Optimization 5e Healer Build [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

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Oerlaf

2017-07-13, 04:57 AM

Aaron Underhand

2017-07-13, 05:38 AM

PeteNutButter

2017-07-13, 06:24 AM

I'd avoid the cleric warlock build in AL, even though I've played it at level 3 more than once. (It's a great way to pull your rag tag party out of the crapper at low level.) Most AL mods don't have enough fights to exhaust all your slots on a full caster, provided you are half-decent about when to use them. It's easy to burn through 2 short rest slots though.

As for the beacon of hope spell. It'd be nice if it was a bonus action to cast, lasted longer, or wasn't concentration. As it stands it'll probably wasted more often than not.

Let's look at Beacon of Hope on a level 5 life cleric. It effectively takes the time of a 3rd level cure wounds which could have healed 3d8+9 (22.5) at level 5. It then pumps up your next healing spell, a 3rd level cure wounds to max for 33 healing. That's not paying for itself. By your third turn in combat you could cast another cure wounds, lets say second level since you are now out of third level slots. This one would heal for 24 instead of a normal average of 17. By round three the beacon has effectively healed 18 damage (which is less than the cure wounds would have healed). Yes, it could get better at higher level.

It has some strength in taking away the variability from your healing, so you can better predict the appropriate spell to use. It's viable if you are facing a foe that will spam wisdom saves, and better if more people in the party can heal.
If you ask me these strengths are usually going to be outweighed by its weaknesses:

-Casting the spell presumes that you have absolutely nothing better to do than heal for at least the first 3 rounds of combat. That is almost surely false. What if no one takes damage? What if you could end the fight with Banishment?

-Healing in combat is hard on resources and is hard to keep people up. By tier 2+ it isn't uncommon for tough monsters to put out 40+ damage a round. It's much easier to healing word your ally back to his feet afterwards than to try and heal him enough to keep going. (Caveat: healing raging barbarians is usually just fine as it's effectively x2.) Devoting your entire build to healing and then not being able to keep people up will undoubtedly just make you frustrated.

-One of the best spells for a mid level cleric is mass healing word. It's a bonus action to cast and gets everyone in the party back on their feet. Since the spell is only 1d4+mod Beacon of hope adds 3 healing per person. That's hardly effective.

Overall I'd rate the spell solidly below average for it's level. A good spirit guardians can effectively heal more by killing foes faster and preventing damage the party could have taken. A bless spell can make the party kill foes faster and boost those wisdom saves.

Lord Il Palazzo

2017-07-13, 06:25 AM

For raw healing power, a Life Cleric would be hard to top (plus they get Beacon of Hope as a domain spell so you would never have to prepare it).

You might consider taking Variant Human to start your career with the Magic Initiate feat to gain a daily use of the Goodberry spell which combines very well with the Life Cleric's Disciple of Life feature to pump out 3 extra HP of healing for each of ten berries; pretty good for a first level spell. As for the feat's cantrips, Shillelagh would give you a good melee option without needing to invest heavily in strength or dexterity and picking a druid cantrip gives you opportunity to take Guidance (always good), Resistance (situational, but fits the preventing damage mindset) or maybe Thorn Whip ("Get away from him!").

There's a part of me that wants to suggest squeezing in three levels of sorcerer to be able to use metamagic but I'm not sure how good an idea it is. In concept, being able to cast a twinned Cure Wounds in a crisis (like of two people go down to an AoE attack) sounds nice, but I doubt it would be worth the investment in practice.

Citan

2017-07-13, 06:59 AM

Because the players in AL will soon no longer be able to come back from the dead and the Meatgrinder mode putting death save DC to 15 (up from 10), I want to find some heavy healing and damage mitigating build.

The problem is that Xanathar book schedules much later than the new season starts, so I am stuck with current AL-legal material.

I found Cleric 4/Warlock 16 build on YouTube but I don't know if it is going to be as valuable given the circumstances.

I personally think that the Beacon of Hope spell is going to become a must-have spell with the Death Curse on its way.

Yes, it eats your Concentration, but since I am going to build a clear healer (much like holy priest in WoW) this is going to be better.

What do you think?
Life Cleric 5 / Druid 1 / Draconic Sorcerer 4+ / Tome Warlock 5+
Start Draconic Sorcerer > Life Cleric > Druid 1 > Warlock 2.
At low levels, any "downtime day" before an adventuring one, take as many short rests as you can, blowing all on Life Goodberries. When you get 2nd level Cleric spells and Metamagic, pick Extended to cast Aid just before a long rest.
Once you get 3rd level, cast Beacon of Hope just before taking a short rest.

Advantage of this build is the number of buff/healing spells available, and great offense to go with. Two big drawbacks: never access to Raise Dead, feels clunky to level.

Simpler build : Life Cleric 1 / Sorcerer 1+ / Lore Bard 13+. Just grab Warding Bond, Aid, and any other good Cleric spell with Magic Secrets. Grab one or several Sorcerer spells if you want Shield and Metamagics, otherwise don't bother (I'd advise starting Sorcerer just for the Constitution proficiency for concentration saves though).

These are the two that went through my mind immediately. However, I'm not familiar at all with the particularities of the campaign you are talking about (I'm puzzled in particular with what you say about characters not able to come back from the dead: so even Revivify and Raise Dead wouldn't work?)...

Obviously for both builds, you just HAVE TO grab Inspiring Leader AND Healer feats. There are that good. ;)

I'd avoid the cleric warlock build in AL, even though I've played it at level 3 more than once. (It's a great way to pull your rag tag party out of the crapper at low level.) Most AL mods don't have enough fights to exhaust all your slots on a full caster, provided you are half-decent about when to use them. It's easy to burn through 2 short rest slots though.

As for the beacon of hope spell. It'd be nice if it was a bonus action to cast, lasted longer, or wasn't concentration. As it stands it'll probably wasted more often than not.

Let's look at Beacon of Hope on a level 5 life cleric. It effectively takes the time of a 3rd level cure wounds which could have healed 3d8+9 (22.5) at level 5. It then pumps up your next healing spell, a 3rd level cure wounds to max for 33 healing. That's not paying for itself. By your third turn in combat you could cast another cure wounds, lets say second level since you are now out of third level slots. This one would heal for 24 instead of a normal average of 17. By round three the beacon has effectively healed 18 damage (which is less than the cure wounds would have healed). Yes, it could get better at higher level.

It has some strength in taking away the variability from your healing, so you can better predict the appropriate spell to use. It's viable if you are facing a foe that will spam wisdom saves, and better if more people in the party can heal.
If you ask me these strengths are usually going to be outweighed by its weaknesses:

-Casting the spell presumes that you have absolutely nothing better to do than heal for at least the first 3 rounds of combat. That is almost surely false. What if no one takes damage? What if you could end the fight with Banishment?

-Healing in combat is hard on resources and is hard to keep people up. By tier 2+ it isn't uncommon for tough monsters to put out 40+ damage a round. It's much easier to healing word your ally back to his feet afterwards than to try and heal him enough to keep going. (Caveat: healing raging barbarians is usually just fine as it's effectively x2.) Devoting your entire build to healing and then not being able to keep people up will undoubtedly just make you frustrated.

-One of the best spells for a mid level cleric is mass healing word. It's a bonus action to cast and gets everyone in the party back on their feet. Since the spell is only 1d4+mod Beacon of hope adds 3 healing per person. That's hardly effective.

Overall I'd rate the spell solidly below average for it's level. A good spirit guardians can effectively heal more by killing foes faster and preventing damage the party could have taken. A bless spell can make the party kill foes faster and boost those wisdom saves.
You totally missed the point of Beacon of Hope. Like, wow.
Either you use it for a tough fight in which WIS targeting spells against your party are common, or you think there will be several people downed without you having the time to get them back up immediately (although I honestly don't think of many situations like this).

Or you use it just before the start/end of a short rest because it affects...
- your own healing spells,
- other people's healing spells,
- other people's healing features that have a roll (like your own Channel Divinity, or UA Warlock's healing),
- other people's self-heal feature with Hit Dice mechanic,
- any magic item that provide healing (including magic potions of healing),
- any other way to restore Hit Points (like Healer's Kit with Healer's feat).
Let's not forget that while we tend here to always speak with average rolls because it's just much simpler like that, crap rolls can always happen. And it can be pretty frustrating especially at low level. Beacon of Hope is an easy way to plain remove that risk. :)

Even in some other fights, it *may* be worth it (although only in niche situations I'd say, because Clerics have so many good concentration spells) if you know your fellows will have to heal themselves with "rolling heal" (especially a Thief with healer's feat or if DM allows him to use Potions of Healing in spite of this not being RAI).

Oerlaf

2017-07-13, 07:08 AM

These are the two that went through my mind immediately. However, I'm not familiar at all with the particularities of the campaign you are talking about (I'm puzzled in particular with what you say about characters not able to come back from the dead: so even Revivify and Raise Dead wouldn't work?)...

The new, 7th season of Adventurer's League introduces the concept of Death Curse. During that season no magic that can raise a character from the dead (not even wish or true ressurection) is effective and any character that has been killed at least once before becomes to rot slowly. The lore reason is that a lich Acererak acquired a dreadful artifact called the Soulmonger.

DivisibleByZero

2017-07-13, 07:18 AM

Healer feat. The ability all day every combat to get someone back to one HP from unconscious is fantastic.

A Rogue thief can arguably do it as a bonus action...

It's not debatable. It has been confirmed as both RAW and RAI.

Citan

2017-07-13, 07:23 AM

The new, 7th season of Adventurer's League introduces the concept of Death Curse. During that season no magic that can raise a character from the dead (not even wish or true ressurection) is effective and any character that has been killed at least once before becomes to rot slowly. The lore reason is that a lich Acererak acquired a dreadful artifact called the Soulmonger.
oO!! I'd be too much of a coward to risk anything else than a fresh character in that kind of games. :smallbiggrin:

That makes hp recovery and cushioning that much more important.
I stress my previous post then: Inspiring Leader + Extended Aid as a cushion (although the latter will definitely come late), Healer's feat for low-cost healing somewhere later (I'd actually advise every member of a party to take it XD), and as many Life Goodberries as possible to keep your slots just for emergency Healing Words.
While you couldn't obviously stack many during an adventuring day, I really see no argument for any reasonable DM to prevent you from taking like 8 short rest in a day you spend into town preparing for the next big challenge (after all, if it really bothers it, it could just give you incentive to do something else, or just make the world run in such a manner that your group cannot afford a full day of preparation in the first place).
A Variant Human could do well here (Inspiring Leader right off the bat), or a Half-Elf (start with 14 CON, WIS, DEX, 16 CHA).
Sanctuary and Warding Bond shouldn't be underestimated either. :)

Sir cryosin

2017-07-13, 07:39 AM

Let just keep it simple v-human feat healer go life cleric focus on these stats in order wis, chr, str, con, dex, int. Pick up the inspiring leader feat. The inspiring leader feat gives a good buffer of temp hp. Fall on using healer feat as first thing to use with healing. Then fall back on class healing leaving spell slots last. Take short rest when ever you can it recharge your healer feat and you can spend hit dice.

The best healer in d&d is the player knowing how to manage there resources. I know everyone say this but a healer is not there to kiss and heal the party's boo boo's. A heal is there to keep the party alive.

PeteNutButter

2017-07-13, 10:06 AM

You totally missed the point of Beacon of Hope. Like, wow.
Either you use it for a tough fight in which WIS targeting spells against your party are common, or you think there will be several people downed without you having the time to get them back up immediately (although I honestly don't think of many situations like this).

Bless and Mass Healing Word are superior in most cases. The Mass Healing gets them up immediately and the bless helps them kill faster, especially if you have allies with GWM/SS.

Or you use it just before the start/end of a short rest because it affects...

This is why I suggested it'd be better if it had a longer duration. If your DM lets you cast at the exact moment you would regain hit dice then it's helpful, but still might not be as good as a prayer of healing. A d10 class would have to spend 6 or more hit dice on the short rest to get more healing than a 3rd level prayer of healing would give him, from a life cleric. It's actually a bit ironic that the spell is worse on a life cleric as it provides a smaller % increase to overall healing power since more of his healing is not variable, all while the spell itself draws no benefit from the domain feature.

Let's not forget that while we tend here to always speak with average rolls because it's just much simpler like that, crap rolls can always happen. And it can be pretty frustrating especially at low level. Beacon of Hope is an easy way to plain remove that risk. :)

Of course averaging rolls is a simplification, but it allows us to quickly compare if option A is better than option B. If we ignore the math and just hate bad rolls, then Savage Attacker is a good feat. The math tells us it just isn't.

Even in some other fights, it *may* be worth it (although only in niche situations I'd say, because Clerics have so many good concentration spells) if you know your fellows will have to heal themselves with "rolling heal" (especially a Thief with healer's feat or if DM allows him to use Potions of Healing in spite of this not being RAI).

I see it being most useful in parties with more than one good healer, like maybe a bard and a cleric. Or even better if the paladin casts it so the cleric can use it, etc. I didn't say it was useless, just below average.

Also, I didn't see anyone mention the classic Life Cleric 1/Lore Bard x for stealing aura of vitality. Great healer there, although doesn't come online until level 7.

Citan

2017-07-14, 03:23 PM

Bless and Mass Healing Word are superior in most cases. The Mass Healing gets them up immediately and the bless helps them kill faster, especially if you have allies with GWM/SS.

Yes, of course Beacon of Hope is much more situational in his buff benefits. But it's times better than Bless in those situations, the situations in which you expect many Wisdom saves (Bless is up to 3 people, for +2 average. BoH is advantage, no limit on number of creatures). And it lasts one minute, contrarily to Mass Healing Words. And it doesn't require exact positioning to get the most of it, contrarily to Mass Healing Words. So you get much more freedom in how to act and react during that tough fight when you may end separated from your pals or have no way to use Healing Words on them for any reason (and using Mass Healing Words is really a waste of slot if you cannot get at least 4 creatures within it).

This is why I suggested it'd be better if it had a longer duration. If your DM lets you cast at the exact moment you would regain hit dice then it's helpful, but still might not be as good as a prayer of healing. A d10 class would have to spend 6 or more hit dice on the short rest to get more healing than a 3rd level prayer of healing would give him, from a life cleric. It's actually a bit ironic that the spell is worse on a life cleric as it provides a smaller % increase to overall healing power since more of his healing is not variable, all while the spell itself draws no benefit from the domain feature.

And yet you miss again the true value of the spell, by leaps and bounds.
First: "a d10 class would have to spend 6 or more hit dice to get more healing than a 3rd level prayer of healing).
3rd level prayer of healing: 3d8+4 (level 5 Cleric)+5(Life benefit) = average 9+3*4,5 = 23,5. With Beacon of Hope, your d10 class would have to spend TWO DICE, NOT 6, to best that: 2*(1d10+2) (supposedly 14 starting CON) = 24.
Max roll of Prayer of Healing? 33. With Beacon of Hope, the D10 class would have to spend JUST ANOTHER ONE to best that.

Let's not forget potions of healing, Healer's Feat that you (or others) have ample time to apply during the Beacon of Hope's timelapse, and any other spell other casters may use too (absolutely marvelous for other caster's Cure Wounds or Aura of Vitality or Prayer of Healing), or non-spell features. Each consecutive resource spent improves the return of investment.

Beacon of Hope is a great spell because it maximizes the effect of any resource. And everyone in the party is supposed to use their own resources over the course of the day: no Cleric is supposed to be a plain healbot "just because he's a Cleric". And if you are not a healbot, you want to keep as many slots as possible for buff/offense/emergency (Mass) Healing Words, so you want your allies to use their own resources during short rests. Especially the "hit dice mechanic", which would otherwise be a plain wasted resource. Maximizing their own healing means in turn lesser chance to have to blow emergency healing in the next fight, while keeping your own mid-/high level slots for Spiritual Weapon / Spirit Guardians. Of course, for that to be the most efficient, you do have to coordinate with the party. :)

I see it being most useful in parties with more than one good healer, like maybe a bard and a cleric. Or even better if the paladin casts it so the cleric can use it, etc. I didn't say it was useless, just below average.

I'd say it's on the contrary much more useful in parties with little healing, where maximizing every little thing is important. Very especially in the first half of leveling. Or in parties with noone having decent WIS saves or having any defense against fright, charm or dominate effect to quote a few.
Although obviously it pairs well with Aura of Vitality and such other spells. ;=)

PeteNutButter

2017-07-14, 04:36 PM

Yes, of course Beacon of Hope is much more situational in his buff benefits. But it's times better than Bless in those situations, the situations in which you expect many Wisdom saves (Bless is up to 3 people, for +2 average. BoH is advantage, no limit on number of creatures). And it lasts one minute, contrarily to Mass Healing Words. And it doesn't require exact positioning to get the most of it, contrarily to Mass Healing Words. So you get much more freedom in how to act and react during that tough fight when you may end separated from your pals or have no way to use Healing Words on them for any reason (and using Mass Healing Words is really a waste of slot if you cannot get at least 4 creatures within it).

For a third level slot bless can get 5 people. It is potentially useful for everyone offensively. Mass Healing word is a great way to pick up multiple party members, and has a pretty big range of 60 feet. Even if it only picks up 2 allies, it's totally worth it if it means the difference of them acting on their turn or rolling death saves.

And yet you miss again the true value of the spell, by leaps and bounds.
First: "a d10 class would have to spend 6 or more hit dice to get more healing than a 3rd level prayer of healing).
3rd level prayer of healing: 3d8+4 (level 5 Cleric)+5(Life benefit) = average 9+3*4,5 = 23,5. With Beacon of Hope, your d10 class would have to spend TWO DICE, NOT 6, to best that: 2*(1d10+2) (supposedly 14 starting CON) = 24.
Max roll of Prayer of Healing? 33. With Beacon of Hope, the D10 class would have to spend JUST ANOTHER ONE to best that.

The spell does not give the fighter those hit dice. You are counting it as if its giving him the full benefit of the hit die. It only increases his average of 5.5 on the die to 10, a 4.5 increase on average. Excepting a barbarian, the rest of the party gets even less out of it: D8 hit die classes gain 3.5 average and the D6 guys only gain 2.5. So if you average the party hit die to roughly 1d8. Each person in the party needs to expend 7 hit dice (23.5/3.5) to gain more from the spell. Then of course they are down hit dice that could have been saved for a later short rest. Oh but it also adds 3 healing on average to your healing potions... We are talking about burning a lot of resources to make a spell close to viable when a different spell could just have healed.

I'd say it's on the contrary much more useful in parties with little healing, where maximizing every little thing is important. Very especially in the first half of leveling. Or in parties with noone having decent WIS saves or having any defense against fright, charm or dominate effect to quote a few.
Although obviously it pairs well with Aura of Vitality and such other spells. ;=)

You literally say the exact opposite of this above in the same post:
"Let's not forget potions of healing, Healer's Feat that you (or others) have ample time to apply during the Beacon of Hope's timelapse, and any other spell other casters may use too (absolutely marvelous for other caster's Cure Wounds or Aura of Vitality or Prayer of Healing), or non-spell features. Each consecutive resource spent improves the return of investment."

I appreciate your defense of the spell, but it remains below average.

Zardnaar

2017-07-14, 05:26 PM

From low levels life cleric 1/land Druid xyz and you have the option of throwing around lightning bolt etc.

From level 7 life cleric 1/lore bard 6 with goodberry and aura of vitality is good. Healer ferat or ideally healer + thief.

bid

2017-07-14, 05:42 PM

And yet you miss again the true value of the spell, by leaps and bounds.
First: "a d10 class would have to spend 6 or more hit dice to get more healing than a 3rd level prayer of healing).
3rd level prayer of healing: 3d8+4 (level 5 Cleric)+5(Life benefit) = average 9+3*4,5 = 23,5. With Beacon of Hope, your d10 class would have to spend TWO DICE, NOT 6, to best that: 2*(1d10+2) (supposedly 14 starting CON) = 24.
Max roll of Prayer of Healing? 33. With Beacon of Hope, the D10 class would have to spend JUST ANOTHER ONE to best that.
2 HD without BoH: 2d10 ~ 11
2 HD with BoH: 2d10 = 20
BoH adds 9 hp
So, PoH3 23.5 / 4.5 = 5.22 HD spent

BoH lasts 1 minute and roughly doubles your healing. As long as your party needs more than 2 * 23.5 = 47 hp, BoH comes up ahead. You have 1 minute to chug healing pots and spend short-rest HDs.