I'm trying to make my character to the most damage possible

[RubyDragon870]

The most damage i was able to do was with a soulknife7/psion1 and i was doing 6d6+2d4 attacks twice a turn is there any way to do this without psionics and possibly even more damage

[eggynack]

There're more damaging crazy optimal builds out there, but uberchargers are decent first order answers to this sort of question. The number to beat is 26 damage twice a round. Start with water orc as the race and a base strength of 18, meaning 22 strength, along with a greatsword, leaving us with 2d6+9. Make the character a barbarian with whirling frenzy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/classFeatureVariants.htm#rageVariantWhirlingFrenzy ) and spirit lion totem from complete champion (which gives pounce). That means the barbarian hits twice a turn at full BAB even at first level, and with +4 strength at that, making the attack routine 2d6+12 x2. So, we're already at 19 damage per attack. Add power attack, along with shock trooper from complete warrior and we're adding 16 damage (because this is level eight), meaning 2d6+26. So, we're already far surpassing the base figure, especially because the charger can do this on a charge, with two attacks at full BAB and one on the second iterative, with each attack near certainly possessing higher to-hit than the soulknife equivalent.

That's just the start, too. This build has used three feats, which is all of them, but they've only really made use of one level, that barbarian level, with the other seven being anything with full BAB, or even something without that if good enough. Another barbarian level gets improved trip from wolf totem (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#wolfTotemClassFeatures ), two fighter levels get us two more feats for maybe knock-down (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#knockDown) and something else, where that something else can be a charge multiplier like leap attack from complete adventurer. Swap the greatsword for a guisarme, losing two damage for reach and tripping capacity, and suddenly you're doing an attack+trip+attack in place of each of those attacks. And we still have three levels left. So, maybe a warblade dip, or even a cloistered cleric dip to pick up some complete champion devotions? Lotsa options, some heavily damage boosting.

I could keep going, but that's what a reasonably optimal charging build can pull off in a round.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Infinity. It's possible to do literally infinity damage with a 3.5 character. Crusaders get the Aura of Chaos stance (at I think level 12...? Don't remember off the top of my head), which says that if they roll the maximum number on a damage die, they can roll again and add the new result. Then you take a level of Cleric and the Imbued Healing feat, one of the benefits of which is that after casting a healing spell on yourself, you can reroll any 1's on a damage die.

Now get yourself small enough (be a Halfling and use Reduce Person, say) that your dagger does 1d2 damage.

If you roll a 1, reroll. If you roll a 2, add it to your total damage and roll again. Neither ability has a limit; you will do a mathematical infinite amount of damage.

[eggynack]

Yeah, lightning maces kinda gets there too, which is a combo setup where you get two extra attacks when you land a critical hit and get yourself to over a 50% chance of doing that. You're not 100% likely to go infinite, but at over 50% there is some probability, defined by starting attacks combined with odds of critting, that you will continue attacking a literally infinite amount of times.

[Hackulator]

Yeah, lightning maces kinda gets there too, which is a combo setup where you get two extra attacks when you land a critical hit and get yourself to over a 50% chance of doing that. You're not 100% likely to go infinite, but at over 50% there is some probability, defined by starting attacks combined with odds of critting, that you will continue attacking a literally infinite amount of times.

If you do not have a 100% chance of critting there is zero chance you will attack an infinite number of times, unless there is some other ability you are adding on top which allows you to get around that somehow.

Also what are the restrictions here? I mean, with a 2 headed Anthropomorphic squid I can do insane damage at ECL 8.

[eggynack]

If you do not have a 100% chance of critting there is zero chance you will attack an infinite number of times, unless there is some other ability you are adding on top which allows you to get around that somehow.
Untrue. As long as you're getting extra attacks when you crit instead of breaking even, and as long as you cross the threshold of 50%, there exists some probability of going actually infinite. It's mathematical truth. Could probably get you a citation, but I've gotta tell you that this is not a new conversation.

Edit: Just remembered that I started a thread when I found this out, making the search for the information trivial. Here's the thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?502881-Lightning-Mace-and-Actual-Infinity). Here's the math textbook that has the information on page 48 (https://services.math.duke.edu/~rtd/EOSP/EOSP2E.pdf)

[RubyDragon870]

Also what are the restrictions here? I mean, with a 2 headed Anthropomorphic squid I can do insane damage at ECL 8.

Basically no psionics and i have to use a race without an ecl but other than that there isnt any

[Hackulator]

Untrue. As long as you're getting extra attacks when you crit instead of breaking even, and as long as you cross the threshold of 50%, there exists some probability of going actually infinite. It's mathematical truth. Could probably get you a citation, but I've gotta tell you that this is not a new conversation.

Whoever did that math is bad at math. As the number of attacks approaches infinity, the chance of a massive streak of non-crits approaches 100%, as so there is no chance of an infinite number of hits.

[eggynack]

Whoever did that math is bad at math. As the number of attacks approaches infinity, the chance of a massive streak of non-crits approaches 100%, as so there is no chance of an infinite number of hits.
Your intuition is actually mistaken here, in addition to your math, in particular because you haven't defined "massive streak". Because the chance of critting is above 50%, and because there's a gain in attacks when that happens (which is equal to the loss of attacks without a crit), the character's number of attacks is probablistically higher the more attacks they've already made. This means that the necessary quantity of crit failures increases as the chain of attacks continues. The chance of hitting any arbitrary quantity of non-crits in a row is indeed 100%, but the odds that that ever occurs before you'd need more crits than that is decidedly not. Again, I refer you to the math textbook explicitly saying I'm correct about this. This isn't the sort of thing where you need two sources.

[Fouredged Sword]

Untrue. As long as you're getting extra attacks when you crit instead of breaking even, and as long as you cross the threshold of 50%, there exists some probability of going actually infinite. It's mathematical truth. Could probably get you a citation, but I've gotta tell you that this is not a new conversation.

Edit: Just remembered that I started a thread when I found this out, making the search for the information trivial. Here's the thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?502881-Lightning-Mace-and-Actual-Infinity). Here's the math textbook that has the information on page 48 (https://services.math.duke.edu/~rtd/EOSP/EOSP2E.pdf)

Yes, mathematically there is a chance you could go infinite. That chance is zero. .9 repeating is the chance the combo will eventually end. One would think that there is some non-zero chance of infinite, but the weird thing is .9 repeating is mathematically impossible to separate from zero, therefore is zero. If you preform a mathematical proof using .999 you get the same result as if you used 1.

[JKTrickster]

Whoever did that math is bad at math. As the number of attacks approaches infinity, the chance of a massive streak of non-crits approaches 100%, as so there is no chance of an infinite number of hits.

What? No.

Even if the chances of a massive streak of non-crits approaches 100%, you need to prove that massive streak of non-crits prevents infinity.

A massive streak of non-crits would probably end infinite at the very beginning (so no extra attacks at all). But if it occurs later, then the massive streak must be large enough to use up all of the bonus attacks (of which you get 2 for every 1 crit threat).

It obvious that there is a less-than-100% chance of infinite attacks with Lightning-Maces-Roundabout-Kick-Aptitude-Kukris but a string of "non crits" doesn't necessarily mean that there is 0% chance of infinite attacks.

[eggynack]

Yes, mathematically there is a chance you could go infinite. That chance is zero. .9 repeating is the chance the combo will eventually end. One would think that there is some non-zero chance of infinite, but the weird thing is .9 repeating is mathematically impossible to separate from zero, therefore is zero. If you preform a mathematical proof using .999 you get the same result as if you used 1.
Again, no. You are just straight up wrong on this. The odds don't generally get even close to zero. They explode upwards to over 90% at a surprisingly low number of attacks. You are fighting a math war with a stochastics textbook. This is not a fight you are going to win.

Edit: For reference, the example used in the book is essentially 20/38 for the odds of critting, and 100 attacks to start with, and the odds of going actually infinite are 1-(2.656)10^-5. Crazy high odds.

[RubyDragon870]

Infinity. It's possible to do literally infinity damage with a 3.5 character. Crusaders get the Aura of Chaos stance (at I think level 12...? Don't remember off the top of my head), which says that if they roll the maximum number on a damage die, they can roll again and add the new result. Then you take a level of Cleric and the Imbued Healing feat, one of the benefits of which is that after casting a healing spell on yourself, you can reroll any 1's on a damage die.

Now get yourself small enough (be a Halfling and use Reduce Person, say) that your dagger does 1d2 damage.

If you roll a 1, reroll. If you roll a 2, add it to your total damage and roll again. Neither ability has a limit; you will do a mathematical infinite amount of damage.
You get the stance at six level making this even more powerful so early

[Hackulator]

What? No.

Even if the chances of a massive streak of non-crits approaches 100%, you need to prove that massive streak of non-crits prevents infinity.

A massive streak of non-crits would probably end infinite at the very beginning (so no extra attacks at all). But if it occurs later, then the massive streak must be large enough to use up all of the bonus attacks (of which you get 2 for every 1 crit threat).

It obvious that there is a less-than-100% chance of infinite attacks with Lightning-Maces-Roundabout-Kick-Aptitude-Kukris but a string of "non crits" doesn't necessarily mean that there is 0% chance of infinite attacks.

Ah ok, I understand, I missed that you were getting 2 free attacks because the original post only mentioned the lightning maces. How are you getting 2 free attacks though? Lightning maces only works when you hit with the maces, Roundabout Kick only works with unarmed.

[JKTrickster]

I think the idea is Aptitude Weapons works with both (although I'm not personally so sure about the RAW on that).

Theoretically it should? It's odd - the phrasing of Aptitude Weapons should allow for it if you consider Roundabout Kick a similar feat to Weapon Focus.

[Fouredged Sword]

No, he is using aptitude weapon cheese to apply both lightning maces and round house kick to kukris, a light 18-20 weapon. The idea being that aptitude weapon allows you to sub in kukris in any feat that specifies a specific weapon (mace and unarmed strike respectively.) This is not a universally accepted ruling.

Mix with disciple of dispatter and blood in the water and you eventually hit silly damage and to hit bonuses within a single round.

[eggynack]

Just remembered how that formula works. I was getting weirdly thrown by the simplified fractions. It's 1-(chance of not critting/chance of critting)^number of attacks to start with. So, with 55% critical hit odds, and four attacks to start with, you get 1-(45/55)^4, which is a 55.2% chance of going infinite. Five attacks gets 63.3%. Six gets 70%. Twenty starting attacks gets you a 98.2% chance of infinite attacks.

[Hackulator]

No, he is using aptitude weapon cheese to apply both lightning maces and round house kick to kukris, a light 18-20 weapon. The idea being that aptitude weapon allows you to sub in kukris in any feat that specifies a specific weapon (mace and unarmed strike respectively.) This is not a universally accepted ruling.

Mix with disciple of dispatter and blood in the water and you eventually hit silly damage and to hit bonuses within a single round.

Oh, well that ruling is just ridiculous, but ok. I would say even if you allowed someone to use a kukri to get the roundabout kick free attack, that attack is still a kick, which still breaks off the infinite attacks at the base.

[Darrin]

You get the stance at six level making this even more powerful so early

12th level, actually. A 6th level stance requires an Initiator Level of 11, but Crusaders get a new stance at 8th and 14th. However, you can cheese it down to a lower level if your DM is crazy enough to allow Bloodline levels.

[Grod_The_Giant]

12th level, actually. A 6th level stance requires an Initiator Level of 11, but Crusaders get a new stance at 8th and 14th. However, you can cheese it down to a lower level if your DM is crazy enough to allow Bloodline levels.
Correct-- maneuvers unlock at the same levels as spells, but Crusaders have a wonky progression.

At ecl 8... Well, there are theoretical optimization build that come online by then. I mean, you can go Pun-Pun as early as 1; I guarantee you can wish-loop your way to victory at 8th. Things like the Cancer Mae's arbitrarily high Strength score are well onto the table. Sliding down the scale a bit, you're probably looking at a charger build, like eggynack mentioned. Water Orc Whirling Frenzy Lion Totem Barbarian 1 is the base, with Power Attack, Leap Attack, and Shock Trooper (and Improved Bull Rush as the prerequisite) as key feats and a Valorous Weapon as a key item. Add them together and you can charge and make three attacks for double base weapon damage... and FOUR TIMES your power attack penalty (so, +32/hit), taking the penalty to your AC instead. You'll need a level of Fighter to afford all four feats, but that still leaves 6 levels to play with for stacking more damage. At this point, it's only 3x(2d6+52) or so, if my math is correct.

[Fouredged Sword]

Or you can do a mounted pounce lance charger. A mounted lance wielding barbarian can do silly damage with a two handed lance.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Or you can do a mounted pounce lance charger. A mounted lance wielding barbarian can do silly damage with a two handed lance.
Maybe. The question is which method has more multipliers, because I think they're not all compatible. (For instance, Leap Attack probably doesn't work with a horse)

[Wraith]

"Infinity damage" is always a thing, but it seems unfair; if you're asked "how much damage can you do?" then I feel that giving the answer as "all of it" is somewhat more facetious than a solid, quantifiable number

I say this because I have a specific number in mind that may or may not qualify as the highest amount of quantifiable damage: 685 quintillion (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=2010735&postcount=38). That's one of my favourite threads on this forum, and I make no apology for bringing it up at any occasion. :smalltongue:

[Grod_The_Giant]

"Infinity damage" is always a thing, but it seems unfair; if you're asked "how much damage can you do?" then I feel that giving the answer as "all of it" is somewhat more facetious than a solid, quantifiable number

I say this because I have a specific number in mind that may or may not qualify as the highest amount of quantifiable damage: 685 quintillion (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=2010735&postcount=38). That's one of my favourite threads on this forum, and I make no apology for bringing it up at any occasion. :smalltongue:
That's an arguable* winner for simplicity:damage, but (as usual) the old Wizards CharOp builds have you beat (http://secretsofthearchmages.net/Threads/WOTC/2008/D20%20Design%20-%20Theoritical%20Optimization/573196.html). By orders of magnitude. Like, so much that they could not express the number with exponents anymore. (Scroll down to the post that starts "note:Final routine lower in the post." No, I don't under stand what they're doing either)


*Because you'll have to argue with your DM over whether or not antimatter exists in 3.5, and if so how it works.

[Gruftzwerg]

As others have pointed out, there is the "D2 crusader" that has infinite dmg. But imho, in 3.5 you don't really need infinite/max. dmg. You just need "enough dmg" to 1hit any possible enemy that might occur (on your party lvl range). That's imho the best ways to optimize a build that you can later have fun with.
Once you have enough dmg in your build, other tings get more important. Further, how is the dmg applied? Is it a reliable DMG source/build or not (e.g. Crit or Charge builds)? Can you make it more reliable?
Or what other good (non dmg) stuff could be useful in the build?

My suggestion would be to choose one of the common dmg combos/builds and tailor a good build around it. If you need inspiration, have a look at my signature builds (beside from the first and the last build, all others are ubercharger builds/variants).

[ATHATH]

The most damage i was able to do was with a soulknife7/psion1 and i was doing 6d6+2d4 attacks twice a turn is there any way to do this without psionics and possibly even more damage
Eheheheheh.... You'd better prepare yourself, boy, because you've just pulled the forbidden fruit of character optimization from the tree, and you're about to take a mighty big bite. Don't worry; us snakes of the playground will guide you into using your newfound knowledge wisely. But for now... Just try not to bring in characters of a grossly inappropriate power level (high or low) to your games. Despite how tempting it might be to bring a 1d2 Crusader to the table to show up the blaster Wizard, it never ends well- trust me.