EK/Wizard- is it worth it?

[kenposan]

So I have an EK and I'm wanting more spell versatility. Well, multi-classing provides more versatility. But while I gain more spells, I lose on spell level as I understand it.

I was thinking EK 7/Wizard X. But then I go from a 7th level caster to a 3rd level caster, so spells that were previously scaled drop.

Is it worth it losing spell level to gain the extra spells?

[PhantomSoul]

It would be good to look over pages 164-165 of the PHB, which discusses how multiclassing affects spellcasting.

It isn't the official terminology, but I find it easy to think of spell slots in terms of "caster levels". For multiclassed spellcasting you basically "convert" your character level into the caster level to figure out your spell slots -- I'll use your character if leveling up as a Wizard as an example (so Eldritch Knight 7 / Wizard 1). For full casters (Bards, Clerics, Druids, Sorcerers and Wizards), you get one caster level per class level. For you, that means one level of Wizard gives you one caster level. Eldritch Knights and Arcane Tricksters as third-casters, so you get one caster level for every three class levels (rounded down). In your case, that currently means you get two caster levels (7/3 = 2.33, rounded down to 2). You add these caster levels together and that gives you your character's caster level, which in your case would be 3 (one from Wizard plus two from Eldritch Knight). The table on page 165 (which is really just the spell progression of a single-classed full caster) tells you you'll have 4 first-level spell slots and 2 second-level spell slots.

However, you gain spells based on your individual classes, so you get the spells of a first-level Wizard plus the spells of a seventh-level Eldritch Knight. At Eldritch Knight 7 / Wizard 1 that makes no difference, so let's use Eldritch Knight 6 / Wizard 1 for comparison instead: you're at caster level 3 (6/3=2 from Eldritch Knight, 1 from Wizard), so you get four first-level spell slots and two second-level spell slots. However, if you look at your Eldritch Knight table you only get spells of first level (plus cantrips), and the same is true for your Wizard table -- this means you can cast a first-level spell using a second-level spell slot, but you don't have any second-level spells to cast using those second-level spell slots. If you were Eldritch Knight 7 with no Wizard levels, you can see from the Eldritch Knight spellcasting table that you'd have four first-level spell slots and two second-level spell slots, and so you could cast second-level spells. There are some tricky points like this, but it isn't bad overall.

Overall, Wizard is a great multiclass option for Eldritch Knights:
- It's a full caster level, which means you will have the same number of spell slots as you would being single-classed, or you'll have more
- You'll gain spells and cantrips from your levels in Wizard (and those can always be from any spell school!)
- You'll gain ritual casting (don't forget that your Eldritch Knight spells are still Wizard spells, so you can ritually cast those if they're also rituals!)
- You'll get a spell book and prepared spells, which increases the number of spells you can know and you can switch some out as needed (read the Wizard's spellcasting info if you're not sure what I mean)
- You'll get Arcane Recovery, which means that once day you can get half of your Wizard level (rounded up) in spell slots back upon completing a short rest. If only doing a level or two then it's only one first-level spell... but that's one more Shield!
- If you level up in Wizard again afterwards, you can pick an Arcane Tradition (Abjuration and Bladesinger are options to look into for melee benefits, but Divination has an early goodie you might like too)

[mephnick]

I find that AT and EK are almost always better with some mix of wizard. Being able to pick spells from any school, even low level spells, as well as adding full caster levels for slot progression, helps them a lot. I honestly prefer almost a half split for either class.

[Coranhann]

Was asking the same question in Specter guide to EK (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?479532-Bellator-Arcana-The-Eldritch-Knight-s-guide).

He made a point that the most important feature for the EK is level 10 eldritch strike. Before that, you're fighter with less than a handful of good abjuration spells, 2 good utility or buff spells and an array of AoE with sub par DC (unless you got lucky on your stat).
Once your reach level 10, you can reliably cast hold person and actually succeed.

So, before that, multiclassing is only delaying the most interesting part of the class (cause war magic is good, but not that great)...
... and after, it will still take you 5 wizard level before you can learn (not cast, learn) 3rd level wizard spell like fly or haste.

All in all, I'd say don't multiclass. Level 11 EK brings 3 attacks, and forcing disadvantage on saves for your spell. That's awesome. Adding 4 levels of wizard on top of 7 levels of EK brings more choice of 1st & 2nd level spell, but you remain at 2 attacks per turn, offering nothing new to the table, while your friends & ennemies get stronger & stronger.

Note that the errata-ed rules for EK says that you can swap the "free spell" you get at level 3 (the one that is not abj. or evo.) for another free spell each time you level up. So as soon as you hit level 7, you can learn hold person or invisibility or see invisibility or whatever.

[bid]

So I have an EK and I'm wanting more spell versatility. Well, multi-classing provides more versatility. But while I gain more spells, I lose on spell level as I understand it.

I was thinking EK 7/Wizard X. But then I go from a 7th level caster to a 3rd level caster, so spells that were previously scaled drop.

Is it worth it losing spell level to gain the extra spells?
EK7 gives you 4 1st + 2 2nd slots, same as any 3rd level full caster.

EK7 / wiz1 is 7/3 + 1/1 = 3rd level caster, which offers the same slots.
As an EK7, you still know 5 spells.
As a wiz1, you have a spellbook with 6 1st-level spells.


If you don't want to lose that 1/3 caster level, reach EK 9.
EK9 / wiz1 is 9/3 + 1/1 = 4th level caster.
But then, you're behind an EK7 / wiz3 = 6th caster without gaining the EK10 feature.

[Tanarii]

Is it worth it losing spell level to gain the extra spells?
Youre going to have to expand on how you think it works, because this doesn't look right at all.

Multi classing trades off higher level new abilities for more lower level abilities. But in the case of spell slots, the levels stack. 1/3 EK levels + wizard levels means a EK 7 / Wizard X gets the same number of spell slots as a Wizard X + 2. EK 10 / Wizard X gets spell slots as Wizard X + 3.

What you don't get is spells known or spells in your spell book at a higher level. But since an EK 7 only casts level 2 spells, that's hardly a loss at all. You'll get level 3 spells at character level 13 as a straight EK, and at level 12 as a EK 7 / Wiz 5. It's more of a decision for EK 10/wiz, because you're delaying 3rd level spells to character level 15. (Edit: but again, not 3rd level spell slots, which you get at level EK 10 / Wiz 2, compared to a straight EK getting at level 13. So faster 3rd level spell slots, but slower 3rd level spells.)

The trade off for over faster (not slower) spell advancement for an EK 7 / Wizard X is you're giving up or slowing down access to Eldritch Strike.

The trade off for EK 10 / Wizard X (or more realistically EK 11 / Wiz 9 or EK 12 / Wiz 8) is quite a few levels delayed higher level spell access (but not spell slot access), in return for eventually being able to cast 6th level spells slots (but only 4th or 5th level spells in them).

[Specter]

As others mentioned, as soon as you take a Wiz level you expand your slots, not shrink them.

And yes, it's worth it. You'd be focusing on War Magic instead of 3 attacks. But I'd wait for level 8, for the ASI and the school-free level 2 spell from EK.

[Relbin]

I am playing a similar build in Adventurers League. I am a high elf and have kind of an Indiana Jones/The Librarians vibe. I went Fighter 5, then Wizard 2 for bladesong and utility and then fighter 7 for war magic and wizard from there on out.

In my experience, it has increased my character's versatility and utility substantially. Level 1 rituals (comprehend languages, detect magic, alarm) come up in almost every adventure and being able to prepare and cast situationally useful spells (e.g. fog cloud against a medusa) has been a life saver.

I'm currently level 10 and I have the same slots as a half caster so I don't feel far behind and it will just get better from here. I'm typically casting blur, hold person (excellent use of third level slot while I wait to get actual 3rd level stuff) and blindness in combat before wailing on enemies with war magic. I gain 3rd level slots a level before the vanilla eldritch knight and the increased spell selection means out of combat utility will continue to grow.

The Eldritch Knight is likely slightly better at combat with more hp and third attack but the utility and versatility you bring to your party makes a huge difference overall. I would highly recommend the multiclass unless you already have someone in your party providing a lot of magical utility.

[MaxWilson]

So I have an EK and I'm wanting more spell versatility. Well, multi-classing provides more versatility. But while I gain more spells, I lose on spell level as I understand it.

I was thinking EK 7/Wizard X. But then I go from a 7th level caster to a 3rd level caster, so spells that were previously scaled drop.

Is it worth it losing spell level to gain the extra spells?

It depends. How do you plan to use the extra levels?

Sharpshooter Eldritch Knight 11/Rogue 2/Necromancer 7 is super fun and powerful, with as many spell slots as a 10th level wizard, access to 4th level spells like Greater Invisibility (goes great with Cunning Action as well as Sharpshooter), a big enough spell selection to actually do something with Eldritch Strike (e.g. Tasha's Hideous Laughter), powerful minions, a bit of sneak attack damage, etc. In a straight-up fight it's almost competitive with a pure Eldritch Knight in weapons combat (you're missing an extra attack and a second Action Surge) even before you add in Cunning Action, Expertise (I recommend Stealth and Athletics), and all the spells and minions.

For example, even if you're a Dex-y Sharpshooter, Athletics Expertise + Enlarge spell will let you tank even adult dragons just by Enlarging yourself before you grapple. A 16th level EK 11/Rogue 2/Necromancer 3 who does Enlarge + Action Surge Grapple/Shove Prone against an adult red dragon has a +10 Athletics check to its +8, and therefore has a 74% chance of winning any given Athletics contest. There's a 98% chance that dragon is going to be grappled by the end of the EK's turn, and an 83% chance of being both grappled and prone. (There's even a 40% chance the EK will get in an attack while he's at it.) That makes the dragon fall out of the sky if he's flying, and it also cuts the dragon's chances of damaging the EK without a breath weapon to something fairly pathetic, landing something on the order of one attack per round once Shield is accounted for, even counting legendary attacks with the tail. It doesn't trivialize the dragon fight but it transforms it into a fairly straightforward beat-down by the other PCs at advantage vs. a dragon who can't maneuver or attack well--and the funny thing is that that's not even Plan A! Plan A is to kill the dragon to death with ranged attacks and kiting and a skeleton army. If Plan A fails and the dragon manages to lure you into close terrain where it can breath fire on things and bite you, THAT's when you Enlarge + grapple/prone it--your Plan B is better than most PCs' Plan A!

So yes, it can be very much worth it if you use those extra levels judiciously.

[alchahest]

of all the Fighter subclasses, EK adds the most.. stuff as you level. spellcasting aside, war magic gives you early versatility, eldritch strike empowers your spellcasting in a very real and potent way, level 15 is the delicious teleport-when-you-action surge, and improved war magic opens more doors for smashing face with magic and steel.

which means you can stab three dudes, action surge, teleporting away, and casting fireball on them where their saves are at a disadvantage. for example.

[kenposan]

I appreciate the advice. Some possible miscommunication on my part in terms of "spell level" and 'caster level'. I don't normally play casters and have never multi-classed, so both of these areas are a bit new to me.

What I meant was this:

If I'm a 7th level EK, I cast Firebolt with 2d10 because it scaled at level 5.

But I go MC to wizard 1, my "spell level" drops to level 3, meaning Firebolt is now cast at below level 5. I am understanding that incorrectly? I was using forged anvil's character creation sheet to help do this and that it what it tells me.

7th level EK "spellcasting level" is 7.

But if I then go EK7/W1, my "spellcasting level" drops to 3.

So I get nice boost in spells, I get a spell-book, expanded spell list, but my "power level" in terms of casting scaling spells drops, correct?

So is it worth the trade off for those bonuses given the low level of spells available?

[PhantomSoul]

A level of Eldritch Knight isn't really a full level of spellcasting -- if you look at the Eldritch Knight table, you're getting spells at about a third of the rate of a Wizard, for example. Your Eldritch Knight at level 7 really isn't a level 7 spellcaster -- it's just not telling you that outright!

The easiest way to see this is to compare the spell slot progression of the Eldritch Knight to the one from a Wizard, and see what level of Wizard (or multiclasses caster or cleric or druid or bard or sorcerer; they're the same for spell slots) matches your level of Eldritch Knight.



Levels of Eldritch Knight
Levels for Wizard to have the same spell slots


1
(None)


2
(None)


3
1


4
2


5
2


6
2


7
3


8
3


9
3


10
4


11
4


12
4


13
5


14
5


15
5


16
6


17
6


18
6


19
7


20
7



Edit: It's worth highlighting that your (non-cantrip) spells are as powerful as your stats (depending on the spell; for setting spell save DCs and spell attack modifiers) and the spell slot used (depending on the spell; for things that get damage when being cast at a higher level, like Fireball). Your spells aren't affected by your level otherwise -- and so getting higher-level spell slots means being able to upcast (cast with more power using a higher-level spell slot) and potentially do more damage or get additional benefits. A 20th-level can cast a Fireball that's at best upgraded to a fourth-level spell (9d6) -- but the Wizard can do that at level 7, and at level 8 could do it twice whereas the level-20 Eldritch Knight can only do that once.

You noted Firebolt -- that's a cantrip, and those work differently. Cantrips, unlike normal spells, aren't based on spell slots, but just care about character level. So Eldritch Knight 7 / Wizard 1 is level 8, just like Eldritch Knight 8 is level 8. Whenever your total level, added together, gets to 11, you'll see an increase in damage, and for the damaging spells your stats (affect the spell save DC and the attack modifier) and your total level (for the proficiency bonus, which affects spell save DCs and attack modifiers) are what are affect the chance to hit with a damaging cantrip.

[Biggstick]

I appreciate the advice. Some possible miscommunication on my part in terms of "spell level" and 'caster level'. I don't normally play casters and have never multi-classed, so both of these areas are a bit new to me.

What I meant was this:

If I'm a 7th level EK, I cast Firebolt with 2d10 because it scaled at level 5.

But I go MC to wizard 1, my "spell level" drops to level 3, meaning Firebolt is now cast at below level 5. I am understanding that incorrectly? I was using forged anvil's character creation sheet to help do this and that it what it tells me.

7th level EK "spellcasting level" is 7.

But if I then go EK7/W1, my "spellcasting level" drops to 3.

So I get nice boost in spells, I get a spell-book, expanded spell list, but my "power level" in terms of casting scaling spells drops, correct?

So is it worth the trade off for those bonuses given the low level of spells available?

Your spell caster level has nothing to do with your cantrip scaling. Cantrip power scales off of your actual Character level, not class levels.

All of the damaging cantrips scale up at CHARACTER LEVELS 5, 11, and 17. It doesn't matter if you simply took the Magic Initiate feat at level 1 and are a level 20 Barbarian. That Firebolt-flinging Barbarian will still be doing so at 4d10 fire damage, despite their 8 Intelligence.

[Specter]

Your spell caster level has nothing to do with your cantrip scaling. Cantrip power scales off of your actual Character level, not class levels.

All of the damaging cantrips scale up at CHARACTER LEVELS 5, 11, and 17. It doesn't matter if you simply took the Magic Initiate feat at level 1 and are a level 20 Barbarian. That Firebolt-flinging Barbarian will still be doing so at 4d10 fire damage, despite their 8 Intelligence.

This. An EK 7/Wiz 4 has a caster level of 6, and casts cantrips as an 11th-level character (regardless of class).

[mephnick]

of all the Fighter subclasses, EK adds the most.. stuff as you level. spellcasting aside, war magic gives you early versatility, eldritch strike empowers your spellcasting in a very real and potent way, level 15 is the delicious teleport-when-you-action surge, and improved war magic opens more doors for smashing face with magic and steel.

which means you can stab three dudes, action surge, teleporting away, and casting fireball on them where their saves are at a disadvantage. for example.

Eh, war magic and eldritch strike are fun, but earlier, unrestricted spells powered by many more spell slots is better. I think EK 11/ Wiz 9 is the sweet spot with giving priority to EK levels until war magic and then leveling wizard. Of course it depends on how long the campaign will go. There's good arguments for EK 10/ Wiz 10 for the school feature, but I like having that third attack that sets me apart.

[Biggstick]

Personally I would say it absolutely is. Grabbing a Wizard level or two opens you up drastically in spells available. A spell book allows you to grab all those sweet level 1 ritual spells and keep them in the book while your EK spells can be things like Shield, Absorb Elements, and Magic Missiles.

I'd personally grab the Wizard level(s) sometime after level 6 and before level 10. It is most definitely worth it.

[kenposan]

Your spell caster level has nothing to do with your cantrip scaling. Cantrip power scales off of your actual Character level, not class levels.

All of the damaging cantrips scale up at CHARACTER LEVELS 5, 11, and 17. It doesn't matter if you simply took the Magic Initiate feat at level 1 and are a level 20 Barbarian. That Firebolt-flinging Barbarian will still be doing so at 4d10 fire damage, despite their 8 Intelligence.

I knew I was missing something and that was it. Thanks to all who pointed that out for me!

[alchahest]

Eh, war magic and eldritch strike are fun, but earlier, unrestricted spells powered by many more spell slots is better. I think EK 11/ Wiz 9 is the sweet spot with giving priority to EK levels until war magic and then leveling wizard. Of course it depends on how long the campaign will go. There's good arguments for EK 10/ Wiz 10 for the school feature, but I like having that third attack that sets me apart.

11 is definitely a minimum for me, that third attack sets you apart from all other martials / half casters. I personally love the 15th level action surge improvement.

[Tanarii]

I knew I was missing something and that was it. Thanks to all who pointed that out for me!There's a few things you have to think about for multi classed Spellcasting Feature characters:

1) cantrip level = total character level. Gain cantrips said based on class level.

2) spell slots level = sum[1xFull Spellcasting levels + 1/2xHalf Spellcasting levels + 1/3xThird Spellcasting levels] (round down fractions before adding)

3) spells prepared / in spell book o/ known = determine level limit and rate gained individually by each class. Do not add class levels or go by character level.

[Sans.]

I'd take two levels, just because I love EK/BS. Beyond that, Abjurer is still good on an EK, Diviner is always good, the others are all pretty meh.

[djreynolds]

Here's the kicker, that 10th level ability... eldritch strike is awesome and curiously only says the next spell you cast.

So this combos well with EK/wizard, EK/sorcerer, EK/etc... Eldritch strike works whether the spell is a sorcerer or wizard or whatever. Now I like EK/war cleric as I like divine favor and my wisdom is usually around 14 minimum anyhow due to resilient wisdom....

But sorcerer might even be better

Especially EK/sorcerer. Imagine your EK hits a dude or monster with war magic BB and then another sword strike.... bam eldritch strike.... next round quickened hold person (EK10/sorcerer3) to possibly hold monster (at 19th level) at disadvantage (akin to a free heightened spell every other round) and then hit.

This is why some people making an EK dump intelligence so as to max out another casting stat instead such as wisdom or charisma. By 10th level you could have str/dex at 20 and any casting stat well into 18

[Tanarii]

I know dumping Int was all the optimizer guide vogue when 5e first came out for EK, but I've seen enough of them in play now to say straight up, they're all wrong and it's hamstringing your EK if it's single class. Because War Magic is the cornerstone of EK offense starting at level 7.

It could work for a multiclass EK 7 / full caster X or EK 10 / Full Catser X. Go get War Magic, then immediately pick up the other class at 8 and get your non-Int casting stat cantrip. Probably Sacred Flame for Cleric if you're going to then backtrack and get Eldritch Strike after.

[Specter]

I know dumping Int was all the optimizer guide vogue when 5e first came out for EK, but I've seen enough of them in play now to say straight up, they're all wrong and it's hamstringing your EK if it's single class. Because War Magic is the cornerstone of EK offense starting at level 7.

It could work for a multiclass EK 7 / full caster X or EK 10 / Full Catser X. Go get War Magic, then immediately pick up the other class at 8 and get your non-Int casting stat cantrip. Probably Sacred Flame for Cleric if you're going to then backtrack and get Eldritch Strike after.

And even those who only use Booming Blade will be hamstringed later on, because their save spells will be very meh even with Eldritch Strike. If I'm wasting a precious 3rd level spell on Fireball, I expect it to deal 28 damage, not 14.

[Tanarii]

And even those who only use Booming Blade will be hamstringed later on, because their save spells will be very meh even with Eldritch Strike. If I'm wasting a precious 3rd level spell on Fireball, I expect it to deal 28 damage, not 14.
Ah yes, I'd forgotten SCAG cantrips. They do change the equation. But yes, expecting your AoEs, which is 1/2 the entire reason for EKs getting spells, to be effective is another reason to not dump Int.

Otoh if you're mulitclassing the character, that becomes less important, since you'll have plenty of low level spells and can use the other class for your 'go boom' spells known/prepared.

[mephnick]

It's not like it's hard to get a decent INT either. The dump INT crowd always confused me.

[Tanarii]

It's not like it's hard to get a decent INT either. The dump INT crowd always confused me.
If your making a GWM or sharpshooter build, the Cantrip / War Magic rotation goes from being typically (but not always) slightly advantageous to almost always sub-par.

If you're using SCAG cantrips instead of PHB Cantrips for the Cantrip / War Magic rotation, you don't need INt for it.

In both of these situations, you can afford less investment in Int for your AoE spells, especially if you whack them with Eldritch Strike first. GWM/SS also decrease the comparative value of using any spell slot for compared to directly doing damage anyway, so with those feats in play, people are tempted to drop damaging spells (and Int) completely and just go with defensive / utility magics.

Basically, the trend primarily came from the optimization community jumping all over two feats shortly after 5e release.

[Sariel Vailo]

14 wizard three fighter wk three bard be an eldritch blade dancer.bard either archetype wizard bladesinger fighter ek

[mephnick]

Basically, the trend primarily came from the optimization community jumping all over two feats shortly after 5e release.

Fair enough, although I'd question why those people bother with EK in the first place. Doesn't seem worth it to dedicate my entire subclass choice to the shield spell and just SS all day anyway. Like...just make a Battlemaster, you know? I choose EK because I want to actually use a variety of magical abilities and take advantage of the knowledge skills. Different strokes I guess.

[Citan]

So I have an EK and I'm wanting more spell versatility. Well, multi-classing provides more versatility. But while I gain more spells, I lose on spell level as I understand it.

I was thinking EK 7/Wizard X. But then I go from a 7th level caster to a 3rd level caster, so spells that were previously scaled drop.

Is it worth it losing spell level to gain the extra spells?
Multiclassing into a Wizard is extremely worthy in most occasions, but do require some finesse.
Grabbing one very early level of Wizard (like, just after starting Fighter) can be a great choice if you get weapon cantrips. Otherwise, it's usually better to wait at least until you get Extra Attack.

And once you are at Extra Attack, you might as well wait until you got War Magic because it's nice to pair with cantrips.
But once you are there, you start feeling the weight of xp to get to next level, and Eldricht Strike (10) and 3rd Attack (11) are damn good.
Etc etc...

Basically, it can be great as long as you know why you dip and how you dip (aka you know what you delay/lose and consider it's an acceptable loss).

For example, a High Elf that would start his career as a melee Fighter could very well cast away the usual weapon attacks and go Bladesinger 2 as soon as he got Action Surge: he loses in chances to attack, but gains much better AC and concentration and array of spells, making him that more susceptible to survive the first tier.

A Variant Human EK that took Mobile would certainly not delay too much his progression towards Extra Attack and 3rd attack, but grabbing a single level of Wizard somewhere between the both would give him more options to play with.

Another EK that geared himself towards full-plate tankiness could decide to botch 3rd attack, instead start multiclassing into Abjurer Wizard just after hitting level 6 or 7, never looking back for Eldricht Strike because he specialized into buff/defense/utility.

Most of the time though, a multiclass EK/Wizard gets born to really exploit Eldricht Strike, and that is a late feature, so the best way is usually to stick to Fighter until then until you really have a layered plan to follow towards a specific trick. Like a character concept of a slightly mad EK that likes to burn everyone around him -but still knows better than harm allies (in which case starting with 16 STR, 16 INT and doing Fighter 3 > Evoker Wizard 2 > Fighter 5 > Wizard 5 is the best choice).

[Randomthom]

I'm surprised at how complicated people are making this.

P164-5 of the PHB has all you need to understand this but simply put;

The "full" spellcasting classes (Wizard, Sorceror, Druid, Cleric) gain 1 "Spell Level" per level.
The "half" spellcasting classes (Ranger, Paladin) gain 1 "Spell Level" per 2 levels (rounding down).
The "third" spellcasting classes (Arcane Trickster, Eldritch Knight) gain 1 "Spell Level" per 3 levels (rounding down).

Thus a 10 Wizard, 5 Ranger, 5 Eldritch Knight has a "Spell Level" of 13. 10 from Wizard, 2 from Ranger, 1 from Eldritch Knight.
A 13 Wizard, 4 Ranger, 3 EK has a SL of 16.

This helps you calculate your spell slots but the actual spells you have access to are (generally) class-level restricted. The Wizard somewhat side-steps this by being able to copy spells into their spellbook up to the highest level for which they have spell slots, thus the 2nd example (13 Wiz/4 Ranger/3 EK) would have access to up to level 7 spells from the Wizard levels gained but could, if they found a level 8 scroll, transcribe it into their spellbook and then prepare it each day.

[bid]

This helps you calculate your spell slots but the actual spells you have access to are (generally) class-level restricted.
Except this hasn't been his problem for more than half the thread. It was a cantrip scale up issue.

[Sariel Vailo]

I'm surprised at how complicated people are making this.

P164-5 of the PHB has all you need to understand this but simply put;

The "full" spellcasting classes (Wizard, Sorceror, Druid, Cleric) gain 1 "Spell Level" per level.
The "half" spellcasting classes (Ranger, Paladin) gain 1 "Spell Level" per 2 levels (rounding down).
The "third" spellcasting classes (Arcane Trickster, Eldritch Knight) gain 1 "Spell Level" per 3 levels (rounding down).

Thus a 10 Wizard, 5 Ranger, 5 Eldritch Knight has a "Spell Level" of 13. 10 from Wizard, 2 from Ranger, 1 from Eldritch Knight.
A 13 Wizard, 4 Ranger, 3 EK has a SL of 16.

This helps you calculate your spell slots but the actual spells you have access to are (generally) class-level restricted. The Wizard somewhat side-steps this by being able to copy spells into their spellbook up to the highest level for which they have spell slots, thus the 2nd example (13 Wiz/4 Ranger/3 EK) would have access to up to level 7 spells from the Wizard levels gained but could, if they found a level 8 scroll, transcribe it into their spellbook and then prepare it each day.

Could have used your back up in the other thread i was in but yeah i told them this and everyone disagreed in that thread glad someone else gets it.

[Tanarii]

The Wizard somewhat side-steps this by being able to copy spells into their spellbook up to the highest level for which they have spell slots, thus the 2nd example (13 Wiz/4 Ranger/3 EK) would have access to up to level 7 spells from the Wizard levels gained but could, if they found a level 8 scroll, transcribe it into their spellbook and then prepare it each day.this is wrong. A multiclass wizard can only add spells to their spellbook based on what they can ask from their Wizard class level. Not based on what spells slots they get total.

[Sariel Vailo]

Ive had dms rule it both ways due to a failure on raw in that category. Thats a rai not raw interpretation

[Tanarii]

Ive had dms rule it both ways due to a failure on raw in that category. Thats a rai not raw interpretation
RAW and RAI are quite clear. Wizards spell books work like any other mulitclassing spells prepared/known, and are limited by the class level, not character level or Spellcasting feature levels.

Your DMs who ruled otherwise were house ruling.

[Sariel Vailo]

RAW and RAI are quite clear. Wizards spell books work like any other mulitclassing spells prepared/known, and are limited by the class level, not character level or Spellcasting feature levels.

Your DMs who ruled otherwise were house ruling.
All right show me ill go get my phb and read evey page number you quote.

[Tanarii]

RAW:
PHB 164, Spellcasting, Spells Known and Prepared. You determine what spells you know and can prepare for each class individually, as if you were a single classed-member of that class.

RAI from JC:
http://www.sageadvice.eu/2014/09/19/multiclass-caster-spellbook/

Edit: further RAW, PHB errata:
Your Spellbook (p. 114). The spells cop- ied into a spellbook must be of a spell level the wizard can prepare.
https://media.wizards.com/2016/downloads/DND/PH-Errata-V1.pdf