Help Creating a Great Axe Fighting Style

[JMAP94]

So, the ultimate greatsword versus Great Axe debate. At first glance, there pros and cons seem to balance each other out. The graph of the Great Axe damage is uniform. Each of the 12 possible outcomes are equally possible. With the Great Sword, the graph is on a bell curve (with the average of 7 being the most likely outcome and everything in either direction being less and less likely). For example, with 2d6 you have 1/36 chance to roll a 2 (snake eyes) as opposed to the 1/12 chance with the 1d12. The tradeoff, however, is that it is also less likely to reach maximum damage with 2d6 (by rolling boxcars) with a 1/36 versus the 1d12's 1 in 12 chance.

With the Great Weapon Fighthing Style (which allows you to reroll 1's and 2's for weapon damage rolls), however, there really isn't a debate. The Great Sword will provide you with more chances for re-rolls, (With a Great Sword, lets say you a roll a 5 and a one, you can keep the 5 and reroll the 1 whereas with a Great Axe, if you roll a 6 which is a 1 in 12 possibility, you are stuck with that roll). Therefore, Greatsword has an advantage over the Great Axe in this regard.

Well it got me thinking, is there any way that we can design a Great Axe Fighting Style that favors using bigger dice instead of more dice? Preferably, like the Great Weapon Master fighting style, I would like it to apply to other weapons as well. The first idea that popped into my head, which may or may not be balanced (welcome to criticism and alternate ideas), was this:

Draft #1 Cleaver Fighting Style

Every time you roll a 12 on a weapon damage dice (before applying modifiers), you may an additional 1d10 to the damage roll.

[obeseboywonder]

GWF between 2d6 (8.33) and 1d12 (7.33) is 1. Your new proposal makes 1d12 (6.96), which is weaker. In my games I removed GWF and changed dueling so it applied any time you were wielding just one weapon. Makes 2d6 (9), 1d12 (8.5), and makes versatile weapons no longer have the wonkiness of being stronger when wielded one handed.

[bid]

GWF between 2d6 (8.33) and 1d12 (7.33) is 1. Your new proposal makes 1d12 (6.96), which is weaker. In my games I removed GWF and changed dueling so it applied any time you were wielding just one weapon. Makes 2d6 (9), 1d12 (8.5), and makes versatile weapons no longer have the wonkiness of being stronger when wielded one handed.
That +2 is much easier than the gwf reroll. It's barely weaker on some crits (gwf is +8/3~2.66 for 4d6 or +10/6~1.66 for 2d12).

A nice no-nonsense solution.

[suplee215]

Does it need one? Yes, the greatsword and maul are going to outclass it. Halbred and Glaive outclass the pike to insane degrees due to lack of polearm bonus attack on pike. The critical roll rules at least give you a reason to use the greataxe to make you feel a little better. Does every option need a number reason to use? We are talking about a single point of damage. And this is in a perfect world where averages always work out the way they do on paper. In my short experience of DnD, the people who want to use a greataxe will use a greataxe whereas the people who want the perfect optimal solution will use that.

[Sirdar]

Relax - and choose the greater Axe!

Great Axe: 1d12
Greater Axe: 2d6

[ko_sct]

Rather than when you roll a natutal 12 on dmg roll (which can only happen with 2 weapons). Why not make it happen when you roll the max on your weapon dmg roll ?

Something like:
When you roll the maximum on a weapon dmg die(s), you can roll an additionnal die and add it to your total dmg.

It's like a mini-crit and it would apply no matter what weapon you use. But weapons like the greataxe have a higher chance of trigering it then the greatsword.

[jas61292]

Rather than when you roll a natutal 12 on dmg roll (which can only happen with 2 weapons). Why not make it happen when you roll the max on your weapon dmg roll ?

Something like:
When you roll the maximum on a weapon dmg die(s), you can roll an additionnal die and add it to your total dmg.

It's like a mini-crit and it would apply no matter what weapon you use. But weapons like the greataxe have a higher chance of trigering it then the greatsword.

While sensible, it is also super weak. Sure, it's really nice when it activates and it's stronger for single die weapons than multi dice ones, but on average, the great weapon style does more damage with an axe, and, ironically, because the chances of activation are 1/x, it actually improves small die weapons more than large ones.

In order to actually make a single, larger die more effective than multiple smaller ones, you need something like advantage on damage. Probably not all the time, as that is stupid strong, but it would work, as it would trend towards the max, while the greatswords trend towards the middle would counteract it somewhat.

There are probably other solutions, but that's just what came to mind.

[Hrugner]

Try something like this.

When making a melee attack with a weapon, roll both the damage and to hit dice at the same time. If any one damage die result is higher than your to hit die, use that roll instead applying your to hit bonuses to it as normal.

or

If an attack with your weapon reduces a creature's HP to the average result of one damage die rolled for the attack, you can spend your reaction to land a finishing blow killing them instantly with no need to roll and no additional effects that occur on a killing blow.

[JMAP94]

When you roll the maximum on a weapon dmg die(s), you can roll an additionnal die and add it to your total dmg.

The only reason why I don't like this idea is that you are essentially making it so that small weapons (like short sword at 1d6 or dagger at 1d4) are going to crit 15-25% of the time, effectively making it better for "one handed characters" than the big bruisers that the great axe caters to.


When making a melee attack with a weapon, roll both the damage and to hit dice at the same time. If any one damage die result is higher than your to hit die, use that roll instead applying your to hit bonuses to it as normal.


I like this idea! I'm not the biggest fan of the second idea though, just because you pretty much auto kill all low level enemies.

What if we said something like this: "When making an attack, When making a melee attack with a weapon, roll both the damage and to hit dice at the same time. You may choose to switch the to hit die with the result of one of the damage die"? (making it possible to basically roll a d20 for damgage in place of the d12 if the d12 would result in a hit)

[GlenSmash!]

GWF between 2d6 (8.33) and 1d12 (7.33) is 1. Your new proposal makes 1d12 (6.96), which is weaker. In my games I removed GWF and changed dueling so it applied any time you were wielding just one weapon. Makes 2d6 (9), 1d12 (8.5), and makes versatile weapons no longer have the wonkiness of being stronger when wielded one handed.

That is a very elegant solution. Well done.

[N810]

Have you seen the UA feats ?



Fell Handed

You master the handaxe, battleaxe, greataxe,
warhammer, and maul. You gain the following
benefits when using any of them:

• You gain a +1 bonus to attack rolls you make
with the weapon.

• Whenever you have advantage on a melee
attack roll you make with the weapon and hit,
you can knock the target prone if the lower of
the two d20 rolls would also hit the target.

• Whenever you have disadvantage on a melee
attack roll you make with the weapon, the
target takes bludgeoning damage equal to your
Strength modifier (minimum of 0) if the attack
misses but the higher of the two d20 rolls
would have hit.

• If you use the Help action to aid an ally’s melee
attack while you’re wielding the weapon, you
knock the target’s shield aside momentarily. In
addition to the ally gaining advantage on the
attack roll, the ally gains a +2 bonus to the roll
if the target is using a shield.

[suplee215]

Have you seen the UA feats ?

While this might seem to make the Greataxe viable, the Maul is still above the Greataxe due to 2d6.

[N810]

except when you consider crits:
2d6 weapons only add +1die (3d6 total)
while d12 enjoys full power crits (2d12 total)

this advantage only gets greater if you increase the number of extra crit dice,
via various race, feats, or class bonuses.

[qube]

GWF between 2d6 (8.33) and 1d12 (7.33) is 1. Your new proposal makes 1d12 (6.96),
hey ... the average damage of max(1d12,1d12) is 8.486

... though if you wanna go really brutal executioner: 1d12, or 1d20 vs prone targets :evil grin:

[jas61292]

except when you consider crits:
2d6 weapons only add +1die (3d6 total)
while d12 enjoys full power crits (2d12 total)

this advantage only gets greater if you increase the number of extra crit dice,
via various race, feats, or class bonuses.

Nah, crits double all the dice. Only extra damage features like Brutal Critical favor the greataxe.

[strangebloke]

GWF between 2d6 (8.33) and 1d12 (7.33) is 1. Your new proposal makes 1d12 (6.96), which is weaker. In my games I removed GWF and changed dueling so it applied any time you were wielding just one weapon. Makes 2d6 (9), 1d12 (8.5), and makes versatile weapons no longer have the wonkiness of being stronger when wielded one handed.

I just went by RAW and made it apply to all dice rolled by the player... Doesn't fix the weapon for fighters or barbarians, but it helps for paladins.

GWF to my mind needs a serious rework. It is complicated, slows down combat, and doesn't really have anything to do with Great Weapons. Like here's one idea:

Cleaving
Once per round, when an attack made with a Two Handed Weapon drops an enemy to zero hit points, he may make an additional attack with that weapon as part of his attack action. This ability stacks with the extra attack feature.

And after the glaring issue that is GWF is fixed, we can just add some more fighting styles. Right now, if you are a S&B fighter, you have three options for fighting style. Dueling, protection, and defense. Meanwhile, every other build (TWF, Archery, GWF) all just have two relevant fighting styles. I think a polearm style, a heavy weapon style, and a finesse style would all be awesome. Not sure what they'd look like though.

Maybe...

Heavy
When attacking with a heavy weapon, if adding 1 to your die roll would make it a critical, you may do so. (If you roll a 19, you can change the roll to a 20 and crit. If you have improved crit, you can change an 18 to a 19 and crit.)

...I've always had a soft spot in my heart for crit-fishing builds though.

[Innocent_bystan]

Couldn't you just use 'exploding dice', i.e. when you roll a 12 on the d12, you get to roll that die again and add the results. Do this for every die that rolls the maximum result.

[strangebloke]

Couldn't you just use 'exploding dice', i.e. when you roll a 12 on the d12, you get to roll that die again and add the results. Do this for every die that rolls the maximum result.

this is the system known as 'crit ratio' from warhammer. It's pretty bad at making something like the greataxe good, for reasons that are expressed throughout this thread.

[obeseboywonder]

hey ... the average damage of max(1d12,1d12) is 8.486

... though if you wanna go really brutal executioner: 1d12, or 1d20 vs prone targets :evil grin:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the style suggested was 12 on d12 grants an additional 1d10.

1d10 (5.5)/12 + 1d12 (6.5) = 6.96

If it was add an additional 1d12, then 1d12 (6.5)/12 +1d12 (6.5) = 7.042

[Deleted]

So, the ultimate greatsword versus Great Axe debate. At first glance, there pros and cons seem to balance each other out. The graph of the Great Axe damage is uniform. Each of the 12 possible outcomes are equally possible. With the Great Sword, the graph is on a bell curve (with the average of 7 being the most likely outcome and everything in either direction being less and less likely). For example, with 2d6 you have 1/36 chance to roll a 2 (snake eyes) as opposed to the 1/12 chance with the 1d12. The tradeoff, however, is that it is also less likely to reach maximum damage with 2d6 (by rolling boxcars) with a 1/36 versus the 1d12's 1 in 12 chance.

With the Great Weapon Fighthing Style (which allows you to reroll 1's and 2's for weapon damage rolls), however, there really isn't a debate. The Great Sword will provide you with more chances for re-rolls, (With a Great Sword, lets say you a roll a 5 and a one, you can keep the 5 and reroll the 1 whereas with a Great Axe, if you roll a 6 which is a 1 in 12 possibility, you are stuck with that roll). Therefore, Greatsword has an advantage over the Great Axe in this regard.

Well it got me thinking, is there any way that we can design a Great Axe Fighting Style that favors using bigger dice instead of more dice? Preferably, like the Great Weapon Master fighting style, I would like it to apply to other weapons as well. The first idea that popped into my head, which may or may not be balanced (welcome to criticism and alternate ideas), was this:

Draft #1 Cleaver Fighting Style

Every time you roll a 12 on a weapon damage dice (before applying modifiers), you may an additional 1d10 to the damage roll.

https://youtu.be/vfQclVPbL2E

Give the greataxe a range.

If a real person can do 60' in non-combat... A warrior in a fantasy game during combat should be able to hit 60 to 120' reliably well.

[D-naras]

Great at Great Weapon Fighting #1: When you wield a Heavy weapon, you score critical hits at 19 and 20. Stacks with other crit expansion.
Only favors the great axe if you are a half orc or a 9th + level barbarian.

Great at Great Weapon Fighting #2: When you deal damage with a Heavy weapon and its damage dice end up higher than your target's Strength, Dexterity or Constitution, the target also falls prone.
Don't really like it because it forces a stupid question after every hit.

Great at Great Weapon Fighting #3: When you deal damage with a Heavy weapon and its damage dice result in 10 or more, add your proficiency to the damage.
The great axe deals 10+ 25% of the time while the 2d6 weapons deal 10+ 16.5% of the time. This makes great axe average damage 6.5 + 1/4 of your proficiency and great sword damage 7+1/6 your proficiency. I like this the best as it also scales and naturally favors the d12 without making gameplay slower.

[strangebloke]

Great at Great Weapon Fighting #1: When you wield a Heavy weapon, you score critical hits at 19 and 20. Stacks with other crit expansion.
Only favors the great axe if you are a half orc or a 9th + level barbarian.

Great at Great Weapon Fighting #2: When you deal damage with a Heavy weapon and its damage dice end up higher than your target's Strength, Dexterity or Constitution, the target also falls prone.
Don't really like it because it forces a stupid question after every hit.

Great at Great Weapon Fighting #3: When you deal damage with a Heavy weapon and its damage dice result in 10 or more, add your proficiency to the damage.
The great axe deals 10+ 25% of the time while the 2d6 weapons deal 10+ 16.5% of the time. This makes great axe average damage 6.5 + 1/4 of your proficiency and great sword damage 7+1/6 your proficiency. I like this the best as it also scales and naturally favors the d12 without making gameplay slower.

All three of these options are quite weak, unfortunately.

[qube]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the style suggested was 12 on d12 grants an additional 1d10.

1d10 (5.5)/12 + 1d12 (6.5) = 6.96

If it was add an additional 1d12, then 1d12 (6.5)/12 +1d12 (6.5) = 7.042yes yes, I was talking always rolling 2d12 and picking the highest. That gives a number comparable to to 2d6 GWF (namely 8.48 vs 8.33)


Great at Great Weapon Fighting #3: When you deal damage with a Heavy weapon and its damage dice result in 10 or more, add your proficiency to the damage.
The great axe deals 10+ 25% of the timecompared to a flat +2 bonus, even at level 20, 25% on a +6 is kind of weak.

A flat bonus of 10 instead of proficiency seems better. (easiest number to add, while 25% of 10 is about 2 (it's a tiny bit more, sure, but a lower stable damage output, is worth more then an unstable one anyway, as it doesn't matter how much you reduce a monster to zero) )

[Sharur]

I disagree with StrangeBloke, on the need for more fighting styles. How many ways can one play a base martial character? I would say seven, with there not coincidentally being six fighting styles in the PHB (one of which works equally well for two of the modes of martial character).
1. Big weapon, for those willing to sacrifice defense in pursuit of damage: Great Weapon Fighting
2. Defensive, for those wanting to protect themselves: Defensive
3. Protective, for those wanting to protect others: Protective
4. Archer: Archery
5: Thrower: also Archery
6: One handed weapon (w/ or w/o shield): Duelist
7: Two weapons: Two weapon fighting

Note that none of these fighting styles directly require any weapon(as a shield is not a weapon); there are type restrictions, but not actual requirements. For example, Archery can be used with any thrown or ranged weapon, while a spear can be used with both Duelist and Great Weapon Fighting (but not at the same time).

A fighting style should represent a tactical specialization, in my opinion: there is little tactical difference (until higher levels, anyway) between a crossbowman and an archer, nor between a brute with a great-axe and a brute with a maul. Even the UA fighting styles continue this: for example, Tunnel Fighter is the style of someone (regardless of weapon) who does not actively attack, but reacts to anyone coming near.

Personally, I think the fell-handed would have worked for the desired purpose (but for having Maul included), but then I think there should have been a different feat for the blunt weapons (club, maul, flail, etc.)

My attempt at a feat, which may be too strong:

Axe Master: You gain the following benefits, when wielding the following weapons: Battle-axe, Glaive, Great-axe, Halberd, and Hand-axe.

-Shearing Blade: Your mastery of axes allows you to follow through, maximizing the effect of a perfect strike. When you attack with one of the above weapons, that weapon gains the Vicious property (Vicious: On a natural 20, the weapon deals an additional 2d6 slashing damage)

-Tomahawk Thrower: Your familiarity with letting axes fly, allowing you greater precision at range, as well as with axes thought too large to throwYou may treat a Battle-axe or Great-axe you hold as having the Thrown property, with a range of 20/60. Additionally, the range of a Hand-axe is increased to 30/90.

-Shield of Swings(Lore): You swing your axe blindly in wild arcs, making it hard to foes or arrows to strike you.

-Shield of Swings(Version 1): When you take the Attack action, and attack with one or more of the above weapons, you may choose to pose disadvantage on your attack rolls until the start of your next turn, if you do so, attacks made against you have disadvantage until the beginning of your next turn.

-Shield of Swings(Version 1.5): When you take the Attack action, and attack with one or more of the above weapons, you may choose to pose disadvantage on your attack rolls until the start of your next turn, if you do so, you gain a bonus to AC and Dexterity Saving Throws equal to your proficiency bonus;Alternatively, when you take the Dodge action you do not lose your bonus if your speed drops to 0 (but you still do if you are incapacitated), and you may forgo the advantage granted to Dexterity saving throws, in exchange for a bonus to your AC equal to you your proficiency bonus.

-Shield of Swings(Version 2): When you take the Attack action, and attack with one or more of the above weapons, you may use your Bonus Action to Dodge.

-Shield of Swings(Version 3): When you take the Dodge Action while wielding one or more of the above weapons, you may instead choose to forgo the Advantage granted you by Dodge in favor of a +5 Bonus to AC and Dexterity Saving Throws, as if you were under Three-Quarters Cover. This bonus ends if you are incapacitated, but not if your speed drops to zero.

[bid]

For example, Archery can be used with any thrown or ranged weapon,
Except for net. Net is the only thrown, ranged weapon.

[strangebloke]

I disagree with StrangeBloke, on the need for more fighting styles. How many ways can one play a base martial character? I would say seven, with there not coincidentally being six fighting styles in the PHB (one of which works equally well for two of the modes of martial character).
1. Big weapon, for those willing to sacrifice defense in pursuit of damage: Great Weapon Fighting
2. Defensive, for those wanting to protect themselves: Defensive
3. Protective, for those wanting to protect others: Protective
4. Archer: Archery
5: Thrower: also Archery
6: One handed weapon (w/ or w/o shield): Duelist
7: Two weapons: Two weapon fighting

Note that none of these fighting styles directly require any weapon(as a shield is not a weapon); there are type restrictions, but not actual requirements. For example, Archery can be used with any thrown or ranged weapon, while a spear can be used with both Duelist and Great Weapon Fighting (but not at the same time).

A fighting style should represent a tactical specialization, in my opinion: there is little tactical difference (until higher levels, anyway) between a crossbowman and an archer, nor between a brute with a great-axe and a brute with a maul. Even the UA fighting styles continue this: for example, Tunnel Fighter is the style of someone (regardless of weapon) who does not actively attack, but reacts to anyone coming near.

Your definition of 'tactical specialization' is rather vague. How is 'fighting with a reach weapon' not a tactical specialization? How is 'fighting with two weapons' a tactical specialization?

A fighting style is exactly what it says on the tin: A style that you fight with. For that reason, I fail to see how more (balanced) fighting styles can be anything other than a good thing, since this literally just adds more options for we the players.

'Heavy Weapons' would be fun, since it would apply to crossbows as well as polearms.
'Polearms' would be fun since fighting with a reach weapon is a significantly different playstyle than fighting with a greatsword.
A fighting style focused on shoves and disarms and the like would be cool as well.

You can't 'fill in the gap' with feats, because feats are optional. Granted, I've never met anyone that didn't use them, but in terms of design and balance, you have to assume that players won't have access to them.


Additionally, a short note as to why GWF is bad:
longsword w/ dueling: 6.5 damage per hit. +2
greataxe w/ GWF: 7.33 damage per hit. +0.83
greatsword w/ GWF: 8.34 damage per hit. +1.34

[Easy_Lee]

I prefer situational fighting styles. Here's something to emphasize the large, arcing swings you'd made with a heavy weapon that also emphasizes the playstyle.

Fighting style: Cleaver
When wielding a heavy weapon, you gain +2 to hit against creatures larger than medium. If you miss with a heavy weapon attack, you may immediately make an attack with disadvantage against another creature within your reach.

Justification: big creatures would have a hard time avoiding or fully deflecting a large weapon, and you're likely to hit someone else when swinging something like that around. We've all been in situations where we accidentally hit someone when swinging something around. Or is that just me?

[strangebloke]

I prefer situational fighting styles. Here's something to emphasize the large, arcing swings you'd made with a heavy weapon that also emphasizes the playstyle.

Fighting style: Cleaver
When wielding a heavy weapon, you gain +2 to hit against creatures larger than medium. If you miss with a heavy weapon attack, you may immediately make an attack with disadvantage against another creature within your reach.

Justification: big creatures would have a hard time avoiding or fully deflecting a large weapon, and you're likely to hit someone else when swinging something like that around. We've all been in situations where we accidentally hit someone when swinging something around. Or is that just me?

I like this idea more, although I'd prefer to reserving the 'better against large' trait for polearms/reach weapons.

The point is that it has to, as you say, emphasize the playstyle. I really like how this one gives you a chance to hit... adds a little positioning game into things.

GWF currently synergizes with... small damage dice.