When Illusions Beat Reality (Spoilerish)

[Holy_Knight]

So Redcloak has ordered that a new summoned monster, as well as a throng of zombies, be sent to fight the "celestial lion". This will, of course, reveal the illusion, thus leading to dire consequences for our heroes, right? Well, maybe. But consider:

--The "lion" is standing on the edge of the dock.
--Redcloak specifically asked for a land-based monster.
--Zombies aren't known for their great swimming ability.

So maybe Team Evil will send their monster and zombies charging at their celestial opponent--only to go right through it, fall off the edge of the dock, and drown/be unable to get back up/be mangled by Lien's shark.

Sure, the illusion is useless now, but Redcloak has just wasted more resources that could have been used to fight the real defenders, in effect taking some needless losses. So the good guys may end up not being so much worse off after all. Thoughts?

[Yeril]

Where do you get that idea? zombies are Better at swimming than most people, due to the +2 strength.

Same with people thinking old people can't hear, everyone knows your wisdom increases with age.

[RAGE KING!]

actually it doesnt. in the phb anyways.

but the guys will charge up to the lion, and then attack it, they wont try to charge through it...

[Chronos]

Where do you get that idea? zombies are Better at swimming than most people, due to the +2 strength.But on the other hand, they don't have any skill ranks, and I'm not sure if they can even attempt skill checks untrained. If you can't make a Swim skill check, then you can't swim, no matter what your strength modifier, natural buoyancy, or any other factors.

[Kurald Galain]

On the other other hand, zombies don't need to breathe. I'm sure most of you have seen the first Pirates of the Caribbean movie?

[Alysar]

What would happen if you created a zombie from some aquatic racial variant?

[Surfing HalfOrc]

Tossing in a "The Savage Tide Adventure Path" spoiler:

The zombies under Parrot Island won't follow the characters into the deeper water for fear of drowning. They are too dumb to realise they CAN'T drown...

[Green Bean]

But on the other hand, they don't have any skill ranks, and I'm not sure if they can even attempt skill checks untrained. If you can't make a Swim skill check, then you can't swim, no matter what your strength modifier, natural buoyancy, or any other factors.

In 3.5, some skills are 'trained only', and some aren't. Swim can be used untrained, at least according to the SRD. So zombies would be slightly better swimmers than soldiers

[Stupid Human]

Humans are better than zombies at swimming for one simple reason, 2 move actions per round.

[RobbyPants]

It might be a nice trick to get a few chargers to fall in, but all in all, the illusion has served its purpose. The only reason Elan created the first one was to hold the hobgoblins at bay while the other heroes fought the fiendish octopus. With it now dead, Hinjo (well, maybe :smalltongue:), Durkon, and Lien can now focus on the hobgobilins.

[chibibar]

illusions are interesting thing. In D&D illusion actually does damage as long the person believes in it. A great illusionist can do a lot of things if manage they know how to manage their craft well.

Since Elan is being assist by V in terms of controlling illusion, I'm they will do fine.

Edit: Oooo.... I just had an evil thought.... Lien is VERY powerful in the water (with the shark) anyone falling into water would be almost instant death (hence charging the lion either way would benefit Lien's position of attack)

[BobTheDog]

illusions are interesting thing. In D&D illusion actually does damage as long the person believes in it. A great illusionist can do a lot of things if manage they know how to manage their craft well.

From the SRD:


Because figments and glamers (see below) are unreal, they cannot produce real effects the way that other types of illusions can. They cannot cause damage to objects or creatures, support weight, provide nutrition, or provide protection from the elements. Consequently, these spells are useful for confounding or delaying foes, but useless for attacking them directly.

So, unless it's a shadow illusion, it won't hurt anybody. There is no such thing as illusory damage in D&D.

[kpenguin]

I believe that in AD&D, illusions could hurt if you believed. In fact, there were mechanics for dying from shock.

[chibibar]

I believe that in AD&D, illusions could hurt if you believed. In fact, there were mechanics for dying from shock.

bingo! that is true. If a person believe they are hurt, you can be hurt.

[Thanatos 51-50]

That is absolutely true, even in real-life.
Its called a psycho-sematic condition. Thats how Placebo works!
Unfortunatly, you can aslo die from a psycho-semtaic condition.

[Guildorn Tanaleth]

That is absolutely true, even in real-life.
Its called a psycho-sematic condition. Thats how Placebo works!
Unfortunatly, you can aslo die from a psycho-semtaic condition.

Unless you succeed on a Wisdom check.

[Jeriah]

Unless you succeed on a Wisdom check.

And zombies aren't particularly well known for their high Wis. The zombie template forces the zombie to have a Wis of 10, and I doubt Red Cloak is going to have his clerics wasting spells on Owl’s Wisdom.

[Zel]

Protection from Good?

[The Extinguisher]

Note to self: Train illusions to killing level.

Also, I never got why Swimming used strength. Shouldn't it use constitution? Or dexterity? Or a combonation of all three?
Doesn't make any sense.

Which also raises the question, if something made of concrete, iron and plutonium had a high enough strength, they could feasibly be able to swim anywhere, right?

[Yeril]

Humans are better than zombies at swimming for one simple reason, 2 move actions per round.

Humans are better faster than zombies at swimming for one simple reason, 2 move actions per round.

Not better.

[Yeril]

Note to self: Train illusions to killing level.

Also, I never got why Swimming used strength. Shouldn't it use constitution? Or dexterity? Or a combonation of all three?
Doesn't make any sense.

Which also raises the question, if something made of concrete, iron and plutonium had a high enough strength, they could feasibly be able to swim anywhere, right?


Golems made of Stone, Metal, ect. are issued a check penalty equal to there natural armour.

Not realy I just wanted to sound smart :D

[Alex Warlorn]

If they BULLRUSH the Lion, they'll go right through it into the water behind it, with the holy shark waiting with it's mouth open!

[mockingbyrd7]

I just realized something: what if the lion is real and Elan doesn't realize it?? He actually is capable of casting the spell, and he could have accidentally cast the real thing? That would be a surprise.

[Tor the Fallen]

On the other other hand, zombies don't need to breathe. I'm sure most of you have seen the first Pirates of the Caribbean movie?

Or Land of the Dead.

[kpenguin]

I just realized something: what if the lion is real and Elan doesn't realize it?? He actually is capable of casting the spell, and he could have accidentally cast the real thing? That would be a surprise.

That lion is semi-transparent, so I don't think that its real.

[Hell Puppi]

Or Land of the Dead.

In my vast knowledge of all things zombie-related, I've never known a zombie that had to breathe.
I mean in all likelihood there may be a type or 2, but i can't think of any.

[Quikngruvn]

That lion is semi-transparent, so I don't think that its real.

Sure it is, it's just ethereal.

(OK, not really. I don't think Elan knows the meaning of the word.)


Note to self: Train illusions to killing level.


Heh. You only have to be a 7th level Wizard to cast Phantasmal Killer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/phantasmalKiller.htm).

[Goofy]

In my vast knowledge of all things zombie-related, I've never known a zombie that had to breathe.
I mean in all likelihood there may be a type or 2, but i can't think of any.
28 [Days|Weeks] Later. Though they're not normal zombies.

[Fighteer]

Zombies and most other undead are immune to mind-affecting effects, so phantasmal killer would not work on them. However, since zombies are mindless anyway, they would attempt to attack the illusion if told to regardless of whether their attacks had any noticeable effect. I don't recall offhand how non-mindless undead interact with illusions; I will have to look at the SRD and/or D&D rulebooks when I get home.

Certain illusion spells, such as shadow magic, can cause damage since they have quasi-real properties. Illusion spells with a mind-affecting component (phantasms) can cause damage or death because they directly interact with their targets' minds. However, pure illusions (I forget the terminology) have no reality and cannot cause damage no matter how convincing they are.

All this is in the standard rulebooks.

[Hiest, monkey]

I bet that V is about to make elan conjure up a Xykon illusion. Then order redcloak to get him something to eat. Oh that argument would be funny. Especially if while they were arguing the boat just floated away.

[bluish_wolf]

Zombies and most other undead are immune to mind-affecting effects, so phantasmal killer would not work on them. However, since zombies are mindless anyway, they would attempt to attack the illusion if told to regardless of whether their attacks had any noticeable effect. I don't recall offhand how non-mindless undead interact with illusions; I will have to look at the SRD and/or D&D rulebooks when I get home.

You see illusions because the wizard is playing tricks on your mind. If you are mindless, you don't see the illusion. They wouldn't pay attention to it.

Non-mindless undead are generally not immune to illusions. If they are, it's not because they are undead.

[Fighteer]

You see illusions because the wizard is playing tricks on your mind. If you are mindless, you don't see the illusion. They wouldn't pay attention to it.

Non-mindless undead are generally not immune to illusions. If they are, it's not because they are undead.
There are five types of illusions defined in the SRD. Of those, only patterns and phantasms are automatically considered mind-affecting. Figments (create the image or sound of something that doesn't exist) and glamers (alter the appearance or sound of something) create an effect that is independent from the person or creature experiencing it. There is no RAW reason why undead (mindless or otherwise) would be immune to them unless they have special qualities specifically stating otherwise. In fact, the SRD specifically discusses which types of illusions undead and mindless creatures are immune to, and figments/glamers are not on the list.

Shadow-type illusions do create real effects, but we aren't concerned with those for the purposes of this discussion.

[Quikngruvn]

The fact that a zombie is mindless doesn't actually grant any additional resistances:


A creature with no Intelligence score (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#intelligence) is mindless, an automaton operating on simple instincts or programmed instructions. It has immunity to mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects) and automatically fails Intelligence checks.

...

An undead creature (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#undeadType) possesses... Immunity to all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects).

So, many illusions such as the aforementioned Phantasmal Killer won't work on undead (because they're undead, not because they're mindless). Some illusions (that aren't mind-affecting) still work "on" undead, such as Invisibility (on something else), because it's a Glamer-type of Illusion. (Or, what Fighteer said.)

Oh, and zombies (and any undead) would be better swimmers than humanoids because:


A creature with no Constitution (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#constitution) cannot tire and thus can run indefinitely without tiring (unless the creature’s description says it cannot run).

...

Make a Swim (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/swim.htm) check once per round while you are in the water. Success means you may swim at up to one-half your speed (as a full-round action) or at one-quarter your speed (as a move action).

...

Undead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#undeadType) do not breathe, eat, or sleep.

So zombies can swim at one-quarter their speed, can swim indefinitely, and are in no danger from drowning. In fact, the only dangers to zombies posed by swimming are from water pressure from swimming more than a hundred feet deep (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/environment.htm#waterDangers), and from beasties with a taste for undead.

[BobTheDog]

I always consider discussing the usefulness of illusions as a waste of time, considering at 9th or 11th level about any adventuring group will have True Seeing (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/spellsTtoZ.html#true-seeing) available.


You confer on the subject the ability to see all things as they actually are. The subject sees through normal and magical darkness, notices secret doors hidden by magic, sees the exact locations of creatures or objects under blur or displacement effects, sees invisible creatures or objects normally, sees through illusions, and sees the true form of polymorphed, changed, or transmuted things. Further, the subject can focus its vision to see into the Ethereal Plane (but not into extradimensional spaces).

Talk about overpowered...

[John Campbell]

Which also raises the question, if something made of concrete, iron and plutonium had a high enough strength, they could feasibly be able to swim anywhere, right?

Yes; stone and iron golems are excellent swimmers. They're practically unable to fail Swim checks, and, being Con-less and unbreathing, they never tire and can't be drowned.

[Fighteer]

I always consider discussing the usefulness of illusions as a waste of time, considering at 9th or 11th level about any adventuring group will have True Seeing (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/spellsTtoZ.html#true-seeing) available.

Talk about overpowered...
True seeing has a duration of 1 minute per level and uses material components worth 250gp. It's hardly a spell that the average adventuring party could afford to have up all the time. For a 9th level cleric (the minimum required to cast the spell), it would cost 1,667gp to keep the spell active for one hour each day (on average) on a single target, not to mention seven 5th level spell slots. It's not an eligible spell for permanency either, and using a metamagic feat to increase the duration pushes it out of the realm of something available to a mid-level party.

So, although its effects may be quite powerful, it's not a practical spell to keep in constant use. You save it until you think you might be confronted with an illusion or other deception - fine for BBEGs but not necessarily for run of the mill encounters. Besides, if I wanted to use an illusionist as a nemesis for my PCs, I'd provide him with the means to negate divination spells, such as area of effect dispel magics or the equivalent. Heck, dispels should be a staple of any NPC caster's anti-hero arsenal, given the number of buff spells the annoying do-gooders like to run around with. :-)


Yes; stone and iron golems are excellent swimmers. They're practically unable to fail Swim checks, and, being Con-less and unbreathing, they never tire and can't be drowned.
There's a funny story from a LARP I was in once that earned me a comedy award (my one and only award from my one and only LARP). I was playing a golem who got dumped off of a dragon's back on an overseas flight. Not needing to breathe, I simply walked back to land across the ocean floor. Good times. :smallwink: