2.1.Addendum, just because I know it's going to come up - "Isn't the Mirror on the stone wall itself still within the reach of Mordekainen's Private Sanctum,
...
The mirror acts as the entrance and a "window" to these cells, which are spatially infinite spaces, we don't really have an idea of their actual position in the multiverse.

The absence of it being mentioned, does not automatically make the opposite Rules As Written. For very obvious reason.

------------------------------------

Secondly, there's a lot of irrelevant redundency. The same logic that gets you out ...


Cast Banishment on yourself or any other Planar Travel spell to escape the extradimensional cell in the Mirror, and go to a location of your choosing.

allows others to get in; so because your reasoning of


2.That the spatially infinite, "Extradimensional" cells inside the Mirror of Life Trapping are not affected by the feet range of Mordekainen's Private Sanctum

To protect your demiplane, when you're not planning to be in it, is silly.


------------------------------------

Thirdly ... more to the point ... what exactly is the point?

Agelessness is reached at level 9, with Reincarnate simply giving you a new adult body...

To call these shenanigans "Pseudo-Deity" is a serious discredit to the term.

It is not an argument from absence, regardless of whatever the actual positioning of the cell spaces is, they are extradimensional, whether that means outside the known physicality or being in another plane, as another poster supported with Sage Advice and therefore I've made some adjustments to the process, by entering the mirror first.

I do not know whether or not it is possible to enter these cells through something which isn't the mirror, and after being Sequestered and tucked in the Demiplane, it is doubtful whether anyone would even know about them. but you mistake the intention. Mordekainen's Private Sanctum is there to defend the physical location of the mirror itself, which hangs on the stone wall of the Demiplane, from anyone potentially breaking it or activating it.

The point, as I added, if you had bothered to read, is that the mirror also removes the need to eat, drink and sleep, and provides a neat spatially infinite plane for a more "divine" feel.

[Unoriginal]

Oh boy, where to even start... wait, I know.


1. Soulless Simulacrum



You shape an illusory duplicate of one beast or humanoid ... The duplicate is a creature, partially real and formed from ice or snow

The Simulacrum is an illusion, and so has no soul, meaning you cannot use it with Magic Jar.


2. Being a Simulacrum Kinda Sucks.

Now, let's imagine that point 1. doesn't make it impossible. What would happen if you could possess a Simulacrum:


Your game statistics are replaced by the statistics of the creature


The simulacrum lacks the ability to learn

Congratulation, you just made it impossible for you to learn anything when you get out of your cell. You'd wander the world, then when the Simulacrum's body dies you'd find yourself unable to recall anything new you've encountered while you were possessing the Simulacrum because you didn't have the ability to learn at the time.

What else...?


nor can it regain expended spell slots.

Oh, right that little detail.

If you're possessing a Simulacrum, you can't regain your spell slots, leaving you effectively powerless, until the body dies.


It appears to be the same as the original, but it has half the creature’s hit point maximum


Another important fact: your Simulacrum body would be half the HPs of a lvl 20 Wizard, which means it would probably have around 71 HPs and with an absolute maximum of 110 HPs (if you have 20 in CON and rolled only 6s for your HD). And you can't heal.

And that's not even going into if you decide to equip your Simulacrum with magic items, in which case you would lose them each time the Simulacrum dies (as you lack the ability to learn in that state and the enemies of a lvl 20 Wizards are usually smart enough to handle the items he drops).


So, to recap, even if point 1 wasn't here, this method to supposedly become "god-like" would make you:

-Unable to learn.

-Unable to get your spell slots back unless you die.

-Have the HPs of a Wizard half your level.

-Unable to heal.

What a godhood, eh?

3. The Cost of Hubris (in Material Components)

Now, let's imagine that, still ignoring point 1., Mihr-Or the Mirror Wizard decides that he can lives with the problems highlighted in 2.

While the cost of material components is listed in gold pieces, you can't use the gold pieces themselves to cast your spell. You need the correct components. Meaning that the tons of gold and/or platinum bars you brought with you would be useless aside from taking space in you cell, and the same thing applies to the Korred.

You need rubies worth 1500 gp and one single diamond worth 1000 gp each time you attempt the Simulacrum + Clone combo. And even if you gather tons of them, you'd eventually run out (especially given the "has to die to regain your spell slots" issue). Which means that you'd have to get out of your cell to gather more, leaving yourself vulnerable.

But all this leads us to point 4.


4. The Nay is a Mirror to the Soul

I have to admit, you managed to find a way to make a caster go in a place where they're basically unreachable.

You just forgot one detail.

The Mirror of Life Trapping makes it quite clear that the *only* way for a trapped creature to get out of it by themselves is to use planar travel magic.

Which means that it is not possible for an imprisoned creature to do something like kill themselves and have an ally bring them back to life (with Reincarnation, for exemple), or for beings like Devils or Yugoloths to kill themselves and then reappear in their home plane, to say nothing of Liches. It'd be a pretty bad eternal prison if it did, after all.

Meaning that a soul cannot escape the Mirror on its own.

And both OP and the Mirror description have made clear that it is not possible to reach the inside of the cell unless if the creature inside it use planar travel magic. Which means that a soul couldn't cross this boundary to enter the cell either.


if the original creature dies, its soul transfers to the clone, provided that the soul is free and willing to return.


Ergo: the soul being blocked by the same conditions that block anything from reaching the Wizard in their safe cell, anyone dying while their Clone is inside the cell would just die, as the soul is not free to return.

This applies to any method relying on the Clone being inside the Mirror's cell, even if you manage to bypass 1. by not using a Simulacrum.


TL, DR:

1. This method doesn't work because illusions don't have souls.

2. Even if it did work, possessing a Simulacrum body is really, really bad.

3. Even if it did work and a Simulacrum body was worthwhile, you'd still have to get out of your safe space eventually.

4. Even if you bypass 1., using Clone from inside a Mirror in Life Trapping results in death.



5. Using this method would leave you unable to learn anything anymore, trapped in a cold body that you can't heal, with half your HPs lost and without the capacity to regain your spells once you've cast them.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7WRrmTcUGg

[qube]

I do not know whether or not it is possible to enter these cells through something which isn't the mirror, and after being Sequestered and tucked in the Demiplane,Planar travel is planar travel. Unless there's something preventing you to enter, I wouldn't see why you'd be prevented to enter.


The point, as I added, if you had bothered to read, is that the mirror also removes the need to eat, drink and sleep, and provides a neat spatially infinite plane for a more "divine" feel.The point, if you had bothered to read is, that a single level 5 spell also grants you agelessness.

To do it using two 8th level spells (demiplane & clone) & two 7th level spells (simularicum, sequester) and a very rare item the mirror (a very rare item - a.k.a. not even part of the starting equipment of a lvl 17-20 character in a normal game) ... Because it give "a more "divine" feel"...

And then turn around and say Nah, martials are just as powerful. I mean, it's just nigh deity-hood, nothing special. ? That's delusions of grandure.

[Unoriginal]

Well done sir. I have a player who would be very interested in this.

It doesn't work, spare them that.


.

And then turn around and say Nah, martials are just as powerful. I mean, it's just nigh deity-hood, nothing special. ? That's delusions of grandure.

Don't forget calling Tiamat a "dumb bitch". Though the term is "delusion of grandeur".

[Renduaz]

Oh boy, where to even start... wait, I know.


1. Soulless Simulacrum




The Simulacrum is an illusion, and so has no soul, meaning you cannot use it with Magic Jar.


2. Being a Simulacrum Kinda Sucks.

Now, let's imagine that point 1. doesn't make it impossible. What would happen if you could possess a Simulacrum:





Congratulation, you just made it impossible for you to learn anything when you get out of your cell. You'd wander the world, then when the Simulacrum's body dies you'd find yourself unable to recall anything new you've encountered while you were possessing the Simulacrum because you didn't have the ability to learn at the time.

What else...?



Oh, right that little detail.

If you're possessing a Simulacrum, you can't regain your spell slots, leaving you effectively powerless, until the body dies.



Another important fact: your Simulacrum body would be half the HPs of a lvl 20 Wizard, which means it would probably have around 71 HPs and with an absolute maximum of 110 HPs (if you have 20 in CON and rolled only 6s for your HD). And you can't heal.

And that's not even going into if you decide to equip your Simulacrum with magic items, in which case you would lose them each time the Simulacrum dies (as you lack the ability to learn in that state and the enemies of a lvl 20 Wizards are usually smart enough to handle the items he drops).


So, to recap, even if point 1 wasn't here, this method to supposedly become "god-like" would make you:

-Unable to learn.

-Unable to get your spell slots back unless you die.

-Have the HPs of a Wizard half your level.

-Unable to heal.

What a godhood, eh?

3. The Cost of Hubris (in Material Components)

Now, let's imagine that, still ignoring point 1., Mihr-Or the Mirror Wizard decides that he can lives with the problems highlighted in 2.

While the cost of material components is listed in gold pieces, you can't use the gold pieces themselves to cast your spell. You need the correct components. Meaning that the tons of gold and/or platinum bars you brought with you would be useless aside from taking space in you cell, and the same thing applies to the Korred.

You need rubies worth 1500 gp and one single diamond worth 1000 gp each time you attempt the Simulacrum + Clone combo. And even if you gather tons of them, you'd eventually run out (especially given the "has to die to regain your spell slots" issue). Which means that you'd have to get out of your cell to gather more, leaving yourself vulnerable.

But all this leads us to point 4.


4. The Nay is a Mirror to the Soul

I have to admit, you managed to find a way to make a caster go in a place where they're basically unreachable.

You just forgot one detail.

The Mirror of Life Trapping makes it quite clear that the *only* way for a trapped creature to get out of it by themselves is to use planar travel magic.

Which means that it is not possible for an imprisoned creature to do something like kill themselves and have an ally bring them back to life (with Reincarnation, for exemple), or for beings like Devils or Yugoloths to kill themselves and then reappear in their home plane, to say nothing of Liches. It'd be a pretty bad eternal prison if it did, after all.

Meaning that a soul cannot escape the Mirror on its own.

And both OP and the Mirror description have made clear that it is not possible to reach the inside of the cell unless if the creature inside it use planar travel magic. Which means that a soul couldn't cross this boundary to enter the cell either.



Ergo: the soul being blocked by the same conditions that block anything from reaching the Wizard in their safe cell, anyone dying while their Clone is inside the cell would just die, as the soul is not free to return.

This applies to any method relying on the Clone being inside the Mirror's cell, even if you manage to bypass 1. by not using a Simulacrum.


TL, DR:

1. This method doesn't work because illusions don't have souls.

2. Even if it did work, possessing a Simulacrum body is really, really bad.

3. Even if it did work and a Simulacrum body was worthwhile, you'd still have to get out of your safe space eventually.

4. Even if you bypass 1., using Clone from inside a Mirror in Life Trapping results in death.



5. Using this method would leave you unable to learn anything anymore, trapped in a cold body that you can't heal, with half your HPs lost and without the capacity to regain your spells once you've cast them.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7WRrmTcUGg

Unoriginal, again. Where do we start? If you google "simulacrum magic jar", most people agree there is nothing preventing the usage. There is nothing in Magic Jar stipulating that a target "must have a soul" or something of the sort in order to work, and there is nothing in "Simulacrum" which gives any kind of status about what "soul" or not it may or may not have. All we need in RAW for magic jar to work is for the target to be a humanoid, end of story. What kind of "soul" or not gets trapped in the jar is a different story, it may as well be none. Don't make **** up.

>because you didn't have the ability to learn at the time.

Wrong. Magic Jar - "you retain your alignment and your Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores. You retain the benefit of your own class feature.", pretty sure that includes learning ability, not to mention my very soul is in it. The Simulacrum is nothing more than a body, it's behavior as an independent unit does not matter.

>If you're possessing a Simulacrum, you can't regain your spell slots, leaving you effectively powerless, until the body dies.

That much is true, I suppose it would either be a quite costly endeavor or you'd have to venture out without the Simulacrum.

>You need the correct components.

Since when? As long as you have an Arcane Focus, you just need to substitute the cost in gold for consumption. I've never seen anybody in any session requesting the exact specific carved statue or gem from someone in order to cast a spell, they ask for the cost in gold. Same goes for official WOTC sessions. And yes, it costs a lot, but methods have been pointed out to replenish your supply. Regardless, it is irrelevant. Even if you needed the actual components, just use the gold you earn or what you can obtain on the Prime Material to create a string with all the carved figurines or gems you need for those particular spell, and then summon that item into the mirror cell.

>Which means that it is not possible for an imprisoned creature to do something like kill themselves and have an ally bring them back to life

Stop making things up. The fact that a creature is confined to the cell until freed has no bearing on the creature's ability to kill itself. The creature will be dead, it will still be confined to the cell as will it's remains, only it's soul won't be. This is a mirror of life trapping, not death and soul trapping. And I have no idea which point you're attempting to make either. There is absolutely no RAW concerning the return of souls somewhere, only that your soul WILL return to the Clone, without any stipulations on where the Clone is. It's like claiming if you somehow managed to make a Clone in the Far Realm, your soul won't be able to enter it, since no known method of planar travel can reach the Far Realm. It's irrelevant since souls and their function in Clone do not work that way, nor does the Mirror state that souls can't enter it.

The only actual drawback I can see here is indeed the Simulacrum's inability to regain it's spell slots. I suppose it would be more efficient to banish yourself then, and less costly too, I'll try to devise another method on protection from capture.

[Renduaz]

Planar travel is planar travel. Unless there's something preventing you to enter, I wouldn't see why you'd be prevented to enter.

The point, if you had bothered to read is, that a single level 5 spell also grants you agelessness.

To do it using two 8th level spells (demiplane & clone) & two 7th level spells (simularicum, sequester) and a very rare item the mirror (a very rare item - a.k.a. not even part of the starting equipment of a lvl 17-20 character in a normal game) ... Because it give "a more "divine" feel"...

And then turn around and say Nah, martials are just as powerful. I mean, it's just nigh deity-hood, nothing special. ? That's delusions of grandure.

As I've said, I don't see how anyone would be able to designate that destiny in the first place when it's pretty much unknown and the Mirror itself is Sequestered on a demiplane. Secondly, would you say someone can use planar travel to enter the extradimensional space of a Rope Trick? But don't worry, I actually have a solution even to that, and a serious improvement.


It doesn't work, spare them that.



Don't forget calling Tiamat a "dumb bitch". Though the term is "delusion of grandeur".

Your reading comprehension rarely works, Unoriginal.

[Puh Laden]

Wrong. As long as you have an Arcane Focus, you just need the price in gold. I've never seen anybody in any session requesting the exact specific carved statue or gem from someone in order to cast a spell, they ask for the cost in gold. Same goes for official WOTC sessions. And yes, it costs a lot, but methods have been pointed out to replenish your supply.


By RAW this is not correct. However for convenience, it's often side-stepped, to varying degrees based on campaign and DM. For example, some DMs will only require the gold and say "you had this specific gem or statue all along" and some will require that you specifically purchase the components when you're in civilization, still others will make a quest out of gaining these pricey components. Whether or not you have an arcane focus makes no difference, however.

On the other hand, it doesn't really matter. If you can wish up gold, you can wish up material components (or have a simulacrum wish them up).

[sir_argo]

While the cost of material components is listed in gold pieces, you can't use the gold pieces themselves to cast your spell. You need the correct components. Meaning that the tons of gold and/or platinum bars you brought with you would be useless aside from taking space in you cell, and the same thing applies to the Korred.

You need rubies worth 1500 gp and one single diamond worth 1000 gp each time you attempt the Simulacrum + Clone combo. And even if you gather tons of them, you'd eventually run out (especially given the "has to die to regain your spell slots" issue). Which means that you'd have to get out of your cell to gather more, leaving yourself vulnerable.

The majority of your points are reasonable... I'm only going to refute this one. A mage of sufficient level would just use the Wish spell to create the Simulacrum & Clone, thus negating the material component requirement.

[Renduaz]

By RAW this is not correct. However for convenience, it's often side-stepped, to varying degrees based on campaign and DM. For example, some DMs will only require the gold and say "you had this specific gem or statue all along" and some will require that you specifically purchase the components when you're in civilization, still others will make a quest out of gaining these pricey components. Whether or not you have an arcane focus makes no difference, however.

On the other hand, it doesn't really matter. If you can wish up gold, you can wish up material components (or have a simulacrum wish them up).

That's also true. If you make your Simulacrum wish for the 25,000gp worth, the 33 percent chance of never casting Wish again only applies to it, but you already got enough gold to destroy it and create additional Simulacrum, which effectively grants you as much gold as you want. At any rate, Drawmij's Instant Summons could simply be used to get the components instead of the gold for instance.

[qube]

All we need in RAW for magic jar to work is for the target to be a humanoid, end of story. What kind of "soul" or not gets trapped in the jar is a different story, it may as well be none. Don't make **** up.err ... dude?


Wrong. Magic Jar - "you retain your alignment and your Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores. You retain the benefit of your own class feature.", pretty sure that includes learning ability, not to mention my very soul is in it. The Simulacrum is nothing more than a body, it's behavior as an independent unit does not matter.
Learning is not a class feature - but a racial one. (a human fighter will be able to learn just as good as a human wizard with symelar stats, yet a golem fighter will not be able to learn anything).

So, sorry, mate, but the ablity to learn, being a class feature - is you making **** up.


Stop making things up. The fact that a creature is confined to the cell until freed has no bearing on the creature's ability to kill itself. The creature will be dead, it will still be confined to the cell as will it's remains, only it's soul won't be. got any RAW to back that up, or are you making that up?


An extradimensional cell is an infinite expanse filled with thick fog that reduces visibility to 10 feet. Creatures trapped in the mirror’s cells don’t age, and they don’t need to eat, drink, or sleep. A creature trapped within a cell can escape using magic that permits planar travel. Otherwise, the creature is confined to the cell until freed.
-- RAW
Yet, if what you say is true suicide + true ressurection would work.
And that would specifically contradict RAW.

[Renduaz]

Actually hold on, at any rate (http://www.sageadvice.eu/2014/09/25/extraplanar-space/), Crawford's answer on "extraplanar"/"extradimensional" spaces isn't really clear, but he says they are "outside other planes" when asked if it is considered to be on a different plane, which suggests it is not present on any other plane of it's own, which means planar travel couldn't be used to breach an extradimensional cell in the Mirror of Life Trapping. So that's covered too.

[qube]

As I've said, I don't see how anyone would be able to designate that destiny in the first place when it's pretty much unknown and the Mirror itself is Sequestered on a demiplane.err ... divination on anything but the mirror? since I wouldn't even know of the mirror, why would ask anything about it?


Secondly, would you say someone can use planar travel to enter the extradimensional space of a Rope Trick?Yup. Seeing as planar travel works on other extradimensional spaces. I see no reason why Rope trick would be excluded.

[Luppers]

>because you didn't have the ability to learn at the time.

Wrong. Magic Jar - "you retain your alignment and your Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores. You retain the benefit of your own class feature.", pretty sure that includes learning ability, not to mention my very soul is in it. The Simulacrum is nothing more than a body, it's behavior as an independent unit does not matter.


This is somewhat debatable as it could be argued that the simulacrum is physically unable to learn (RAW the simulacrum "lacks the ability" to learn, this could be physical or mental) and therefore retaining mental abilities could be irrelevant.

Plus this whole method could be countered with a gate spell:
Be on same plane as simulacrum, target Mihr-Or(the "god"), the gate opens to the extra-planar space either to the clone or original(since they are all essentially the same creature), go in, destroy all clones and original, leave. Next time the simulacrum dies, there's no clone to return to.

Or just use the Imprisonment spell.

The simulacrum is also vulnerable to a 3rd level spell, dispel magic. A 5th level caster can "kill" you, even if only temporarily. As a great man once said "Puny god". :smallbiggrin:.

[Easy_Lee]

A lot of people arguing with the OP are missing the point. The trick is viable by certain interpretations of the RAW, as shown in the post. And it's well-researched. It's also something few DMs or players would ever think to allow or try.

This is like locate city bomb from 3.5e. It's questionable rules interactions that lead to an arguably RAW but definitely not RAI trick that goes against the spirit of the game. This is fun theory-crafting. That's all.

Don't argue it like you're sitting at the table with your hated enemy who wants to do this.

[Unoriginal]

If you google "simulacrum magic jar", most people agree there is nothing preventing the usage. There is nothing in Magic Jar stipulating that a target "must have a soul" or something of the sort in order to work

"On a failure, your soul moves into the target’s body, and the target’s soul becomes trapped in the container."


there is nothing in "Simulacrum" which gives any kind of status about what "soul" or not it may or may not have.

Illusions don't have souls, dude. Claiming otherwise is absurdity.


All we need in RAW for magic jar to work is for the target to be a humanoid, end of story. What kind of "soul" or not gets trapped in the jar is a different story, it may as well be none. Don't make **** up.

So you're claiming that a spell to trap a soul into a container doesn't require the target to have a soul. Seems legit.



Wrong. Magic Jar - "you retain your alignment and your Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores. You retain the benefit of your own class feature.", pretty sure that includes learning ability, not to mention my very soul is in it. The Simulacrum is nothing more than a body, it's behavior as an independent unit does not matter.

It's not a behavior, it's a characteristic of the body you're inhabiting, and you absolutely have to follow the characteristics of the body you're possessing: "Your game statistics are replaced by the statistics of the creature"




>If you're possessing a Simulacrum, you can't regain your spell slots, leaving you effectively powerless, until the body dies.

That much is true, I suppose it would either be a quite costly endeavor or you'd have to venture out without the Simulacrum.

Is that is true, when why would you say that the "you lacks the ability to learn" should not be taken into account? It's literally in the same sentence and concern the same issue.



>You need the correct components.

Wrong. As long as you have an Arcane Focus, you just need the price in gold. I've never seen anybody in any session requesting the exact specific carved statue or gem from someone in order to cast a spell, they ask for the cost in gold.

You'r the one who's wrong (PHB p. 203):


Casting some spells requires particular objects, specified in parentheses in the component entry. A character can use a component pouch or a spellcasting focus (found in chapter 5) in place of the components specified for a spell. But if a cost is indicated for a component, a character must have that specific component before he or she can cast the spell.



Stop making things up. The fact that a creature is confined to the cell until freed has no bearing on the creature's ability to kill itself. The creature will be dead, it will still be confined to the cell as will it's remains, only it's soul won't be. This is a mirror of life trapping, not death and soul trapping.

So you're saying that a Demon can escape the Mirror by killing himself and then reappearing in the Abyss?



There is absolutely no RAW concerning the return of souls somewhere, only that your soul WILL return to the Clone, without any stipulations on where the Clone is.

Clone says that the soul will return if free to do so, that it will return no matter what, meaning they can be prevented from doing so.



It's irrelevant since souls and their function in Clone do not work that way, nor does the Mirror state that souls can't enter it.

Does it means that things can actually enter the cell from the outside?

[Renduaz]

err ... dude?


Wrong. Magic Jar - "you retain your alignment and your Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores. You retain the benefit of your own class feature.", pretty sure that includes learning ability, not to mention my very soul is in it. The Simulacrum is nothing more than a body, it's behavior as an independent unit does not matter.
Learning is not a class feature - but a racial one. (a human fighter will be able to learn just as good as a human wizard with symelar stats, yet a golem fighter will not be able to learn anything).

So, sorry, mate, but the ablity to learn, being a class feature - is you making **** up.

got any RAW to back that up, or are you making that up?

I was not referring to the class abilities for ****'s sake, I was referring to your intelligence, wisdom and charisma and the fact that the Simulacrum is nothing more than a host for your soul just like any other humanoid, it's own mind or behavior nullified, when it comes to Unoriginal's claim that I wouldn't remember anything from what I saw. But now that you mention it, it might actually also be true that you can still regain spell slots by using Magic Jar.

Your ability to regain spell slots after a short or long rest is absolutely listed under your Class Abilities in the PHB. Regaining spell slots after a long rest for most spellcasters, and short rest for a warlock, is 100% a class feature.

The RAW to back both of that up is the PHB, genius.



An extradimensional cell is an infinite expanse filled with thick fog that reduces visibility to 10 feet. Creatures trapped in the mirror’s cells don’t age, and they don’t need to eat, drink, or sleep. A creature trapped within a cell can escape using magic that permits planar travel. Otherwise, the creature is confined to the cell until freed.
-- RAW
Yet, if what you say is true suicide + true ressurection would work.
And that would specifically contradict RAW.

It definitely does, if the creature had someone to resurrect him. If you can escape the cell via planar travel, and souls can easily cross planes to enter a Clone or to arrive at their "afterlife plane" in addition to any physical distance, what the **** makes you think it wouldn't work?

It does not contradict to RAW, it only contradicts your incomprehension of what's written. "The creature is confined to the cell until freed", the creature, not it's soul. There's a marked difference between those in D&D, otherwise resurrection spells would never work, because when something says "The creature dies", according to your understanding, it would mean both it's body and soul die, and it has no willing or free soul left to resurrect.

Creature =/= soul. Think about what you're writing next time.

[Unoriginal]

A lot of people arguing with the OP are missing the point. The trick is viable by certain interpretations of the RAW, as shown in the post. And it's well-researched. It's also something few DMs or players would ever think to allow or try.

This is like locate city bomb from 3.5e. It's questionable rules interactions that lead to an arguably RAW but definitely not RAI trick that goes against the spirit of the game. This is fun theory-crafting. That's all.

Don't argue it like you're sitting at the table with your hated enemy who wants to do this.

That would imply Renduaz is not serious when he says he thinks that this give a caster divine-like powers and that it proves caster supremacy.

I have seen nothing indicating he doesn't genuinely believe those two things, but if I missed the joke then I apologize.

[Renduaz]

This is somewhat debatable as it could be argued that the simulacrum is physically unable to learn (RAW the simulacrum "lacks the ability" to learn, this could be physical or mental) and therefore retaining mental abilities could be irrelevant.

Plus this whole method could be countered with a gate spell:
Be on same plane as simulacrum, target Mihr-Or(the "god"), the gate opens to the extra-planar space either to the clone or original(since they are all essentially the same creature), go in, destroy all clones and original, leave. Next time the simulacrum dies, there's no clone to return to.

Or just use the Imprisonment spell.

The simulacrum is also vulnerable to a 3rd level spell, dispel magic. A 5th level caster can "kill" you, even if only temporarily. As a great man once said "Puny god". :smallbiggrin:.

"You conjure a portal linking an unoccupied space you can see within range to a precise location on a different plane of existence." - They don't know any precise locations in the cell. Furthermore as quoted from Sage Advice, Crawford actually suggests the extradimensional space does not constitute a "plane" apparently.


"On a failure, your soul moves into the target’s body, and the target’s soul becomes trapped in the container."



Illusions don't have souls, dude. Claiming otherwise is absurdity.



So you're claiming that a spell to trap a soul into a container doesn't require the target to have a soul. Seems legit.




It's not a behavior, it's a characteristic of the body you're inhabiting, and you absolutely have to follow the characteristics of the body you're possessing: "Your game statistics are replaced by the statistics of the creature"





Is that is true, when why would you say that the "you lacks the ability to learn" should not be taken into account? It's literally in the same sentence and concern the same issue.




You'r the one who's wrong (PHB p. 203):





So you're saying that a Demon can escape the Mirror by killing himself and then reappearing in the Abyss?




Clone says that the soul will return if free to do so, that it will return no matter what, meaning they can be prevented from doing so.




Does it means that things can actually enter the cell from the outside?

That segment describes what happens once the spell has already been initiated on a humanoid target. You could just as well claim that the magic jar will simply be left empty rather that the spell "won't work" if there is no soul. Since the spell does not require the target to have a soul in order to work, only stating that a target's soul enters the magic jar upon casting, there's absolutely nothing in RAW about the spell failing to work on a target without a soul.

And appeals to incredulity about a Simulacrum's 'soul' aren't going to help you. I don't know and don't care whether some humanoid's soul may be in a Night Hag's Soul Bag either if I cast Magic Jar on him, it's going to work either way. My soul will enter his body since he's a humanoid, and if he doesn't have a soul, then simply nothing will go into the magic jar.

You clearly have no idea what "game statistics" designate. Spell slot refreshment is within class features, not game statistics. Now you're about to get absolutely destroyed - "It appears to be the same as the original, but it has half the creature's hit point maximum and is formed without any equipment. Otherwise, the illusion uses all the statistics of the creature it duplicates." ( Simulacrum ). Guess what sunshine? if other than half the HP and equipment, the illusion uses ALL THE STATISTICS of the creature it duplicates, and if spell slot regaining was counted as a creature statistics rather than class feature, you'd have spell slots regaining as a simulacrum, and the next sentence would be contradictory. Evidently, that is not the case.

And when I answered you I was speaking about your claim that I won't remember anything from my forays which is bull****. When you Magic Jar any humanoid, you're just using it's body. You retain your intelligence and wisdom and charisma and your soul inhabits it, anything else about it, such as stupidity or being braindead or being "unable to learn" in the classic sense ( memory, etc.. ) is irrelevant, that's how Magic Jar works. You retain your intelligence, wisdom and cha and your soul merely inhabits it's body.

Yes, the demon can escape by killing itself. Once again, it's a mirror of life trapping, not death and soul trapping. And if "creature" meant the same thing as "soul", resurrection spells would never work. In fact, not only that, but you might as well count a Devil's or Elemental's Discorporation ability as "using magical planar travel to escape", which is actually precisely what happens when a Devil dies and it's soul travels back to the Nine Hells from wherever it was.


err ... divination on anything but the mirror? since I wouldn't even know of the mirror, why would ask anything about it?

Yup. Seeing as planar travel works on other extradimensional spaces. I see no reason why Rope trick would be excluded.

Divination on anything but the mirror is exactly what we have Mordekainen's Private Sanctum for. I suppose they could try to divine you, in which case it may be solved with a daily recasting of non-detection.

Source on planar travel working on other extradimensional spaces?


That would imply Renduaz is not serious when he says he thinks that this give a caster divine-like powers and that it proves caster supremacy.

I have seen nothing indicating he doesn't genuinely believe those two things, but if I missed the joke then I apologize.

You really ought to tone down the smugness. Your criticisms are of little merit, your reading comprehension is lacking, and I rarely see you contributing much yourself other than cynicism. Cynicism which only stems from your mistaken arrogance.

[qube]

I was not referring to the class abilities for ****'s sake, I was referring to your intelligence, wisdom and charisma...

The RAW to back both of that up is the PHB, genius.
The ability scores? Then you are wrong, plain and simple. A Simulacrum has int, wis and cha of it's own


it appears to be the same as the original, but it has half the creature's hit point maximum and is formed without any Equipment. Otherwise, the Illusion uses all the Statistics of the creature it duplicates.

int 1 or int 20 Simulacrum? No problem. However, all 8000 combinations of int/wis and charisma, all these simulacrum have


The simulacrum lacks the ability to learn

That's RAW.

[JackPhoenix]

Oh, look, it's another "Renduaz has a fit when people oppose his ill-thought ideas" thread...

[qube]

Divination on anything but the mirror is exactly what we have Mordekainen's Private Sanctum for.nope. those are all things inside the cell - a.k.a. the area you specifically argued NOT to be affected by Private Sanctum


Source on planar travel working on other extradimensional spaces?demiplanes are extradimensional spaces, and you can planeshift or gate to those.

[Renduaz]

The ability scores? Then you are wrong, plain and simple. A Simulacrum has int, wis and cha of it's own


it appears to be the same as the original, but it has half the creature's hit point maximum and is formed without any Equipment. Otherwise, the Illusion uses all the Statistics of the creature it duplicates.

int 1 or int 20 Simulacrum? No problem. However, all 8000 combinations of int/wis and charisma, all these simulacrum have


The simulacrum lacks the ability to learn

That's RAW.

Are you high? Magic Jar makes you retain your own ( your soul's, which is what transfers to the body ) int, wis and cha. The target's ability scores are irrelevant. What the hell are you on about?

>all these simulacrum have

>That's RAW

Nope. You might as well say that if I possess a Gnoll with Magic Jar, I need to obey the whims of Yeengohu and rampage around hungrily because that's RAW, and na-na-na-na nothing says that the Gnoll's behavior is a result of it's soul or mental abilities! Maybe it's a result of it's liver, maybe it just is like that! HOLY **** buddy-o, you broke Magic Jar? Guess what, now I can't possess any humanoid with Magic Jar without taking on their Monster Manual behavior description, because it's RAW!

Herp, you broke Magic Jar with lack of reading comprehension, congratulations!

Back in reality: Magic Jar lets your soul enter a humanoid's body. Nothing else about the humanoid, except it's bodily statistics ( Which is why INT, WIS AND CHA are retained while you STR, DEX and CON aren't ), have no impact while your soul inhabits the body.

[Luppers]

"You conjure a portal linking an unoccupied space you can see within range to a precise location on a different plane of existence." - They don't know any precise locations in the cell. Furthermore as quoted from Sage Advice, Crawford actually suggests the extradimensional space does not constitute a "plane" apparently.


But you don't need to know a precise location, the last part of the spell states:

When you cast this spell, you can speak the name of a specific creature (a pseudonym, title, or nickname doesn't work). If that creature is on a plane other than the one you are on, the portal opens in the named creature's immediate vicinity and draws the creature through it to the nearest unoccupied space on your side of the portal. You gain no special power over the creature, and it is free to act as the GM deems appropriate. It might leave, attack you, or help you.

Note is specifies plane not "plane of existence" for this part. Demiplanes are described as extradimensional spaces in the PHB, and it specifies that gate would work for traveling to them. So RAW i see no reason why Gate wouldn't work as long as you knew the name of the caster. One target would be brought through and the gate itself would allow the attacking wizard, and whoever else is with him, to pass through.

[Renduaz]

nope. those are all things inside the cell - a.k.a. the area you specifically argued NOT to be affected by Private Sanctum

demiplanes are extradimensional spaces, and you can planeshift or gate to those.

What "things inside the cell"? What exactly do you think they're going to divine and with which spells? What the **** are you talking about? Clairvoyance with the 1 mile range? Locate Object with the 1,000 feet range? What? What are they going to divine within the mirror's cell? Scrying which requires them to be on the same plane of existence as me?

Well, which one of those is it going to be, qube?

[Unoriginal]

That segment describes what happens once the spell has already been initiated on a humanoid target. You could just as well claim that the magic jar will simply be left empty rather that the spell "won't work" if there is no soul. Since the spell does not require the target to have a soul in order to work, only stating that a target's soul enters the magic jar upon casting, there's absolutely nothing in RAW about the spell failing to work on a target without a soul.

And appeals to incredulity about a Simulacrum's 'soul' aren't going to help you. I don't know and don't care whether some humanoid's soul may be in a Night Hag's Soul Bag either if I cast Magic Jar on him, it's going to work either way. My soul will enter his body since he's a humanoid, and if he doesn't have a soul, then simply nothing will go into the magic jar.

Let's agree to disagree on that point, then.




You clearly have no idea what "game statistics" designate. Spell slot refreshment is within class features, not game statistics. Now you're about to get absolutely destroyed - "It appears to be the same as the original, but it has half the creature's hit point maximum and is formed without any equipment. Otherwise, the illusion uses all the statistics of the creature it duplicates." ( Simulacrum ). Guess what sunshine? if other than half the HP and equipment, the illusion uses ALL THE STATISTICS of the creature it duplicates, and if spell slot regaining was counted as a creature statistics rather than class feature, you'd have spell slots regaining as a simulacrum, and the next sentence would be contradictory. Evidently, that is not the case.

So you consider that the Simulacrum "can't regain its spell slot" trumps the class features that should allow it to regain it? Seems like the "lack the ability to learn" should trumps that as well, then.




And when I answered you I was speaking about your claim that I won't remember anything from my forays which is bull****. When you Magic Jar any humanoid, you're just using it's body. You retain your intelligence and wisdom and charisma and your soul inhabits it, anything else about it, such as stupidity or being braindead or being "unable to learn" in the classic sense ( memory, etc.. ) is irrelevant, that's how Magic Jar works. You retain your intelligence, wisdom and cha and your soul merely inhabits it's body.

And yet if the body has a trait, you are subjected to said trait. A Simulacrum's mental scores have nothing to do with its capacity to learn, as qube pointed out.




Yes, the demon can escape by killing itself. Once again, it's a mirror of life trapping, not death and soul trapping. And if "creature" meant the same thing as "soul", resurrection spells would never work. In fact, not only that, but you might as well count a Devil's or Elemental's Discorporation ability as "using magical planar travel to escape", which is actually precisely what happens when a Devil dies and it's soul travels back to the Nine Hells from wherever it was.

You have to admit that it makes it a pretty terrible prison, then.

I note that you have not commented on the rules of the PHB p. 203. Do you agree that you need the rubies and the diamond for those spells, now?



You really ought to tone down the smugness.

I'm actually 100% sincere. If you are just doing this like that without believing that your exploits and other methods are usable/should be used in-game and that caster supremacy is true, then I will apologize.

[Renduaz]

But you don't need to know a precise location, the last part of the spell states:

When you cast this spell, you can speak the name of a specific creature (a pseudonym, title, or nickname doesn't work). If that creature is on a plane other than the one you are on, the portal opens in the named creature's immediate vicinity and draws the creature through it to the nearest unoccupied space on your side of the portal. You gain no special power over the creature, and it is free to act as the GM deems appropriate. It might leave, attack you, or help you.

Note is specifies plane not "plane of existence" for this part. Demiplanes are described as extradimensional spaces in the PHB, and it specifies that gate would work for traveling to them. So RAW i see no reason why Gate wouldn't work as long as you knew the name of the caster. One target would be brought through and the gate itself would allow the attacking wizard, and whoever else is with him, to pass through.

Hmph, it appears the PHB does describe it as such, which is pretty weird. In that case... interesting, Gate spell might represent a potential breach. I suppose, if someone did know your name, you might have to ward an area within the mirror's cell with private sanctum as well, where you will be present, and when you need to venture out, create the Simulacrum, Magic Jar into it, cast "Contingency" with "Banishment" for the circumstance of "When I step outside the warded area", which will take effect immediately, therefore before anyone could ever cast Gate on the Simulacrum, before it has already vanished from the mirror's cell.

[Renduaz]

Let's agree to disagree on that point, then.




So you consider that the Simulacrum "can't regain its spell slot" trumps the class features that should allow it to regain it? Seems like the "lack the ability to learn" should trumps that as well, then.




And yet if the body has a trait, you are subjected to said trait. A Simulacrum's mental scores have nothing to do with its capacity to learn, as qube pointed out.




You have to admit that it makes it a pretty terrible prison, then.

I note that you have not commented on the rules of the PHB p. 203. Do you agree that you need the rubies and the diamond for those spells, now?



I'm actually 100% sincere. If you are just doing this like that without believing that your exploits and other methods are usable/should be used in-game and that caster supremacy is true, then I will apologize.

I consider the Simulacrum's inability to learn or regain spell slots to be the same as a Gnoll's desire to serve Yeengohu or a Grimlock's innate drive to serve Mind Flayers whenever possible. None of those core facets of their existence are attributed to mental scores or class or soul, as I've said, might as well be an aspect of their "metabolism", yet if you Magic Jar a Gnoll, you don't need to start serving Yeengohu, do you?

Because everyone, and I mean everyone assumes, that even if Gnoll or Grimlock metabolism was responsible for their behavior, the fact that your soul now possess their flesh and that you retain your mental ability scores, probably means that those aspects are trumped by the Magic Jar spell, or would you disagree?

It's already a terrible prison for creatures like Devils or any spellcaster, since virtually anything can use any magical planar travel method to escape. It isn't meant for trapping creatures with so much as Banishment or Plane Shift in their arsenal, much less trapping souls inside it.

[qube]

Are you high? Magic Jar makes you retain your own ( your soul's, which is what transfers to the body ) int, wis and cha. The target's ability scores are irrelevant. What the hell are you on about? Allow me to make this very simple.


Once you possess a creature's body, you control it. Your game Statistics are replaced by the Statistics of the creature though you retain your alignment and your Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores. You retain the benefit of your own class feature. If the target has any class levels, you can't use any of its Class Features.

-- Magic Jar


It appears to be the same as the original, but it has half the creature's hit point maximum and is formed without any Equipment. Otherwise, the Illusion uses all the Statistics of the creature it duplicates.

... The simulacrum lacks the ability to learn

-- simulacrum

By RAW: the simulacrum's inability to learn is irrelevant of it's ability scores. (a int 1 and int 20 simulacrum both can't learn)
that, by RAW, means that this game Statistics is not dependant on ability scores of the simulacrum.

Now, By RAW: using the magic Jar
(1) changing your game statistics with that of the simulacrum, would, in fact, give you that game Statistics as well
(2) retaining your alignment your alignment, doesn't alter this
(3) retaining your mental ability scores, doesn't alter this - as by raw, the game Statistics is dependant on your ability scores.
(4) retaining your class abilities, doesn't alter this

conclusion: as step 2, 3 nor 4 prevent you from gaining the inability to learn, you gain the inability to learn from step 1.

That is RAW.



Back in realityBut you can't do that mate: you burned that bridge.


>>> Back in reality - you can't magic jar with an illusion

<<< but but but you can by RAW !!!

>>> OK, but according to RAW you lose the ability to learn

<<< but but but back to reality !!!

Bottom line?
By RAW you can magic jar a simulacrum, but lose your ability to learn
By common sense, you can't magic jar an illusion
You can pick either of those, but this BS of RAW when it suits you and common sense when RAW doesn't - is just that. BS.

[qube]

Because everyone, and I mean everyone assumes, that even if Gnoll or Grimlock metabolism was responsible for their behavior, the fact that your soul now possess their flesh and that you retain your mental ability scores, probably means that those aspects are trumped by the Magic Jar spell, or would you disagree?Sorry mate, but nope. Magic jar into a
hobgoblin gives you access to it's saving face trait
orc gives you his agressive trait
kobold gives you pack tactic trait

D&D makes no distinction between traits a character gets biologically/physically (fire resistance for tieflings) and culturally (like dwarf proficiency with armor). racial traits are racial traits and magic jar gives you the racial traits of the target.

[Renduaz]

Allow me to make this very simple.


Once you possess a creature's body, you control it. Your game Statistics are replaced by the Statistics of the creature though you retain your alignment and your Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores. You retain the benefit of your own class feature. If the target has any class levels, you can't use any of its Class Features.

-- Magic Jar


It appears to be the same as the original, but it has half the creature's hit point maximum and is formed without any Equipment. Otherwise, the Illusion uses all the Statistics of the creature it duplicates.

... The simulacrum lacks the ability to learn

-- simulacrum

By RAW: the simulacrum's inability to learn is irrelevant of it's ability scores. (a int 1 and int 20 simulacrum both can't learn)
that, by RAW, means that this game Statistics is not dependant on ability scores of the simulacrum.

Now, By RAW: using the magic Jar
(1) changing your game statistics with that of the simulacrum, would, in fact, give you that game Statistics as well
(2) retaining your alignment your alignment, doesn't alter this
(3) retaining your mental ability scores, doesn't alter this - as by raw, the game Statistics is dependant on your ability scores.
(4) retaining your class abilities, doesn't alter this

conclusion: as step 2, 3 nor 4 prevent you from gaining the inability to learn, you gain the inability to learn from step 1.

That is RAW.


But you can't do that mate: you burned that bridge.


>>> Back in reality - you can't magic jar with an illusion

<<< but but but you can by RAW !!!

>>> OK, but according to RAW you lose the ability to learn

<<< but but but back to reality !!!

Bottom line?
By RAW you can magic jar a simulacrum, but lose your ability to learn
By common sense, you can't magic jar an illusion
You can pick either of those, but this BS of RAW when it suits you and common sense when RAW doesn't - is just that. BS.

You're right, by RAW there is nothing tying the Simulacrum's inability to learn to ability scores. Why does that matter? And no, it is not a "Game statistic". Otherwise your Simulacrum WOULD have the ability to learn, because the spell states that otherwise than half the hp and equipment, your Simulacrum has all of your statistics. Call it a "Trait", call it whatever you want. "Game statistics" have a defined meaning in the PHB.

(4) - Wrong. Regaining spell slots is a class feature. The Simulacrum can't do it. I can do it. When I use my magic jar, apparently it's enough for my soul to inhabit the target to retain my class features, and regaining spell slots is within my class features, therefore while the Simulacrum can't do it, MY soul inside the Simulacrum's body CAN do it.

Try again.

[Renduaz]

Sorry mate, but nope. Magic jar into a
hobgoblin gives you access to it's saving face trait
orc gives you his agressive trait
kobold gives you pack tactic trait

D&D makes no distinction between traits a character gets biologically/physically (fire resistance for tieflings) and culturally (like dwarf proficiency with armor). racial traits are racial traits and magic jar gives you the racial traits of the target.

So do I have to serve Yeengohu or act aggressively as an Orc while using Magic Jar, according to you? Nope, I can employ these things, which are mostly combat features, should I want to. And if an Orc can't do something while I can on my own class features, Magic Jar's override wins. An Orc can't spellcast, yet "it" can when my soul inhabits it's body via Magic Jar. A Simulacrum can't regain spell slots independently on it's own, just like the Orc doesn't have "spellcasting", but when I possess it with Magic Jar, my own class features take charge. Should be simple enough for you to understand.

[Luppers]

Hmph, it appears the PHB does describe it as such, which is pretty weird. In that case... interesting, Gate spell might represent a potential breach. I suppose, if someone did know your name, you might have to ward an area within the mirror's cell with private sanctum as well, where you will be present, and when you need to venture out, create the Simulacrum, Magic Jar into it, cast "Contingency" with "Banishment" for the circumstance of "When I step outside the warded area", which will take effect immediately, therefore before anyone could ever cast Gate on the Simulacrum, before it has already vanished from the mirror's cell.

To be fair, that would make the plane nigh impenetrable, without charming the simulacrum (give him a scroll of gate if he hasn't got a level 9 slot available, the simulacrum can target the plane).

But still, seems like a lot of effort and money for an effect that can be dispelled/destroyed relatively easily by the things a level 17 -20 wizard would have to deal with(low health, no healing, can only be repaired for a high cost, limited spell casting ability, a level 5 caster could dispel it).

Worst of all, imagine the psychological damage, if you do remember things from the simulacrum (I still think this is debatable RAW), you remember every death. Considering the relative fragility of the simulacrum, that is a LOT of deaths. The horror ... THE HORROR!!!

Btw, you would need to use plane shift, not banishment and contingency, since as the simulacrum was created in the extradimensional space, it is native to that space. It still has an instantaneous cast though and a separate sanctum could prevent divination and not travel (so no one, except maybe Gods, would know when to cast gate. If it is gods, you're done either way :smallwink:).

[qube]

"Game statistics" have a defined meaning in the PHB.on what page?

[Unoriginal]

I consider the Simulacrum's inability to learn or regain spell slots to be the same as a Gnoll's desire to serve Yeengohu or a Grimlock's innate drive to serve Mind Flayers whenever possible. None of those core facets of their existence are attributed to mental scores or class or soul, as I've said, might as well be an aspect of their "metabolism", yet if you Magic Jar a Gnoll, you don't need to start serving Yeengohu, do you?

Because everyone, and I mean everyone assumes, that even if Gnoll or Grimlock metabolism was responsible for their behavior, the fact that your soul now possess their flesh and that you retain your mental ability scores, probably means that those aspects are trumped by the Magic Jar spell, or would you disagree?

If you Magic Jar into a Gnoll, you will be able to do the Rampage special capacity, right? If you Magic Jar into a Grimlock, you will be able to use their Blindsight, right?

Despite the fact than Rampage is based on the Gnoll's bloodlust making them go in a frenzy (even when the Magic Jar's caster lacks such bloodlust normally), or the fact that it should be very disorientating to use a completely new sense you've never experienced before (unless the caster already has Blindsight, of course).


Why? Because it's part of the Gnoll's and the Grimlock's physical features, which the person casting Magic Jar is still tied to.

The Simulacrum's inability to learn isn't like a Gnoll worshiping Yeengohu, it's a feature of the Simulacrum's nature as a being. So someone Magic Jar-ing themselves into a Simulacrum would have to deal with that, the same way that they would have the capacity to use Rampage while possessing a Gnoll.

[Unoriginal]

If it is gods, you're done either way :smallwink:

Don't tell him that, he thinks Tiamat is a dumb bitch.

[Luppers]

If you Magic Jar into a Gnoll, you will be able to do the Rampage special capacity, right? If you Magic Jar into a Grimlock, you will be able to use their Blindsight, right?

Despite the fact than Rampage is based on the Gnoll's bloodlust making them go in a frenzy (even when the Magic Jar's caster lacks such bloodlust normally), or the fact that it should be very disorientating to use a completely new sense you've never experienced before (unless the caster already has Blindsight, of course).


Why? Because it's part of the Gnoll's and the Grimlock's physical features, which the person casting Magic Jar is still tied to.

The Simulacrum's inability to learn isn't like a Gnoll worshiping Yeengohu, it's a feature of the Simulacrum's nature as a being. So someone Magic Jar-ing themselves into a Simulacrum would have to deal with that, the same way that they would have the capacity to use Rampage while possessing a Gnoll.

Personally I agree with this interpretation, but to be completely honest this is a case of RAW unclear, since its not stated whether the inability to learn is a physical or mental restriction on the simulacrum.

[qube]

So do I have to serve Yeengohu or act aggressively as an Orc while using Magic Jar, according to you?
...
Should be simple enough for you to understand.Oh I understand. You're trying to weasel yourself out of it. But no dice: It's not your call to decide which abilities you get and which you don't. When you magic jar into a kobold/drow/..., you get sunlight sensitivity.


Try again. OK. since you failed to respond, I will try again

But you can't do that mate: you burned that bridge.


>>> Back in reality - you can't magic jar with an illusion

<<< but but but you can by RAW !!!

>>> OK, but according to RAW you lose the ability to learn

<<< but but but back to reality !!!

Bottom line?
By RAW you can magic jar a simulacrum, but lose your ability to learn
By common sense, you can't magic jar an illusion

You can pick either of those, but this BS of RAW when it suits you and common sense when RAW doesn't - is just that. BS.

[Nifft]

A lot of people arguing with the OP are missing the point. The trick is viable by certain interpretations of the RAW, as shown in the post. And it's well-researched. It's also something few DMs or players would ever think to allow or try.

This is like locate city bomb from 3.5e. It's questionable rules interactions that lead to an arguably RAW but definitely not RAI trick that goes against the spirit of the game. This is fun theory-crafting. That's all.

Don't argue it like you're sitting at the table with your hated enemy who wants to do this.

I feel like we need a "Theoretical Optimization" tag for the 5e forum for stuff like this.

That said, I think making TO cleave as close to the practical rules as possible is desirable, so I do find value in the discussion about how legal the rules (ab)uses are.

But yeah, I really wish people would dial down the acrimony.

[ThePolarBear]

Very well, but as I've said in the RAW that applies, I can still benefit from the Sanctum by simply entering the Mirror prior to doing everything, and having my Simulacrum complete the Sanctum spell afterwards, so it is not an obstacle, really.

Your Simulacrum is not going to have enough spell slots to cast Mordy's for enough times to actually make that permanent. For another simulacrum to reach your demiplane it would need your Mordy to be down. "Each day" is debatable on meaning, but i'm quite sure that it's not intended to be calendar days, but 24 hour periods - having the spell up 100% of the time, in other words.

[Hypersmith]

Oh, look, it's another "Renduaz has a fit when people oppose his ill-thought ideas" thread...

My head hurts. This thread spiraled way out of control.

[Unoriginal]

Your Simulacrum is not going to have enough spell slots to cast Mordy's for enough times to actually make that permanent. For another simulacrum to reach your demiplane it would need your Mordy to be down. "Each day" is debatable on meaning, but i'm quite sure that it's not intended to be calendar days, but 24 hour periods - having the spell up 100% of the time, in other words.

That's a good point.

[Easy_Lee]

By the way, couldn't you just leave a clone inside the mirror and rely on followers to get the clone out of the mirror if you die? Real gods have worshippers, and fade into antiquity without them. Seems like that would be the more reasonable way to create a pseudo-god.

Regardless, you probably wouldn't want to call yourself a god, or anything with "god" in the title. In Forgotten Realms, the gods are touchy, meddling creatures.

[Renduaz]

To be fair, that would make the plane nigh impenetrable, without charming the simulacrum (give him a scroll of gate if he hasn't got a level 9 slot available, the simulacrum can target the plane).

But still, seems like a lot of effort and money for an effect that can be dispelled/destroyed relatively easily by the things a level 17 -20 wizard would have to deal with(low health, no healing, can only be repaired for a high cost, limited spell casting ability, a level 5 caster could dispel it).

Worst of all, imagine the psychological damage, if you do remember things from the simulacrum (I still think this is debatable RAW), you remember every death. Considering the relative fragility of the simulacrum, that is a LOT of deaths. The horror ... THE HORROR!!!

Btw, you would need to use plane shift, not banishment and contingency, since as the simulacrum was created in the extradimensional space, it is native to that space. It still has an instantaneous cast though and a separate sanctum could prevent divination and not travel (so no one, except maybe Gods, would know when to cast gate. If it is gods, you're done either way :smallwink:).

You'd have to rely on Counterspells to deal with dispel magic attempts, while Antimagic Field which is extremely rare in monsters and high level would finish you on the spot, unless of course you could avoid it during combat or strike from afar and so on and so forth. Sure there are a lot of drawbacks, that's the cost of having an "Avatar" I guess.


on what page?

Actually in the MM, not the PHB, in page 6 it defines what a creature's "statistics" are, under the headline of "Statistics".


If you Magic Jar into a Gnoll, you will be able to do the Rampage special capacity, right? If you Magic Jar into a Grimlock, you will be able to use their Blindsight, right?

Despite the fact than Rampage is based on the Gnoll's bloodlust making them go in a frenzy (even when the Magic Jar's caster lacks such bloodlust normally), or the fact that it should be very disorientating to use a completely new sense you've never experienced before (unless the caster already has Blindsight, of course).


Why? Because it's part of the Gnoll's and the Grimlock's physical features, which the person casting Magic Jar is still tied to.

The Simulacrum's inability to learn isn't like a Gnoll worshiping Yeengohu, it's a feature of the Simulacrum's nature as a being. So someone Magic Jar-ing themselves into a Simulacrum would have to deal with that, the same way that they would have the capacity to use Rampage while possessing a Gnoll.

I will be able to do it should I want to during combat, sure, but I won't constantly experience the Gnollish hunger for creatures or turn on my party members. The common denominator is that is my own soul is always in control, that much is how magic jar works. If you wanna theorize how, then the best explanation is the fact it's your soul, and you retain your alignment, int, wis and cha ( Basically your entire personality ), but not STR, CON AND DEX ( The target's physical body ). Again, this is just the most rational explanation to something which is already a given, but regardless, your soul is in control with any humanoid you possess as a rule.

The Insatible Hunger and devotion to Yeengohu is also a feature of the Gnoll's very being, they are not having a "choice" in the matter, the MM and Volo's chapter are very clear on that. Yet you suffer from neither. We also have absolutely no information on what causes the Simulacrum's inability to learn ( Although if anything ,the most logical explanation would be the absence of free agency ), and your approach is the same as saying that someone Magic Jaring into a Gnoll won't be able to Spellcast, because Gnolls do not have Spellcasting.

"The Simulacrum can't regain spell slots. Therefore you won't be able to regain spell slots, which is a class feature, even though Magic Jar states that you retain your own class features when possessing a target"

"The Gnoll you possessed in that cave is unable to cast spells. Therefore you won't be able to Spellcast, which is a class feature, even though Magic Jar states that you retain your own class features when possessing a target"

Both are the same, both are wrong.


Don't tell him that, he thinks Tiamat is a dumb bitch.

She is, if you exhaust her legendary saves in a battle and succeed in casting "Imprisonment" using Slumber for instance, which can be done easily via Portent, she's done for. You can turn her into your personal mount with Planar Binding.


Oh I understand. You're trying to weasel yourself out of it. But no dice: It's not your call to decide which abilities you get and which you don't. When you magic jar into a kobold/drow/..., you get sunlight sensitivity.

OK. since you failed to respond, I will try again

But you can't do that mate: you burned that bridge.


>>> Back in reality - you can't magic jar with an illusion

<<< but but but you can by RAW !!!

>>> OK, but according to RAW you lose the ability to learn

<<< but but but back to reality !!!

Bottom line?
By RAW you can magic jar a simulacrum, but lose your ability to learn
By common sense, you can't magic jar an illusion

You can pick either of those, but this BS of RAW when it suits you and common sense when RAW doesn't - is just that. BS.


I'm not deciding which abilities I get and which I don't. Magic Jar decides that I retain my class features in whichever humanoid I possess, therefore I can regain spell slots. The Simulacrum's OWN abilities do not let it do so, just like a random Gnoll's OWN abilities don't give him the Spellcasting class feature, but when I possess them, I retain all of MY class features, regardless of what they can or can't do.

How many times more do we need to go through this?


Your Simulacrum is not going to have enough spell slots to cast Mordy's for enough times to actually make that permanent. For another simulacrum to reach your demiplane it would need your Mordy to be down. "Each day" is debatable on meaning, but i'm quite sure that it's not intended to be calendar days, but 24 hour periods - having the spell up 100% of the time, in other words.

Then it would seem that I'd have to enter the mirror ( Along with the Clone Vessel and Magic Jar container and gold ) as described in the first step, while it hangs on the wall of the Demiplane, while Private Sanctum is still not up, then creature a Simulacrum and Magic Jar into it, Plane shift into the Demiplane, and then start the yearly casting process with my own soul inside the Simulacrum and my class features, and proceed as planned.

[strangebloke]

So, I didn't say more earlier, but in light of the controversy I guess I will offer my 2cp:

magic jar into a simulacrum works very neatly.

'You can attempt to possess any humanoid within 100 feet of you that you can see '

So if the simulacrum is a humanoid creature, which it is, you can possess it.

As to not being able to learn... The exact text states:

'The simulacrum lacks the ability to learn or become more powerful, so it never increases its level or other Abilities, nor can it regain expended Spell Slots.'

I think the operative word here is 'lacks.' It isn't artificially restrained from learning, just incapable of it. If you use magic jar on a person who lacks the ability to read, you retain your ability to read. I don't see why this would be any different. 'Learning' is not a racial ability. No race has an explicit 'ability to learn.' Therefore, since its not an explicit ability, the rules do not specify that you retain it. Technically, the rules don't say that you, for instance, retain the ability to use logic. So I'd say that its squarely outside of RAW. As a DM, I'd allow it.

I'd also allow the gate to get inside of the mirror, which sort of ruins half of the point of this. But I wanted this as a hook for a villain anyway, so it leads to great fun where you have to find the villains 'true name.'

[Dalebert]

I'm not gonna do all this other stuph, but I'm grateful for the idea of creating a permanent Mordenkainen's Magnificent Mansion inside a personal Demiplane.

EDIT: Disregard. There's nothing about making it permanent with re-castings. It lasts 24 hours, period.

[Hypersmith]

I'm not gonna do all this other stuph, but I'm grateful for the idea of creating a permanent Mordenkainen's Magnificent Mansion inside a personal Demiplane.

EDIT: Disregard. There's nothing about making it permanent with re-castings. It lasts 24 hours, period.

you want Mord's private sanctum, not his mansion. It's something I've implemented into my game

[Dalebert]

you want Mord's private sanctum, not his mansion. It's something I've implemented into my game

Yeah, I caught that upon re-reading.

[Unoriginal]

She is, if you exhaust her legendary saves in a battle and succeed in casting "Imprisonment" using Slumber for instance, which can be done easily via Portent, she's done for. You can turn her into your personal mount with Planar Binding.


Ah, yes, silly me, I forgot how easy it was to trick the super-genius dragon goddess into expending all her legendary saves when she's immune to every spells you have except your 4 strongest ones, and advantage to resist on those.

Oh, also, she got +17 in Wisdom, so the only way your Imprisonment is going to affect Tiamat is if you got a 1 on one of your Portent dice, assuming that you actually managed to exhaust her legendary saves AND that you manage to walk inside 30 feet of her and cast your spell for one minute (maintaining concentration all the way) while carrying 15000 gp of rare herbs.

How you're going to stay within 30 feet of Tiamat when she got 120 ft of fly speed and the capacity to go back to her home plane with a bonus action (thanks to Divine Word) if things even start looking back, while you have to maintain concentration is another story, of course.

So, be my guest: please tell us how you are going to easily make Tiamat stay in range for one minute as you cast an easily-identifiable spell who can only affect her if you're within 30 feet and if you have a Portent die with 1, and this after having made her use all her 5 legendary saves when each full caster in your party has a maximum of 4 spell slots that can affect her.

Show this "dumb bitch" who's the boss.

[ThePolarBear]

...Imprisonment...

... is actually a fantastic option to obtain pretty similar results with just a single spell.

Little addition, since i missed it before the edit: No rule to opt to fail saving throws. No RAI on that, either, since there's no rule. (http://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/04/17/can-a-person-willingly-fail-a-saving-throw/) Dm has 100% the power here.

[EvilAnagram]

You'd have to rely on Counterspells to deal with dispel magic attempts, while Antimagic Field which is extremely rare in monsters and high level would finish you on the spot, unless of course you could avoid it during combat or strike from afar and so on and so forth. Sure there are a lot of drawbacks, that's the cost of having an "Avatar" I guess.
So you're a "god" whose biggest weakness is a Subtle Sorcerer with Dispel Magic?

Who dies if a Beholder sees him?


She is, if you exhaust her legendary saves in a battle and succeed in casting "Imprisonment" using Slumber for instance, which can be done easily via Portent, she's done for. You can turn her into your personal mount with Planar Binding.

I doubt you're capable of pulling any of that off, especially since it relies a good bit on luck.

[Unoriginal]

... is actually a fantastic option to obtain pretty similar results with just a single spell.

Similar to what? I doubt it'd work on someone using Magic Jar.

[qube]

I think the operative word here is 'lacks.' It isn't artificially restrained from learning, just incapable of it. If you use magic jar on a person who lacks the ability to read, you retain your ability to read. I don't see why this would be any different. 'Learning' is not a racial ability. No race has an explicit 'ability to learn.' Therefore, since its not an explicit ability, the rules do not specify that you retain it. Technically, the rules don't say that you, for instance, retain the ability to use logic. So I'd say that its squarely outside of RAW. As a DM, I'd allow it.I'm afraid you're wrong. Two points:

(1) I can refer to you to Kenku. Kenku have the opposite problem: they are able to learn, but don't have the creativity to adapt it - and such they can only speak sentences they have heard, not make new sentences. If you magic jar into a kenku, you are also stuck with that.

(2) An even more simple example: an elf wizard magic jarring into an orc loses the ability to read, write and understand elvish; and gains the ability to read write and understand orcish.

Edit: that seems to be the confusion: there's a difference between jarring into an orc to stupid to read (at which point, as you retain your ability score, you become smart enough to read), and jumping into a race with the inability to read (for example like Kenku, they process information differently ; or a grimlock - who's blind).


I'm not deciding which abilities I get and which I don't. Magic Jar decides that I retain my class features in whichever humanoid I possess, therefore I can regain spell slots. The Simulacrum's OWN abilities do not let it do so, just like a random Gnoll's OWN abilities don't give him the Spellcasting class feature, but when I possess them, I retain all of MY class features, regardless of what they can or can't do.This has nothing to do with the discussion about regain spells - this predates that argument. And opposite to the ability to regain spells, inability to learn is not a class ability, so, again, you try to dodge the point.


>>> Back in reality - you can't magic jar with an illusion

<<< but but but you can by RAW !!!

>>> OK, but according to RAW you lose the ability to learn

<<< but but but back to reality !!!

Bottom line?

By RAW you can magic jar a simulacrum, but lose your ability to learn
By common sense, you can't magic jar an illusion

You can pick either of those, but this BS of RAW when it suits you and common sense when RAW doesn't - is just that. BS.

[ThePolarBear]

Similar to what? I doubt it'd work on someone using Magic Jar.

Similar to the whole Demiplane+Mordy+Mirror.

You can cast it on yourself, can end up in a place that's already shaped in a way that's conveninent for you, you do not age or whatever, can't be tracked or divined.
You get teleported in places where people can't usually enter since those are warded, the spell does not prevent the creature to act, usually, and can be ended by having particular phrase or by casting Dispel Magic at 9th level on the material component for the spell (that you can very much carry with you).

Pros? One slot, 1 minute cast, the place you end up is already shaped to be somewhat confortable...
Cons? The place you end up is not tecnically infinite. You'll have problems carrying your "treasure" - if it is even allowed to begin with.. no mention of possessions.

It's pretty much the whole initial idea with less costs. Not that i think a use like that is intended in any way shape or form or that any DM would let a player use it this way, it was just a momentary thought that i had while reading your comment.

[Zalabim]

In the case of possessing a Simulacrum's body, the only features you keep (alignment, mental ability scores, and class features) are features that a simulacrum of the caster already possesses, but don't change that the simulacrum cannot learn or regain spell slots. If you possess a creature that lacks eyes, you won't be able to see. If you possess a creature that lacks a brain, lacks a real body, or lacks whatever it is that the simulacrum is lacking, then you also would suffer from that lack. I think by RAW, you inherit the simulacrum's limitations while you inhabit its body. Not that there's anything OP about going around and living as a simulacrum of yourself.

You do need a real caster to make the demiplane into a permanent private sanctum, and I'm still not sure that blocks Demiplane from opening a door to the area, since the door would be on the border of the warded area.

[Renduaz]

Ah, yes, silly me, I forgot how easy it was to trick the super-genius dragon goddess into expending all her legendary saves when she's immune to every spells you have except your 4 strongest ones, and advantage to resist on those.

Oh, also, she got +17 in Wisdom, so the only way your Imprisonment is going to affect Tiamat is if you got a 1 on one of your Portent dice, assuming that you actually managed to exhaust her legendary saves AND that you manage to walk inside 30 feet of her and cast your spell for one minute (maintaining concentration all the way) while carrying 15000 gp of rare herbs.

How you're going to stay within 30 feet of Tiamat when she got 120 ft of fly speed and the capacity to go back to her home plane with a bonus action (thanks to Divine Word) if things even start looking back, while you have to maintain concentration is another story, of course.

So, be my guest: please tell us how you are going to easily make Tiamat stay in range for one minute as you cast an easily-identifiable spell who can only affect her if you're within 30 feet and if you have a Portent die with 1, and this after having made her use all her 5 legendary saves when each full caster in your party has a maximum of 4 spell slots that can affect her.

Show this "dumb bitch" who's the boss.

A party with so much as 2 Divination Wizards above level 14 or 3 characters who multiclassed 2 levels into Divination Wizard and someone with high-level spellcasting could exhaust her legendary saves with Polymorph and Portent ( It takes months to prepare the armies and everything to fight her in the adventure module, a few more nights of getting a ****ty roll before confronting her won't be a problem ), or even better yet, Banishment ( CHA save ) which she doesn't have a bonus for. Where Tiamat appears, it took a ****ing ****ton of work to open the portal for her to enter the Prime Material in the first place, so apparently for some reason she's unable to just show up on the Prime Material nilly-willy. I'm pretty sure that, not even knowing what might be coming next, she will absolutely not intend ( Nor would the DM who's unaware of your plan ) to be a snail at your disposal for an hour with Polymorph or to get banished back to her home plane. A "Flesh to Stone" spell with Portent each time she makes the save ( CON save ) will also make her use her legendary resistance. An unwilling Plane Shift to Carceri or Mount Celestia ( CHA save ) will probably make her waste it too.

A Feeblemind is most definitely going to make her waste her legendary save, and should probably be used last with Portent since if she fails, her INT and CHA are down to 1, and I don't even know which "friends" she has to protect as long as you don't even attack them, and regardless if it's only her in the chamber, since she devours everyone else in the adventure module.

And I'm going to make her stay in range with Polymorph at the end in all likelihood, saving a roll of 1 if you want just for that final blow. Banishment, Plane Shift, Flesh to Stone and Feeblemind are all different levels spells anyway so any party with 2 Div Wizards or 3 level 2 Div multiclassers and a level 18 spellcasters can exhaust her saves that way eventually.




So you're a "god" whose biggest weakness is a Subtle Sorcerer with Dispel Magic?

Who dies if a Beholder sees him?



I doubt you're capable of pulling any of that off, especially since it relies a good bit on luck.

Yep, you're a pseudo-god. Nothing is perfect. But as I've told you, you can emerge yourself instead of the Simulacrum in case you're not afraid of being trapped.


I'm afraid you're wrong. Two points:

(1) I can refer to you to Kenku. Kenku have the opposite problem: they are able to learn, but don't have the creativity to adapt it - and such they can only speak sentences they have heard, not make new sentences. If you magic jar into a kenku, you are also stuck with that.

(2) An even more simple example: an elf wizard magic jarring into an orc loses the ability to read, write and understand elvish; and gains the ability to read write and understand orcish.

Edit: that seems to be the confusion: there's a difference between jarring into an orc to stupid to read (at which point, as you retain your ability score, you become smart enough to read), and jumping into a race with the inability to read (for example like Kenku, they process information differently ; or a grimlock - who's blind).

This has nothing to do with the discussion about regain spells - this predates that argument. And opposite to the ability to regain spells, inability to learn is not a class ability, so, again, you try to dodge the point.


>>> Back in reality - you can't magic jar with an illusion

<<< but but but you can by RAW !!!

>>> OK, but according to RAW you lose the ability to learn

<<< but but but back to reality !!!

Bottom line?

By RAW you can magic jar a simulacrum, but lose your ability to learn
By common sense, you can't magic jar an illusion

You can pick either of those, but this BS of RAW when it suits you and common sense when RAW doesn't - is just that. BS.

Man, so many lies in a single post. First of all, in Volo's Guide, under "An Ancient Curse", it explicitly states that the Kenku's masters tore the spark of creativity from THEIR SOULS. Guess what Magic Jar does? You'll be able to process information as much as you want, you just won't be able to vocalize it because their master also took away their voice.

And your second example is hilariously wrong. Do you think that if a player Magic Jars into a Drow, he can no longer speak Common, if that Drow only knew Elvish and Undercommon? Your game statistics are replaced by the target's, sure, and languages are within the statistics block ( Glad you realize that in the RAW properly at least ), except for one problem - A language is also an acquired statistic, and Magic Jar doesn't prevent you from something like, say, studying history while in a braindead Gnoll's body. And since your very soul as well as your INT, WIS and CHA are retained, you already know Common.

So the statistics are replaced, but the language is then immediately added right away since you already know it. It's as if you possessed a Drow with Magic Jar and then spent a year studying common if your mind didn't know it already, the language "Common" would be added to your game statistics. Except if you know Common to begin with, you just "study it" instantly upon possessing the Drow, because it's already in your mind and memories.

Saying otherwise is like saying Magic Jar makes you lose all your memories upon entering the target. You wouldn't need to spend time studying common to add it after it was replaced, since you already have Common memorized.

The only obstacle is when it comes to vocalization. You could try speaking Common as a Gnoll for instance, but it would just come out horribly raspy. A Grimlock's blindness is utterly irrelevant, that's a facet of it's body, and Magic Jar makes your soul enter it's body. Do you even have a point?

Lastly, so you are not arguing about regaining spells then, only about a general "ability to learn"? So as I've told you before, we know that it's "inability to learn" is absolutely NOT a "game statistics", since Simulacrum states - "It appears to be the same as the original, but it has half the creature's hit point maximum and is formed without any equipment. Otherwise, the illusion uses all the statistics of the creature it duplicates.", therefore when I use Magic Jar on the Simulacrum, it not replaced as a game statistic, per the Magic Jar spell.

So all we're left with is it is some kind of undefined trait about the Simulacrum. It is not Blindsight nor the Mimicry, which are both in the actual game statistic block of their respective creatures. Since I retain my class features, my soul, my INT, WIS and CHA ( Which, By RAW in the PHB, are your actual intelligence, wisdom and charisma in your mind, not just empty amorphous stats ), and since nothing about my game statistics relating to my ability to learn, nor my soul, nor my mind has been replaced with the Simulacrum's, then there is no difference between my ability to learn before or afterwards.

Again, since you seem to have serious reading comprehension in everthing, I'll repeat in bold words - "Inability to learn" is NOT a game statistic. It does not replace ANY of my own when I magic Jar into the Simulacrum. Therefore, just like a Gnoll's tendency to serve Yeengohu, it's complete irrelevant when I possess it. It's something which applies to the creature on it's own.



In the case of possessing a Simulacrum's body, the only features you keep (alignment, mental ability scores, and class features) are features that a simulacrum of the caster already possesses, but don't change that the simulacrum cannot learn or regain spell slots. If you possess a creature that lacks eyes, you won't be able to see. If you possess a creature that lacks a brain, lacks a real body, or lacks whatever it is that the simulacrum is lacking, then you also would suffer from that lack. I think by RAW, you inherit the simulacrum's limitations while you inhabit its body. Not that there's anything OP about going around and living as a simulacrum of yourself.

You do need a real caster to make the demiplane into a permanent private sanctum, and I'm still not sure that blocks Demiplane from opening a door to the area, since the door would be on the border of the warded area.

Already answered.

>If you possess a creature that lacks eyes, you won't be able to see.

Which is a game statistic ( Senses ) and a function of it's body.

>lacks a brain,

Wrong. You clearly have no idea what you're talking about. Tell me, how come your INT, WIS, and CHA scores are transferred, exactly the same, along with your soul? If they were an aspect of your brain rather than your soul in D&D, Magic Jar wouldn't let you retain them. You can possess a drooling brain damaged humanoid with half of it's frontal lobe missing and you'll still have exactly the same INT, WIS, CHA and alignment. That's the RAW and RAI of Magic Jar, period.

[Jaxter Gronaldi]

@zalabim, @renduaz, you both make very good points about something that DOES NOT FUNCTION RAW, and this has to be used RAI, and you both interpret it differently. You will likely never come to agree on this.

[Luppers]

A party with so much as 2 Divination Wizards above level 14 or 3 characters who multiclassed 2 levels into Divination Wizard and someone with high-level spellcasting could exhaust her legendary saves with Polymorph and Portent ( It takes months to prepare the armies and everything to fight her in the adventure module, a few more nights of getting a ****ty roll before confronting her won't be a problem ), or even better yet, Banishment ( CHA save ) which she doesn't have a bonus for. Where Tiamat appears, it took a ****ing ****ton of work to open the portal for her to enter the Prime Material in the first place, so apparently for some reason she's unable to just show up on the Prime Material nilly-willy. I'm pretty sure that, not even knowing what might be coming next, she will absolutely not intend ( Nor would the DM who's unaware of your plan ) to be a snail at your disposal for an hour with Polymorph or to get banished back to her home plane. A "Flesh to Stone" spell with Portent each time she makes the save ( CON save ) will also make her use her legendary resistance. An unwilling Plane Shift to Carceri or Mount Celestia ( CHA save ) will probably make her waste it too.

A Feeblemind is most definitely going to make her waste her legendary save, and should probably be used last with Portent since if she fails, her INT and CHA are down to 1, and I don't even know which "friends" she has to protect as long as you don't even attack them, and regardless if it's only her in the chamber, since she devours everyone else in the adventure module.

And I'm going to make her stay in range with Polymorph at the end in all likelihood, saving a roll of 1 if you want just for that final blow. Banishment, Plane Shift, Flesh to Stone and Feeblemind are all different levels spells anyway so any party with 2 Div Wizards or 3 level 2 Div multiclassers and a level 18 spellcasters can exhaust her saves that way eventually.

So, unless weakened, Tiamat is immune to spells of 6th level or lower, including banishment and polymorph, and since you are waiting "a few more nights of getting a ****ty roll before confronting" she won't be weakened. You would need to cast 5 save or suck spells of level 7 or higher. A quick look at spells of the appropriate level which apply:
Plane shift - 7th level, range of touch, requires spell attack - to succeed this would require a caster to get to melee with Tiamat, succeed on with the spell attack against an AC of 25 and tiamat to roll 9 or lower or use a portent die. That is a pretty difficult challenge
Dominate monster - 8th level, wisdom save - you'd need to use a portent die which rolled 1 to get this to work
Feeblemind - 8th level, intelligence save - this would work, but only once
Maze - 8th level, no save , Tiamat likely returns in 1 or 2 rounds, or just waits the whole time and regenerates.
Imprisonment - 9th level, wisdom save, 1 min cast time - good luck maintaining concentration for 1 minute, with no clear way of preventing her actions.
True polymorph - 9th level, wisdom save - once again you'd need another 1 on the portent die
Weird - 9th level, wisdom save - see above

So, unless your casters are willing to risk getting into melee with a god, each one can attempt 2 spells to remove legendary resistances. That means a minimum of 3 level 17+ spell casters are needed, 2 of which being div wizards (or 3 multiclass div wizards), who all rolled low on their portent dice to remove the legendary resistances AND prevent Tiamat from breaking the concentration on the caster casting imprisonment. Meanwhile Tiamat is getting 3 attacks per turn, a reaction every turn, and 5 legendary actions, allowing for 2 breath attacks (averaging at around 70 -90 damage per breath) and another attack, per round. And that's ignoring the fact she may have allies with her.

[qube]

Man, so much ignorance and lying in a single post, it's amazing, really.I can only presume you are talking about your own post here.


You probably think that nobody is going to do the research and call you out, do you? First of all, in Volo's Guide, under "An Ancient Curse", it explicitly states that the Kenku's masters tore the spark of creativity from THEIR SOULS. Guess what Magic Jar does, sunshine? /facepalm.
-- you

Magic jar gives you the game statistics of the kenku.

Mimicry & inability to speak other then mimicry are game statistics of a kenku.

#RocketScienceItIsNot


And your second example is hilariously wrong. Do you think that if a player Magic Jars into a Drow, he can no longer speak Common, if that Drow only knew Elvish and Undercommon? Your game statistics are replaced by the target's, sure, and languages are within the statistics block ( Glad you realize that in the RAW properly at least ), except for one problem - A language is also an acquired statistic, and Magic Jar doesn't prevent you from something like, say, studying history while in a braindead Gnoll's body.
-- you

Here's the problem mate,
Language is a game statistic - as you agree with.
D&D AFAIK doesn't even have something called acquired statistic. Book + page?
Magic Jar tells us what happens with the game statistic, and sure as heck doesn't differentiate between acquired statistic and other game statistics.


So the statistics are replaced, but the language is then immediately added right away since you already know it.
-- you

Liar liar pants on fire. Here's magic jar (http://5e.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magicJar.htm). It does not do what you claim it does. There is no "X added right away since you already know it."


Saying otherwise is like saying Magic Jar makes you lose all your memories upon entering the target.
-- you

Hey, don't forget you are the one who wants to use the RAW Magic Jar, so don't cry to me RAW Magic Jar doesn't make sense. We ALL agree it doesn't, because RAW magic jar allows you to swap souls with an illusion. But hey, when it doesn't suit you, you don't give 2 cents that illusion being humanoid is only some "acquired statistic" opposite to a natural one.

So, hey, bottomline? either stop using RAW magic jar, or stop complaining RAW magic jar doesn't make sense. But you can't have it both ways.


Lastly, so you are not arguing about regaining spells then, only about a general "ability to learn"?
-- you

I was arguing about ability to learn.

When one regains spells is undisputably a game statistics (as it's undisputably essential to know if a spell is at will or 1/short rest or 1/long rest - making it, by the definition you pointed to, a game statistic)

And the question "yeah, but I have an ability that lets me regain spells, so we don't know which overrides which" is frankly, just plain silly. The ability is specifically made for creatures that can cast, and regain, spells. A simulacrum of a wizard and a magic jarred simulacrum of a wizard both have the same 'regain spells ability'. As it's clear that the 'don't regain spells abiliy' overrides the 'regain spells ability' for the first, it also does so for the second.

it's so silly, it's not even a decent thought excersice.


@zalabim, @renduaz, you both make very good points about something that DOES NOT FUNCTION RAW, and this has to be used RAI, and you both interpret it differently. the lack of any wording what happens with a humanoid without a soul - makes it pretty clear it's not intended to be used on an illusionairy human.

Heck, notes how it even talks about dying. Does a dispelled illusion die? Doesn't it simply disappear? Even the description of Simulacrum stays away from that term - as an Simulacrum was never really alive to begin with.

[Unoriginal]

A party with so much as 2 Divination Wizards above level 14 or 3 characters who multiclassed 2 levels into Divination Wizard and someone with high-level spellcasting could exhaust her legendary saves with Polymorph and Portent ( It takes months to prepare the armies and everything to fight her in the adventure module, a few more nights of getting a ****ty roll before confronting her won't be a problem ), or even better yet, Banishment ( CHA save ) which she doesn't have a bonus for. Where Tiamat appears, it took a ****ing ****ton of work to open the portal for her to enter the Prime Material in the first place, so apparently for some reason she's unable to just show up on the Prime Material nilly-willy. I'm pretty sure that, not even knowing what might be coming next, she will absolutely not intend ( Nor would the DM who's unaware of your plan ) to be a snail at your disposal for an hour with Polymorph or to get banished back to her home plane. A "Flesh to Stone" spell with Portent each time she makes the save ( CON save ) will also make her use her legendary resistance. An unwilling Plane Shift to Carceri or Mount Celestia ( CHA save ) will probably make her waste it too.

A Feeblemind is most definitely going to make her waste her legendary save, and should probably be used last with Portent since if she fails, her INT and CHA are down to 1, and I don't even know which "friends" she has to protect as long as you don't even attack them, and regardless if it's only her in the chamber, since she devours everyone else in the adventure module.

And I'm going to make her stay in range with Polymorph at the end in all likelihood, saving a roll of 1 if you want just for that final blow. Banishment, Plane Shift, Flesh to Stone and Feeblemind are all different levels spells anyway so any party with 2 Div Wizards or 3 level 2 Div multiclassers and a level 18 spellcasters can exhaust her saves that way eventually.


Tiamat is immune to Polymorph and Banished, due to them being below-than-6th-level spells.

Plane Shift and Feeblemind could affect her, true, but Plane Shift is touch range, meaning that if you get close enough and Tiamat decides to use her legendary resistance,your caster is in range for her legendary actions, which is enough to one-turn-kill many casters, and even if Tiamat let Feeblemind hit her, it won't make her less hostile to you. She's still more than able to wreck adventurers' faces.

Furthermore, your party of three lvl 18 casters (or 4 with three multiclassers) have only 3 slots for spells that can affect Tiamat per person(unless the three multiclassers took non-caster levels, in which cast they have 2 slots but no spell that can affect her), for a total of 9 spells.

So, let me recap: a maximum of 9 spells that can affect the enemy, 6 Portents, and a goddess that can kill basically any one of the heroes each turn.

Sure sounds easy.


So, unless weakened, Tiamat is immune to spells of 6th level or lower, including banishment and polymorph, and since you are waiting "a few more nights of getting a ****ty roll before confronting" she won't be weakened. You would need to cast 5 save or suck spells of level 7 or higher. A quick look at spells of the appropriate level which apply:
Plane shift - 7th level, range of touch, requires spell attack - to succeed this would require a caster to get to melee with Tiamat, succeed on with the spell attack against an AC of 25 and tiamat to roll 9 or lower or use a portent die. That is a pretty difficult challenge
Dominate monster - 8th level, wisdom save - you'd need to use a portent die which rolled 1 to get this to work
Feeblemind - 8th level, intelligence save - this would work, but only once
Maze - 8th level, no save , Tiamat likely returns in 1 or 2 rounds, or just waits the whole time and regenerates.
Imprisonment - 9th level, wisdom save, 1 min cast time - good luck maintaining concentration for 1 minute, with no clear way of preventing her actions.
True polymorph - 9th level, wisdom save - once again you'd need another 1 on the portent die
Weird - 9th level, wisdom save - see above

So, unless your casters are willing to risk getting into melee with a god, each one can attempt 2 spells to remove legendary resistances. That means a minimum of 3 level 17+ spell casters are needed, 2 of which being div wizards (or 3 multiclass div wizards), who all rolled low on their portent dice to remove the legendary resistances AND prevent Tiamat from breaking the concentration on the caster casting imprisonment. Meanwhile Tiamat is getting 3 attacks per turn, a reaction every turn, and 5 legendary actions, allowing for 2 breath attacks (averaging at around 70 -90 damage per breath) and another attack, per round. And that's ignoring the fact she may have allies with her.


Didn't see that, sorry.

Also let's not forget that Tiamat will fly if given the chance.

[Lombra]

So, I didn't say more earlier, but in light of the controversy I guess I will offer my 2cp:

magic jar into a simulacrum works very neatly.

'You can attempt to possess any humanoid within 100 feet of you that you can see '

So if the simulacrum is a humanoid creature, which it is, you can possess it.

As to not being able to learn... The exact text states:

'The simulacrum lacks the ability to learn or become more powerful, so it never increases its level or other Abilities, nor can it regain expended Spell Slots.'

I think the operative word here is 'lacks.' It isn't artificially restrained from learning, just incapable of it. If you use magic jar on a person who lacks the ability to read, you retain your ability to read. I don't see why this would be any different. 'Learning' is not a racial ability. No race has an explicit 'ability to learn.' Therefore, since its not an explicit ability, the rules do not specify that you retain it. Technically, the rules don't say that you, for instance, retain the ability to use logic. So I'd say that its squarely outside of RAW. As a DM, I'd allow it.

I'd also allow the gate to get inside of the mirror, which sort of ruins half of the point of this. But I wanted this as a hook for a villain anyway, so it leads to great fun where you have to find the villains 'true name.'

I don't get why one would allow simulacrum to be a target of magic jar. It's an illusory duplicate, made of snow. It has no soul. It isn't even a humanoid, it's a spell.

Edit: can you magic jar into a construct? No. Can you magic jar into an illusion? No. Just because it has the shape of a humanoid it doesn't make it a humanoid.

[strangebloke]

The possessed creature's 'statistics' replace yours. But the simulacrum doesn't have a stat block. So its up to us to judge what would be on that stat block. Which is a dodgy business, sure, but let's have a go anyway.

'statistics' is defined as:

"statistics, sometimes referred to as its stat block, provide the essential information that you need to run the monster."

HP, saves, abilities are all included in this. I would argue that he inability to learn would be covered under 'Special Traits,' which are defined as:

"characteristics that are likely to be relevant in a Combat encounter and that require some explanation."

Notably, the Kenku statblock does not include that they have no creativity, which is the reason in lore that they cannot speak without using mimicry. The stat block says that they cannot speak without using their mimicry, without addressing the underlying reason. So by RAW, there is nothing preventing you from playing an extremely creative Kenku, or to stop a character magic jaring into a kenku and retaining his creativity. (Although he would still not be able to speak normally, despite having the capability to do so.)

This feels very awkward rules-wise.

So by RAW, I would argue that it is ambiguous whether the simulacrum would have a 'cannot learn' line item on their stat block. It would definitely have somewhere on its stat block that it's innate spellcasting is not x/day, but is rather x/[lifespan]. Most things that lack the ability to learn, such as golems, gibbering mouthers, etc. do not have a 'cannot learn' special trait.

As far as RAI? Why can't you posses an illusory copy of you? It's a physical, corporeal, human body. It's at least as fitting as the jar. If you did possess it, why would lose the ability to learn things? There's no evidence that you interact with the memories of the creature you posses in any fashion. He doesn't gain your memories and you don't gain his.

[strangebloke]

It isn't even a humanoid, it's a spell. No. Just because it has the shape of a humanoid it doesn't make it a humanoid.

You are demonstrably wrong on this point.

from Roll20's SRD:

'The duplicate is a creature... it can take actions and otherwise be affected as a normal creature... the Illusion uses all the Statistics of the creature it duplicates.'

Race and type are considered to be 'Statistics.' 'Humanoid' is a type. Ergo the illusion uses the type, 'humanoid' of the creature it duplicates.

[Luppers]

The possessed creature's 'statistics' replace yours. But the simulacrum doesn't have a stat block. So its up to us to judge what would be on that stat block. Which is a dodgy business, sure, but let's have a go anyway.

'statistics' is defined as:

"statistics, sometimes referred to as its stat block, provide the essential information that you need to run the monster."

HP, saves, abilities are all included in this. I would argue that he inability to learn would be covered under 'Special Traits,' which are defined as:

"characteristics that are likely to be relevant in a Combat encounter and that require some explanation."

Notably, the Kenku statblock does not include that they have no creativity, which is the reason in lore that they cannot speak without using mimicry. The stat block says that they cannot speak without using their mimicry, without addressing the underlying reason. So by RAW, there is nothing preventing you from playing an extremely creative Kenku, or to stop a character magic jaring into a kenku and retaining his creativity. (Although he would still not be able to speak normally, despite having the capability to do so.)

This feels very awkward rules-wise.

So by RAW, I would argue that it is ambiguous whether the simulacrum would have a 'cannot learn' line item on their stat block. It would definitely have somewhere on its stat block that it could only cast a limited number of spells in its whole lifetime. Most things that lack the ability to learn, such as golems, gibbering mouthers, etc. do not have a 'cannot learn' special trait.

As far as RAI? Why can't you posses an illusory copy of you? It's a physical, corporeal, human body. It's at least as fitting jar. If you did possess it, why would lose the ability to learn things? There's no evidence that you interact with the memories of the creature you posses in any fashion. He doesn't gain your memories and you don't gain his.


You shape an illusory duplicate of one beast or humanoid that is within range for the entire casting time of the spell. The duplicate is a creature, partially real and formed from ice or snow, and it can take actions and otherwise be affected as a normal creature. It appears to be the same as the original, but it has half the creature's hit point maximum and is formed without any equipment. Otherwise, the illusion uses all the statistics of the creature it duplicates.

2 things: 1. Apart from a couple exceptions, the simulacrum has the statistics of the creature it duplicates
2. It's technically a physical, corporeal snowman which looks human(or whatever was copied)

[Lombra]

You are demonstrably wrong on this point.

from Roll20's SRD:

'The duplicate is a creature... it can take actions and otherwise be affected as a normal creature... the Illusion uses all the Statistics of the creature it duplicates.'

Race and type are considered to be 'Statistics.' 'Humanoid' is a type. Ergo the illusion uses the type, 'humanoid' of the creature it duplicates.

So you reckon that hold person would work on a simulacrum of yourself.

[Unoriginal]

It's a physical, corporeal, human body.

No it's not. It's a pile of snow with an illusion on it to make it looks like an humanoid or beast and do actions with plenty of limitations.

Even the spell notes that it's nothing but an illusory duplicate.

You can't cast True Resurrection on a Simulacrum, yes?

[Luppers]

So you reckon that hold person would work on a simulacrum of yourself.

This is an interesting point, but wouldn't it count as a construct? as it " is a creature, partially real and formed from ice or snow"

[Puh Laden]

But a simulacrum of a PC isn't a humanoid; nothing in the "racial traits" section gives a PC the humanoid type!

[Renduaz]

So, unless weakened, Tiamat is immune to spells of 6th level or lower, including banishment and polymorph, and since you are waiting "a few more nights of getting a ****ty roll before confronting" she won't be weakened. You would need to cast 5 save or suck spells of level 7 or higher. A quick look at spells of the appropriate level which apply:
Plane shift - 7th level, range of touch, requires spell attack - to succeed this would require a caster to get to melee with Tiamat, succeed on with the spell attack against an AC of 25 and tiamat to roll 9 or lower or use a portent die. That is a pretty difficult challenge
Dominate monster - 8th level, wisdom save - you'd need to use a portent die which rolled 1 to get this to work
Feeblemind - 8th level, intelligence save - this would work, but only once
Maze - 8th level, no save , Tiamat likely returns in 1 or 2 rounds, or just waits the whole time and regenerates.
Imprisonment - 9th level, wisdom save, 1 min cast time - good luck maintaining concentration for 1 minute, with no clear way of preventing her actions.
True polymorph - 9th level, wisdom save - once again you'd need another 1 on the portent die
Weird - 9th level, wisdom save - see above

So, unless your casters are willing to risk getting into melee with a god, each one can attempt 2 spells to remove legendary resistances. That means a minimum of 3 level 17+ spell casters are needed, 2 of which being div wizards (or 3 multiclass div wizards), who all rolled low on their portent dice to remove the legendary resistances AND prevent Tiamat from breaking the concentration on the caster casting imprisonment. Meanwhile Tiamat is getting 3 attacks per turn, a reaction every turn, and 5 legendary actions, allowing for 2 breath attacks (averaging at around 70 -90 damage per breath) and another attack, per round. And that's ignoring the fact she may have allies with her.

Why are you not weakening Tiamat if you're resting for a few days before going to her temple? Severe damage to the temple, stopping the sacrifice of prisoners, holding a dragon mask and removing the Mask of the Dragon Queen from Severin all really happen when you begin heading to stop the ritual through the caverns already. You take the long rest preparations before that.

It's not going to be an easy feat, but it's hardly improbable when you're already at that level, have Wish, Time Stop and a full party not to mention allies and potentially already a bunch of Planar Bound creatures to fight with you. A Trickery Cleric 2/Div Wizard 18 could use Invoke Duplicity+Forcecage for instance to withstand anything she can throw for 10 rounds, which while forfeiting Polymorph for concentration, which still leaves us with, at level 2, with a weakened Tiamat - Banishment and Flesh to Stone, or even if not weakened, then 2 Plane Shifts, a Feeblemind, possibly more if you saved some high level scrolls for the fight, which you should, the other party's member's save-or-suck abilities like a Monk's Quivering Palm. At any rate you would only need a single high-level spellcaster in the party ( Preferably a Div Wizard ) and either another spellcaster or someone who can impose a save-or-suck on her, and the rest of the party potentially dipping 2 levels into Portent to just to have twice the rolls available, which wastes 6 of her saves for a final Feeblemind or Polymorph ( if weakened ) and Imprisonment.

By the way, Dominate Monster actually wouldn't work at all, since Tiamat is immune to charming. At any rate, she's still dumb from potentially allowing herself to be captured. Parties often do defeat her, after all. Everything else boasted about Tiamat by you or Unoriginal is utterly irrelevant, since now you're just claiming every single party is going to die facing Tiamat anyway, since apparently she can just one-shot everyone and nobody can ever survive.


I can only presume you are talking about your own post here.


You probably think that nobody is going to do the research and call you out, do you? First of all, in Volo's Guide, under "An Ancient Curse", it explicitly states that the Kenku's masters tore the spark of creativity from THEIR SOULS. Guess what Magic Jar does, sunshine? /facepalm.
-- you

Magic jar gives you the game statistics of the kenku.

Mimicry & inability to speak other then mimicry are game statistics of a kenku.

#RocketScienceItIsNot


And your second example is hilariously wrong. Do you think that if a player Magic Jars into a Drow, he can no longer speak Common, if that Drow only knew Elvish and Undercommon? Your game statistics are replaced by the target's, sure, and languages are within the statistics block ( Glad you realize that in the RAW properly at least ), except for one problem - A language is also an acquired statistic, and Magic Jar doesn't prevent you from something like, say, studying history while in a braindead Gnoll's body.
-- you

Here's the problem mate,
Language is a game statistic - as you agree with.
D&D AFAIK doesn't even have something called acquired statistic. Book + page?
Magic Jar tells us what happens with the game statistic, and sure as heck doesn't differentiate between acquired statistic and other game statistics.


So the statistics are replaced, but the language is then immediately added right away since you already know it.
-- you

Liar liar pants on fire. Here's magic jar (http://5e.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magicJar.htm). It does not do what you claim it does. There is no "X added right away since you already know it."


Saying otherwise is like saying Magic Jar makes you lose all your memories upon entering the target.
-- you

Hey, don't forget you are the one who wants to use the RAW Magic Jar, so don't cry to me RAW Magic Jar doesn't make sense. We ALL agree it doesn't, because RAW magic jar allows you to swap souls with an illusion. But hey, when it doesn't suit you, you don't give 2 cents that illusion being humanoid is only some "acquired statistic" opposite to a natural one.

So, hey, bottomline? either stop using RAW magic jar, or stop complaining RAW magic jar doesn't make sense. But you can't have it both ways.


Lastly, so you are not arguing about regaining spells then, only about a general "ability to learn"?
-- you

I was arguing about ability to learn.

When one regains spells is undisputably a game statistics (as it's undisputably essential to know if a spell is at will or 1/short rest or 1/long rest - making it, by the definition you pointed to, a game statistic)

And the question "yeah, but I have an ability that lets me regain spells, so we don't know which overrides which" is frankly, just plain silly. The ability is specifically made for creatures that can cast, and regain, spells. A simulacrum of a wizard and a magic jarred simulacrum of a wizard both have the same 'regain spells ability'. As it's clear that the 'don't regain spells abiliy' overrides the 'regain spells ability' for the first, it also does so for the second.

it's so silly, it's not even a decent thought excersice.

the lack of any wording what happens with a humanoid without a soul - makes it pretty clear it's not intended to be used on an illusionairy human.

Heck, notes how it even talks about dying. Does a dispelled illusion die? Doesn't it simply disappear? Even the description of Simulacrum stays away from that term - as an Simulacrum was never really alive to begin with.


Sigh.... this is quickly becoming annoying. "Acquired Statistic" is a statement in English, not everything needs to be technically spelled out for you. It's acquired in the sense that you are able to learn new languages if you can vocalize them. That's the reason I call it an acquired statistic. One which can be added with your background, of your own choosing, for instance, such as with Sage ( Because you ****ing learned it )

I will explain to you how it works once again, since you don't seem to comprehend it - Your game statistics ARE replaced, if you were a human, then from Common to Elvish and Undercommon, but Common is then instantaneously added back since you already have it memorized. So, first of all, it is possible for a human player for instance to learn a language, just as much as it is possible for him to pick up a rock. RAW does not forbid it and it is within realistic limits. If that doesn't suffice, the PHB and SCAG make it clear that languages can be learned, such as from a background, the description of languages themselves ( Such as Undercommon being learned by merchants who visit the Underdark often ), and even Page 279 of the DMG which states "A monster can master as many languages as you want, although few monsters know more than one or two", making it clear a language is a skill which can be mastered through learning. Finally, learning a new language is also listed in under "Training" in Downtime Activities of the PHB. All 3 of those are the RAW For Retards, for those who aren't already aware that languages can be learned.

So now that this much is evident, I posed you a question - If someone Magic Jars into a Drow, would you rule that he cannot learn, say, Gnomish? If so, you're completely violating RAW as well as common sense. If you will allow it, then there is no difference in learning the language after a year by studying it, or learning it almost instantly because you already have the information in memory.

Finally, to seal the deal about game mechanics, we actually know for a fact that your memory and experiences are retained by your soul. The "Reincarnate" spell description clarifies that when you form a new, racially different body for a soul of someone who has died. Therefore, this will be the last time I'm going to answer - Your languages get replaced with that of the creature ( While it's soul goes to the Magic Jar container if it has one ) , but since your soul retains your own experiences, capabilities as well as all mental ability scores, you simply recall the language immediately upon possessing the creature, therefore effectively replacing it and immediately "learning" it afterwards if you want to look at it that way. There is no problem here.

Regaining spells is undisputably a class feature and not a game statistic, since a human Warlock and human Wizard can have the same size/type/alignment/AC/HP/Speed/Ability Scores, and blah blah, yet a Warlock will always regain spells after a Short Rest and the Wizard after a Long Rest. It's also undisputably a class feature since it says so in the PHB. What you consider "essential" or not from that introduction is irrelevant to the actual rules.

If it was up to you and regaining spell slots was a game statistic, a Wizard with "Arcane Recovery" who Magic Jar'd into an Elven Druid would never be able to use it since his "game statistic" would get replaced with the target's game statistics, and a Druid's game statistics do not allow it to regain spell slots through Arcane Recovery. Yet Magic Jar lets you retain your own class features. Contradiction. Likewise if Game Statistics and Class Feature were not separate, it would also be a contradiction. So it's a good thing that we ****ing know that both the Wizard's "Arcane Recovery" and his "Preparing and Casting Spells" are under CLASS FEATURES in big bold letters in the PHB, don't we?

Also, regardless of it's soul, it's literally made out of a chunk of your body and ice in sufficient quantities to make a duplicate, and the ice melts when it dies. "The duplicate is a creature, partially real and formed from ice or snow". The "Illusory" and Illusion parts probably refer to the fact that it's an "illusion" of being yourself. And at any rate, as I've said, Magic Jar possesses any humanoid, whether or not it has a soul or not is only relevant to the latter part of the spell in which if it does have one, it goes into the Magic Jar. If it doesn't, that does not preclude the first part of the spell from working, RAW, which requires you to target a humanoid. And the Simulacrum is a creature and a humanoid ( If you are one ).

As I've told Unoriginal, some guy that you cast "Magic Jar" on might have it's soul trapped in some Night Hag's Soul Bag. Doesn't matter, your own soul still enters it's body, RAW and RAI.

[Renduaz]

No it's not. It's a pile of snow with an illusion on it to make it looks like an humanoid or beast and do actions with plenty of limitations.

Even the spell notes that it's nothing but an illusory duplicate.

You can't cast True Resurrection on a Simulacrum, yes?


This is an interesting point, but wouldn't it count as a construct? as it " is a creature, partially real and formed from ice or snow"


But a simulacrum of a PC isn't a humanoid; nothing in the "racial traits" section gives a PC the humanoid type!

Type: Humanoid is a statistic. ( MM, Page 6 )
Simulacrum: It appears to be the same as the original, but it has half the creature's hit point maximum and is formed without any equipment. Otherwise, the illusion uses all the statistics of the creature it duplicates.

The MM also clarifies in Page 7 - "Humanoids are the main peoples of the D&D world, both civilized and savage, including humans ", so in case you somehow unable to comprehend the fact that Elves and Dwarves are Humanoids, you have a direct RAW statement designating humans as Humanoids.

But keep trying everyone, you'll succeed one day! ( Not )

[Luppers]

Why are you not weakening Tiamat if you're resting for a few days before going to her temple? Severe damage to the temple, stopping the sacrifice of prisoners, holding a dragon mask and removing the Mask of the Dragon Queen from Severin all really happen when you begin heading to stop the ritual through the caverns already. You take the long rest preparations before that.

Why are Tiamats followers waiting several days/weeks for you to attack to start the ritual? you'd need a VERY lenient DM to allow you to spend several days/weeks just rolling for the portent dice.

[strangebloke]

The simulacrum has the type:

'humanoid'

The simulacrum is a:

'spell'

Therefore both hold person and dispel magic work on the simulacrum. Moreover, it can be effected as though it were a:

'creature'

So it can be healed by healing magic. (Since cure wounds works on creatures who neither have the type 'construct' nor the type 'undead.')

This is all abundantly clear from RAW. Magic Jar allows you to possess humanoids, full stop. The only interesting question left is, can he learn and/or regain spells. I would argue that this is going to require DM arbitration, since by RAW this comes down to what is on the simulacrum's stat block, which is generated by the DM when the simulacrum comes into being.

Well, that and possible ways that you could try and stop people with the 'gate' spell from directly assaulting you. (if they know your true name)

[Luppers]

Type: Humanoid is a statistic. ( MM, Page 6 )
Simulacrum: It appears to be the same as the original, but it has half the creature's hit point maximum and is formed without any equipment. Otherwise, the illusion uses all the statistics of the creature it duplicates.

The MM also clarifies in Page 7 - "Humanoids are the main peoples of the D&D world, both civilized and savage, including humans ", so in case you somehow unable to comprehend the fact that Elves and Dwarves are Humanoids, you have a direct RAW statement designating humans as Humanoids.

But keep trying everyone, you'll succeed one day! ( Not )


You shape an illusory duplicate of one beast or humanoid that is within range for the entire casting time of the spell. The duplicate is a creature, partially real and formed from ice or snow, and it can take actions and otherwise be affected as a normal creature. It appears to be the same as the original, but it has half the creature's hit point maximum and is formed without any equipment. Otherwise, the illusion uses all the statistics of the creature it duplicates.

Bold part is pretty much the definition of a construct, and as such the creature type could be considered to be excluded from the statistics duplicated. So not humanoid -> not applicable for magic jar

[Puh Laden]

Type: Humanoid is a statistic. ( MM, Page 6 )
Simulacrum: It appears to be the same as the original, but it has half the creature's hit point maximum and is formed without any equipment. Otherwise, the illusion uses all the statistics of the creature it duplicates.

The MM also clarifies in Page 7 - "Humanoids are the main peoples of the D&D world, both civilized and savage, including humans ", so in case you somehow unable to comprehend the fact that Elves and Dwarves are Humanoids, you have a direct RAW statement designating humans as Humanoids.

But keep trying everyone, you'll succeed one day! ( Not )

I was joking. I was trying to show how ridiculous it is to use the reasoning that "only the things in a statblock or a list of traits or features matter." Especially since kenkus got brought up. Playing a creative kenku is possible, but not using the default lore. Just like how playing a dragonborn who isn't orange-brown is possible, but not using the default lore.

[Renduaz]

Why are Tiamats followers waiting several days/weeks for you to attack to start the ritual? you'd need a VERY lenient DM to allow you to spend several days/weeks just rolling for the portent dice.

Same reason they're waiting for you to spend the months leading up to the fight and all the time it takes to go forge alliances with all the various potential allies listed in the module, apparently. It already lasts long enough that a few days would hardly make the difference. And if they did, then a 3-4 long rest span window has like a 1% chance of being the deciding factor. If you delayed throughout the entire campaign, it's likely she'll be summoned before you ever reach her or take all the steps needed to ensure stopping her. If you made haste, then again, a few more days has a very low probability of coincidentally being just the right moment in which the cultists finally complete the ritual. Since the entire adventure module, even extremely moreso if starting from "Tyranny of Dragons", takes months to complete.

Most DM's just do it "leniently" because they don't really have much choice. In Critical Role, how come the Chroma Conclave "suddenly" and extremely coincidentally succeeded in freeing Thordak after Vox Machina spent YEARS getting to just the right level to confront them, instead of that happening while they were still level 1? Or why Tiamat and her cultists didn't already take over the world since they had tens of thousands of years to try the exact same ****?

Storytelling leniency.

[Renduaz]

Bold part is pretty much the definition of a construct, and as such the creature type could be considered to be excluded from the statistics duplicated. So not humanoid -> not applicable for magic jar

Yeah, let's assign a completely non-RAW, self-appointed creature type to the Simulacrum just because it sounds similar to Luppers, instead of going by actual RAW which states that the Simulacrum has ALL of your statistics except for half hp and equipment, and if you're a human, your "Type" statistic is Humanoid. How about no? You're free to do it in your campaign as a house rule, but do not dispute what I say when it is perfectly in line with the RAW. And no, the fact that it sounds like a Construct you does not make it's Game Statistic type a construct.

By the way, being a Construct actually gives it immunity to a bunch of different items and abilities if it was the case, which it isn't since it's completely non-RAW and non-RAI.

[strangebloke]

Can we stop taking about Tiamat?

She's off topic in this thread. I get that some of you like to poke Renduaz, but it's a bit... Mean.

Edit: luppers, would you consider the clone to be a construct?

[Luppers]

Same reason they're waiting for you to spend the months leading up to the fight and all the time it takes to go forge alliances with all the various potential allies listed in the module, apparently. It already lasts long enough that a few days would hardly make the difference. And if they did, then a 3-4 long rest span window has like a 1% chance of being the deciding factor. If you delayed throughout the entire campaign, it's likely she'll be summoned before you ever reach her or take all the steps needed to ensure stopping her. If you made haste, then again, a few more days has a very low probability of coincidentally being just the right moment in which the cultists finally complete the ritual. Since the entire adventure module, even extremely moreso if starting from "Tyranny of Dragons", takes months to complete.

Most DM's just do it "leniently" because they don't really have much choice. In Critical Role, how come the Chroma Conclave "suddenly" and extremely coincidentally succeeded in freeing Thordak after Vox Machina spent YEARS getting to just the right level to confront them, instead of that happening while they were still level 1? Or why Tiamat and her cultists didn't already take over the world since they had tens of thousands of years to try the exact same ****?

Storytelling leniency.

Theres a big difference between storytelling leniency and allowing blatant metagaming. Also, for your plan to work you need to roll 6d20 with all the rolls being very low, anything below a 10 is likely not useful, so at best you are looking at around a 1/64 chance of all the dice being low enough to be useful. Considering the story is meant to make it seem like an urgent task, can you produce a valid storytelling reason to delay the attack by several weeks, other than the dice aren't giving you the result you want?

[Luppers]

Can we stop taking about Tiamat?

She's off topic in this thread. I get that some of you like to poke Renduaz, but it's a bit... Mean.

Edit: luppers, would you consider the clone to be a construct?

Technically I'd consider it an object until a soul transfers to it, then it would be a creature of whatever type the original was. It's essentially a corpse until a soul enters it.

[Puh Laden]

Technically I'd consider it an object until a soul transfers to it, then it would be a creature of whatever type the original was. It's essentially a corpse until a soul enters it.

But there are many examples of soulless creatures: animated armor for instance, and arguably most undead.

EDIT: My bad: I misread clone to mean "simulacrum"

[Luppers]

But there are many examples of soulless creatures: animated armor for instance, and arguably most undead.

But the main difference is those all are alive or appear alive through magic, a clone is just a body which has never been alive. It's incapable of doing anything on its own, which is why I would define it as an object.

Imagine if Frankenstein hadn't managed to give his monster life, would the monster be a creature, or an assortment of objects attached to each other?

[Renduaz]

Theres a big difference between storytelling leniency and allowing blatant metagaming. Also, for your plan to work you need to roll 6d20 with all the rolls being very low, anything below a 10 is likely not useful, so at best you are looking at around a 1/64 chance of all the dice being low enough to be useful. Considering the story is meant to make it seem like an urgent task, can you produce a valid storytelling reason to delay the attack by several weeks, other than the dice aren't giving you the result you want?

By the way, anyone who has 2 levels into Divination Wizard can start taking Short Rests instead of long ones when they get a bad roll even a long time prior to the encounter, if they don't stand much to lose for it, such as the Fighter class for example, who loses almost nothing if supplementing Long Rests with Short Rests. Three Div Wiz 2/Fighter 18 and 2 Spellcasters would actually be ideal, they have 6 rolls between them with 100% chance of extremely low and even "1" rolls since they can start taking short rests weeks or more before to preserve a Portent Roll, healing themselves with the party spellcaster's healing spells instead of regaining hit die, while the spellcasters will finish the job, as the 3 fighters of course tank her. One of them can be a Cleric too using Plane ****, since there aren't even any healing spells at level 7 ( Regeneration takes 1 minute and Resurrection is 1 hour ). With a weakened Tiamat it would be even easier. A Monk likewise doesn't have many important features that need to be renewed with a Long Rest ( And has Quivering Palm too ), same goes for the Rogue, so it would actually be very possible to form a party with 100% bad Portent rolls to take down Tiamat, without even wasting time at all.

[Specter]

By the way, anyone who has 2 levels into Divination Wizard can start taking Short Rests instead of long ones when they get a bad roll even a long time prior to the encounter

Portent is long-rest rest, not short.

[Renduaz]

Portent is long-rest rest, not short.

I know, read it again.

[Unoriginal]

At any rate, she's still dumb from potentially allowing herself to be captured. Parties often do defeat her, after all. Everything else boasted about Tiamat by you or Unoriginal is utterly irrelevant, since now you're just claiming every single party is going to die facing Tiamat anyway, since apparently she can just one-shot everyone and nobody can ever survive.


I'm not saying that it is not possible to defeat Tiamat, I'm saying it's ridiculous to claim you can *easily* defeat Tiamat. And also that calling her a "dumb bitch" is not only just as outlandish, but also false.

Even you admit that you need optimal conditions for a bunch of characters with a very precise build and who need to coordinate to have the best Portents dice possible, while glossing over the fact that Tiamat won't just stay here and take the hits.

By the way, Feeblemind still doesn't stop Tiamat. Weaken her, certainly, but not stop her.



Type: Humanoid is a statistic. ( MM, Page 6 )
Simulacrum: It appears to be the same as the original, but it has half the creature's hit point maximum and is formed without any equipment. Otherwise, the illusion uses all the statistics of the creature it duplicates.

The MM also clarifies in Page 7 - "Humanoids are the main peoples of the D&D world, both civilized and savage, including humans ", so in case you somehow unable to comprehend the fact that Elves and Dwarves are Humanoids, you have a direct RAW statement designating humans as Humanoids.

But keep trying everyone, you'll succeed one day! ( Not )

It's still an illusion of an humanoid, made of snow and ice and only mimicking a living being.


Why are Tiamats followers waiting several days/weeks for you to attack to start the ritual? you'd need a VERY lenient DM to allow you to spend several days/weeks just rolling for the portent dice.

Why would Tiamat herself wait for the party, if the ritual is finished, even?

[Luppers]

Why would Tiamat herself wait for the party, if the ritual is finished, even?

Because nothing is quite as delicious as a high level party? :tongue:

[Specter]

I know, read it again.

This hypothetical party of Diviner 2/Whatevers X would be taking only short rests for days?

Talk about argument desperation.

[Lombra]

Type: Humanoid is a statistic. ( MM, Page 6 )
Simulacrum: It appears to be the same as the original, but it has half the creature's hit point maximum and is formed without any equipment. Otherwise, the illusion uses all the statistics of the creature it duplicates.

The MM also clarifies in Page 7 - "Humanoids are the main peoples of the D&D world, both civilized and savage, including humans ", so in case you somehow unable to comprehend the fact that Elves and Dwarves are Humanoids, you have a direct RAW statement designating humans as Humanoids.

But keep trying everyone, you'll succeed one day! ( Not )

Your sarcasm is very offensive and unnecessary, please try to keep a respectful tone, you wouldn't post something on a forum to not expect critiques about it, wouldn't you? It's like the point of sharing.

[strangebloke]

Your sarcasm is very offensive and unnecessary, please try to keep a respectful tone, you wouldn't post something on a forum to not expect critiques about it, wouldn't you? It's like the point of sharing.

He's been taking about as much as he's been dishing out. I think everyone could do with this suggestion.

Also, please drop the Tiamat discussion?

[Renduaz]

I'm not saying that it is not possible to defeat Tiamat, I'm saying it's ridiculous to claim you can *easily* defeat Tiamat. And also that calling her a "dumb bitch" is not only just as outlandish, but also false.

Even you admit that you need optimal conditions for a bunch of characters with a very precise build and who need to coordinate to have the best Portents dice possible, while glossing over the fact that Tiamat won't just stay here and take the hits.

By the way, Feeblemind still doesn't stop Tiamat. Weaken her, certainly, but not stop her.




It's still an illusion of an humanoid, made of snow and ice and only mimicking a living being.



Why would Tiamat herself wait for the party, if the ritual is finished, even?

That's one method, and she is dumb for having no insurance against being trapped, since if someone ( Which includes you and your allies aka your army and any high-level spellcaster allies you have btw ) did manage to exhaust her saves during the fight, she could be Imprisoned or controlled for eternity instead of killed, therefore unable to use Discoporation, and her very deityhood defeated, not just her incursion into the Prime Material. Doesn't even have any teleportation abilities or spellcasting to defend herself from that except for Divine Word.


This hypothetical party of Diviner 2/Whatevers X would be taking only short rests for days?

Talk about argument desperation.

Why? You wanted 100% Portent certainty and yet a fully optimal party ( Say Wizard, Cleric, Fighter, Monk and Rogue ) to confront Tiamat with, you got it. Even if she's not weakened.


Your sarcasm is very offensive and unnecessary, please try to keep a respectful tone, you wouldn't post something on a forum to not expect critiques about it, wouldn't you? It's like the point of sharing.

I do expect critique, but contradicting RAW to disparage is not a critique, it's malicious intent. If someone like Unoriginal starts a reply to this thread with "It doesn't work, spare them that." and replies to another poster with "Spare them that, it doesn't work", despite being wrong that invites some indignation.

[Unoriginal]

So it can be healed by healing magic. (Since cure wounds works on creatures who neither have the type 'construct' nor the type 'undead.')

No it can't


If the simulacrum is damaged, you can repair it in an alchemical laboratory, using rare herbs and minerals worth 100 gp per hit point it regains. The simulacrum lasts until it drops to 0 hit points, at which point it reverts to snow and melts instantly.



Can we stop taking about Tiamat?

She's off topic in this thread. I get that some of you like to poke Renduaz, but it's a bit... Mean.

Edit: luppers, would you consider the clone to be a construct?

Renduaz made a claim about Tiamat in the OP, so she's not off topic.

And I'm not writing in this thread to antagonize Renduaz, I'm writing in this thread because I want to challenge the claims I see as incorrect.

Note that Renduaz has not commented on my "the caster would have to get out of his cell to re-supply in rubbies and diamonds eventually" since I've showed it was true.



Because nothing is quite as delicious as a high level party? :tongue:

I think Tiamat would just leave and go eat a city, if the PCs take too long to come or if they manage to hurt her without actually stopping her.





Most DM's just do it "leniently" because they don't really have much choice. In Critical Role, how come the Chroma Conclave "suddenly" and extremely coincidentally succeeded in freeing Thordak after Vox Machina spent YEARS getting to just the right level to confront them, instead of that happening while they were still level 1? Or why Tiamat and her cultists didn't already take over the world since they had tens of thousands of years to try the exact same ****?

Storytelling leniency.

Do you really think that "my optimal scenario to steamroll Tiamat works because the DM is lenient and let it happen" is a good argument?



Your sarcasm is very offensive and unnecessary, please try to keep a respectful tone, you wouldn't post something on a forum to not expect critiques about it, wouldn't you? It's like the point of sharing.

I've been sarcastic too, I don't think that Renduaz has stepped out of line here.





Also, please drop the Tiamat discussion?

Not wanting to sound like a jerk, but why?

[Renduaz]

No it can't






Renduaz made a claim about Tiamat in the OP, so she's not off topic.

And I'm not writing in this thread to antagonize Renduaz, I'm writing in this thread because I want to challenge the claims I see as incorrect.

Note that Renduaz has not commented on my "the caster would have to get out of his cell to re-supply in rubbies and diamonds eventually" since I've showed it was true.




I think Tiamat would just leave and go eat a city, if the PCs take too long to come or if they manage to hurt her without actually stopping her.




Do you really think that "my optimal scenario to steamroll Tiamat works because the DM is lenient and let it happen" is a good argument?




I've been sarcastic too, I don't think that Renduaz has stepped out of line here.




Not wanting to sound like a jerk, but why?

Well, concerning that claim, first of all the "classical" build did not include permanency when it comes to components in the first place if you keep dying too much, you'll notice the Korred is listed as ( Optional ), while Instant Summons as ( Contentious ), but under the interpretation that when your soul inhabits a creature via Magic Jar, you count as.... well, you, then you can use Instant Summons to bring back objects weighing 10 pounds at a time at the cost of 2,000gp for each delivery, which is more than sufficient to bring back tens or hundreds of thousands gold worth of gems socketed in a necklace for instance. Someone else also mentioned correctly, and I expanded upon, that even more easily, you can just have you Simulacrums cast Wish for any object 25,000gp in value with no more than 300 feet dimension.

Since your Simulacrum would be using the Wish ( Inside the mirror cell, without magic jar ), it would take the 33 percent chance itself, which doesn't matter since you'll dispel it right afterwards and make a new Simulacrum to cast Wish. Each casting is only 1,500 gp and you can get an object of 25,000gp, that object can be a bracelet, necklace, large ring or even armor piece or weapon decorated with any number of gems you want up to 25,000gp in value, and taken out for the spells you want.

[qube]

You're free to do it in your campaign as a house rule, but do not dispute what I say when it is perfectly in line with the RAW.Allow us to keep you on that.



And according to RAW, everything essential to playing a creature is a game statistic.

And it's essential to know when you refresh your spells - so that would make it a game statistic by RAW's definition
(I can't even imagine how True Polymorph would work for spellcasting monster if you don't inherit it's refresh spells game mechanic, and why it doesn't mention how to handle this if it's not considered a game statistic)

And magic jar gives you all the game statistics of the creature. Again, RAW.

Ergo, when you magic jar, Simulacrum: no refresshing spells.


Same for gating into the cell (dispite the mirror being protected)


It's still an illusion of an humanoid, made of snow and ice and only mimicking a living being.very true, but according to RAW (the kind that says 'screw common sense' ) - that distinction does not exist.

there's no difference between a human and an illusion that became a human.
The same raw that makes no difference between 'fire resistance' and 'mimicry'.


Because nothing is quite as delicious as a high level party? :tongue:
Be ware of dragons, for you taste good with ketchup.

[strangebloke]

Renduaz made a claim about Tiamat in the OP, so she's not off topic.

Not wanting to sound like a jerk, but why?

Because it's off-topic. He mentioned her in the OP. That's it. If I mention a demilich in an OP about player issues at a table, does that mean people get to endlessly debate if demilichs can be familiars?


It's still an illusion of an humanoid, made of snow and ice and only mimicking a living being.

Yes. But that's fluff text. It is a spell, but as far as all interactions with it are concerned, it is a spell and a humanoid creature.


No it can't
To which I reply: 'Yeah-huh'

Oh, it isn't RAI, I'll give you that. But cure wounds works on creatures who aren't undead or constructs. Simulacrum is a spell, but it can be treated as a creature for the purposes of interacting with it. If you rule anything else the simulacrum becomes immune to a lot targeted spells.

The ability to be repaired does not preclude the ability to be healed.

[Unoriginal]

Yes. But that's fluff text.


It's no more fluff than the bit where it's said the Simulacrum has half the HPs of the creature it imitates.


To which I reply: 'Yeah-huh'

Oh, it isn't RAI, I'll give you that. But cure wounds works on creatures who aren't undead or constructs. Simulacrum is a spell, but it can be treated as a creature for the purposes of interacting with it. If you rule anything else the simulacrum becomes immune to a lot targeted spells.

The ability to be repaired does not preclude the ability to be healed.

At this point I think only a Sage's Advice is going to cut it.

[Luppers]

To which I reply: 'Yeah-huh'

Oh, it isn't RAI, I'll give you that. But cure wounds works on creatures who aren't undead or constructs. Simulacrum is a spell, but it can be treated as a creature for the purposes of interacting with it. If you rule anything else the simulacrum becomes immune to a lot targeted spells.

The ability to be repaired does not preclude the ability to be healed.

Jeremy Crawford disagrees (twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/801539885861437440)

[Lombra]

I do expect critique, but contradicting RAW to disparage is not a critique, it's malicious intent. If someone like Unoriginal starts a reply to this thread with "It doesn't work, spare them that." and replies to another poster with "Spare them that, it doesn't work", despite being wrong that invites some indignation.

What I meant is that you sounded rude, without the intent to offend you, just want to share how it felt to me. I apprecielate the effort that you put in all those threads that you make where you expose weak parts of the RAW.

On topic-
Your system relies on the fact that either a simulacrum has a soul or that magic jar doesn't require the target to have a soul.
Can you magic jar in a corpse, for instance?

[Renduaz]

Allow us to keep you on that.



And according to RAW, everything essential to playing a creature is a game statistic.

And it's essential to know when you refresh your spells - so that would make it a game statistic by RAW's definition
(I can't even imagine how True Polymorph would work for spellcasting monster if you don't inherit it's refresh spells game mechanic, and why it doesn't mention how to handle this if it's not considered a game statistic)

And magic jar gives you all the game statistics of the creature. Again, RAW.

Ergo, when you magic jar, Simulacrum: no refresshing spells.


Same for gating into the cell (dispite the mirror being protected)

very true, but according to RAW (the kind that says 'screw common sense' ) - that distinction does not exist.

there's no difference between a human and an illusion that became a human.
The same raw that makes no difference between 'fire resistance' and 'mimicry'.


Be ware of dragons, for you taste good with ketchup.

No, according to RAW, a monster's statistics, sometimes referred to as it's stat block, "Provide THE essential information that you need to run the monster", which is then listed immediately afterwards by the MM. Your speculations are useless when the MM already gave the stat block and therefore defined what "essential information" is as far as the RAW is concerned. You will notice that while stat blocks with Innate Spellcasting give you the amount of time a creature would need to regain a spell, since you wouldn't know, creatures who have "Spellcasting", I.E levels in a spellcaster's class features, DO NOT state when or how they can regain spell slots, since this information is already in "Class Features" of the PHB and other books.

Therefore your argument gets BTFO by RAW since this information is not present in creature stat blocks who have class levels, so either it is not essential information and thus not a game statistic, or your reading comprehension sucks incredibly, and the MM already listed what game statistics are. Choose one either way.

You can define "illusion" however you want to, it's not my fault that Simulacrum explicitly states that the Simulacrum is a creature ( A Project Image or Invoke Duplicity illusions on the other hand are not creatures ) and that it has all of your own statistics except for half hp and no equipment.

[Specter]

Why? You wanted 100% Portent certainty and yet a fully optimal party ( Say Wizard, Cleric, Fighter, Monk and Rogue ) to confront Tiamat with, you got it. Even if she's not weakened.

I didn't want anything, I'm not even a part of this discussion. I just saw something which no DM would ever allow without throwing in exhaustion and made a comment on how absurd it is. Even in your example, you have a Cleric which has only long rest resources except for Channel Divinity.

Point being, you're bending the reality of the game to something absurd to prove a statement. Give up.

[Renduaz]

What I meant is that you sounded rude, without the intent to offend you, just want to share how it felt to me. I apprecielate the effort that you put in all those threads that you make where you expose weak parts of the RAW.

On topic-
Your system relies on the fact that either a simulacrum has a soul or that magic jar doesn't require the target to have a soul.
Can you magic jar in a corpse, for instance?

Interestingly RAW and RAI would suggest it is possible. Looking at True Resurrection - "You touch a creature that has been dead for no longer than 200 years and that died for any reason except old age. If the creature's soul is free and willing, the creature is restored to life with all its hit points.", I.E a corpse or even remains is still designated as a "creature", even after death and following the soul's departure. If the creature is humanoid then Magic Jar is able to target the corpse. That's RAW.

It appears to work RAI too because the metamagic of Magic Jar is that you project your soul into a different body - "The target must make a Charisma saving throw. On a failure, your soul moves into the target's body". Which would in fact imply... the target's soul would get trapped in the jar from wherever it currently resides. However upon entering the body, you will effectively die instantly since the target's host body is dead, which will activate the spell condition of - "If the host body dies while you're in it, the creature dies, and you must make a Charisma saving throw against your own spellcasting DC. On a success, you return to the container if it is within 100 feet of you. Otherwise, you die.", but I am unsure what would happen to the creature's soul inside the container if it was indeed shipped in there.

But then again, classic Magic Jar itself doesn't say what happens to a creature's soul if the host body dies and you return to the container already occupied by that creature's soul, only that the creature "dies", and that's it.

Keep in mind, once again, Magic Jar refers to the "Host body". So yes, it actually seems completely viable both RAW and RAI to possess a dead creature's body with Magic Jar. What will happen is that the spell will effectively cancel itself as you either instantly return to the container or die yourself.

Also, more RAW reinforcement as to why possessing a Simulacrum would work is the fact that "Magic Jar" states that "On a failure, your soul moves into the target's body, and the target's soul becomes trapped in the container" as a matter of fact, not as a requirement, it's simply something which happens, and it happens after, or at the same time, during which your soul moves into the target's body. If the target does not have a soul then the most likely outcome is that this part in the chain of events will simply not occur. Because your soul has ALREADY moved into the target's body regardless, if no soul goes into the Magic Jar container, that's a bygone event. It's not just RAW, it's completely logical.


I didn't want anything, I'm not even a part of this discussion. I just saw something which no DM would ever allow without throwing in exhaustion and made a comment on how absurd it is. Even in your example, you have a Cleric which has only long rest resources except for Channel Divinity.

Point being, you're bending the reality of the game to something absurd to prove a statement. Give up.

The Cleric and other spellcaster will be taking Long Rests. Only the 3 Fighters/Monks/Rogues with 2 levels of Divination Wizard are going to take short rests only. With all the healing spells at it's disposal during high levels, he would be able to heal 3 players while still having enough for an encounter without a problem, not to mention they'd probably only need healing after encounters anyway. At the very worst, he would need an extra long rest every once in a while for extremely major, thousands of points healing worth. Did I mention the vast majority of Planar Bound Fey or Celestials could likely heal the party too? Yes.

[Lombra]

Interestingly RAW and RAI would suggest it is possible. Looking at True Resurrection - "You touch a creature that has been dead for no longer than 200 years and that died for any reason except old age. If the creature's soul is free and willing, the creature is restored to life with all its hit points.", I.E a corpse or even remains is still designated as a "creature", even after death and following the soul's departure. If the creature is humanoid then Magic Jar is able to target the corpse. That's RAW.

It appears to work RAI too because the metamagic of Magic Jar is that you project your soul into a different body - "The target must make a Charisma saving throw. On a failure, your soul moves into the target's body". Which would in fact imply... the target's soul would get trapped in the jar from wherever it currently resides. However upon entering the body, you will effectively die instantly since the target's host body is dead, which will activate the spell condition of - "If the host body dies while you're in it, the creature dies, and you must make a Charisma saving throw against your own spellcasting DC. On a success, you return to the container if it is within 100 feet of you. Otherwise, you die.", but I am unsure what would happen to the creature's soul inside the container if it was indeed shipped in there.

But then again, classic Magic Jar itself doesn't say what happens to a creature's soul if the host body dies and you return to the container already occupied by that creature's soul, only that the creature "dies", and that's it.

Keep in mind, once again, Magic Jar refers to the "Host body". So yes, it actually seems completely viable both RAW and RAI to possess a dead creature's body with Magic Jar. What will happen is that the spell will effectively cancel itself as you either instantly return to the container or die yourself.

Also, more RAW reinforcement as to why possessing a Simulacrum would work is the fact that "Magic Jar" states that "On a failure, your soul moves into the target's body, and the target's soul becomes trapped in the container" as a matter of fact, not as a requirement, it's simply something which happens, and it happens after, or at the same time, during which your soul moves into the target's body. If the target does not have a soul then the most likely outcome is that this part in the chain of events will simply not occur. Because your soul has ALREADY moved into the target's body regardless, if no soul goes into the Magic Jar container, that's a bygone event. It's not just RAW, it's completely logical.



The Cleric and other spellcaster will be taking Long Rests. Only the 3 Fighters/Monks/Rogues with 2 levels of Divination Wizard are going to take short rests only.

Sounds legal enaugh to me, one cool thing to do would be to contingency a kind of resurrection that triggers under those circumstances, so that you could possess a dead body and retrieve the soul of the dead in the magic jar. May be useful in some cases...

[Puh Laden]

Interestingly RAW and RAI would suggest it is possible. Looking at True Resurrection - "You touch a creature that has been dead for no longer than 200 years and that died for any reason except old age. If the creature's soul is free and willing, the creature is restored to life with all its hit points.", I.E a corpse or even remains is still designated as a "creature", even after death and following the soul's departure. If the creature is humanoid then Magic Jar is able to target the corpse. That's RAW.

It appears to work RAI too because the metamagic of Magic Jar is that you project your soul into a different body - "The target must make a Charisma saving throw. On a failure, your soul moves into the target's body". Which would in fact imply... the target's soul would get trapped in the jar from wherever it currently resides. However upon entering the body, you will effectively die instantly since the target's host body is dead, which will activate the spell condition of - "If the host body dies while you're in it, the creature dies, and you must make a Charisma saving throw against your own spellcasting DC. On a success, you return to the container if it is within 100 feet of you. Otherwise, you die.", but I am unsure what would happen to the creature's soul inside the container if it was indeed shipped in there.

But then again, classic Magic Jar itself doesn't say what happens to a creature's soul if the host body dies and you return to the container already occupied by that creature's soul, only that the creature "dies", and that's it.

Keep in mind, once again, Magic Jar refers to the "Host body". So yes, it actually seems completely viable both RAW and RAI to possess a dead creature's body with Magic Jar. What will happen is that the spell will effectively cancel itself as you either instantly return to the container or die yourself.

Also, more RAW reinforcement as to why possessing a Simulacrum would work is the fact that "Magic Jar" states that "On a failure, your soul moves into the target's body, and the target's soul becomes trapped in the container" as a matter of fact, not as a requirement, it's simply something which happens, and it happens after, or at the same time, during which your soul moves into the target's body. If the target does not have a soul then the most likely outcome is that this part in the chain of events will simply not occur. Because your soul has ALREADY moved into the target's body regardless, if no soul goes into the Magic Jar container, that's a bygone event. It's not just RAW, it's completely logical.


I think you're using RAI here as "rules as implications" there is no way that possessing a dead creature's body and yanking a soul from an after-life to the magic jar is intended (because the magic jar does not specify that the soul must be free.) And again, I wouldn't say that because a spell refers to touching a dead creature means that a corpse always counts as a creature, rather that's an inference. No where is there a rule that says "a dead body is a creature" all we have is an inference because a spell refers to one's ability to touch a dead creature.

[Luppers]

Back on topic, then assuming it all works as described (go with me here, even if you disagree) at least one major weakness exists, the simulacrum. If the simulacrum can be found(which is relatively easy for a high level caster) and then dominated, the pseudo-immortal (definitely not god) is in trouble. Here are 3 methods to kill/trap the immortal:
1: Imprisonment - you don't actually need to dominate for this, just incapacitate for 1 hour
2: Ring of mind shielding - once dominated (using an 8th level slot to provide enough time) have the simulacrum attune to the ring, and kill it. The casters soul is now free to choose, go to the afterlife or remain inside the ring.
3: Gate scroll - Dominate simulacrum, have it use the gate scroll to open a gate to the mirror plane, incapacitate the simulacrum and kill the original and clones at your leisure.

There are probably more but that doesn't matter, the claim to becoming immortal and invincible has been debunked. You do get your own avatar and realm though, until someone uses one of the methods above.

[Renduaz]

I think you're using RAI here as "rules as implications" there is no way that possessing a dead creature's body and yanking a soul from an after-life to the magic jar is intended (because the magic jar does not specify that the soul must be free.) And again, I wouldn't say that because a spell refers to touching a dead creature means that a corpse always counts as a creature, rather that's an inference. No where is there a rule that says "a dead body is a creature" all we have is an inference because a spell refers to one's ability to touch a dead creature.

Inference acts as RAW. When an official Spell description refers to a corpse as a "creature", then we know it counts as a creature, it's just a dead creature. You still potentially might not be able to yank just anybody's soul into the jar though since the deities are known to choose which petitioner souls enter their realms and their power over their domains is unstatted, as well as the powers of deities in charge of the afterlife and handling petitioner assignment such as Kelemvor or example in the Forgotten Realm. A DM could decide that a deity has the power to prevent magical attempts to wrench a petitioner's soul away from their domain.


Back on topic, then assuming it all works as described (go with me here, even if you disagree) at least one major weakness exists, the simulacrum. If the simulacrum can be found(which is relatively easy for a high level caster) and then dominated, the pseudo-immortal (definitely not god) is in trouble. Here are 3 methods to kill/trap the immortal:
1: Imprisonment - you don't actually need to dominate for this, just incapacitate for 1 hour
2: Ring of mind shielding - once dominated (using an 8th level slot to provide enough time) have the simulacrum attune to the ring, and kill it. The casters soul is now free to choose, go to the afterlife or remain inside the ring.
3: Gate scroll - Dominate simulacrum, have it use the gate scroll to open a gate to the mirror plane, incapacitate the simulacrum and kill the original and clones at your leisure.

There are probably more but that doesn't matter, the claim to becoming immortal and invincible has been debunked. You do get your own avatar and realm though, until someone uses one of the methods above.

That's a worth discussion, hence why I proposed the "failsafe mechanism" of Contingency which shatters the jar back in the mirror cell/dispels the Simulacrum under the circumstance of any unwanted event such as these ever occurring. Also a Mind Blank on your Simulacrum ( 24 hours duration, so can be done every long rest, even taking two long rests to still get an 8th level slot ) would work perfectly.

So I'm not sure about the "debunked" part here.... when even a simple Mind Blank should suffice. And guess what happens if someone casts Dispel Magic to remove it or Antimagic Field? That's right, the Simulacrum goes PUFF too.

So the cast is still immortal and invincible. We're left only with the weakness to Dispel Magic and Antimagic Field. Counterspells may provide a partial relief if you aren't facing a serious barrage of those abilities, otherwise, you could actually multiclass as a Trickery Cleic 2/Wizard 18 to make your Simulacrum employ my Forcecage Trick (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?528162-The-Invincible-Caster-(-Invoke-Duplicity-Etherealness-Forcecage-Other-)) ( Universally agreed to work ) to gain protection against Dispel Magic in most fights, leaving Antimagic Field ( High level and very rare in monsters and even spellcasters ) as your only true vulnerability, and also Beholders.

You see, statements like yours declaring what I said "debunked" so quickly is what I usually consider an argument in bad faith, honestly.

[Luppers]

That's a worth discussion, hence why I proposed the "failsafe mechanism" of Contingency which shatters the jar back in the mirror cell/dispels the Simulacrum under the circumstance of any unwanted event such as these ever occurring. Also a Mind Blank on your Simulacrum ( 24 hours duration, so can be done every long rest, even taking two long rests to still get an 8th level slot ) would work perfectly.

So I'm not sure about the "debunked" part here.... when even a simple Mind Blank should suffice. And guess what happens if someone casts Dispel Magic to remove it or Antimagic Field? That's right, the Simulacrum goes PUFF too.

So the cast is still immortal and invincible. We're left only with the weakness to Dispel Magic and Antimagic Field. Counterspells may provide a partial relief if you aren't facing a serious barrage of those abilities, otherwise, you could actually multiclass as a Trickery Cleic 2/Wizard 18 to make your Simulacrum employ my Forcecage Trick (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?528162-The-Invincible-Caster-(-Invoke-Duplicity-Etherealness-Forcecage-Other-)) ( Universally agreed to work ) to gain protection against Dispel Magic in most fights, leaving Antimagic Field ( High level and very rare in monsters and even spellcasters ) as your only true vulnerability, and also Beholders.

Assuming you used 7th level slot for simulacrum, and 8th level to plane shift the simulacrum back to the prime material, the simulacrum can cast mind blank once, using a 9th level slot and leaving the simulacrum with only 6th level or below spell slots. Adding an extra step of subduing the simulacrum for 24 hours counters mind blank. As to the contingency, if you set it to the simulacrum becoming incapacitated the simulacrum is even weaker than before, if you set it to the simulacrum being charmed it can still be sealed. And finally Contingency can not shatter the jar because it only effects you by RAW and even with dispel, if you fail the check (since you lack a 7th level or above slot to automatically succeed) the dispel won't work, if they have a divination wizard, or someone with luck, your charmed and the previous post works.

[Unoriginal]

Can you cast True Resurrection at a Simulacrum and bring it back to life?

[Puh Laden]

Okay, let's explore the potential breakpoints of Contingency.

1. It targets "you," and the wording of magic jar implies that "you" are not "your body," otherwise you would always be within 100 feet of your body. It also seems clear that "you" are not in the magic jar when you are posessing a creature. Can you clear this part up?

2. Contingency requires a specific circumstance. What is the wording of the circumstance you use that covers any situation since only one Contingency can apply at a time?

[Renduaz]

Assuming you used 7th level slot for simulacrum, and 8th level to plane shift the simulacrum back to the prime material, the simulacrum can cast mind blank once, using a 9th level slot and leaving the simulacrum with only 6th level or below spell slots. Adding an extra step of subduing the simulacrum for 24 hours counters mind blank. As to the contingency, if you set it to the simulacrum becoming incapacitated the simulacrum is even weaker than before, if you set it to the simulacrum being charmed it can still be sealed. And finally Contingency can not shatter the jar because it only effects you by RAW and even with dispel, if you fail the check (since you lack a 7th level or above slot to automatically succeed) the dispel won't work, if they have a divination wizard, or someone with luck, your charmed and the previous post works.

Contingency can be set to any circumstance you describe. I could set it to, for instance - "When I can no longer take all actions of my own free will" or anything else for that matter. Secondly, what do you mean by "you"? If it's my body back in the mirror cell, that's where the Magic Jar container is, if it's my soul AKA me in the Simulacrum, I suppose that you could specifically take a Divination Wizard for Portent in order to replace you own saving throw with something bad. Since it can only be replaced once per turn, they'd have to use their own Portent first, which will lead to a Portent contest, since both he and me are going to use Portent before the saving throw roll for the Contingency will be made, which I'm not sure how it would work.

Lastly, as I've said, you can summon a familiar in the mirror cell, place your jar container on some high surface ledge, and order your familiar to topple it if, for instance, more than 8 hours have passed without receiving a Sending spell from me with a specific message. Since with Mind Blank, they'd have to imprison me for 24 hours before they can control me, I won't ever deliver the sending, and the familiar will destroy the Jar.

[Renduaz]

Can you cast True Resurrection at a Simulacrum and bring it back to life?

Unknown since True Resurrection actually posits having a soul as a requirement, since "IF the soul is free and willing, the creature is restored to life". Unlike Magic Jar which states your soul enters the target's body and then that the target's soul enters the magic jar, as a matter of fact event which transpires either afterwards or at the same time. Would have to be decided by DM ruling which would probably be a no.

[strangebloke]

Allow us to keep you on that.



And according to RAW, everything essential to playing a creature is a game statistic.

And it's essential to know when you refresh your spells - so that would make it a game statistic by RAW's definition
(I can't even imagine how True Polymorph would work for spellcasting monster if you don't inherit it's refresh spells game mechanic, and why it doesn't mention how to handle this if it's not considered a game statistic)

And magic jar gives you all the game statistics of the creature. Again, RAW.

Ergo, when you magic jar, Simulacrum: no refresshing spells.


Eh, it would depend on how you write up the simulacrum's stat block.

We're a ways past RAI at this point, and RAW only tells us 'look at the creature's stat block...' which we don't have.

There are two ways that the simulacrum's stat block could be handled:
1:The simulacrum is a humanoid creature with the racial features of 'can not regain spells, ever,' and 'cannot learn, ever' line item 'abilities.' The creature wouldn't neccesarily have innate spellcasting, but any class levels it has would be irrelevant once you magic jarred into it. This is a very 3.5 way to do it.

2:The simulacrum is a humanoid creature with innate spellcasting as an item on the stat block. These spells, instead of being 'x/day,' as with most creatures, are instead just 'x.' This wouldn't, then, change what spells you have available or how quickly you regain spells from your class levels.

Now, I'd argue that #2 is more consistent with how monster stat blocks are written up in 5e. As a rule, non-PCs in RAW 5e do not have class levels, even if they get abilities that are essentially class features. But it's frankly up to the GM.

[Puh Laden]

Contingency can be set to any circumstance you describe. I could set it to, for instance - "When I can no longer take all actions of my own free will" or anything else for that matter. Secondly, what do you mean by "you"? If it's my body back in the mirror cell, that's where the Magic Jar container is, if it's my soul AKA me in the Simulacrum, I suppose that you could specifically take a Divination Wizard for Portent in order to replace you own saving throw with something bad. Since it can only be replaced once per turn, they'd have to use their own Portent first, which will lead to a Portent contest, since both he and me are going to use Portent before the saving throw roll for the Contingency will be made, which I'm not sure how it would work.

Lastly, as I've said, you can summon a familiar in the mirror cell, place your jar container on some high surface ledge, and order your familiar to topple it if, for instance, more than 1 hour has passed without receiving a Sending spell from me with a specific message. Since with Mind Blank, they'd have to imprison me before the can control me, I won't send the sending, and the familiar will destroy the Jar.

Thanks, I'd forgotten about the familiar device. So the jar gets destroyed, you die, your soul goes to your clone. Okay. Got it. Contingency is "dispel magic" then?

[Renduaz]

Thanks, I'd forgotten about the familiar device. So the jar gets destroyed, you die, your soul goes to your clone. Okay. Got it. Contingency is "dispel magic" then?

Well the familiar method works regardless of contingency, by instructing your familiar to knock over the jar back at the mirror cell if it does not receive a "Sending" spell from you in a set period of time, and Mind Blanking yourself for 24 hours as long as you are in the Simulacrum. Actually it would seem like the best Contingency, now that I've had time to review the spell list, even without having Portent yourself, would be Otiluke's Resilient Sphere which has 1 action and can target you. From the description:

>Only an unwilling creature needs to make a saving throw

>Nothing - not physical objects, energy, or other spell effects - can pass through the barrier, in or out, though a creature in the sphere can breathe there. The sphere is immune to all damage, and a creature or object inside can't be damaged by attacks or effects originating from outside, nor can a creature inside the sphere damage anything outside it.

>The sphere is weightless and just large enough to contain the creature or object inside. ( Meaning nobody is able to teleport inside )

This gives the Simulacrum 1 minute to cast Plane Shift on itself inside the Sphere and get out.

[Renduaz]

By the way, despite being completely irrelevant to Magic Jar's ability to work, just for the sake of discussion - If going strictly with pure RAW, A Simulacrum would have a soul.

-"You shape an illusory duplicate of one beast or humanoid that is within range for the entire casting time of the spell. The duplicate is a creature."

-"When a creature dies, it's soul departs it's body" ( DMG, Page 24. )

The RAW makes no distinction as to what type or kind of creature ( By the way Golems and Scarecrows are actually imbued with evil spirits anyway ), so by default, a creature has a soul that can depart it's body. If you argue that for a creature without a soul, that part of the RAW simply won't occur when it dies, then you are even further conceding my own statement that if a creature does not have a soul, the part in the spell where it's soul enters the jar simply won't occur. All the roads lead back to Rome. Also, further idle discussion - Do Modrons have souls? Constructs, have a mind, albeit Axiomatic, and created by Primus, the God of Mechanus, much like the Elves were once created themselves by Corellon Larethian. How do we know what imbibes souls into things in the multiverse, what "having a soul" implies, and which types of creatures get it? An Ooze has less agency than a Modron, does an Ooze have a soul?

[strangebloke]

Seems like a clear case where raw makes no sense.

[Renduaz]

Seems like a clear case where raw makes no sense.

Well, nothing says if the Simulacrum does or doesn't have a soul in order to decide if it makes sense, and if it didn't, then we know it simply won't have a soul to depart it's body just like it won't have a soul to enter the magic jar container, while the player does have a soul to enter it's body anyway.

[No brains]

The biggest problem that I have with this strategy is that it would draw the attention of Michael Jackson, who would constantly plead for the character to become Lawful Good.

I'm looking at the god in the mirror!
I'm asking him to change his ways!
Right now the message couldn't be any clearer!
If you want to make the world a better place-
Take a look at yourself and make a change!

I enjoy your crazy strategies. Keep reaching for the stars. :smallsmile:

[sir_argo]

Not really on topic, but if the creator of a Simulacrum dies, what happens to the Simulacrum? Nothing in the spell says it is destroyed.

[qube]

Now, I'd argue that #2 is more consistent with how monster stat blocks are written up in 5e. As a rule, non-PCs in RAW 5e do not have class levels, even if they get abilities that are essentially class features. But it's frankly up to the GM.Actually, they do. the MM specifically differentiate between innate spellcasting, and spellcasting (the thing that, for instance, the archmage "monster" has)



"When a creature dies, it's soul departs it's body" ( DMG, Page 24. )

If going strictly with pure RAW,
@Renduaz ... that's a huge snag in your problem: A Simulacrum doesn't die - It turns into melting snow when reduced to zero hit points -- which, going strictly with pure RAW, is not the same as dying.

You will in fact never find in RAW that illusions die, because they can't: they're not alive to die.

[Beelzebubba]

Oh, look, it's another "Renduaz has a fit when people oppose his ill-thought ideas" thread...

He strikes me as a lawyer that would spend his entire career - a short one indeed - under threat of disbarment.

Or an incredibly successful politician.

[Renduaz]

Actually, they do. the MM specifically differentiate between innate spellcasting, and spellcasting (the thing that, for instance, the archmage "monster" has)



@Renduaz ... that's a huge snag in your problem: A Simulacrum doesn't die - It turns into melting snow when reduced to zero hit points -- which, going strictly with pure RAW, is not the same as dying.

You will in fact never find in RAW that illusions die, because they can't: they're not alive to die.

Hm, I suppose that much is correct. Although as I said, it would not need to have a soul regardless for Magic Jar to work. As much as that part doesn't occur for a Lich who bound his soul to a phylactery, the soul's transition just never occurs.

[JackOfAllBuilds]

Animated Armor is a creature too, even human shaped. But it is a soulless construct. Being a creature does not equal being a humanoid. The Simulacrum is clearly a CONSTRUCT creature of ice and snow, disguised by illusions to seem and act like you, but is not a living humanoid.

You can't magic jar Mislead or a golem, you couldn't magic jar Simulacrum.

[Renduaz]

Animated Armor is a creature too, even human shaped.

And?


But it is a soulless construct.

RAW source on it being "soulless" as a game mechanic? Even if it were, what about it?


Being a creature does not equal being a humanoid.

Correct. And?


The Simulacrum is clearly a CONSTRUCT creature of ice and snow, disguised by illusions to seem and act like you, but is not a living humanoid.

"Clearly" a Construct, do you have an actual source for that, Jack? Or do your feelings dictate the RAW now? No, I'm afraid what the RAW actually says is that the Simulacrum ( who can only target beasts and humanoids ) is a duplicate creature which has all of the Statistics of the creature it is based on ( Except for half HP and no equipment ), and Type:Humanoid is a game statistic. It's honestly pretty exhausting to have to respond to posts like these by someone who waltz in with zero understanding of game mechanics and makes declarations based on his own whims.

Being a Construct would actually even introduce a whole range of immunities and traits to it which it is not supposed to have RAI, hence why it isn't RAW to begin with, and by actual RAW it's either a Humanoid or Beast depending on which creature it's modeled after, since all statistics remain the same. Please don't insult everyone's intelligence.


You can't magic jar Mislead or a golem, you couldn't magic jar Simulacrum.

You can't do so because a Golem actually has the Construct type, you know, as an actual creature statistic, not just because of what you want it to be. By the way though, Golems are actually created by imbuing the spirits of creatures such as elementals into them.

[JackOfAllBuilds]

Okay, obviously you just want this to work regardless of any clear holes in your plan, so entirely pointless to talk to you.

To everyone else. It is an illusion of ice and snow. So it is not a humanoid. Magic jar only targets humanoids. No monstrosities, no beasts, no constructs.

[Renduaz]

Okay, obviously you just want this to work regardless of any clear holes in your plan, so entirely pointless to talk to you.

To everyone else. It is an illusion of ice and snow. So it is not a humanoid. Magic jar only targets humanoids. No monstrosities, no beasts, no constructs.

Clearly your ability to read is such that I shouldn't have expected to you to be able to read my reply, either. The Simulacrum uses all of the statistics of the creature it duplicates, and Type is a Statistic according to the very first chapter of the Monster Manual. It's not a Construct just because of your feelings, we have the D&D Core Books, terminology and the spell description to inform us exactly what Creature Type it is. All of my replies on the matter will clearly be futile though, and I'm sure everyone else can read the rules and spell descriptions perfectly well, which you seemingly cannot, so we'll leave it at that.

[Chugger]

Renduaz - very inventive - I see no point in nitpicking here - I'm entertained and challenged by this thread! THANKS!

[qube]

A Simulacrum doesn't die - It turns into melting snow when reduced to zero hit points -- which, going strictly with pure RAW, is not the same as dying.

Hm, I suppose that much is correct. Although as I said, it would not need to have a soul regardless for Magic Jar to work.oh, but you fail to see the implication ...


4.How the reincarnation works, from Magic Jar - "If the host body dies while you're in it, the creature dies, and you must make a Charisma saving throw against your own spellcasting DC. On a success, you return to the container if it is within 100 feet of you. Otherwise, you die.", in our case it is otherwise, since our container is still in the mirror's space if our Simulacrum host dies, therefore we die, and from Clone - "At any time after the clone matures, if the original creature dies, its soul transfers to the clone, provided that the soul is free and willing to return.", so there is no problem here.

Read the bolded part, and now read the first quote again. The problem ain't having a soul or not - the problem is that a Simulacrum doesn't die at zero hp but turns into water.

So, your DMG quote "When a creature dies, it's soul departs it's body" turns irrelevant, as it doesn't say "When a creature turns into water, it's soul departs it's body"


Ergo, You don't return to your magic jar: you turn into a soul inhabiting a patch of water when you kick the bucket.

[Unoriginal]

If you use magic to transform a stone into a dwarf, then use Magic Jar on the dwarf, what happens when the dwarf turns back into a stone?


Also, what happens if you have Magic Jar'd yourself into someone, and this person's body get petrified by a monster? They don't "die", so logically they can't escape.

[qube]

Also, what happens if you have Magic Jar'd yourself into someone, and this person's body get petrified by a monster? They don't "die", so logically they can't escape. indd - it's basically a simelar thing to what imprissonment does.

[Renduaz]

oh, but you fail to see the implication ...


4.How the reincarnation works, from Magic Jar - "If the host body dies while you're in it, the creature dies, and you must make a Charisma saving throw against your own spellcasting DC. On a success, you return to the container if it is within 100 feet of you. Otherwise, you die.", in our case it is otherwise, since our container is still in the mirror's space if our Simulacrum host dies, therefore we die, and from Clone - "At any time after the clone matures, if the original creature dies, its soul transfers to the clone, provided that the soul is free and willing to return.", so there is no problem here.

Read the bolded part, and now read the first quote again. The problem ain't having a soul or not - the problem is that a Simulacrum doesn't die at zero hp but turns into water.

So, your DMG quote "When a creature dies, it's soul departs it's body" turns irrelevant, as it doesn't say "When a creature turns into water, it's soul departs it's body"

Ergo, You don't return to your magic jar: you turn into a soul inhabiting a patch of water when you kick the bucket.


A number of things. From the 5E SRD - "When you drop to 0 hit points, you either die outright or fall unconscious, as explained in the following sections.", And from the same section in "Monsters and Death" - "Most GMs have a monster die the instant it drops to 0 hit points, rather than having it fall unconscious and make death saving throws.", "Mighty villains and special nonplayer characters are common exceptions; the GM might have them fall unconscious and follow the same rules as player characters."

Even if the Simulacrum's soul status is unclear, even if you want to make an argument about the lack of explicit "dying", as a creature when it drops to 0 hit points, it either dies outright or becomes "unconscious", the same applying both to PC's and Monsters ( Creatures ), so a DM would either have to make the Simulacrum puddle roll death saves in which case it would most likely fail or somehow get 1hp back with a nat 20, or consider it to "die".


Secondly, even without arguing the above, from Simulacrum spell description - "The simulacrum lasts until it drops to 0 hit points", which means it is no longer actually "The Simulacrum" after dropping to 0 hit points, since it ceased to last, and the puddle of melted water is nothing more than it's inert remains, the ice it was created from yet no longer a creature. Since the creature I possessed is no more, whether you want to call it dead otherwise ( Which it is by all means according to both the SRD and the fact it ceased to exist ), the Magic Jar spell ends since the creature I possessed has reverted to snow and I can't possess snow.

Lastly, even without all of the above, I would still not be thwarted by any interpretation of the situation. First of all, once that happens, no "Sending" spell will arrive to my familiar back in my mirror cell after 8 hours, and he will knock over the Magic Jar container and end the spell anyway.

[qube]

From the 5E SRD - "When you drop to 0 hit points, you either die outright or fall unconscious, as explained in the following sections.", And from the same section in "Monsters and Death" - "Most GMs have a monster die the instant it drops to 0 hit points, rather than having it fall unconscious and make death saving throws.", "Mighty villains and special nonplayer characters are common exceptions; the GM might have them fall unconscious and follow the same rules as player characters.no no no ... you're not getting away that easily.

The section you refer to deals with dying by massive damage, unconciousness, and death saving throws (https://5thsrd.org/combat/damage_and_healing/). A Simulacrum FYI, by strict raw, is not a monster but a spell, (heck, it's a PC) so by strict RAW, Monsters and Death don't even apply.

By RAW specific overwrites generic. Just as vampires turn to mist when they reach zero hp, Simulacrum turn to water. By RAW
they possibly fall unconcious (unless massive damage is dealt)
then turn into water.
water doesn't make death saving throws, as you only make those "Whenever you start your turn with 0 hit points". With h the spell ending, you stopped being a creature and became an inanimate object.


Since the creature I possessed is no more, whether you want to call it dead otherwise ( Which it is by all means according to both the SRD and the fact it ceased to exist ), the Magic Jar spell ends since the creature I possessed has reverted to snow and I can't possess snow. I can only say to you what you said to others: stop making things up.

By strickt RAW here, Magic Jar has no "it ends when it turns into something I can't posses" clause. it only matters if it's a humanoid when you enter it - which you vigorously argued that it is by strickt RAW.

And heck, by rules as intended, magic jar also doesn't end when you cast true polymorph, changing into something that is no longer humanoid.


Lastly, even without all of the above, I would still not be thwarted by any interpretation of the situation. First of all, once that happens, no "Sending" spell will arrive to my familiar back in my mirror cell after 8 hours, and he will knock over the Magic Jar container and end the spell anyway.No? you really don't consider that being twarted?

First of, there's an 8 hour window that the one who killed you to figure out "hey, humans don't turn into ice when they die, right? perhaps we should cast a divination spell to see what's going on *cast*. *oh* Gate. Nuke the familiar, destroy the clone, break the jar). Seriously, you never fought smart enemies before?

But even more to the point: every time you die, you need to spend 120 days on a new clone before leaving (or risk permadeath).

vampire: 2 hours, up to 1 day
lich: up to 10 days
wizard: 120 day.
"Look at me!!!! I'm a almost a Deity !!!!!"


That's the equivalent of paying an NPC cleric to cast divination 3/year and true resserection when he sees you're dead -- which any class can do.

[Beelzebubba]

See, Renduaz, you're going a this the wrong way.

The way to get people to respect you is the post something clever, with all the steps, and ask 'tell me how this will break? How can we improve this?' If you did that, then the cleverness you've shown so far would be proven, and you'd get really smart people to either help your idea get better or show you where your reasoning is flawed - making you better.

Instead, you spend all your energy trying to prove that 'no, I'm the smartest one here, I always have been, none of you critics make sense' when a lot of them make perfect sense.

It's as if the first person to post the Hulking Hurler build spent all their time debunking everyone else's contributions, saying that there was no possible way!!! anyone could improve on it. But there was. And the combined efforts of the community proved it. And it became legendary.

Your stuff is pretty clever, and goes further towards finding interesting exploits than I ever though of, but you oversell it. You're trying to prove that you and you alone found this perfect WIN, when it's really not true. You found a chain of events that goes pretty far, but will fail at certain points due to legitimate differences of rules interpretations that are built into the game's design, and one or two other points due to your mistaken judgment.

It's too bad you're not being more mature about this. You're not going to be the super famous cleverest gamer of all time, not at the rate you're going.

You're going to be legendary as a convoluted, argumentative troll though. :smallsmile:

[JackOfAllBuilds]

It's too bad you're not being more mature about this.
You're going to be legendary as a convoluted, argumentative troll though. :smallsmile:


https://media.giphy.com/media/dOJt6XZlQw8qQ/giphy.gif

[Renduaz]

no no no ... you're not getting away that easily.

I'm not "getting away that easily"? My, you're really butthurt about the prospect of me being right about something and having a method that works, aren't you? And once again demonstrating total reading comprehension failure and a ridiculous amount of lying.


The section you refer to deals with dying by massive damage, unconciousness, and death saving throws (https://5thsrd.org/combat/damage_and_healing/). A Simulacrum FYI, by strict raw, is not a monster but a spell, (heck, it's a PC) so by strict RAW, Monsters and Death don't even apply.

Uhhh, not it doesn't. The chapter is "Damage and Healing" while the relevant subheading is "Dropping to 0 hit points", in which it is immediately written below before anything - "When you drop to 0 hit points, you either die outright or fall unconscious", and I have no clue what exactly are you trying to say in your spiteful mind about "Deals with". Rules are rules. And no, a Simulacrum by strict RAW is a creature, created by a spell, just like an Elemental is a creature created by a Conjure Elemental spell. Simulacrum explicitly states that it is a creature, not just a magical effect such as the illusion of "Invoke Duplicity" of the Trickery Cleric for instance. And if it's a PC, which it actually is regardless since by RAW you are "You" regardless of which body your soul inhabits ( "Once you possess a creature's body, you control it. Your game statistics are replaced by the statistics of the creature, though you retain your alignment and your Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores. You retain the benefit of your.... While possessing a body, you can use your action to return from the host body" ) and so on and so on, but you yourself insisted on the Magic Jar'd Simulacrum being "me" by definition ( Otherwise it completely breaks all RAW and the game anyway ), and therefore "When you drop to 0 hit points, you either die outright or fall unconscious" applies, no differently than how it works when my soul is in my own body.

You are wrong on 3 different levels and even managed to contradict your own argument, it's truly amazing.


By RAW specific overwrites generic. Just as vampires turn to mist when they reach zero hp, Simulacrum turn to water. By RAW
they possibly fall unconcious (unless massive damage is dealt)
then turn into water.
water doesn't make death saving throws, as you only make those "Whenever you start your turn with 0 hit points". With h the spell ending, you stopped being a creature and became an inanimate object.

What would actually happen by RAW when specific overwrites generic, while I possess a Simulacrum's body with Magic Jar, is that when *I* drop to 0 hit points, the host body melts into water, however *I* am still at 0 hit points, at which point unless massive damage is dealt, I fall unconscious, and do start my turn at 0 hit points, since nothing about that fact has changed.

Unfortunately for you, you made up the statement that "water doesn't make death saving throws" out of your ass. You see, the "Dropping to 0 Hit points" section states that YOU ( regardless of what you are ) begin making death saving throws whenever you start your turn with 0 hit points. And guess what Qube? The entire foundation of your whole argument defined the Water Puddle as "me", therefore I make death saving throws as a water puddle. Which isn't even weird because if you were as knowledgeable about RAW as you think, you would know that Objects can have Hit points perfectly fine in the DMG ( Page 246 ).

The only way for your argument to work is for you to assign me extra hit points as I ( the body currently occupied by my soul ) revert into water, which would:

1. Be a non-RAW ruling of your own making whereas strict RAW adherence would not induce any change to hit points
2. Violate the RAW of the Simulacrum as per the above - "The simulacrum lasts until it drops to 0 hit points, at which point it reverts to snow and melts instantly." ( The hit points of it still stand )
3. Such a ruling would be in contradiction to known principles about what happens when a creature turns into an object ( True Polymorph, Creature Into Object - "The creature's statistics become those of the object" )


I can only say to you what you said to others: stop making things up.

By strickt RAW here, Magic Jar has no "it ends when it turns into something I can't posses" clause. it only matters if it's a humanoid when you enter it - which you vigorously argued that it is by strickt RAW.

And heck, by rules as intended, magic jar also doesn't end when you cast true polymorph, changing into something that is no longer humanoid.

Very well, I'll give you that.


No? you really don't consider that being twarted?

First of, there's an 8 hour window that the one who killed you to figure out "hey, humans don't turn into ice when they die, right? perhaps we should cast a divination spell to see what's going on *cast*. *oh* Gate. Nuke the familiar, destroy the clone, break the jar). Seriously, you never fought smart enemies before?

But even more to the point: every time you die, you need to spend 120 days on a new clone before leaving (or risk permadeath).

vampire: 2 hours, up to 1 day
lich: up to 10 days
wizard: 120 day.
"Look at me!!!! I'm a almost a Deity !!!!!"


That's the equivalent of paying an NPC cleric to cast divination 3/year and true resserection when he sees you're dead -- which any class can do.

Nope, I don't. And again, I asked you once before, Qube, which you avoided because you realize how stupid your assertion was, which Divination spell are they going to use exactly?

Yes, you would need to spend 120 days, in exchange for being much, MUCH harder to destroy than a mere Vampire with Sunlight on his Mist Form or finding his coffin, a Lich by reaching his Phylactery, no to mention avoiding being trapped. And yeah, I'm sure that putting your trust in an NPC Cleric, powerful enough to cast a 9th level spell, which would cost 25,000gp each time, with an ability that doesn't take into account any possible circumstances that might change the outcome, which leaves your body or remains exposed, which allows you to be trapped, and which won't stop you from aging or negate your need to sleep, eat and drink either, nor keep you at a constantly sheltered and protected extradimensional cell during which you could even plan or direct followers via Sending while you're waiting, is exactly the same.

Yeah, no difference at all.


See, Renduaz, you're going a this the wrong way.

The way to get people to respect you is the post something clever, with all the steps, and ask 'tell me how this will break? How can we improve this?' If you did that, then the cleverness you've shown so far would be proven, and you'd get really smart people to either help your idea get better or show you where your reasoning is flawed - making you better.

Instead, you spend all your energy trying to prove that 'no, I'm the smartest one here, I always have been, none of you critics make sense' when a lot of them make perfect sense.

It's as if the first person to post the Hulking Hurler build spent all their time debunking everyone else's contributions, saying that there was [B]no possible way!!! anyone could improve on it. But there was. And the combined efforts of the community proved it. And it became legendary.

Your stuff is pretty clever, and goes further towards finding interesting exploits than I ever though of, but you oversell it. You're trying to prove that you and you alone found this perfect WIN, when it's really not true. You found a chain of events that goes pretty far, but will fail at certain points due to legitimate differences of rules interpretations that are built into the game's design, and one or two other points due to your mistaken judgment.

It's too bad you're not being more mature about this. You're not going to be the super famous cleverest gamer of all time, not at the rate you're going.

You're going to be legendary as a convoluted, argumentative troll though. :smallsmile:

Except there has been no issue with people who do so. We have a couple of people here who are arguing spitefully, arrogantly, in bad faith and out of malicious personal motives from the very post they made in the thread, while being factually wrong about the RAW they're citing. There are legitimate weaknesses such as someone using an Antimagic Field on the Simulacrum if they have access to it, but posters such as Qube are not talking about those, rather attacking points in the RAW without any basis out of hatefulness.

[qube]

I'm not "getting away that easily"? My, you're really butthurt about the prospect of me being right about something and having a method that works, aren't you? And once again demonstrating total reading comprehension failure and a ridiculous amount of lying. no I see you squiming RAW! RAW ! Strict RAW ! Strict RA... oh wait, raw would prove me wrong. RANDOM QUOTATION TIME!


What would actually happen by RAW when specific overwrites generic, while I possess a Simulacrum's body with Magic Jar, is that when *I* drop to 0 hit points, the host body melts into water, however *I* am still at 0 hit points, at which point unless massive damage is dealt, I fall unconscious, and do start my turn at 0 hit points, since nothing about that fact has changed.Book and page number please.

Where's the RAW that creates this disjunct between you being at 0 hp, while still in a body of more then 0 hp?
(yes, more then zero hp, ref next response)


You see, the "Dropping to 0 Hit points" section states that YOU ( regardless of what you are ) begin making death saving throws whenever you start your turn with 0 hit points. And guess what Qube? The entire foundation of your whole argument defined the Water Puddle as "me", therefore I make death saving throws as a water puddle. Which isn't even weird because if you were as knowledgeable about RAW as you think, you would know that Objects can have Hit points perfectly fine in the DMG ( Page 246 ). LOL ... you seriously like shooting yourself in the foot do you? You will note


water doesn't make death saving throws, as you only make those "Whenever you start your turn with 0 hit points". With h the spell ending, you stopped being a creature and became an inanimate object.

You will note that I agree 100% water has hit points. All inanimate objects do. However, just like any inanimate objects, it's hit points aren't zero. For example:
a medium amount of ice would have 4 hp and AC 13. (litteral RAW: medium amount of fragile ice)
once melted, the large body of water could have 20 hp and resist all except fire to turn into mist (presuming your DM considers it durable, etc ...)
the huge mist produced could have 5 hp and resist all except cold
...
But never zero hit points. zero hp matter can't exist in D&D.

So you will never start at zero hp (just some form of matter), so never death saving throws.



which Divination spell are they going to use exactly? Does it really matter? Legend Lore? the Divination spell itself? You know, the usual spells one uses to prod the DM for information.

edit: and seeing as you're the PC, the DM would be prodding himself for information, thus will probbably don't be a **** to himself and provide enough information


Yeah, no difference at all.Oh, there is a difference: being that mine actually works in practice - not just by if-we-follow-the-literal-word-of-RAW (and even the latter is unsure, as you've yet to present a RAW book&page-number ; opposite to your own opinion; that the simularicum would lose it's 'can't regain spell' )


but posters such as Qube are not talking about those, rather attacking points in the RAW without any basis out of hatefulness. O ... K ...

Other then the fact of course that Qube has no clue who the heck you are ... & Qube has even less of a clue why the heck he would hate you if he knew you ... and even less of a clue, if that was even possible why he would break his character trait of not acting out of hatred.

Qube, on the other hand,is posting out of the fact your trick doesn't work: You need to dig too deep into strict RAW for certain parts to work, so that other parts stop working as they rey on non-strict RAW (a.k.a. sane interpretations of it). And that's not how TO works.

... but hey, who am I to remark on Qube's motives ...

[Renduaz]

no I see you squiming RAW! RAW ! Strict RAW ! Strict RA... oh wait, raw would prove me wrong. RANDOM QUOTATION TIME!

Book and page number please.

Where's the RAW that creates this disjunct between you being at 0 hp, while still in a body of more then 0 hp?
(yes, more then zero hp, ref next response)

LOL ... you seriously like shooting yourself in the foot do you? You will note


water doesn't make death saving throws, as you only make those "Whenever you start your turn with 0 hit points". With h the spell ending, you stopped being a creature and became an inanimate object.

You will note that I agree 100% water has hit points. All inanimate objects do. However, just like any inanimate objects, it's hit points aren't zero. For example:
a medium amount of ice would have 4 hp and AC 13. (litteral RAW: medium amount of fragile ice)
once melted, the large body of water could have 20 hp and resist all except fire to turn into mist (presuming your DM considers it durable, etc ...)
the huge mist produced could have 5 hp and resist all except cold
...
But never zero hit points. zero hp matter can't exist in D&D.

So you will never start at zero hp (just some form of matter), so never death saving throws.


Does it really matter? Legend Lore? the Divination spell itself? You know, the usual spells one uses to prod the DM for information.

edit: and seeing as you're the PC, the DM would be prodding himself for information, thus will probbably don't be a **** to himself and provide enough information

Oh, there is a difference: being that mine actually works in practice - not just by if-we-follow-the-literal-word-of-RAW (and even the latter is unsure, as you've yet to present a RAW book&page-number ; opposite to your own opinion; that the simularicum would lose it's 'can't regain spell' )

O ... K ...

Other then the fact of course that Qube has no clue who the heck you are ... & Qube has even less of a clue why the heck he would hate you if he knew you ... and even less of a clue, if that was even possible why he would break his character trait of not acting out of hatred.

Qube, on the other hand,is posting out of the fact your trick doesn't work: You need to dig too deep into strict RAW for certain parts to work, so that other parts stop working as they rey on non-strict RAW (a.k.a. sane interpretations of it). And that's not how TO works.

... but hey, who am I to remark on Qube's motives ...

>Where's the RAW that creates this disjunct between you being at 0 hp, while still in a body of more then 0 hp?

The part where the Simulacrum is you, and you just dropped to 0 hit points, at which point you either die outright ( if massive damage is dealt ), or drop unconscious. Pick one.

>it's hit points aren't zero

BOOK AND PAGE NUMBER PLEASE

BOOK AND PAGE NUMBER PLEASE

BOOK AND PAGE NUMBER PLEASE

BOOK AND PAGE NUMBER PLEASE

>once melted, the large body of water could have

BOOK AND PAGE NUMBER PLEASE

BOOK AND PAGE NUMBER PLEASE

BOOK AND PAGE NUMBER PLEASE

BOOK AND PAGE NUMBER PLEASE

>But never zero hit points. zero hp matter can't exist in D&D.

BOOK AND PAGE NUMBER PLEASE

BOOK AND PAGE NUMBER PLEASE

BOOK AND PAGE NUMBER PLEASE

BOOK AND PAGE NUMBER PLEASE

Don't have an explicit one for the above? Then the water by default which the Simulacrum reverted to upon dropping to 0 hit points does not gain nor lose any hit points, so that RAW remains unaltered. Zero HP matter does exist in D&D, as Object Hit Points represent how much damage it can take before losing structural integrity ( Much like how damage your body can take before getting dismembered or whatever, even though your pulp or flesh as an object might still have it's own AC and HP once you're dead ), and in order to break the structural integrity you must reduce it to 0 hit points. The DMG gives an example - ( "For example, a Gargantuan statue of a human might topple over when one of its Large legs is reduced to 0 hit points." ), and in that moment one of it's large legs is a matter which exists at 0 hit points.

In fact, furthermore, even as you ignore the first time I drop to 0 hit points, the snow melting instantly would be the total loss of structural integrity as "snow", no longer being snow, thus ONCE AGAIN putting me at 0 hit points, which according to RAW, means that *you* either die outright or fall unconscious, and if it's the latter, you start making death saving throws obviously.

So number 1, Per Strict RAW TM, as soon as the Simulacrum drops to 0 hit points, *I* drop to 0 hit points, since it is me, and either die outright or fall unconscious regardless of anything else. Number 2, matter can be at 0 hit points.

Legend Lore? First of all, Glad to hear you assign me Legendary Importance after calling me a fake, worthless deity. Because otherwise, Legend Lore wouldn't work. Secondly, Lore =/= Knowledge. There is as much Lore on me as there is on a newborn baby as soon as I enter my Demiplane and it is warded with Mordekainen's Private Sanctum. There are no current tales, forgotten stories, or secret lore that has never been widely known. As for Divination - "You ask a single question concerning a specific goal, event, or activity to occur within 7 days.", what do they intend to ask in order to access my cell exactly? How are they going to glean a "precise location" on my spatially infinite mirror cell to open a Gate in? And as for named Gate, we already discussed Private Sanctum within the cell

Lastly, none of that matters, since as I've already pointed out, the Familiar will just knock over the Magic Jar and end the spell anyway if he doesn't get a Sending from me, thus making your whole water arguement irrelevant for my method to work ( Which I notice you ignore ), leaving you only with your Divination horse crap.

[Unoriginal]

Just to say, if someone did Magic Jar themselves into a Simulacrum, they'd still be vulnerable to Imprisonment (the Minimus Containment at least), and couldn't escape even if the Jar is destroyed.

[Renduaz]

Just to say, if someone did Magic Jar themselves into a Simulacrum, they'd still be vulnerable to Imprisonment (the Minimus Containment at least), and couldn't escape even if the Jar is destroyed.

I assume you are referring to the "nothing can pass through" wording of Burial and Minimus Containment, which would presumably include souls, since they are something. So the soul will not be free, and be unable to return to the Clone. I suppose that "Burial's" sphere of magical force can be breached with an Antimagic Field or Dispel Magic at the 9th level anyway, so we're left with Minimus Containment. Looking at the spell description, the first thing I notice is that whoever wrote it was really neglectful since first of all it states the target shrinks to a height of 1 inch, but for some reason nothing about width or weight.

I suppose then, since you are not unconscious or anything while within the gem ( You can see outside of it ), and nothing in the spell description prevents you from casting spells while within, nor would your size ( See Enlarge/Reduce ) or location be an issue under any known RAW, then there is no reason why you can't cast spells within the Gem. In which case, Dispel Magic at 9th level on the gem, and then just teleport out.

[Unoriginal]

Casting Imprisonment: Slumber and then Imprisonment: Minimus Containment on the person would lock them up for good, though, by the same logic.

[JackPhoenix]

Specific vs general.

Yes, general rule is that when a creature drops to 0 hp, it starts rolling death saves... unless other, more specific rules interfere. If you're hit with massive damage, no death saves for you, you're dead (PHB 197). If you're hit with Disintegrate, no death saves for you, you're dust (p. 233). If you're polymorphed or wild shaped druid, you won't die when you hit 0 hp, you just revert into your original form (p. 66 and 266. On the same note, both abilities specify "when you drop to 0 hit points or die", because one doesn't necessarily require the other). If you get affected by Power Word Kill, you're dead without death saves or need to hit 0 hp first... that's why it kills onion druids (p. 266-267). If Simulacrum drops to 0 hp, it doesn't die, but turns into snow and melts into puddle of water (p. 276).

But hey, are those examples are only RAW, that doesn't matter to you, you'll choose whatever interpretation you like.

[Renduaz]

Casting Imprisonment: Slumber and then Imprisonment: Minimus Containment on the person would lock them up for good, though, by the same logic.

Pretty sure that would be negated by the section on Combining Magical Effects: "The effects of different spells add together while the durations of those spells overlap. The effects of the same spell cast multiple times don’t combine, however." Despite choosing a different a form of Imprisonment, it is still the same spell.

[Renduaz]

Specific vs general.

Yes, general rule is that when a creature drops to 0 hp, it starts rolling death saves... unless other, more specific rules interfere. If you're hit with massive damage, no death saves for you, you're dead (PHB 197). If you're hit with Disintegrate, no death saves for you, you're dust (p. 233). If you're polymorphed or wild shaped druid, you won't die when you hit 0 hp, you just revert into your original form (p. 66 and 266. On the same note, both abilities specify "when you drop to 0 hit points or die", because one doesn't necessarily require the other). If you get affected by Power Word Kill, you're dead without death saves or need to hit 0 hp first... that's why it kills onion druids (p. 266-267). If Simulacrum drops to 0 hp, it doesn't die, but turns into snow and melts into puddle of water (p. 276).

But hey, are those examples are only RAW, that doesn't matter to you, you'll choose whatever interpretation you like.

Disintegrate and Power Word Kill specifically skip the death saving throws and unconsciousness steps since they kill you outright, while Polymorph and Wildshape do not impose either, since you still have the same hit points you had as a creature prior to your transformation upon reverting, and unconsciousness ends if you regain any hit points. You do technically become Unconscious in your new form when dropping to 0 hit points since you essentially vanish from that form, but it's instantaneous and irrelevant since you immediately revert to your old form. When the Simulacrum drops to 0 hit points there is nothing in the description which skips any steps, nor do you revert to a form which had it's own defined hit points.

Ironically, you've just proven me even more correct by referencing the "Disintegrate" spell. It actually only says that if the target is reduced to 0 hit points, it is disintegrated, but it never explicitly says "dies", and then reduced to a pile of fine gray dust. According to your and Qube's spiteful logic and abysmal failure to comprehend RAW, that would mean the target's soul now occupies a pile of fine gray dust which has it's own randomly assigned hit points. Only the sentence of "The creature can be restored to life only by means of a true resurrection or a wish spell." implies that the creature is not alive ( Yet a disintegrated "Creature" ceased to exist upon being reduced to a pile of dust ), but not that the target's soul does not currently inhabit a pile of dust as an object!

Spiteful arguments, for the win! Except by RAW both the pile of dust and puddle of water are still at 0 hit points since that's what the creature which either reverted or was reduced to them was and there is not hit point change per RAW, and regardless either instant death or unconsciousness and death saving throws ( Until regaining hit points ) begin from the very moment you drop to 0 hit points at any form, which isn't a case of general rule vs specific rule, since nothing precludes you from first, suffering the "Unconscious" condition as a creature, since damage has reduced you to 0 hit points and failed to kill you, then continuing to make death saving throws regardless of your form. Those are not mutually exclusive.

[JNAProductions]

See, Renduaz, you're going a this the wrong way.

The way to get people to respect you is the post something clever, with all the steps, and ask 'tell me how this will break? How can we improve this?' If you did that, then the cleverness you've shown so far would be proven, and you'd get really smart people to either help your idea get better or show you where your reasoning is flawed - making you better.

Instead, you spend all your energy trying to prove that 'no, I'm the smartest one here, I always have been, none of you critics make sense' when a lot of them make perfect sense.

It's as if the first person to post the Hulking Hurler build spent all their time debunking everyone else's contributions, saying that there was no possible way!!! anyone could improve on it. But there was. And the combined efforts of the community proved it. And it became legendary.

Your stuff is pretty clever, and goes further towards finding interesting exploits than I ever though of, but you oversell it. You're trying to prove that you and you alone found this perfect WIN, when it's really not true. You found a chain of events that goes pretty far, but will fail at certain points due to legitimate differences of rules interpretations that are built into the game's design, and one or two other points due to your mistaken judgment.

It's too bad you're not being more mature about this. You're not going to be the super famous cleverest gamer of all time, not at the rate you're going.

You're going to be legendary as a convoluted, argumentative troll though. :smallsmile:

Beelz, great post. Renduaz, you'd be wise to listen to him-I'd say who you remind me of, but they've been banned.

[ThePolarBear]

The chapter is "Damage and Healing" while the relevant subheading is "Dropping to 0 hit points", in which it is immediately written below before anything - "When you drop to 0 hit points, you either die outright or fall unconscious", and I have no clue what exactly are you trying to say in your spiteful mind about "Deals with". Rules are rules.

The chapter "Damage and Healing" is superceded by "Simulacrum" since "Simulacrum" is more specific about what happens to a simulacrum once it hits 0 hit points.
"It reverts to snow and melts". It doesn't die, it ceases to be a) an active spell effect b) a creature. Everything else ceases to apply - the thing that might be dead is not a creature.


And no, a Simulacrum by strict RAW is a creature, created by a spell, just like an Elemental is a creature created by a Conjure Elemental spell.

Simulacrum doesn't cease the description of what a simulacrum is at "a creature".
"The duplicate is a creature, partially real and formed from ice or snow, and it can take actions and otherwise be affected as a normal creature."

Even the spell implies that it's not a normal creature. And not only because it is created via a spell, but because it's only "partially real". Partially real is a kicker here: It is not a completely real creature. We know that it's an aggregate of snow an illusory magic, given memories and limited mental abilities.

I would like to add that Conjure Elemental does not create creatures. It conjures them from another place. Once the duration is over or the creature gets to 0 hp it simply disappears. (And it gets sent back to where it belonged)


And if it's a PC, which it actually is regardless since by RAW you are "You" regardless of which body your soul inhabits [... whole description on how the fused soul + host body it's "you"...]

No. You are only in control of the host body. You can use YOUR actions to make something happen, but the host creature cannot act and can only watch because the spell says so. You are not them, you are using their body. Magic Jar is quite clear on the fact that the host body is not you, and you are what is controlling the body.
In fact, you do not die even the host body dies or if your body dies. You only die if you are too far away from the jar when the host body dies or you are near but fail a saving throw OR your body is dead (or too far away) when the spell ends (or when the jar is destroyed). YOU are quite clearly not the body you are inhabiting , but the soul taking control.


What would actually happen by RAW when specific overwrites generic, while I possess a Simulacrum's body with Magic Jar, is that when *I* drop to 0 hit points, the host body melts into water, however *I* am still at 0 hit points, at which point unless massive damage is dealt, I fall unconscious, and do start my turn at 0 hit points, since nothing about that fact has changed.

No. You are not at 0 hps. Your host body might be, your body might be, your body might be dead. You might still survive if you have the jar still intact.
This is Magic jar, RAW. Telling a player "you are at 0 hps" is just conventional speaking.
Magic jar specifically tells that when the host body DIES you return to the jar if if you manage a saving throw and the jar is near enough. Otherwise you too die.
At 0 hps nothing strange happens. You could still, as an action, go back to the jar... assuming your DM does not apply the rule "0 hp = dead" to monsters and that it does not believe that the state of your body might impair your ability to take that action.

As a soul, it's arguable if you even have any hp to track. You, at the moment, are an aggregate of class features, stats and memories.
And, i would like to add, that sparky something that is a soul. But what a soul is is not described by raw.


Nope, I don't. And again, I asked you once before, Qube, which you avoided because you realize how stupid your assertion was, which Divination spell are they going to use exactly?

Personally i love "Contact Other Planes".

Edit:


while Polymorph and Wildshape do not impose either, since you still have the same hit points you had as a creature prior to your transformation upon reverting, and unconsciousness ends if you regain any hit points. You do technically become Unconscious in your new form when dropping to 0 hit points since you essentially vanish from that form, but it's instantaneous and irrelevant since you immediately revert to your old form.

No. Both the examples have a specific exception to what happens at 0 hps that overrides the normal rules of what happens at 0 hps. You never become unconscious since the 0 hp specific happens before the 0 hp general.
You do not lose concentration, for example, by being beaten to 0 hps while polymorphed or wild shaped. The general simply does not happen, exactly like Disintegrate or PWD. Which, by the way, are more specific than both Polymorph and Wild Shape, and kill outright when 0 hp is reached.

[Renduaz]

The chapter "Damage and Healing" is superceded by "Simulacrum" since "Simulacrum" is more specific about what happens to a simulacrum once it hits 0 hit points.
"It reverts to snow and melts". It doesn't die, it ceases to be a) an active spell effect b) a creature. Everything else ceases to apply - the thing that might be dead is not a creature.



Simulacrum doesn't cease the description of what a simulacrum is at "a creature".
"The duplicate is a creature, partially real and formed from ice or snow, and it can take actions and otherwise be affected as a normal creature."

Even the spell implies that it's not a normal creature. And not only because it is created via a spell, but because it's only "partially real". Partially real is a kicker here: It is not a completely real creature. We know that it's an aggregate of snow an illusory magic, given memories and limited mental abilities.

I would like to add that Conjure Elemental does not create creatures. It conjures them from another place. Once the duration is over or the creature gets to 0 hp it simply disappears. (And it gets sent back to where it belonged)



No. You are only in control of the host body. You can use YOUR actions to make something happen, but the host creature cannot act and can only watch because the spell says so. You are not them, you are using their body. Magic Jar is quite clear on the fact that the host body is not you, and you are what is controlling the body.
In fact, you do not die even the host body dies or if your body dies. You only die if you are too far away from the jar when the host body dies or you are near but fail a saving throw OR your body is dead (or too far away) when the spell ends (or when the jar is destroyed). YOU are quite clearly not the body you are inhabiting , but the soul taking control.



No. You are not at 0 hps. Your host body might be, your body might be, your body might be dead. You might still survive if you have the jar still intact.
This is Magic jar, RAW. Telling a player "you are at 0 hps" is just conventional speaking.
Magic jar specifically tells that when the host body DIES you return to the jar if if you manage a saving throw and the jar is near enough. Otherwise you too die.
At 0 hps nothing strange happens. You could still, as an action, go back to the jar... assuming your DM does not apply the rule "0 hp = dead" to monsters and that it does not believe that the state of your body might impair your ability to take that action.

As a soul, it's arguable if you even have any hp to track. You, at the moment, are an aggregate of class features, stats and memories.
And, i would like to add, that sparky something that is a soul. But what a soul is is not described by raw.



Personally i love "Contact Other Planes".

Here we go.

>is superceded by "Simulacrum" since "Simulacrum" is more specific about what happens to a simulacrum once it hits 0 hit points.

Not it's not, the two are not mutually exclusive. You can drop to 0 hit points, become unconscious as a creature and start making death saves regardless of which form you take afterwards

>Simulacrum doesn't cease the description of what a simulacrum is at "a creature".

Irrelevant to the RAW at hand, since "partially real" has absolutely no bearing on any of the terms we're discussing. If you want to argue RAW here then stick to it.

>I would like to add that Conjure Elemental does not create creatures.

You're right it doesn't, "Animate Dead" does, from bones instead of ice, and the creature is an Undead creature, "foul mimicry of life" or otherwise.

>No. You are only in control of the host body.

It's as "you" as much as you are you while under True Polymorph, otherwise you completely broke the game and the Magic Jar spell. Tell me then, when you use a Magic Jar spell normally, what do spell, effects, attacks, abilities and so on which say they target "you" do exactly?

>but the host creature cannot act and can only watch because the spell says so.

Lie. It says "The possessed creature's soul "

>You are not them

No, I am myself, which is the combination of body and soul.

>Magic Jar is quite clear on the fact that the host body is not you

Not really. "You retain the benefit of your own class features." - Let's say I have the Wildshape class ability. Wildshape - "Starting at 2nd level, you can use your action... to magically assume the shape of a beast", oops, according to you, the host body is not "me", it has nothing to do with "me", and Wildshape never says anything about your body. It says you use an action to assume ( you assume ) the shape of a beast. I guess my soul turns into a beast inside the Magic Jar body?

What if I'm a Paladin with Lay on Hands? "As an action, you can touch a creature".... what's that, you want me to do that with the hands of the host body? No sorry can't do, the ability works by "you" doing it, the body isn't "you", and as a soul I can't lay my hands on anyone. Those hands aren't mine anyway.

Should I keep going? It seems to denote both. Your soul and body act as one unit for as long as you are in there, and if the host body dies, only your soul remains and that's where those stipulations kick in.

I'm pretty sure I am at 0 hp per RAW, since your alternative idea fundamentally contradicts almost every game mechanic in existence and the Magic Jar spell itself too about class abilities.

And I can't really see how Contact Other Planes is going to help them reach me, given the answer they can get. Assuming the DM makes the a demigod, the spirit of a long-dead sage, or some other mysterious entity be capable of bypassing regular divination limitations, I guess.

[ThePolarBear]

Not it's not, the two are not mutually exclusive. You can drop to 0 hit points, become unconscious as a creature and start making death saves regardless of which form you take afterwards

The rule is that specific overrules general. It is not "it happens at the same time". You discard what happens at 0 hit points for the general rule if the specific causes the general to be not applicable. The simulacrum REVERTS to snow. There's no longer a creature there. How can rules for creatures apply to something that's not a creature?



Irrelevant to the RAW at hand, since "partially real" has absolutely no bearing on any of the terms we're discussing. If you want to argue RAW here then stick to it.


That is the RAW. You should follow your own advice. RAW tells that the resulting creature is not entirely real but still is affected as a normal creature. Not everything i write has to go against your wishes or your points. If you want to work with RAW you have to work with ALL of RAW, even the point that might be used to disprove what you think it's correct.

The fault you are making is that you, following RAW blindly, disregard what you consider to be entirely unessential and thus invalid for consideration.
However, RAW also tells us that:

a) Everything that's in the books has to be taken with natural language in mind.
b) A DM should apply rules with common sense

This means that, RAW, "partially real" is as important as everything else, because it still is part of the description and must be taken into consideration.
As is the fact that the partially real creature has to be specifically elected to be able to be affected as any other creature can IS important to your point.
The end result is that it can, RAW, be affected by Magic Jar.
However, the impossibility to regain spell slots is due to its nature as spell effect which does not end with the soul entering the body, just as much as an Haste spell would not disappear, and electing to ignore it just because you do not consider it to be part of a body limitation on a spell that "poofs" a creature in existance is disingenuos.



You're right it doesn't, "Animate Dead" does, from bones instead of ice, and the creature is an Undead creature, "foul mimicry of life" or otherwise.


Fair enough



It's as "you" as much as you are you while under True Polymorph, otherwise you completely broke the game and the Magic Jar spell. Tell me then, when you use a Magic Jar spell normally, what do spell, effects, attacks, abilities and so on which say they target "you" do exactly?


Still your body even if polymorphed. Different shapes and capabilities.

Again, common English. That is Raw. There's nothing broken. The book does not differentiate between the "fictional" you and the "real" you. It uses you for both your character and you, the player. It makes no distinction because it assumes the capabilities of the reader to distinguish between the various uses of you.

However, for the sake of 0 hps, death and such there are specific rules that clarify exceptional cases that should be considered by a DM when making rulings.
"You" do not die when the host body dies - or at least you are not guaranteed to. There's the need to clarify the "yous".



Lie. It says "The possessed creature's soul "


Right, it's YOUR soul that enters the jar, not YOUR CHARACTER's, right?
Common english, common sense?
Oh, or prehaps does it mean that the body can still punch itself or move, since there's no indication that you have EXCLUSIVE control?
Or shall we accept the fact that you understood what i meant, and that the creature can't control his body and perception is limited around the jar, indipendently of the fact that it is explicitly called a soul, indicating that there's that part of the creature that's not in the body?

And that still isn't important to the point i made: RAW there's nothing that validates that you become the creature you are possessing.
There's no need for it.



No, I am myself, which is the combination of body and soul.


You are a player reading a book that states that YOUR soul enters a creature's body.
And the one explicitly called "your body" is not what you are sitting in. Magic jar does exactly this: exceptions on what you are.



Not really. "You retain the benefit of your own class features." - Let's say I have the Wildshape class ability. Wildshape - "Starting at 2nd level, you can use your action... to magically assume the shape of a beast", oops, according to you, the host body is not "me", it has nothing to do with "me", and Wildshape never says anything about your body. It says you use an action to assume ( you assume ) the shape of a beast. I guess my soul turns into a beast inside the Magic Jar body?

What if I'm a Paladin with Lay on Hands? "As an action, you can touch a creature".... what's that, you want me to do that with the hands of the host body? No sorry can't do, the ability works by "you" doing it, the body isn't "you", and as a soul I can't lay my hands on anyone. Those hands aren't mine anyway.

Should I keep going? It seems to denote both. Your soul and body act as one unit for as long as you are in there, and if the host body dies, only your soul remains and that's where those stipulations kick in.


You are still using the host body, and that is still NOT your body. You still have to use common sense. You can use all those abilities, you can still affect the body your soul is residing in. That still makes it NOT your body, and you still aren't that creature.
The one taking hits is the body. You are specifically using those HPs when inside that body. You can use it AS IF IT WAS YOURS, but it isn't.
If someone was to ask you, under a Zone of Truth while having failed a save, if you ARE the creature of which you are using the body, would it "ping" as a lie to answer "yes"?

The point is that, specifically for death, there IS a difference stated. It is an exceptional rule to follow. Simulacrum interact BEFORE that rule is enacted. A DM can very well say that the creature never dies, simply ceasing to exist.
Heck, even Disintegrate doesn't explicitly state that the "fine dust" isn't dead.

However, how come that sensible persons can identify being turned into dust as being very deadly?


I'm pretty sure I am at 0 hp per RAW, since your alternative idea fundamentally contradicts almost every game mechanic in existence and the Magic Jar spell itself too about class abilities.

You use the statistics of the creature that you are usurping. The hp "you" are using are those of the creature. "You" are at 0 hp, yet "you" arent. And in all of this there are exactly 0 contradictions. What your DM elects to do with what your character is able to do at 0 hps is up to them. It might use the rules for monsters for the body you are using, thus death. It might treat that body as a pc. It might even do something else entirely, like nothing at all and still let you take the action. Your body, the one you left behind, might already be dead, and been dead for a long time.


And I can't really see how Contact Other Planes is going to help them reach me, given the answer they can get. Assuming the DM makes the a demigod, the spirit of a long-dead sage, or some other mysterious entity be capable of bypassing regular divination limitations, I guess.

For how imaginative you are, i honestly (and i seriously mean honestly - you do come up with lots of ideas, whether truly yours or not i never confirmed but i have no reason not to believe those as yours) expected a little bit more enthusiams from Contact Other Planes. Ways of preventing divinations aren't usually retroactive. Contacting demigods and such is a sure fire way to get some answers for people determined to get them, as it's very much a given that some powerful entities are interested in the movements of a high level wizard (and some are not really stopped by mere "mortal" magic). It will take time, and it relies necessarily on the requirements of WANTING to find you or something you carry/have in possession. It's pretty much a "20 questions" game, with many more questions allowed.

[qube]

>Where's the RAW that creates this disjunct between you being at 0 hp, while still in a body of more then 0 hp?

The part where the Simulacrum is you, and you just dropped to 0 hit points, at which point you either die outright ( if massive damage is dealt ), or drop unconscious. Pick one.by RAW, dropping unconscious is not the same as being at zero hp.


>it's hit points aren't zero

BOOK AND PAGE NUMBER PLEASE
BOOK AND PAGE NUMBER PLEASE
BOOK AND PAGE NUMBER PLEASE
BOOK AND PAGE NUMBER PLEASEthe same book & page number you to when you said


The entire foundation of your whole argument defined the Water Puddle as "me", therefore I make death saving throws as a water puddle. Which isn't even weird because if you were as knowledgeable about RAW as you think, you would know that Objects can have Hit points perfectly fine in the DMG ( Page 246 ).

You ran into a circular problem: either they don't have hit points, which implies you can't be at zero hit points, or objects do have hit points ... at which point it will not be zero (an object reduced to zero hit points is loses it's structural integrity and transform into other (destroyable) objects - ergo they have hit points of their own).


In fact, furthermore, even as you ignore the first time I drop to 0 hit points, the snow melting instantly would be the total loss of structural integrity as "snow", no longer being snow, thus ONCE AGAIN putting me at 0 hit points, which according to RAW, means that *you* either die outright or fall unconscious, and if it's the latter, you start making death saving throws obviously.see, now you get it! well, almost.

your snow has hp, and turns into water. However, unlike a living creature, when an object is destroyed, it turns into a different object (water, in this case) - which again, could be destroyed one way or another (ex. boiling with fire damage), so it has hp.

Consider that a door has hit points, but when you break it - it turns into wooden shards
Wooden shards, on their turn, have hit points of their own and can be broken into smaller shards, etc ...


So number 1, Per Strict RAW TM, as soon as the Simulacrum drops to 0 hit points, *I* drop to 0 hit points, since it is me, and either die outright or fall unconscious regardless of anything else. Number 2, matter can be at 0 hit points.
Again, yes, you drop to zero hp. But you only make a saving throw when you start your turn at zero hp. Which as inanimate object, you never do.
(the concept that an object would be more after 18 seconds of shatter is nonsense)


"You ask a single question concerning a specific goal, event, or activity to occur within 7 days.", what do they intend to ask in order to access my cell exactly? How are they going to glean a "precise location" on my spatially infinite mirror cell to open a Gate in? And as for named Gate, we already discussed Private Sanctum within the cellPrivate Sanctum is in the demiplane, not the cell. if it were, you wouldn't be able to get out, as PS restricts extradimentional travel (like Gate).

As for what would be asked: "this guy obviously isn't permadeath. what's his plan to come back?".


Legend Lore? First of all, Glad to hear you assign me Legendary Importance after calling me a fake, worthless deity.
I didn't: it's called a catch-22.

If it is as important is you claim it is, it's much more easly beatable, and thus not as important to being with.

[qube]

Lastly, none of that matters, since as I've already pointed out, the Familiar will just knock over the Magic Jar and end the spell anyway if he doesn't get a Sending from meThat only works if your Simulacrum can keep casting sending

BOOK AND PAGE NUMBER PLEASE

BOOK AND PAGE NUMBER PLEASE

BOOK AND PAGE NUMBER PLEASE

BOOK AND PAGE NUMBER PLEASE

No where you have given book & page that magic jarring into a Simulacrum loses it's inability to learn spells. Best you so far have given is your incorrect assumption that the MM gives an exhaustive list of what is game statistic, and it technically not litterly being in there. Why would this not be a game statistic, while it clearly adheres to the first paragraph: being an essential part to run the 'monster', is beyond me. - and considering that physical abilities (like darkvision), mental abilities (like which languages known), even gear are game statistic ... yet an inability to relearn spells wouldn't be?

I don't see any objective DM interpreting RAW that way - so:

BOOK AND PAGE NUMBER PLEASE

BOOK AND PAGE NUMBER PLEASE

BOOK AND PAGE NUMBER PLEASE

BOOK AND PAGE NUMBER PLEASE that it has to be interpreted the way you do.

[JackOfAllBuilds]

I sincerely wish OP would fall into a coma

[Kadarai]

Oh! Renduaz thread! Stopped by to say hi! Keep the light burning bright guys!

[strangebloke]

No where you have given book & page that magic jarring into a Simulacrum loses it's inability to learn spells. Best you so far have given is your incorrect assumption that the MM gives an exhaustive list of what is game statistic, and it technically not litterly being in there. Why would this not be a game statistic, while it clearly adheres to the first paragraph: being an essential part to run the 'monster', is beyond me. - and considering that physical abilities (like darkvision), mental abilities (like which languages known), even gear are game statistic ... yet an inability to relearn spells wouldn't be?

I don't see any objective DM interpreting RAW that way - so:


interpreting it the way you do requires that the theoretical stat-block of the simulacrum references abilities that the simulacrum does not yet have, which is inconsistent with how monster manual stat-blocks are portrayed.

The Kenku, for instance, has no creativity whatsoever, and is incapable of coming up with words to express itself. But a lack of creativity is not an in-game stat. The kenku is not actually prevented from learning to speak in new languages without using its mimicry ability, even though fluff text indicates that this should not be the case. ('Is able to understand common and auran, but only speaks using its mimicry ability'. Nothing in there suggests that it cannot learn to speak in an additional language.) Most of the time, MM stats only refer to traits that monsters already have.

Your argument that you wouldn't be able to regain spells is certainly one acceptable interpretation of RAW. As a DM myself, I would allow Renduaz' version, because its totally baller and hey, if the campaign goes to 20th I'm probably letting them attain the status of a pseudo-deity anyway.

[qube]

The kenku is not actually prevented from learning to speak in new languages without using its mimicry ability

'Is able to understand common and auran, but only speaks using its mimicry ability'. Nothing in there suggests that it cannot learn to speak in an additional language.strangebloke, I see you are confating two things; learning to speak, and speaking.

As for RAW ...

You correctly point out, it is not prevented to learning to speak new language. However, it will never use this: dispite having learned to speak normal words & sentences, A kenku, to quote RAW, "only speaks using its mimicry ability". This does not change by simply learning a new language.

Pretty much the same way a hypothetical creature with the game statistic "only speaks with telepathy" (as the flavor points out that it has no vocal cords), doesn't magically 'ignore' this game statistic by taking the acolyte background.

And while you can rightfully argue the physical limitation of vocal cords is something else then Kenku's curse, you will note how RAW does not make that distinction.

As for RAI ...

And considering that most additional languages are learned at level 1, it's quite obvious that this is the way Kenku are intended to be played (it would be quite silly to play that Kenku are only able to mimic common & auran, while being fluent in elvish and orcish)

So in conclusion ...

strangebloke, your name seems to be an accurate pick, because I don't quite get your point: supposing I'm wrong, this is a horrible example to prove it to me: becasue both RAW & RAI confirm it would be my interpretation that's correct, opposite to yours or Renduaz.


As a DM myself, I would allow Renduaz' version, because its totally baller and hey, if the campaign goes to 20th I'm probably letting them attain the status of a pseudo-deity anyway. Honestly, I think that's a horrible idea, even if it would work: I mean, seriously, you're going to let the party wait 120 days - 4 freaking months - every time the wizard dies, opposite letting the cleric resurrect 'm ?

... how long before the party decides "Screw that, we're going to go on an adventure without 'm ?"

(you know ... it's not like Demogorgon/Tiamat/Lolth/whatever-apocalypse-is-in-progress are going to hold of for 4/8/12/... months because some guy trying to stop it is creating a clone)

[qube]

Oh, FYI:

How it would work, according to strickt RAW


Familiar
cast Simularicum (12hours)
cast Clone (1hours)
rest to refresh spells (8 hours)
cast Magic Jar
Magic Jar into Simularicum
{{ when you are reduced to zero hp, you turn into an inanimate object (not the same as dying) }}
{{ when you are dispelled, Simularicum stops to exist. again, not the same as dying }}
plane shift back to the party
{{adventure time}}
after 120 your clone is ready
familiar sees/knows this (it it can count to 120) and destroys the jar
your soul leaves the Simularicum (or where if ti was haning around) and it dies, ergo you go to the clone
Goto step 2.

Gain: Immortality (with a return trip of at most 120 days, spending ~ 22 hours per 120 days on resetting) --
Loss: ability to regain expended spellslots (6 & 7 spellslot used)

[strangebloke]

strangebloke, I see you are confating two things; learning to speak, and speaking.


I misunderstood something, but it wasn't what you think. I recalled (incorrectly) some kind of section regarding 'learning a new language' that says that you gain the ability to read, write and speak a new language. This blurb does not exist (and now that I think of it, really shouldn't), and so you are right.

However, if the Kenku gain an additional means of speaking, they can speak normally. For instance, there's the Belt of Dwarvenkind (https://roll20.net/compendium/dnd5e/Belt%20of%20Dwarvenkind#content) which would allow the Kenku to speak normally. (in dwarvish) There's also the GOO warlock's telepathy ability.

Point is, the blurb that modifies the Kenku's 'speech' ability does not cover new means of speech that a Kenku gets as part of their class features or magic items. Specific beats general. Obviously this is not RAI, since Kenku shouldn't even be able to write by RAI, since they have a cognitive disability that makes them incapable of expressing themselves.

The exact wording of the simulacrum's 'cannot learn' and 'cannot regain spell slot' traits is what would determine if a wizard possessing a simulacrum could regain spells or learn new things. Oddly enough, the 'keen mind' feat explicitly grants you the ability to remember things, so that's one possible circumvention.

And any player who is making the party wait 120 days has OOC problems. When I was saying I would allow it, I should have added that in no campaign that I've run has the party had four months of consecutive downtime. This is a 'after the adventure' sort of thing.

Regarding the 'gate to clones, kill them' trick... That's actually easy to get around. You can block planar travel in a wide area around where 'you,' AKA your original body is lying comatose. Then if someone tries to gate towards your name, they just get blocked, since the gate will try to appear 'in the immediate vicinity' of the person named. Meanwhile, your possesed simulacrum can run a few thousand feet before plane shifting away, so it isn't as though you've imprisoned yourself. Probably your clones should be stashed outside of the blocked off space... no way to know how planar mechanics mesh with souls traveling and such.

As to getting trapped in an inanimate object, you are totally right. But there are many ways to dispel magic jar if you absolutely need to. Contingency and the familiar trick both work just fine.

[qube]

I recalled (incorrectly) some kind of section regarding 'learning a new language' that says that you gain the ability to read, write and speak a new language. This blurb does not exist (and now that I think of it, really shouldn't), and so you are right.to be fair - I think it's more luck(y for me) then anything else that it's not mentioned. This is typically something quickly overwlooked when the writers pen down all the rules.

(this obviously implies the sheer sillyness of holding on to strict RAW as though it's divine law, but hey ... it works for some people)



The exact wording of the simulacrum's 'cannot learn' and 'cannot regain spell slot' traits is what would determine if a wizard possessing a simulacrum could regain spells or learn new things. Oddly enough, the 'keen mind' feat explicitly grants you the ability to remember things, so that's one possible circumvention.while I understand your point - it kind of start to come down to 'what happens when you have 2 conflicting abilities' -- AFAIK, RAW does not provide rules of precedent, so a character that both has 'can't speak' and 'can speak' ... there's no RAW solution.

However, that's not really the "discussion".
A simulacrum of a spellcaster can't learn spells. that's undisputed.
And when you magic jar that simulacrum, you don't gain extra abilities (seeing as you replace a level X wizard with a level X wizard).
Magic Jar gives you all the game statistics of the source creature - the "debate" is, if the 'can't learn spells' is a game statistic.

(IMHO a stupid debate, as it fits the definition of game statistic, and it sure as heck isn't the other thing, namely fluff; but Renduaz seems not to agree)


And any player who is making the party wait 120 days has OOC problems. When I was saying I would allow it, I should have added that in no campaign that I've run has the party had four months of consecutive downtime. This is a 'after the adventure' sort of thing.oh agreed; even more, if it were up to me, I'd just let the PC find lichdom (as that is basically why it exists: wizards who are looking for immortality)


Regarding the 'gate to clones, kill them' trick... That's actually easy to get around. You can block planar travel in a wide area around where 'you,' AKA your original body is lying comatose. Then if someone tries to gate towards your name, they just get blocked, since the gate will try to appear 'in the immediate vicinity' of the person named. Meanwhile, your possesed simulacrum can run a few thousand feet before plane shifting away, so it isn't as though you've imprisoned yourself.I thought about that as well - but the thing is that enemies won't go "Gate doesn't work. Oh, well, lets just forget the whole thing". Plane shift & the party actually is better here, because you appear in or near the destination.

... and it leaves your 9th level spellslot open to meteor swarm the entire set-up to Kingdom Come :smallbiggrin: .

[strangebloke]

to be fair - I think it's more luck(y for me) then anything else that it's not mentioned. This is typically something quickly overwlooked when the writers pen down all the rules.

(this obviously implies the sheer sillyness of holding on to strict RAW as though it's divine law, but hey ... it works for some people)
Love it or hate it, the silliness is 90% of what we discuss on here. The reason that the 5e forum is so barren relative to the 3.5 forum is at least partially because 3.5 has so much more silly stuff to laugh about.

Well, that, and the granularity of the rules, the number of source books, and the ridiculous disparity in power levels just make optimizers giddy.




However, that's not really the "discussion".
A simulacrum of a spellcaster can't learn spells. that's undisputed.
And when you magic jar that simulacrum, you don't gain extra abilities (seeing as you replace a level X wizard with a level X wizard).
Magic Jar gives you all the game statistics of the source creature - the "debate" is, if the 'can't learn spells' is a game statistic.


Well, I'd argue that there's a question of scope, since you sort of do gain extra abilities... This is a very fine point and one that we're not likely to gain consensus on.

And yes its a silly discussion, but these are always silly discussions. RAW is not a hammer you beat your DM with. Rule 0 is OP.


I thought about that as well - but the thing is that enemies won't go "Gate doesn't work. Oh, well, lets just forget the whole thing". Plane shift & the party actually is better here, because you appear in or near the destination.

... and it leaves your 9th level spellslot open to meteor swarm the entire set-up to Kingdom Come :smallbiggrin: .

You need to specify the location for the plane shift, though, which would be, I think, somewhat difficult depending on the exact nature of the 'description' that you need to provide. You're basically trying to planeshift into a bag of holding that you don't know exists. Such a use of planeshift would be pretty ridiculous, IMO, since you could basically just say "I planeshift to wherever it is that the next piece of the seven part rod is."

But then, so is this whole concept. :P

[qube]

Well, I'd argue that there's a question of scope, since you sort of do gain extra abilities... Yes, but I don't mean in amount - but in new ones. The Simularicum's "can't cast spells" overwrites all of it's wizard abilities.
To gain the exact same wizard abilities, and then turn around and say 'oh, but we don't know how "can't cast spells" interacts with game statistics that allow you to cast spells " ... is kind of silly.

As RAW doesn't make a distinction when or from where a game statistic comes, we do know how they interact: we just seen it.

You however, make a good point: considering that the spells a Simularicum knows are a game statistic of his, he also retains them; so when you magic jar into one, you not only retain your class abilities (your own spell list), you gain the Simularicum's game stats (which are yours)


Familiar
if needed, rest to refresh spells (8 hours)
cast Simularicum (12hours)
cast Clone (1hours)
rest to refresh spells (8 hours)
cast Magic Jar
Magic Jar into Simularicum
{{ when you are reduced to zero hp, you turn into an inanimate object (not the same as dying) }}
{{ when you are dispelled, Simularicum stops to exist. again, not the same as dying }}
plane shift back to the party
{{adventure time}}
after 120 your clone is ready
familiar sees/knows this (it it can count to 120) and destroys the jar
your soul leaves the Simularicum (or where if ti was haning around) and it dies, ergo you go to the clone
Goto step 2.


Gain: Immortality (with a return trip of at most 120 days, spending ~ 22 to 30 hours per 120 days on resetting)
Gain: you have twice your spell list instead of once (minus one 6th & two 7th spellslots)
your Simularicum body, will not gain the Simularicum spellslot
you will have cast magic jar, & plane shift, so your second spell list will not have those spells
Loss: ability to regain expended spellslots



You're basically trying to planeshift into a bag of holding that you don't know exists.Actually, that's why you first cast divinations - to know what is going on.

[Zalabim]

Plane Shift also requires a tuning fork attuned to the destination. For "the inside of a mirror of life trapping" that's either going to be something to do with mirrors, or something to do with the simulacrum that was made in it. Grab a bucket, I need this water.

Also, about dispelling, Magic Jar is a lower level than Simulacrum so it's possible to dispel Magic Jar and leave the simulacrum intact, easily so if you use something to explicitly end possession instead of just a blanket dispel magic. A creature should die without its soul, but that leads us back to our first question. Either way, this could be useful if you want to study one.

Honestly, a god that sends an avatar into the world every 120 days or so is working pretty fast, as god-things go, but it's a shame the avatar is only a simulacrum.

[HolyDraconus]

Wow. So many rude people.

[No brains]

Wow. So many rude people.

I hope I wasn't too rude in my response. It wasn't quite on topic, but I felt that I was embracing the fun of OP's idea. I was just hoping to bring some extra weird fun into the mix- I'm certain if this happened in a game, a bard might try to use Persuasion on this character. :smallbiggrin: I didn't mean to rain on the parade.

Even if it doesn't work perfectly by RAW, I still think we have an interesting concept that hearkens back to the 3.5 OP-FU BS of yore. That's part of what drew me in when I was younger.

[HolyDraconus]

I hope I wasn't too rude in my response. It wasn't quite on topic, but I felt that I was embracing the fun of OP's idea. I was just hoping to bring some extra weird fun into the mix- I'm certain if this happened in a game, a bard might try to use Persuasion on this character. :smallbiggrin: I didn't mean to rain on the parade.

Even if it doesn't work perfectly by RAW, I still think we have an interesting concept that hearkens back to the 3.5 OP-FU BS of yore. That's part of what drew me in when I was younger.

I understand what you mean there. But nothing is being helped with both sides calling the other stupid.

[Blacky the Blackball]

Oh, FYI:

How it would work, according to strickt RAW


Familiar
cast Simularicum (12hours)
cast Clone (1hours)
rest to refresh spells (8 hours)
cast Magic Jar
Magic Jar into Simularicum
{{ when you are reduced to zero hp, you turn into an inanimate object (not the same as dying) }}
{{ when you are dispelled, Simularicum stops to exist. again, not the same as dying }}
plane shift back to the party
{{adventure time}}
after 120 your clone is ready
familiar sees/knows this (it it can count to 120) and destroys the jar
your soul leaves the Simularicum (or where if ti was haning around) and it dies, ergo you go to the clone
Goto step 2.

Gain: Immortality (with a return trip of at most 120 days, spending ~ 22 hours per 120 days on resetting) --
Loss: ability to regain expended spellslots (6 & 7 spellslot used)

Okay, but this is significantly more complex than the following:

cast Clone
Wait 120 days for it to be ready
{{adventure time}}
If you die, you wake up in your Clone body
Goto step 1

What does the simulacrum version give you that simply using clone doesn't? Both protect you from death while adventuring, and both have a 120 day turn-around. Neither protects you from having your soul trapped. And simply using the clone spell on its own means that you can regain expended spell slots while adventuring. And you can still have your clone vat inside a mirror in a demiplane if you don't want to age.

So what does the simulacrum version give you that the simpler version doesn't; to make it worth the extra effort and the loss of spell recovery?

[90sMusic]

I wouldn't bother with the simulacrum stuff. But mass producing clones is a good idea. Could have 200 of them just sitting around waiting to be used. if cast by using Wish, you don't need any of the components, it all just appears ready to roll as you cast the spell and wish creates whatever you need.

You could die every single day and have another clone ready to go, as long as you made a new clone before you left each time, you could die every day forever if you needed to. Not that you'd want to.

You could also turn your little mirror plane into a heaven for yourself honestly. Just cast Mirage Arcana to change this hazy, empty void into a heavenly paradise of green grass fields, a giant throne made of gold or platinum for your soulless body to sit upon while you're off adventuring, and so on. Could make it any kind of place you wanted with that spell, including adding structures to it and they are really there and tactile, not pass-through illusions so...

In addition to this, you could use finger of death on your own developed clones, instantly killing them and raising them as zombies permanently under your control. You can then use true polymorph to change these zombies into very basic humanoids. If you want your heaven of 100 virgins, you got it. Or if you want a bunch of pseudo angels who just worship you all day long and wait on you on hand and foot, they would. Part of True Polymorph is that it changes the mental statistics of the creature so they would no longer be mindless automatons and would be able to think and feel and learn, however, they are still bound to permanently live under your control and follow your commands as per Finger of Death.

And honestly, gods never really DO anything anyway except sit in their private little planes being worshiped all the time. There is always some kind of BS lore justification for gods sitting on their hands and never doing anything because you couldn't have adventures to save the world if gods just snapped their fingers to fix things, so really you'd have all the pros of being a god with none of the cons. You could continue to go out and adventure and so on.