How do you throw your hands?

[n00b17]

Hey playground,

I'm looking for a RAW-legal way to turn unarmed strikes into thrown, returning weapons, and then to optimize this setup as much as possible. Warforged will likely be the race.
The ways I have so far are
1) an amulet of mighty fists with the Throwing and Returning properties.
2) Blinkback belt with Throwing spiked gauntlets and Quickdraw

The first doesn't let you full attack, since the weapons return at the start of your next turn (you have to do without hands until then). For the second, I'm not sure if you can quickdraw a spiked gauntlet.

DSP material and the Eberron pathfinder conversion are both fair game.
EDIT: Other than Eberron Conversion, looking for pathfinder stuff, not 3.5

[Vaz]

Kensai, Unarmed Strike, Throwing Enchantment. Take Bloodstorm Blade.

Congrats; you now have Rayman.

[Krazzman]

The first doesn't let you full attack, since the weapons return at the start of your next turn (you have to do without hands until then).

Then use your elbows next, shoulders next, headbutts, kicks with feet, shins, knee... invest in balance.

There is a Cleric Spell in 3.5 called Bloodwind if I remember correctly that should be what you are looking for.

[exelsisxax]

You cannot throw your hands unless your hands are detachable. Get the thing for warforged (i don't know if it's a feat or PrC thing) that lets you rocket punch, enchant the fist with returning, and you're done. Throwing doesn't work by RaW until them. AoMF won't get you anywhere.

[Psyren]

1) an amulet of mighty fists with the Throwing and Returning properties.

AoMF specifically only works with properties that can be applied to unarmed strikes. Unless you have another example somewhere else of these two being applicable to unarmed, this won't work.



2) Blinkback belt with Throwing spiked gauntlets and Quickdraw

Gauntlets are a murky area - it seems they might require a move action to put on, which would prevent you from full-attacking at range.

[upho]

Hey playground,Hullo!


I'm looking for a RAW-legal way to turn unarmed strikes into thrown, returning weapons, and then to optimize this setup as much as possible. Warforged will likely be the race.
The ways I have so far are
1) an amulet of mighty fists with the Throwing and Returning properties.
2) Blinkback belt with Throwing spiked gauntlets and Quickdraw

The first doesn't let you full attack, since the weapons return at the start of your next turn (you have to do without hands until then).Yeah, and it's almost as bad that you have to remain in the same spot until the start of your next turn in order to catch your fists gauntlets. The Returning magic weapon ability is nothing but a trap in a very large majority of cases.


For the second, I'm not sure if you can quickdraw a spiked gauntlet.Well, they are light weapons, so RAW Quick Draw + Blinkback should work fine. However, spiked gauntlets actually don't count as unarmed strikes AFAICT, regardless of the warforged's Integrated Weapon trait or the spiked gauntlets allowing you to use your hands while wielding them. But I believe a normal gauntlet (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment/weapons/weapon-descriptions/gauntlet/), cestus (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment/weapons/weapon-descriptions/cestus/) or brass knuckles (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment/weapons/weapon-descriptions/brass-knuckles/) can both be used with Quick Draw + Blinkback and count as both unarmed strikes and manufactured weapon attacks according to RAW. This has the added benefit of making your weapon enchantments quite a bit cheaper in mid/late levels, since both the enchantments of the weapons themselves and those of an Amulet of Mighty Fists can be used simultaneously to enhance your attacks.

As for other options, I'd definitely consider the Powerful Throw feat from Akashic Mysteries:
Powerful Throw
You can leverage your great strength to control the flight of your thrown weapons.
Prerequisites: Strength 15, base attack bonus +1, Power Attack.
Benefit: You may use your Strength modifier in place of your Dexterity modifier for your attack rolls when making a ranged attack with thrown weapons. You may also use the Power Attack feat instead of the Deadly Aim feat when attacking with thrown weapons.
Normal: Power Attack cannot be used with thrown weapons, and Dexterity, not Strength, is used for ranged attack rolls.This not only allows you to skip Weapon Finesse or a Belt of Mighty Hurling, but also allows you to use stuff dependent on Power Attack when throwing your fists. So with a pumped up Str and for example Cornugon Smash, Intimidating Prowess and a few ranks in Intimidate, you can be a pretty darn effective damage dealer and debuffer, switching seamlessly between melee and ranged. Add Soulless Gaze and Black Seraph Annihilation if you wanna go totally bananas in later levels. (Though this is not recommended unless you play in very high-op game, otherwise your GM is likely to show you what a Powerful Throw is in RL, using the CRB as the weapon and you as the target...)

When it comes to disciplines, I'd primarily go for Fool's Errand (especially if Str based), Broken Blade (watch for the coming errata) and Solar Wind and/or Tempest Gale (if Dex based), plus perhaps a few Thrashing Dragon maneuvers. You'll probably need to choose your base class and dips largely based on what bonus feats you can get, as you're bound to be very feat starved.

Oh, and speaking of feat starved, you or an ally might find a way to use a wand of quick throwing (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/q/quick-throwing/), which can make Quick Draw less vital (maybe combine this with a fitting Bloody-Knuckled Rowdy Primalist bloodrager dip and the Cha-saving racial trait?). And don't forget about the Training Weapon (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons/magic-weapon-special-abilities/training/) and that you effectively have up to three simultaneously active "magic weapon slots" available for it!

Hope this might help!


DSP material and the Eberron pathfinder conversion are both fair game.Are you referring to this conversion (http://pf-eberron.wikidot.com/)? Seems decent enough.


Then use your elbows next, shoulders next, headbutts, kicks with feet, shins, knee... invest in balance.

There is a Cleric Spell in 3.5 called Bloodwind if I remember correctly that should be what you are looking for.Note the thread's tag and that the OP explicitly requests PF options only. None of these suggestions are applicable - the first doesn't work as the warforged cannot have more than two integrated weapons which explicitly only replaces hands (and balance is not a skill in PF), and the second is a spell which doesn't exist in PF.

[Grod_The_Giant]

How do I throw my hands?

In the air. Like I just don't care.



... I'll see myself out.

[Manyasone]

How do I throw my hands?

In the air. Like I just don't care.



... I'll see myself out.

Well. That made me lol

[Hackulator]

like this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9y7HHPjBUek

[Psyren]

I thought you'd link this instead:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVfv1YctCLg

[Hackulator]

I thought you'd link this instead:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVfv1YctCLg

This is more my speed

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QSxrF5mU9og

[Icewraith]

Throw Hands
Bard Spell Level 2
Multiple Schools

The caster selects one of the following effects when they cast this spell.

1: Activate any Bardic Music effect available to the caster as if they had spent a use of the Bardic Music Ability. The spell also fears insects (will negates) and insect swarms within 20 ft. Enchantment.
They're playin' my song, the butterflies fly away
2: Compel one target to release whatever they are holding with their hands. Shields, locked gauntlets, and other items literally strapped to the forearms are not released. Mind-affecting, will negates. Climbing creatures may instead make a reflex save to regain their handholds (or climbing rope) and avoid falling. Enchantment.
Ay-o, gotta let go.
3: One living creature within 30 feet may use unarmed strikes as if they were throwing returning weapons with which they are proficient. Concentration duration. Transmutation. Will negates (harmless).
Literally throw hands.
4: One living creature within 30 feet is nauseated for one round and takes 4d6 damage, then is incapacitated for one round as they vomit copies of either theirs or the caster's hands. This effect requires a 3rd-level spell slot. Fort negates. The hands evaporate one round after they appear. Necromancy.
Literally throw up hands.
5: User may use Open Lock, Sleight of Hand, and/or Disable Device with a range of 15 feet if they are proficient in those skills. Concentration. Conjuration (force).

6: Duplicate a Bigby's Hand spell up to one spell level lower than the spell slot used to cast this spell (minimum second).
In Soviet Russia, hand throws you!

[Krazzman]

Note the thread's tag and that the OP explicitly requests PF options only. None of these suggestions are applicable - the first doesn't work as the warforged cannot have more than two integrated weapons which explicitly only replaces hands (and balance is not a skill in PF), and the second is a spell which doesn't exist in PF.

Note the edit. Seriously.

When I answered he only said 3rd party was ok which that 3.5 spell would have been. Additionally he is using a Warforged. Not an Android but a Warforged. Which last time I checked aren't first party material either.

And the first part was a joke... one that flew right over your head apparently.

Back at op: with an integrated weapon and the sharding property you could have more luck.

[upho]

How do I throw my hands?

In the air. Like I just don't care.



... I'll see myself out.Hey! Dude, you can't make such an awesome entrance and then simply leave, leaving us all hanging in the air (with your hands) waiting for more! That's just mean. But I guess you just don't care. :smallmad:


like this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9y7HHPjBUek


I thought you'd link this instead:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVfv1YctCLgHuh. I thought you'd combine them both. With a Bruce Lee wannabee satire monk. And crappier music. Like this. (https://youtu.be/Ga_kjpId26A) (Doesn't seem to be very warforged though. Maybe one of those fancy prototypes...)

[Vaz]

This is more my speed

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QSxrF5mU9og

Proof not all old rap was good rap. Wow.

[upho]

Note the edit. Seriously.

When I answered he only said 3rd party was ok which that 3.5 spell would have been. Additionally he is using a Warforged. Not an Android but a Warforged. Which last time I checked aren't first party material either.Ah, yes, I can see why you replied as you did then. My bad.


And the first part was a joke... one that flew right over your head apparently.Yes, it did. Let's just say I've seen too many posts with similar suggestions which I believed to be jokes (some of them quite fun), but which turned out to be absolutely serious. Unless I'm already pretty familiar with the poster, on these boards it seems I can rarely tell... :smallredface:

[upho]

AoMF specifically only works with properties that can be applied to unarmed strikes. Unless you have another example somewhere else of these two being applicable to unarmed, this won't work.Yep, neither would work on an AoMF, a fact which doesn't matter for Returning (trap) but may be important in the case of Throwing. But RAW, both are applicable to a magic cestus, bronze knuckle or similar weapon which also counts as an unarmed strike. Which I assume will work just fine when combined with the warforged's Integrated Weapon trait and applying Throw Anything or Throwing Weapon to the manufactured weapon.


Gauntlets are a murky area - it seems they might require a move action to put on, which would prevent you from full-attacking at range.Indeed. And if the OP uses the PF conversion of the warforged I linked to in my previous post and has the Integrated Weapon racial trait, it doesn't exactly get any less murky. But I think this should be a non-issue if throwing a "manufactured-AND-unarmed-strike-combo" weapon. The relevant passage in the rules I assume the OP uses is poorly written, but says (my emphasis):

"If it is a throwing weapon then he may detach and reattach the limb freely..."

What the bold part actually means is apparently up to the player and GM to decipher and decide as best they can. :smallamused: But I'd guess the RAI in this context is the mechanical equivalent of:

"...then he may detach the limb as part of making a ranged attack with the weapon and reattach it as part of the action taken to draw, pick up or catch the weapon"

Also, the author of the conversion summarizes the significant changes made to the warforged from the 3.5 version as: "Warforged can have any kind of plating they want, or none at all. Also rocket fists." And the only options I can find which could make this possible is the above.

[Bohandas]

The graft weapon power might work

Also, being some kind of skeletal undead might help

[icefractal]

When it's come up before, I've ruled that putting Throwing on Unarmed Strike allows you to throw your entire body (with a 10' range increment, unless you also add Distance). Seems pretty reasonable for the price.

Because I like ridiculous interactions, I also rule that putting Brilliant Energy on your body makes you incorporeal with respect to nonliving materials - dangerous to do without a means of flight. By the same logic, Metalline should allow you to turn your body into any metal, which gets kinda broken with Obdurium (hardness 30). Of course it doesn't say it makes it more flexible, so maybe you can turn into any metal but then are paralyzed until you turn back.

[upho]

When it's come up before, I've ruled that putting Throwing on Unarmed Strike allows you to throw your entire body (with a 10' range increment, unless you also add Distance). Seems pretty reasonable for the price.:smallbiggrin:

And if the player wants to make ranged full attacks with his unarmed strikes without ending up in the face of the target, I'd guess they'd only need to find/craft/buy a Blinkback belt and get the following feat:

Shock Drop Pounce (Combat)
You have perfected the art of quickly dropping and drawing up your pants, allowing you to repeatedly shock your opponents before jumping at them fist first.
Prerequisites: Improved Unarmed Strike, Quick Draw, ability to use unarmed strikes as thrown weapons
Benefit: While wearing a Blinkback belt, you can make a ranged full attack using your unarmed strikes without having to end up closer to your target. When you do, you must drop your Blinkback belt and your pants (or other clothing item covering your lower body) before each attack, perform each attack as normal while leaving the belt and your pants in the space you started, allowing you to instantly teleport back to your Blinkback belt and pants after each attack has been resolved and draw up your pants after the last attack. Enemies take a -2 penalty to AC against your attacks during this full attack (this is a fear effect).

Which they could complement with:

Dazzling Drop
What you display when jumping around without your pants is truly dazzling your opponents.
Prerequisites: Dazzling Display, Improved Unarmed Strike, Quick Draw, Shock Drop Pounce, ability to use unarmed strikes as thrown weapons
Benefit: Whenever you make a ranged full attack using the Shock Drop Pounce feat, you may use the Dazzling Display feat to demoralize all enemies within 30 feet as a free action before you make the first attack.


Because I like ridiculous interactions, I also rule that putting Brilliant Energy on your body makes you incorporeal with respect to nonliving materials - dangerous to do without a means of flight. By the same logic, Metalline should allow you to turn your body into any metal, which gets kinda broken with Obdurium (hardness 30). Of course it doesn't say it makes it more flexible, so maybe you can turn into any metal but then are paralyzed until you turn back.Fantastic! But I don't think putting Brilliant Energy on your body requires flight to be safe. I mean, gravity is an effect (primarily) caused by nonliving material and only affects corporeal stuff. Though I guess breathing might become a problem?

[Tohsaka Rin]

You know, I would normally just say 'play an Aegis/Deadly Fist Soulknife, and crank up your reach a lot', but I don't think that's quite the answer you'd hope for. Instead...

Mighty Fist of the Earth (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/m/mighty-fist-of-the-earth/).

I suppose making a custom wondrous item that's at-will, and chained might do the trick? It does use your unarmed strike damage, after all.

[Krazzman]

Ah, yes, I can see why you replied as you did then. My bad.

Yes, it did. Let's just say I've seen too many posts with similar suggestions which I believed to be jokes (some of them quite fun), but which turned out to be absolutely serious. Unless I'm already pretty familiar with the poster, on these boards it seems I can rarely tell... :smallredface:

After re-reading my response... I have to apologize, both the tone even I read out of that (knowing what I wanted it to sound like) sounds much harsher than intended. I just found the picture of a Monk going "Strike strike strike" and then standing there like that black knight from Knights of the Coconut every round to be somewhat amusing.

But considering my recommendation on sharding in that same post: Unarmed Strikes are considered Melee weapons, right? Since they are always considered to be a light weapon. It is quite pricey as a +2 enchantment though.

[upho]

After re-reading my response... I have to apologize, both the tone even I read out of that (knowing what I wanted it to sound like) sounds much harsher than intended.Thanks! But no harm done, especially since I realized my original post also read like I was an unusually annoying and humorless rules lawyer who lives for needless nitpicking. Which, come to think of it, probably happens so rarely it could even have been a reason for me to be proud unless I had screwed up checking the time for the OP's edit... :smalltongue:


I just found the picture of a Monk going "Strike strike strike" and then standing there like that black knight from Knights of the Coconut every round to be somewhat amusing.Well, it did put a smile on my face, even though my comment unfortunately only conveyed the opposite.


But considering my recommendation on sharding in that same post: Unarmed Strikes are considered Melee weapons, right? Since they are always considered to be a light weapon. It is quite pricey as a +2 enchantment though.Yeah, Sharding should be a fail-safe alternative. But I think you should be able to get away with Throwing or Throw Anything when combined with a "manufactered-and-unarmed-strike"-weapon and Integrated Weapon. As mentioned, there's also quite a big economic incentive for doing this, because on top of not needing the expensive sharding, you can have a total of three (four with a Bodywrap of Mighty Strikes) items with melee magic weapon abilities which may all apply to your "manufactered-and-unarmed-strike"-weapon attacks. Depending on your prefered magic weapon abilities, a rather hefty discount.

[Sagetim]

Me? I throw my hands like this (https://youtu.be/OzHE5q1NGa4?t=23) or maybe this (https://youtu.be/fvNVq74eZcY?t=140) ?

But, oh, you meant for making ranged attacks. With an unarmed strike. Well, damn, if you were talking 3.5, I could just relay you to a monk build I helped someone to be ridiculous with. Mind you, it was Ridiculous, Not super effective. And it involved making his ranged attacks explode for piercing damage...which meant that his, like, 8 or 9 fists in a round also exploded on impact somehow. The GM was willing to rule that he was throwing ki copies of his fists, because that made way more sense than his fists flying off, exploding, and coming back.

Anyway, you Won't be two weapon fighting and stacking that on the monk's flurry of blows and rapid shot and haste for maximum attacks per round, because I assume you need the fists to actually return before you can attack again with them. That said, I don't know if Manyshot or anything similar ever made it to pathfinder (which would be your go to for throwing both fists in a round and doing anything else at all). Another 3.5 thing I would pine for is the psionic weapon feature of teleporting, which was like returning, but didn't care if you moved.

Since you're a warforged, and your fists count as both manufactured and natural weapons (because of improved unarmed strike, if nothing else) I would argue you can directly enchant your fists (and am allowing someone playing a steelfist commando in a game I'm running tommrow to do so, so we'll see how bad of an idea that might be shortly). Warforged seems more likely to get away with it, since all warforged are arguably masterwork, since they are magical living constructs already and, as I recall, can enchant their inbuilt body armor shells without doing anything in particular. Further, pathfinder has a solution to 'this weapon is not masterwork enough to be enchanted' and that's a 2nd level spell Masterwork Transformation. Get it cast on your fists (or try to argue that you only need it cast once, since unarmed strikes can be done with various body parts, your body is the weapon, not just your hands). Masterwork body-weapon in hand, you can now get your unarmed strike directly enchanted. This being arguably possible because warforged are physically composed out of the same material that weapons and armor are, not flesh and bone and squishy vital organs. In this manner, you get your unarmed strike kitted out with throwing, returning, and whatever else you can fit because you're going to go buggy the clown on your opponents.

Why? Because you have more than two attacks in a round. It's time to make use of that by throwing your head (for a head butt), fists, elbows, shoulders, etc at things to get your full amount of attacks per round out with that full attack action + flurry. If you want to be gloriously silly with this for more attacks per round, you'll need a monk weapon with throwing and returning as well, so you can stack two weapon fighting on to monk flurry, and maybe mix in rapid shot and a bonus attack from haste in there too.