The incubation period of Sphinx Pox

[napoleon_in_rag]

So in 1081, Hel say's Belkar's cat contracted Sphinx Pox in desert and that the disease has a incubation period of 5 weeks.

Shouldn't Belkars cat be dead or showing some serious symptoms? Shouldn't some of the others be talking in riddles? I mean it feels like a lot more than 5 weeks have gone by in OOTS time.

[woweedd]

Um...It's only been,like, 10 days. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0937.html)

[knag]

So in 1081, Hel say's Belkar's cat contracted Sphinx Pox in desert and that the disease has a incubation period of 5 weeks.

Shouldn't Belkars cat be dead or showing some serious symptoms? Shouldn't some of the others be talking in riddles? I mean it feels like a lot more than 5 weeks have gone by in OOTS time.

Hel states that Mr. Scruffy contracted the virus in the desert, but didn't say when or where. The party first arrived in the desert of the Western Continent four weeks ago in-universe time, and left the desert one week ago. So 1-4 weeks have passed since Mr. Scruffy contracted the Sphinx Pox, short enough that no one should show symptoms yet. Further, Roy knows the Oracle's prophesy that Belkar will die before the next Southern New Year, and stated that would happen seven weeks from comic #666, giving Belkar about three weeks left to live at the current time. Thus the virus will take hold in 1-4 weeks, with Belkar dying in 3 weeks time. The Sphinx Pox's five week incubation period makes it a very likely candidate for the cause of Belkar's prophesied death.

[woweedd]

Hel states that Mr. Scruffy contracted the virus in the desert, but didn't say when or where. The party first arrived in the desert of the Western Continent four weeks ago in-universe time, and left the desert one week ago. So 1-4 weeks have passed since Mr. Scruffy contracted the Sphinx Pox, short enough that no one should show symptoms yet. Further, Roy knows the Oracle's prophesy that Belkar will die before the next Southern New Year, and stated that would happen seven weeks from comic #666, giving Belkar about three weeks left to live at the current time. Thus the virus will take hold in 1-4 weeks, with Belkar dying in 3 weeks time. The Sphinx Pox's five week incubation period makes it a very likely candidate for the cause of Belkar's prophesied death.
Hmmm..Nice theory but, assuming the Order gets their healer back fairly soon, diease won't be much of an issue.

[knag]

Hmmm..Nice theory but, assuming the Order gets their healer back fairly soon, diease won't be much of an issue.

You mean the one that they need to destroy in order to stop the vampire spirit controlling his corpse from making the gods destroy the world? That one?

And even assuming he is destroyed while leaving remains, who would cast Resurrection? Redcloak? Backtrack to Zenith peak to ask one of the High Priests?

And even assuming Greg is destroyed and Durkon is rezzed, who's to say he won't be all tied up with fighting Team Evil to cure the whole team, plus the crew of the Mechane? How many Remove Diseases would you prepare when going to fight a lich and a cleric?

And finally, ask your self this (meta) question: why is the Giant introducing this plot element at this time?

I'm not saying its a lock. Of course Durkon or O-Chul or Lien (remove disease ~3/week) or, heck, even MitD could cure them all, but the timing is too perfect for me, coupled with the fact that the vector is Belkar's beloved animal companion.

[137beth]

You mean the one that they need to destroy in order to stop the vampire spirit controlling his corpse from making the gods destroy the world? That one?

And even assuming he is destroyed while leaving remains, who would cast Resurrection? Redcloak? Backtrack to Zenith peak to ask one of the High Priests?

And even assuming Greg is destroyed and Durkon is rezzed, who's to say he won't be all tied up with fighting Team Evil to cure the whole team, plus the crew of the Mechane? How many Remove Diseases would you prepare when going to fight a lich and a cleric?

And finally, ask your self this (meta) question: why is the Giant introducing this plot element at this time?

I'm not saying its a lock. Of course Durkon or O-Chul or Lien (remove disease ~3/week) or, heck, even MitD could cure them all, but the timing is too perfect for me, coupled with the fact that the vector is Belkar's beloved animal companion.

Personally, I think that the cause of Belkar's death will be a lot more dramatic than "he got a disease that no one noticed that was introduced in a throwaway statement that sets up a punchline." Like, I think his death will be tied to fighting either HPoH or Xykon and Redcloak.

[woweedd]

Personally, I think that the cause of Belkar's death will be a lot more dramatic than "he got a disease that no one noticed that was introduced in a throwaway statement that sets up a punchline." Like, I think his death will be tied to fighting either HPoH or Xykon and Redcloak.
Heroic sacrifice, most likely. A final act of redemption AND a nicer parallel to Kraagor.

[napoleon_in_rag]

Um...It's only been,like, 10 days. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0937.html)

It was 10 days travel time from the desert to the Godsmoot. Figure 1 day for the godsmoot. Several days travel between the Godsmoot and the pass. 1 day fighting frost giants at the pass. So lets call it 14 days since they left the desert. I am not sure how long they were in the desert but 3-4 weeks is likely.

So the kitty could be showing symptoms any day. Anyone regularly exposed to the disease could start showing symptoms soon after that.

[woweedd]

It was 10 days travel time from the desert to the Godsmoot. Figure 1 day for the godsmoot. Several days travel between the Godsmoot and the pass. 1 day fighting frost giants at the pass. So lets call it 14 days since they left the desert. I am not sure how long they were in the desert but 3-4 weeks is likely.

So the kitty could be showing symptoms any day. Anyone regularly exposed to the disease could start showing symptoms soon after that.
Again, depends on when exactly the cat caught the disease. My bet is on the pyramid, myself. There were all sorts of bugs flying around that temple thanks to all the corpses. Who knows what they were carrying?

[Kantaki]

It was 10 days travel time from the desert to the Godsmoot. Figure 1 day for the godsmoot. Several days travel between the Godsmoot and the pass. 1 day fighting frost giants at the pass. So lets call it 14 days since they left the desert. I am not sure how long they were in the desert but 3-4 weeks is likely.

So the kitty could be showing symptoms any day. Anyone regularly exposed to the disease could start showing symptoms soon after that.

Less (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1077.html) than two weeks since they left the desert actually.
So unless they spend (almost) exactly three weeks in the desert Mr. Scruffy got infected right at the beginning of the trip he should be safe for now.
The Order and, even more so (and more importantly:smalltongue:), our favourite sky-pirates have even more time.
Especially since it is entirely possible Hel caused the mass-infection.
In that case everyone but the cat should have the full five weeks.
My guess would be that- assuming the plague even is a serious plotpoint (I doubt it) - everyone has about three-five weeks left.
Plenty of time to solve all more urgent problems and the disease.

[knag]

It was 10 days travel time from the desert to the Godsmoot. Figure 1 day for the godsmoot. Several days travel between the Godsmoot and the pass. 1 day fighting frost giants at the pass. So lets call it 14 days since they left the desert. I am not sure how long they were in the desert but 3-4 weeks is likely.

Pyramid to Godsmoot could be as little as four days. Greg states in #948 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0948.html) that he has been controlling Durkon for 3 days, so three days from the pyramid to that strip. #963 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0963.html) shows that the night passes before they reach Tinkertown. It's possible more days pass on that voyage, but I think the comic implies otherwise. Then, in #989 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0989.html), Roy states that the Godsmoot is the next day, so now we're at five days between Girard's Gate and Godsmoot. In #1050 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1050.html), Haley states that she got the Sending from Lien "last night", so that means the ambush in Passage Pass occurs the day following O-Chul and Lien's arrival at the North Pole, which is the same day as their fight with Oona on the ice. The cut between #1030 and 1031 might skip forward in time, or it might not, but we do know that the Mechane covered 830 miles in one day and the entire Pinnacle Mountain range is 2,000 miles long, so I doubt it would take several days to go from Zenith Peak to Passage Pass. So the minimum number of days from Girard's Pyramid to #1081 is only six days.

They were in the desert (from Sandsedge to the Gate) for about 3 weeks, according to this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?361715-Countdown-to-Belkar-s-Death-Scene), putting a 3 week uncertainty on how long the disease has been incubating.


Less (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1077.html) than two weeks since they left the desert actually.

Oooh, nice catch. Belkar's line implies that at least 7 days have passed since the battle with Tarquin, or else he would have said "weeks" instead of "fortnights". I'll up my estimate from 6 to 7!

[napoleon_in_rag]

Pyramid to Godsmoot could be as little as four days. Greg states in #948 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0948.html) that he has been controlling Durkon for 3 days, so three days from the pyramid to that strip. #963 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0963.html) shows that the night passes before they reach Tinkertown. It's possible more days pass on that voyage, but I think the comic implies otherwise. Then, in #989 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0989.html), Roy states that the Godsmoot is the next day, so now we're at five days between Girard's Gate and Godsmoot. In #1050 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1050.html), Haley states that she got the Sending from Lien "last night", so that means the ambush in Passage Pass occurs the day following O-Chul and Lien's arrival at the North Pole, which is the same day as their fight with Oona on the ice. The cut between #1030 and 1031 might skip forward in time, or it might not, but we do know that the Mechane covered 830 miles in one day and the entire Pinnacle Mountain range is 2,000 miles long, so I doubt it would take several days to go from Zenith Peak to Passage Pass. So the minimum number of days from Girard's Pyramid to #1081 is only six days.

They were in the desert (from Sandsedge to the Gate) for about 3 weeks, according to this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?361715-Countdown-to-Belkar-s-Death-Scene), putting a 3 week uncertainty on how long the disease has been incubating.


Oooh, nice catch. Belkar's line implies that at least 7 days have passed since the battle with Tarquin, or else he would have said "weeks" instead of "fortnights". I'll up my estimate from 6 to 7!

#937 says the Mechane can reach the Godsmoot in 8-10 days. Bottom left panel. It might take longer because the Mechane cannot go over 10,000 feet and has to weave its way through the mountains.

[knag]

#937 says the Mechane can reach the Godsmoot in 8-10 days. Bottom left panel. It might take longer because the Mechane cannot go over 10,000 feet and has to weave its way through the mountains.

No, Julio and Roy are talking about getting to Kraagor's Gate at the North Pole, clear on the other side of the mountains, not Godsmoot. Zenith Peak lies 830 miles north-by-northeast (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0987.html) from Tinkertown, and as I showed above (#989), they traveled there from Tinkertown overnight. It must lie on the southern side of the mountains, or else they wouldn't need to run the Pass to get to Firmament. It was Greg's idea to go to Godsmoot, and he didn't propose it until after they struck out on Resurrections at T-town. And it took them four days from where they left Julio to get to T-Town, so that means running the whole of Passage pass and then up to the Pole should only take another four days (depending on the urgency of the situation, since the Mechane always arrives in the nick of time :smallwink:)

[napoleon_in_rag]

Now that I think about it, the whole discussion is moot. Cats, halflings, humans, elves, etc all have different DNA. So the same disease can not infect them all. With three exceptions:

1) As the vector, Belkar's kitty "could" bite another halfling with Sphinx Pox and then bite Belkar. This is how fleas and Mosquitos spread disease.

2) The Disease could mutate, allowing it to change species. This is how Swine Flue and Avian Flu works. I could see it shifting from one species to another. But one species to 4 or 5?

3) Hel made the disease infect multiple species. But if she is so powerful, why doesn't she also shorten the incubation period? That's a much more common mutation.

Yes, I am pushing science into a fantasy comic strip. But we are also pushing science by talking about the a mythical airship's transit speed.

[knag]

Now that I think about it, the whole discussion is moot. Cats, halflings, humans, elves, etc all have different DNA. So the same disease can not infect them all. With three exceptions:
[snip]
Yes, I am pushing science into a fantasy comic strip. But we are also pushing science by talking about the a mythical airship's transit speed.

I'm not pushing science so much as internal consistency. Hel said that they were all infected, so they are. Likewise, Greg and Bandana both say it took three days before the storm damages the ship, and Roy says the Godsmoot is the next day. I'm not putting any limits on the speed of the Mechane, I'm just saying that the statements made by the characters in-universe are true from their point of view.

[woweedd]

Now that I think about it, the whole discussion is moot. Cats, halflings, humans, elves, etc all have different DNA. So the same disease can not infect them all. With three exceptions:

1) As the vector, Belkar's kitty "could" bite another halfling with Sphinx Pox and then bite Belkar. This is how fleas and Mosquitos spread disease.

2) The Disease could mutate, allowing it to change species. This is how Swine Flue and Avian Flu works. I could see it shifting from one species to another. But one species to 4 or 5?

3) Hel made the disease infect multiple species. But if she is so powerful, why doesn't she also shorten the incubation period? That's a much more common mutation.

Yes, I am pushing science into a fantasy comic strip. But we are also pushing science by talking about the a mythical airship's transit speed.
Dude. Who says? I mean, in the real world, Dwarves, Elves, Halflings, ETC. are so similar to humans that they'd probably just be classed as sub-species, if that.

[napoleon_in_rag]

Dude. Who says? I mean, in the real world, Dwarves, Elves, Halflings, ETC. are so similar to humans that they'd probably just be classed as sub-species, if that.

But then you wouldn't have distinct races then. Because if your DNA is that close, you can mate. Beyond just half elves, you would have combos like 1/2 elf and 1/2 halfling or 1/2 dwarf and 1/2 human. You would have people who are 1/4 elvish, 1/4 dwarfish, 1/4 orc, and 1/4 human.

[napoleon_in_rag]

I'm not pushing science so much as internal consistency. Hel said that they were all infected, so they are.

But if Hel "said" they are infected and made the virus jump species, why didn't Hel just shorten the incubation period? Variances in incubation period is a relatively common mutation compared to a virus jumping species.

[KorvinStarmast]

And even assuming he is destroyed while leaving remains, who would cast Resurrection? Redcloak? Backtrack to Zenith peak to ask one of the High Priests? One of the priests of Thor or Odin in Dwarfland.

Personally, I think that the cause of Belkar's death will be a lot more dramatic than "he got a disease that no one noticed that was introduced in a throwaway statement that sets up a punchline." Like, I think his death will be tied to fighting either HPoH or Xykon and Redcloak. One of my favorite Fantasy/Swords and Sorcery protagonists ever ...
caught a disease that makes you bleed out of your eyes that had been foreshadowed two books previously


1) As the vector, Belkar's kitty "could" bite another halfling with Sphinx Pox and then bite Belkar. This is how fleas and Mosquitos spread disease.
2) The Disease could mutate, allowing it to change species. This is how Swine Flue and Avian Flu works. I could see it shifting from one species to another. But one species to 4 or 5?
3) Hel made the disease infect multiple species. But if she is so powerful, why doesn't she also shorten the incubation period? That's a much more common mutation. While I agree with your general point, Elan called and wanted to point out that science gets trumped by magic, no matter how often V makes the laws of Physics go and sit in the corner, cowering.

[georgie_leech]

Last I checked, in 3.5 the incubation period is the time during which the disease didn't actually do anything, no? Like, even if the disease is an actual threat, and it's the maximum of 4 weeks the cat has been infected, there wouldn't be any symptoms yet.

[woweedd]

But then you wouldn't have distinct races then. Because if your DNA is that close, you can mate. Beyond just half elves, you would have combos like 1/2 elf and 1/2 halfling or 1/2 dwarf and 1/2 human. You would have people who are 1/4 elvish, 1/4 dwarfish, 1/4 orc, and 1/4 human.
Yes, which is support for the theory that D&D writers do not know or care about how biology works.

[Kantaki]

But then you wouldn't have distinct races then. Because if your DNA is that close, you can mate.

What is this „DNA” you are talking about?
All that lives is clearly made from the four base elements- earth; air; water; fire and surprise- and the four humours, which have to be in balance for a being to stay healthy.:smalltongue:
Hey, this is still a fantasy comic.


Beyond just half elves, you would have combos like 1/2 elf and 1/2 halfling or 1/2 dwarf and 1/2 human. You would have people who are 1/4 elvish, 1/4 dwarfish, 1/4 orc, and 1/4 human.

I'm pretty sure all of those exist in some obscure sourcebook(s).
Half-dwarves for example are Mul and a bit of everything would be a mongrel-folk(?) or something like that.

[ORione]

Sphinxes have the head of a human and the body of a lion. Thus it makes perfect sense that both cats and humans are susceptible to Sphinx Pox.

[Jay R]

If the party were about to get the sphinx pox, then the comment, "My queen, that virus has an incubation period of five weeks," would be unnecessary.

And Hel's response, "If it loved me, it would replicate faster," would be meaningless.

[Goblin_Priest]

But then you wouldn't have distinct races then. Because if your DNA is that close, you can mate. Beyond just half elves, you would have combos like 1/2 elf and 1/2 halfling or 1/2 dwarf and 1/2 human. You would have people who are 1/4 elvish, 1/4 dwarfish, 1/4 orc, and 1/4 human.

Because that'd be a bitch to rule. Plus, "race" is a more refined grouping than species.

Besides, your logic is highly flawed. First of all, there's no rules in D&D, afaik, that limit which species diseases can spread to.

Second of all, many diseases to affect vastly different species. Tomato Ringspot Virus, for example... affects tomatoes, right?


HOSTS
In nature, TomRSV occurs mostly in woody and ornamental plants, rather than in herbaceous hosts, including raspberries, Rubus laciniatus , grapes, peaches, cherries and other Prunus spp., black currants, gooseberries, strawberries, Pelargonium , Hydrangea , Gladiolus and Fraxinus americana . The experimental host range is very wide, with species in more than 35 dicotyledonous and monocotyledonous families being susceptible. Many weeds such as Taraxacum officinale can constitute reservoirs for the disease. Stellaria media has been shown to carry symptomless infection.

In horticulture, there are a number of diseases that affect very different species. I'm not overly familiar on the zoosanitary side, but off the top of my head I can cite the Deformed Wing Virus, which affects mostly honey bees, but has also been reported in at least one bumble bee species, thus different species of a different genus.


But if Hel "said" they are infected and made the virus jump species, why didn't Hel just shorten the incubation period? Variances in incubation period is a relatively common mutation compared to a virus jumping species.

I'm guessing the disease was already made by then. Modifying it after the fact, to suit her specific needs, would be considered an illegal intervention.

[halfeye]

Because that'd be a bitch to rule. Plus, "race" is a more refined grouping than species.

Besides, your logic is highly flawed. First of all, there's no rules in D&D, afaik, that limit which species diseases can spread to.

Second of all, many diseases to affect vastly different species. Tomato Ringspot Virus, for example... affects tomatoes, right?



In horticulture, there are a number of diseases that affect very different species. I'm not overly familiar on the zoosanitary side, but off the top of my head I can cite the Deformed Wing Virus, which affects mostly honey bees, but has also been reported in at least one bumble bee species, thus different species of a different genus.



I'm guessing the disease was already made by then. Modifying it after the fact, to suit her specific needs, would be considered an illegal intervention.

Rabies infects most mammals in its region I think.

[Darth Tom]

Sphinxes have the head of a human and the body of a lion. Thus it makes perfect sense that both cats and humans are susceptible to Sphinx Pox.

That's the sort of attention to detail that makes OOTS so compelling.

[knag]

If the party were about to get the sphinx pox, then the comment, "My queen, that virus has an incubation period of five weeks," would be unnecessary.

And Hel's response, "If it loved me, it would replicate faster," would be meaningless.

They're not about to get it. They're going to get it in 3 weeks. Which is a really long time in-universe and, coincidentally, is when Belkar is going to die. In between now and then they will thwart Hel's plans to destroy the world, which is why Hel wants it to go faster. When it does kick in they will probably be at the climax of book 7 when they are attempting to defeat Xykon. And Belkar's heroic sacrifice which completes his redemption(ish) arc will be necessary because he can either save himself and Mr. Scruffy or save the world. At least that's my working theory. Now that I've posted it, something different will happen:smallwink:

[woweedd]

They're not about to get it. They're going to get it in 3 weeks. Which is a really long time in-universe and, coincidentally, is when Belkar is going to die. In between now and then they will thwart Hel's plans to destroy the world, which is why Hel wants it to go faster. When it does kick in they will probably be at the climax of book 7 when they are attempting to defeat Xykon. And Belkar's heroic sacrifice which completes his redemption(ish) arc will be necessary because he can either save himself and Mr. Scruffy or save the world. At least that's my working theory. Now that I've posted it, something different will happen:smallwink:
I...don't really see why the Sphinx Pox is necessary for Belkar to have a heroic sacrifice.

[Ruck]

But then you wouldn't have distinct races then. Because if your DNA is that close, you can mate. Beyond just half elves, you would have combos like 1/2 elf and 1/2 halfling or 1/2 dwarf and 1/2 human. You would have people who are 1/4 elvish, 1/4 dwarfish, 1/4 orc, and 1/4 human.

Is there any reason to think such combinations aren't possible?

[The MunchKING]

Is there any reason to think such combinations aren't possible?

In AD&D at least Elf-Dwarf kids were sterile. I don't know about other combos.

[Riftwolf]

I'm thinking this plot point might be indicative of how Hel got a bad deal. That the other Gods let her create a bunch of diseases, but didnt tell her they'd be using 3.5 rules, where non-magic diseases are too weak to be a major threat.

[Kish]

Cure Disease was a third-level spell in 1ed and 2ed, too.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Cure Disease was a third-level spell in 1ed and 2ed, too.

Also, world 2.0 was created as a 1ed ruleset, since Haley's dad was a 1ed thief.

GW

[hamishspence]

Given that Xykon is a Sorcerer (spontaneous caster, introduced in 3.0) and was one before Haley's dad was born, I wouldn't take the "1st edition thief" thing too seriously.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Given that Xykon is a Sorcerer (spontaneous caster, introduced in 3.0) and was one before Haley's dad was born, I wouldn't take the "1st edition thief" thing too seriously.

My headcanon is that the change was retroactive: once the edition changed, it changed backwards into the past as well, so by the time we learn of Xykon's backstory, it has been updated as well.

ETA: Remember, it's not just a throwaway reference by Haley, it's also the pit of never-updated monsters that constitutes the first major arc of the comic. At some point, 2ed was a thing, and there are remnants in the current OotS world of it.

GW

[Riftwolf]

Cure Disease was a third-level spell in 1ed and 2ed, too.

Even without magic, looking at the diseases (from pf, as i don't have the phb anymore) most have a decent chance of recovery, even for a 1st level commoner.

[Goblin_Priest]

I think it's worth noting that Remove Disease doesn't always work (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/removeDisease.htm), and that a mythological pyramid creature (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/mummy.htm) also happens to have a supernatural disease that is particularly hard to remove.

Remove Disease could theoretically be cast by Belkar. If he has 9 wis (I don't know what he has), Owl's Wisdom would allow him to cast it. We've seen V cast it on him to allow spellcasting in the past (once). Given that diseases work very slowly in general, hired casting would also likely be an option, it's only a level 3 spell. I really doubt any disease worth showing at this point would be such a pushover as to require a simple casting of Remove Disease to treat.

[Goblin_Priest]

Even without magic, looking at the diseases (from pf, as i don't have the phb anymore) most have a decent chance of recovery, even for a 1st level commoner.

Oh and there are many SRDs for 3.5 (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#disease). Best to use them, as things change. Remove Disease, for example, requires a check in PF, which it does not in 3.5.

[Valynie]

Actually a 5 week incubation disease is really scary depending of the ease of propagation
Let us assume it airborne since everyone on the Mechane is infected
During the incubation period , everyone the cat met and then everyone who met an infected person and then everyone who met who met an infected person etc could be infected

So by day 28 only the cat has to be cured , by day 29 10 people have to be cured , by day 30 , 100 people have to be cured ( depending on the traveling done by the people infected , this number varies.
At this point , everyone in the Godsmeet and everyone on the gnome town is infected. I assume after the godsmeet , every cleric has gone back to his town

This is a plague wich will kill many people ...

[Goblin_Priest]

Actually a 5 week incubation disease is really scary depending of the ease of propagation
Let us assume it airborne since everyone on the Mechane is infected
During the incubation period , everyone the cat met and then everyone who met an infected person and then everyone who met who met an infected person etc could be infected

So by day 28 only the cat has to be cured , by day 29 10 people have to be cured , by day 30 , 100 people have to be cured ( depending on the traveling done by the people infected , this number varies.
At this point , everyone in the Godsmeet and everyone on the gnome town is infected. I assume after the godsmeet , every cleric has gone back to his town

This is a plague wich will kill many people ...

Are diseases even contagious in D&D? I don't think they are. And even if they were, I don't think they are during the incubation period.

[goto124]

Are diseases even contagious in D&D? I don't think they are. And even if they were, I don't think they are during the incubation period.

"Thanks to my unholy power, every man and woman on that ship is now infected."

Also, whether a disease is contagious during the incubation period depends on the virus.

[Snails]

Are diseases even contagious in D&D? I don't think they are. And even if they were, I don't think they are during the incubation period.

The DMG is clear as mud. It presumes that the source of the disease is obvious, such as explicitly listed on some monster stat block.

As the rules are written, generally speaking, no, your PC cannot get a disease from an infected PC. I suppose a specific disease listing could say otherwise.

I would also say your point about incubation period makes sense.

Methinks Hel does not know what the hell she is talking about with respect to diseases. Like it or not, the OotSverse runs on metaphysics that bears striking semblance to a game, and it does not work in a game to handwave that everyone is infected by some asymptomatic character and it is time for everyone to make rolls to see how quickly they die now.

[Riftwolf]

Oh and there are many SRDs for 3.5 (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#disease). Best to use them, as things change. Remove Disease, for example, requires a check in PF, which it does not in 3.5.

My problem with online srds as opposed to tree-flesh ones is the online ones keep diverting me to ad sites that i can't close down.

[Emanick]

Methinks Hel does not know what the hell she is talking about with respect to diseases. Like it or not, the OotSverse runs on metaphysics that bears striking semblance to a game, and it does not work in a game to handwave that everyone is infected by some asymptomatic character and it is time for everyone to make rolls to see how quickly they die now.

Hel is the goddess of disease. Methinks she probably understands at least the basics of how disease works in the OOTSverse.

[goto124]

My problem with online srds as opposed to tree-flesh ones is the online ones keep diverting me to ad sites that i can't close down.

d20srd.org diverts you to ad sites?

[georgie_leech]

d20srd.org diverts you to ad sites?

If so, get your computer checked out, because that sounds like adware.

[goto124]

I wanted to say virus, considering what we're talking about.

Back on topic, OotSverse diseases do seem a tad more realistic than DnD diseases.

[TheNecrocomicon]

To some extent, I can't help but wonder if the Sphinx Pox was nothing but a throwaway joke instead of the actual eventual cause of Belkar's death.

The actual death or serious close call of a party member has so far been marked by dramatic causes -- Roy was blasted from a flying dragon; Vaarsuvius was nearly taken out by Xykon himself; even Durkon was killed in solo combat with a full-fledged vampire.

There is no way a disease that we've only just heard of midway through this very book is going to be the direct doom of a major character who has been with the series since strip #1, whose end has been prophesied for years and several hundred strips in real time. Sure, it could very well be a contributing cause. But this is not enough on its own to fit the general trend of how OotS has been written.

If the Sphinx Pox is what does Belkar in on its own, well, then I'll just have to live with it. But I cannot help thinking there is still a LOT more to the true form of the puzzle that we don't yet understand or know about.

[martianmister]

It can't be the cause of Belkar's death, he'll be dead before the incubation period is over. But it's a good way to solve the question of "what will happen to the kitty after Belkar's demise?".

[Flame of Anor]

FitzChivalry Farseer, one of my favorite Fantasy/Swords and Sorcery protagonists ever, died of
a disease that makes you bleed out of your eyes that had been foreshadowed two books previously

Er...did you just spoil the really important bit out in the open, while only putting a relatively minor detail inside the spoiler tag?

[Emanick]

It can't be the cause of Belkar's death, he'll be dead before the incubation period is over.

Do we know that? They got to the desert a couple of days after Roy said Belkar had seven weeks left. I rather assume Mr. Scruffy will bite it before - or more likely, around when - Belkar dies, due to the extra narrative heft that would hold. I don't think any character besides Belkar would react strongly to Mr. Scruffy dying, so I don't see the narrative point in him expiring after the Belkster does.

[Kish]

If Sphinx Pox actually kills Mr. Scruffy ever, that will be more than I expect from a joke on Hel.

[Goblin_Priest]

"Thanks to my unholy power, every man and woman on that ship is now infected."

Also, whether a disease is contagious during the incubation period depends on the virus.

Honestly I have a hard time following Hel on the issue. "Thanks to her", and yet, she then says she can't intervene. So... did she, or did she not play a role in them getting a disease?

But I guess it does pretty much make it clear that the disease is infectious during the incubation period. Assuming we can take trust those words.


The DMG is clear as mud. It presumes that the source of the disease is obvious, such as explicitly listed on some monster stat block.

As the rules are written, generally speaking, no, your PC cannot get a disease from an infected PC. I suppose a specific disease listing could say otherwise.

I would also say your point about incubation period makes sense.

Methinks Hel does not know what the hell she is talking about with respect to diseases. Like it or not, the OotSverse runs on metaphysics that bears striking semblance to a game, and it does not work in a game to handwave that everyone is infected by some asymptomatic character and it is time for everyone to make rolls to see how quickly they die now.

Hard to know what to make of Hel's knowledge/power over diseases. On top of the point stated above, one would assume that a god of disease would not need to be reminded of its incubation period...

I guess this specific disease would be statted as transmissable, if her statement of every crew member being infected is accurate.


My problem with online srds as opposed to tree-flesh ones is the online ones keep diverting me to ad sites that i can't close down.

Adblock? In any case, book or SRD, if you look at PF rules, you are likely to come up with wrong conclusions for many things. PF and 3.5 are very similar, but also have many important differences.


Hel is the goddess of disease. Methinks she probably understands at least the basics of how disease works in the OOTSverse.

Does she? See two points above.


To some extent, I can't help but wonder if the Sphinx Pox was nothing but a throwaway joke instead of the actual eventual cause of Belkar's death.

The actual death or serious close call of a party member has so far been marked by dramatic causes -- Roy was blasted from a flying dragon; Vaarsuvius was nearly taken out by Xykon himself; even Durkon was killed in solo combat with a full-fledged vampire.

There is no way a disease that we've only just heard of midway through this very book is going to be the direct doom of a major character who has been with the series since strip #1, whose end has been prophesied for years and several hundred strips in real time. Sure, it could very well be a contributing cause. But this is not enough on its own to fit the general trend of how OotS has been written.

If the Sphinx Pox is what does Belkar in on its own, well, then I'll just have to live with it. But I cannot help thinking there is still a LOT more to the true form of the puzzle that we don't yet understand or know about.

Same, I also have a hard time grasping the extent of Sphinx Pox's importance, given how casually it was thrown on scree, and then how casually it got cast off. And then completely ignored for the following strips. Plus the inconsistencies noted above.

[wumpus]

The DMG is clear as mud. It presumes that the source of the disease is obvious, such as explicitly listed on some monster stat block.

As the rules are written, generally speaking, no, your PC cannot get a disease from an infected PC. I suppose a specific disease listing could say otherwise.

I would also say your point about incubation period makes sense.

Methinks Hel does not know what the hell she is talking about with respect to diseases. Like it or not, the OotSverse runs on metaphysics that bears striking semblance to a game, and it does not work in a game to handwave that everyone is infected by some asymptomatic character and it is time for everyone to make rolls to see how quickly they die now.

Contagion under the SRD doesn't say (and I thought it used to).

Under disease:
"When a character is injured by a contaminated attack, touches an item smeared with diseased matter, or consumes disease-tainted food or drink, he must make an immediate Fortitude saving throw. If he succeeds, the disease has no effect—his immune system fought off the infection. If he fails, he takes damage after an incubation period. Once per day afterward, he must make a successful Fortitude saving throw to avoid repeated damage. Two successful saving throws in a row indicate that he has fought off the disease and recovers, taking no more damage."

IMPORTANT: The source for "disease contaminated" is left unspecified. Methinks this is intentional to allow a DM to flavor the setting with anything from modern germ theory to "a witch touched it". Note that even in the late 19th century, germ theory was fighting an uphill battle.

Under Lycanthropy:
"Lycanthropy can be spread like a disease. Sometimes a lycanthrope begins life as a normal humanoid or giant who subsequently contracts lycanthropy after being wounded by a lycanthrope. Such a creature is called an afflicted lycanthrope. Other lycanthropes are born as lycanthropes, and are known as natural lycanthropes."

This can be used to imply that the setting "should" obey the laws of germ theory. As an old-school grognard, I'd insist that "like a disease" means "like a disease" in our world. Note that it doesn't say "as a disease" meaning that diseases are expected to spread this way. But obviously lycanthopes are disease vectors for lycanthropy.

[Lord Torath]

I'm guessing the disease was already made by then. Modifying it after the fact, to suit her specific needs, would be considered an illegal intervention.
"Thanks to my unholy power, every man and woman on that ship is now infected."

Also, whether a disease is contagious during the incubation period depends on the virus.
Honestly I have a hard time following Hel on the issue. "Thanks to her", and yet, she then says she can't intervene. So... did she, or did she not play a role in them getting a disease?

But I guess it does pretty much make it clear that the disease is infectious during the incubation period. Assuming we can take trust those words.Hel might or might not be able to directly intervene on the Prime Material Plane without "inviting" another deity to intervene as well. But she doesn't have to. She has an agent on the Mechane (or did at the time the Mechane left the desert) who would be capable of casting Cause Disease or Make Disease More Infectious or Encourage Mr. Scruffy's Fleas to Bite Everyone on Board or what ever spell would be needed to infect everyone. Greg (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1030.html) had easy access to the entire ship, and a goddess willing to grant any spell he needed. Heck he could even have Spread Disease as a granted power or something.

[Kish]

Hel can arrange for a disease to spread any way that respects the disease's normal vectors, even if that particular transmission is very unlikely. She can't just smite people with a disease they haven't been exposed to. Same way Thor can send a storm after the Mechane and have its strikes bypass the lightning rod, but he can't override control weather, or make lightning strike someone underground.

[Goblin_Priest]

Hel might or might not be able to directly intervene on the Prime Material Plane without "inviting" another deity to intervene as well. But she doesn't have to. She has an agent on the Mechane (or did at the time the Mechane left the desert) who would be capable of casting Cause Disease or Make Disease More Infectious or Encourage Mr. Scruffy's Fleas to Bite Everyone on Board or what ever spell would be needed to infect everyone. Greg (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1030.html) had easy access to the entire ship, and a goddess willing to grant any spell he needed. Heck he could even have Spread Disease as a granted power or something.

We haven't seen them do any of that, though. The lack of foreshadowing would make it unsettling if this did, in fact, occur.


Hel can arrange for a disease to spread any way that respects the disease's normal vectors, even if that particular transmission is very unlikely. She can't just smite people with a disease they haven't been exposed to. Same way Thor can send a storm after the Mechane and have its strikes bypass the lightning rod, but he can't override control weather, or make lightning strike someone underground.

I have a hard time of thinking of what exactly this could be manifested as. Diseases already spread in every context they can. What more could it do without breaking its normal limitations?

[georgie_leech]

We haven't seen them do any of that, though. The lack of foreshadowing would make it unsettling if this did, in fact, occur.



I have a hard time of thinking of what exactly this could be manifested as. Diseases already spread in every context they can. What more could it do without breaking its normal limitations?

Think of it as being able to redirect a boat to Madagascar in that Pandemic game :smallmad:

[goto124]

Turns out Hel has been playing a gane if Pandemic all these while!

[Knaight]

Now that I think about it, the whole discussion is moot. Cats, halflings, humans, elves, etc all have different DNA. So the same disease can not infect them all. With three exceptions:
That's not how diseases work. They don't need identical DNA, they generally just need one particular receptor site that ties into a sufficiently similar biochemical pathway, plus the absence of immune system biochemistry that reliably kills the disease. The target biochemistry is often extremely ubiquitous, and while it's not uncommon for all but one species in close proximity to have an immune system that can deal with a particular disease it's far from guaranteed, and several diseases demonstrate that (http://www.lonestar.edu/16738.htm), not least of which is that:


Rabies infects most mammals in its region I think.

[georgie_leech]

That's not how diseases work. They don't need identical DNA, they generally just need one particular receptor site that ties into a sufficiently similar biochemical pathway, plus the absence of immune system biochemistry that reliably kills the disease. The target biochemistry is often extremely ubiquitous, and while it's not uncommon for all but one species in close proximity to have an immune system that can deal with a particular disease it's far from guaranteed, and several diseases demonstrate that (http://www.lonestar.edu/16738.htm), not least of which is that:

Hell (heh), the deadliest diseases tend to jump ship from animals in the first place. I'm sure people remember Bird and Swine Flu in recent years?

[Emanick]

Hel can arrange for a disease to spread any way that respects the disease's normal vectors, even if that particular transmission is very unlikely. She can't just smite people with a disease they haven't been exposed to. Same way Thor can send a storm after the Mechane and have its strikes bypass the lightning rod, but he can't override control weather, or make lightning strike someone underground.

That makes me think of something else. It was heavily implied that Thor was only allowed to send a storm after the Mechane once it crossed over into the Northern Pantheon's sphere of influence. By the same logic, Hel shouldn't be able to exercise control over disease on the Western Continent. That implies that, whatever happened in the desert with Sphinx Pox and Mr. Scruffy, she can't have had anything to do with it.

[woweedd]

That makes me think of something else. It was heavily implied that Thor was only allowed to send a storm after the Mechane once it crossed over into the Northern Pantheon's sphere of influence. By the same logic, Hel shouldn't be able to exercise control over disease on the Western Continent. That implies that, whatever happened in the desert with Sphinx Pox and Mr. Scruffy, she can't have had anything to do with it.
Scruffy GOT the disease in the desert but, once he and the Mechane passed over the border into Northern lands, Hel was able to make the disease spread to the rest of the crew with relative ease. Fortunately, she can't change the incubation time. That would presumably require creating a whole new strain of the disease, which would then have to spread by itself. Way more steps for far lessened results, especially given that a disease that kills its victims quickly is, thankfully, one that doesn't tend to spread very far, specifically because it kills its victims too quickly for them to spread it to anyone else. See: Ebola, a real-world disease whose spread has mainly been hindered by the fact that it kills its victims so quickly, there's no chance for them to infetct other people, thus, paradoxically, hindering its reproduction.

[Knaight]

Hell (heh), the deadliest diseases tend to jump ship from animals in the first place. I'm sure people remember Bird and Swine Flu in recent years?

As far as I remember both of those were in animal populations for a while until a mutation let them jump ship, which is pretty distinct from rabies, which is able to affect lots of species just fine without species specific mutations.

[littlebum2002]

As far as I remember both of those were in animal populations for a while until a mutation let them jump ship, which is pretty distinct from rabies, which is able to affect lots of species just fine without species specific mutations.

You remembered incorrectly. Pigs and humans can be affected by the swine flu. Birds and humans (and pigs) can be affected by the bird flu. Humans and pigs can be infected by the human flu.

This leads to a fun event when a pig can be infected by all three, creating a virus soup which is apparently especially dangerous to humans.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

As far as I remember both of those were in animal populations for a while until a mutation let them jump ship, which is pretty distinct from rabies, which is able to affect lots of species just fine without species specific mutations.

I'm not historian of the rabies, but almost certainly, the rabies has a base creature that it barely damages, and everyone else that chokes on it when it infects them is NOT the preferred host of the infection.

I do know a bit more about the Yersinia pestis (black death): IIRC, its base host is the prairie dogs of Mongolia (plus their fleas). I do not believe it kills them, but I might be wrong. However, if those same fleas end up on another rodent, Y. pestis can infect them, but will get stuck in the linfatic nodes, which swell in size and kills the rat (same for humans).

The "cross species" mutation is as much to the disadvantage of the infection as it is for the new hosts, since the infection ideally lives along but does not kill its host.

Grey Wolf

[hamishspence]

Given that most lyssaviruses (the family rabies is in) are bat viruses - I'd suggest that rabies originally evolved in bats. However, it may still be pretty lethal to them too.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

However, it may still be pretty lethal to them too.

That can be the case, certainly. The mechanism of infection is to make the subject so thirsty (by blocking their throat) that they bite someone else, propagating the virus. But I'd expect that the base hosts would survive a bit longer than everyone else.

So let me amend to say that the base host species "is usually less severely affected" than the incidental ones.

GW

[Goblin_Priest]

You know, I've been thinking about it some more...

Thor can direct lighting, because he can fudge it to do what it might have already done anyways, right? So he's not really changing the nature of lightning.

But how is this applicable to disease? How can you make it do something it might already do, but doesn't necessarily do? The references to Plague Inc. didn't really help me imagine anything.

But then one thing did occur to me. What are diseases known to do randomly? Mutate! Changing hosts is one thing, but most notably, for this case, could be a shorter incubation time. Seems to fit perfectly, it would finally give a goddess of diseases something to actively do with her diseases!

But, oh wait... she apparently can't? Why!?

She's really a terrible goddess. Can't remember how her diseases work. A bunch of dwarf vampires are being created, which is her jurisdiction, and she is clueless about it too.

[woweedd]

You know, I've been thinking about it some more...

Thor can direct lighting, because he can fudge it to do what it might have already done anyways, right? So he's not really changing the nature of lightning.

But how is this applicable to disease? How can you make it do something it might already do, but doesn't necessarily do? The references to Plague Inc. didn't really help me imagine anything.

But then one thing did occur to me. What are diseases known to do randomly? Mutate! Changing hosts is one thing, but most notably, for this case, could be a shorter incubation time. Seems to fit perfectly, it would finally give a goddess of diseases something to actively do with her diseases!

But, oh wait... she apparently can't? Why!?

She's really a terrible goddess. Can't remember how her diseases work. A bunch of dwarf vampires are being created, which is her jurisdiction, and she is clueless about it too.
OK, this is one reason Plague Inc. is a somewhat inaccurate simulation. You see, in that game, once a disease mutates, that mutation now applies to all pre-existing cases of that debase, everywhere, forever. In real life, that's not how it works. Once a disease mutates, it's a whole new strain, which must spread itself the same way the original did. Hel can't just suddenly make it change after it's already infected people. She'd need to create a new strain, THEN spread it through the virus's normal vectors.

[goto124]

What are diseases known to do randomly? Mutate! Changing hosts is one thing, but most notably, for this case, could be a shorter incubation time. Seems to fit perfectly, it would finally give a goddess of diseases something to actively do with her diseases!

But, oh wait... she apparently can't? Why!?

I imagine that precisely because there's a goddess controlling the viruses (instead of viruses mutating independantly of an outside force), Hel is not allowed to let her viruses mutate. Hel, mutation probably doesn't even exist in the setting.

[Goblin_Priest]

OK, this is one reason Plague Inc. is a somewhat inaccurate simulation. You see, in that game, once a disease mutates, that mutation now applies to all pre-existing cases of that debase, everywhere, forever. In real life, that's not how it works. Once a disease mutates, it's a whole new strain, which must spread itself the same way the original did. Hel can't just suddenly make it change after it's already infected people. She'd need to create a new strain, THEN spread it through the virus's normal vectors.

Wait... yes... but no? Viruses typically mutate while replicating, thus typically while in a host, no? She doesn't need everyone afflicted with the disease to catch the mutated form, just those on the ship to mutate for this trait (and then re-infect the rest of the crew).


I imagine that precisely because there's a goddess controlling the viruses (instead of viruses mutating independantly of an outside force), Hel is not allowed to let her viruses mutate. Hel, mutation probably doesn't even exist in the setting.

How is telling a virus to mutate any different from directing lightning strikes against a specific target?

The disease is already there, there are already infected hosts, and I presume the incubation period is the time where it asymptomatically replicates. Seems like as good an occasion to mutate as any.

If she can't make the virus mutate, what the hell can she do in regards to any disease at all? Is it because the disease portfolio is garbage or because she's got too few worshippers to make anything worthwhile out of it?

[KorvinStarmast]

Er...did you just spoil the really important bit out in the open, while only putting a relatively minor detail inside the spoiler tag? OK, fixed that a bit.

[Jay R]

That makes me think of something else. It was heavily implied that Thor was only allowed to send a storm after the Mechane once it crossed over into the Northern Pantheon's sphere of influence. By the same logic, Hel shouldn't be able to exercise control over disease on the Western Continent. That implies that, whatever happened in the desert with Sphinx Pox and Mr. Scruffy, she can't have had anything to do with it.

Gosh, if only she'd had a cleric present when Mr. Scruffy was in the desert.

[Goblin_Priest]

Gosh, if only she'd had a cleric present when Mr. Scruffy was in the desert.

Actually his logic seems fair to me.

Plus I don't think there's any spell on the cleric spell list that would cut the incubation period?

Contagion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/contagion.htm) negates the incubation altogether. But then it's incredibly overt, non-contagious, and, well, offers a limited list of diseases on which Sphinx Pox does not figure.

[goto124]

The incubation may even be good, since it allows the virus to spread without anyone trying to stop it until a lot of people are already infected.

Though, if the incubation period was short enough that everyone on the Mechane got hit with Sphinx Pox the same time the frost giants attack, it probably would've finished the Order off.

[Goblin_Priest]

The incubation may even be good, since it allows the virus to spread without anyone trying to stop it until a lot of people are already infected.

Though, if the incubation period was short enough that everyone on the Mechane got hit with Sphinx Pox the same time the frost giants attack, it probably would've finished the Order off.

Indeed, hence why the spell Contagion probably wouldn't have been a good choice, even if it somehow had Sphinx Pox on its list and that Durkon* somehow cast it someone without getting noticed. An incubation period lets it spread to everyone to hit more or less simultaneously. What Hel would have needed though would have been an incubation of about a week.

[denthor]

I look forward to two things

All the rymes and Belkar eating cake.

[wumpus]

It can't be the cause of Belkar's death, he'll be dead before the incubation period is over. But it's a good way to solve the question of "what will happen to the kitty after Belkar's demise?".

Does the prophesy claim he will die faster than the disease can take him? This seems like a gratuitous way to make sure Belkar dies even if he winds up in the "snarl world" (and lives to go on an unchecked murderous spree). And it certainly helps to end the story on the kitty.

[Kantaki]

Does the prophesy claim he will die faster than the disease can take him? This seems like a gratuitous way to make sure Belkar dies even if he winds up in the "snarl world" (and lives to go on an unchecked murderous spree). And it certainly helps to end the story on the kitty.

This (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0666.html) comic gives the Belkster seven weeks (based on the Oracle's prediction).
Take the time that passed since then into account and Belkar has three or four weeks left.

[Reddish Mage]

I think the five week period, which begins for everyone sometime during their journey in the north, is deflationary for the reason that we know Belkar doesn't have that long. Belkar will die before the disease hurts the crew or the party.

Further, I imagine Belkar's death will be at a climatic point (perhaps the climax of the series) and far after this story part. I find it hard to think that his death occur before another book, or at the end of a 2nd or 3rd book.

Scruffy may or may never show symptoms (and there is not much reason for Scruffy to show symptoms now), but for the rest, surely this disease is meaningless. Any number of magic items, clerics, or events, can result in disease removal, perhaps even non-magical remedies.

Also there's the saving throw.