Let's Break Something: Swapping Bonus Spell Lists

[jaappleton]

Land Druids, Clerics, Paladins, Warlocks... Maybe I'm missing one or two.

They all get access to special spells, considered part of their class spell list even if they typically can't be found on their class spell list.

I want to do an exercise.

Let's swap the bonus spell lists. Any bonus spell list you want, swapped with another bonus spell list.

Mountain Druid's bonus spells on a Treachery Paladin, for example. Even swap spell lists within your class; Vengeance Paladin spells on a Devotion Paladin.

Does it ACTUALLY break anything? What's it do that it can't before? Does this allow a new strategy or build that wasn't available prior?

[Aett_Thorn]

A Cleric with access to the GOO Warlock spell list would just be fun. Since you can't usually get a Cleric with illusions and dominate person spells. Plus, it would be fun to worship an "old god" that nobody understands anymore.

[lunaticfringe]

I actually do this quite often. Fire Land Druid gets Firebolt as a 3rd Cantrip and the Light Cleric Bonus Spells. I away from my notebook but there are others. Like an Ancients Pally of Thor Smiting Lightning and getting some Tempest Bonus spells.

[DracoKnight]

Like an Ancients Pally of Thor Smiting Lightning and getting some Tempest Bonus spells.

I've actually played that character in a One shot and it was hella fun. I want to play him again at some point, in a long running campaign. Tempest spells on an Ancients Pally just feels right :smallbiggrin:

[Spiritchaser]

The Hexblade list on a cleric would be fun (probably war, but... Whatever)

[Lord Il Palazzo]

"Break" might be a strong word, but I'd love to run a Warlock with the Death Cleric spell list. Even at mid-tier levels, there's shenanigans to be had with two castings of Animate Dead per short rest, especially as you start getting more or higher level spell slots. Raising ten minions per short rest at level 9 or fifteen at level 11 seems like fun.

[jaappleton]

Forge Cleric and Hexblade both get Shield on their lists.

[lunaticfringe]

I've actually played that character in a One shot and it was hella fun. I want to play him again at some point, in a long running campaign. Tempest spells on an Ancients Pally just feels right :smallbiggrin:

Aye, my player had a ton of fun. Good times all around.

[Vaz]

Clerics with Paladin of Conquest is nice to make a really good Thorns Build.

[Millstone85]

Mountain Druid's bonus spells on a Treachery Paladin, for example.

Mountain


Druid Level
Circle Spells


3rd
spider climb, spike growth


5th
lightning bolt, meld into stone


7th
stone shape, stoneskin


9th
passwall, wall of stone



Treachery


Paladin Level
Oath Spells


3rd
charm person, expeditious retreat


5th
invisibility, mirror image


9th
gaseous form, haste


13th
confusion, greater invisibility


17th
dominate person, passwall



So, land druids and paladins do not get their bonus spells at the same class levels, and land druids do not get bonus 1st-level spells...

[jaappleton]

Mountain


Druid Level
Circle Spells


3rd
spider climb, spike growth


5th
lightning bolt, meld into stone


7th
stone shape, stoneskin


9th
passwall, wall of stone



Treachery


Paladin Level
Oath Spells


3rd
charm person, expeditious retreat


5th
invisibility, mirror image


9th
gaseous form, haste


13th
confusion, greater invisibility


17th
dominate person, passwall



So, land druids and paladins do not get their bonus spells at the same class levels, and land druids do not get bonus 1st-level spells...

I think you're taking it slightly too literally. They both get up to 5th level bonus spells. You're right on Druids not getting 1st level bonus spells, that's something I overlooked.

[Naanomi]

A warlock with Animate Dead can get silly pretty quickly so... Death Cleric on a Warlock?

[jaappleton]

After thinking about it awhile, here's some I came up with:

Redemption Paladin's spells on almost Any Cleric
It's a loaded spell list. Highlights include Shield, Hold Person, Counterspell, Hypnotic Pattern, Resilient Sphere, Stoneskin, Hold Monster, and Wall of Force. Nearly all of these aren't on the generic Cleric list. Shield and Counterspell alone would make it pretty great, but adding Wall of Force is some tasty icing on the cake, especially when putting them on a full Caster.

War Domain on Vengeance or Devotion Paladin
More thematic than anything, this is an excellent way to make a member of the Belmont Clan from Castlevania. Especially true of Richter Belmont, where you can treat many of the spells as his Item Crashes or Subweapons. Spiritual Weapon is the boomerang cross, and Flame Strike for its Item Crash. Divine Favor to simulate coating his whip in flame to enhance his attacks.

[Drackolus]

Forge Cleric and Hexblade both get Shield on their lists.
As do redemption paladins.
Nobody gets aura of vitality afaik, but that would be extremely powerful on a life cleric. Nor is goodberry, but that's really only good on 1st level slots anyway since prayer of healing is so much stronger, so it wouldn't be as overbearing. Still potent, though.
The life cleric list on a warlock would be strong. Excellent on a paladin or druid too. It's really just a great list. Bless, spiritual weapon, revivify... It's the whole package.

[jaappleton]

As do redemption paladins.
Nobody gets aura of vitality afaik, but that would be extremely powerful on a life cleric. Nor is goodberry, but that's really only good on 1st level slots anyway since prayer of healing is so much stronger, so it wouldn't be as overbearing. Still potent, though.
The life cleric list on a warlock would be strong. Excellent on a paladin or druid too. It's really just a great list. Bless, spiritual weapon, revivify... It's the whole package.

Both Redemption Paladin and Life Cleric have completely loaded spell lists. LC's is mostly already on the generic Cleric list, but moving it to another class can alter things quite a bit, as you mentioned with Warlock style casting.

I think a great one over all would be Zeal Domain (from Plane Shift: Amonkhet) on a Hexblade. You get Haste, Fireball, Destructive Wave and Flame Strike. Haste to get the most out of your melee options, with a ton of AoE options. And all your attacks and spells can be purely Charisma based.

[Finger6842]

You break one of the main Bard features, Magical Secrets, essentially giving a more powerful version to another class entirely don't you?

[lunaticfringe]

You break one of the main Bard features, Magical Secrets, essentially giving a more powerful version to another class entirely don't you?

Not really. It's not being able to select any spell you want, it's customizing a few Bonus Spells to fit a theme or concept or make you slightly better at your Role/Job. As a DM I can Veto obvious cheesmongering because this is all Caveat.

That in now way makes Magical Secrets any less awesome. I can't nix that (well I could but I'm not a ****) it's a Class Feature.

[jaappleton]

Not really. It's not being able to select any spell you want, it's customizing a few Bonus Spells to fit a theme or concept or make you slightly better at your Role/Job. As a DM I can Veto obvious cheesmongering because this is all Caveat.

That in now way makes Magical Secrets any less awesome. I can't nix that (well I could but I'm not a ****) it's a Class Feature.

Agreed!

If my Paladin follows the 'Oath of the Eternal Flame', then mixing Devotion's abilities with Light Domain Cleric fits together very well.

Swapping bonus spell lists helps you be much more thematic with a character concept.

I haven't really found anything that's actually broken, though.

[Naanomi]

I haven't really found anything that's actually broken, though.
Warlock, with Death Domain Cleric spells... when the rest of her party Long Rests, she takes 7-8 consecutive short rests; using her scaling level Spell slots to create a vast army of skeletons each day while leaving the last 'rest' to keep her Spell slots for other things in the actual adventuring day

[Aett_Thorn]

Warlock, with Death Domain Cleric spells... when the rest of her party Long Rests, she takes 7-8 consecutive short rests; using her scaling level Spell slots to create a vast army of skeletons each day while leaving the last 'rest' to keep her Spell slots for other things in the actual adventuring day

Wouldn't the Warlock acrue Exhaustion levels by doing that, though?

[Naanomi]

Wouldn't the Warlock acrue Exhaustion levels by doing that, though?
I don't see anything in the book about that; but if the GM house-rules that in; then just be an elf and still do it half the night after you get your four hours meditation

EDIT: there is also a UA invocation that makes it so you don't need sleep ever

[jaappleton]

I don't see anything in the book about that; but if the GM house-rules that in; then just be an elf and still do it half the night after you get your four hours meditation

EDIT: there is also a UA invocation that makes it so you don't need sleep ever

Warforged don't need to eat, sleep or breathe but still have to enter a slight rest state (though they remain alert).

[SharkForce]

i don't think it would break things most of the time. there are probably a few examples that would be extremely strong, however, or which might give one class such a substantial part of what makes another class feel different, thus resulting in something that might not be obectively too strong but which somewhat invalidates an entire other class...

generally speaking, i'd be more in favour of just tweaking specific lists to fit specific ideas as needed rather than directly lifting bonus lists though.

[Finger6842]

So are you talking about a complete list swap or the ability to cherry pick from both lists?

What will stop people from taking a full plate martial class like Paladin who then uses a full caster class like the Wizards bonus list?

Will this include Racial lists like a wild elf taking dark elf spells?

I can see plenty of mechanical advantages they will likely be justified thematically but I don't see anything broken about it. For some reason it feels like it could unbalance a few things but I'm not sure what though.

[jaappleton]

So are you talking about a complete list swap or the ability to cherry pick from both lists?

What will stop people from taking a full plate martial class like Paladin who then uses a full caster class like the Wizards bonus list?

Will this include Racial lists like a wild elf taking dark elf spells?

I can see plenty of mechanical advantages they will likely be justified thematically but I don't see anything broken about it. For some reason it feels like it could unbalance a few things but I'm not sure what though.

Strictly bonus spell list swap.

For example, taking the Tempest Cleric bonus spell list, like how they get access to Shatter and Call Lightning, and slapping it on an Ancients Paladin, instead of using the Ancients Paladins list.

[Vaz]

So are you talking about a complete list swap or the ability to cherry pick from both lists?

What will stop people from taking a full plate martial class like Paladin who then uses a full caster class like the Wizards bonus list?

Will this include Racial lists like a wild elf taking dark elf spells?

I can see plenty of mechanical advantages they will likely be justified thematically but I don't see anything broken about it. For some reason it feels like it could unbalance a few things but I'm not sure what though.

That's... Not what the thread is about, though?

[lunaticfringe]

Ancients Pally list on a more melee focused Nature Cleric.

Treachery Spells for Trickery Clerics.

Revised Conquest for an Arcana Cleric. Pull Spells from the Warlock list for the class features instead the Wizard list for a Witchy Arcana Deity like Hecate. Might be a better list fit somewhere.

[Arkhios]

Land Druids, Clerics, Paladins, Warlocks... Maybe I'm missing one or two.

They all get access to special spells, considered part of their class spell list even if they typically can't be found on their class spell list.

I want to do an exercise.

Let's swap the bonus spell lists. Any bonus spell list you want, swapped with another bonus spell list.

Mountain Druid's bonus spells on a Treachery Paladin, for example. Even swap spell lists within your class; Vengeance Paladin spells on a Devotion Paladin.

Does it ACTUALLY break anything? What's it do that it can't before? Does this allow a new strategy or build that wasn't available prior?

I mulled over this idea a while back with an idea of a variant paladin oath which was more dedicated to the service of a deity, and thus would alter the selection of one's oath spells.

Basically every oath (and their features) would remain unchanged except for the bonus spells, which would be replaced with a chosen domain's spells.

In all honesty I thought the swap was far from being unfair or unbalanced, because come on, aren't the spells in themselves already supposed to be balanced by their given spell levels? Why would this kind of swap change the spells' individual power in any way?

Imho, I think it's fine.

[Naanomi]

In all honesty I thought the swap was far from being unfair or unbalanced, because come on, aren't the spells in themselves already supposed to be balanced by their given spell levels? Why would this kind of swap change the spells' individual power in any way.
Spell lists are purposefully limited, so even at the same level it isn't exactly true that any swap would be without power changes. For example, Paladins have little ability to handle large crowds, they don't have a lot of AoE offense (Ancients gets a little bit still not much)... giving them a bunch of AoE bonus spells (while perhaps not changing he raw power is the class) gives them a lot of versatility to cover that weakness they wouldn't otherwise have.

Also, especially concerning the Warlock, some spells (Animate Dead) become very strong on the short-rest mechanic...