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robbie374
2017-07-13, 02:04 PM
Backgrounds grant tool proficiencies. Some tools are straightforward, explained in the PHB. Thieves' Tools seem to be very useful overall. But what about the other tools?

There are lots of Artisan's tools without descriptions. There are vehicle tools, and navigator's tools.

What are the artisan's tools good for? Is it all about random downtime activity to make a few gp per day, or is there more to it than that?

Are any tools other than thieves' tools and the herbalism kit useful for anything in-game that might reasonably be expected to happen in a standard adventure?

Vehicle proficiency sounds interesting, but how often do you find yourself using vehicles in difficult circumstances?

If you have any stories of times tools have been useful, do tell! :-)

Theodoxus
2017-07-13, 02:12 PM
All depends on the DM... Most games I've played in, tools were basically handwaved. "You're working on a caravan, you make it to your destination." Wait, I have land vehicle proficiency, what's the point if it's never used?

I'm starting a new campaign tonight for new players - I don't even know how many have ever played any version of a table top RPG, much less D&D. I'm going to be emphasizing all these nooks and crannies that, from my experience, "experienced gamers" overlook. This is a wonderful reminder that not everything is combat centric. That Social and Exploration are also pillars that do receive quite a bit of support, even if in the day to day play are downgraded (probably because they're not as visceral as chopping a goblin in twain...)

I don't have any anecdotal stories to support your inquiry... just ones that basically prove your premise - that tools in general aren't utilized, and are thus not 'useful' - but they don't have to be!

nickl_2000
2017-07-13, 02:24 PM
It depends on the campaign. I've seen leatherworking tools used by a Winged Tiefling to modify his studded leather armor to fit with the wings.


I've got a low resource campaign where the PCs needed prof in tools to fit equipment to themselves, and they will need other proficiency to make items like arrows (otherwise they may run out).

mgshamster
2017-07-13, 02:27 PM
I've got a lizardfolk in AL who uses his artisan tool proficiency to make souvenirs of killed enemies at the end of each AL session, and hands them out to the team he was on. From that, I've got a Black dragon scale shield, a tooth from a different black dragon, and a club made from the bones of an enemy Knight. All with scrimshaw of the battle scene carved on them. And I carve up something special for each player who's there.

I've got a druid with water vehicle proficiency who has used it to talk shop with ferry captains and sailors, and has used it to design boats in the wilderness for use.

It's up to you to find ways to use your proficiencies and ask the DM if it applies.

Waterdeep Merch
2017-07-13, 02:30 PM
If you're in AL, thieves' tools are the only truly useful tool. You can make some claims for disguise kits and forgery kits, but every instance where they'd come up can be more easily overcome via magic. Herbalism kits are a laugh, you barely have things worth spending your gold on as it is. Getting a discount on healing potions is barely worth mentioning as an advantage.

Land vehicle proficiency sucks mostly because you'll rarely get to use it in most games. Even if you do get into mounted fights, I've yet to see a DM require the checks associated with proficiency here. Probably because it would knock 4/5 party members off their mounts and ruin their mount-based encounter.

Water vehicle proficiency, ahahaha no.

Crafting is basically absent from 5e, poison notwithstanding. RAW, poison crafting is an incredibly poor use of funds. Even if you're drowning in gold.

Navigators tools I've seen used a grand total of once, because I reminded a player we could use them to circumvent a DM that was trying to say we were lost in the woods. It worked, but our DM was rather annoyed about it.

One of my pet homebrew projects has been expanding tools. They really shouldn't be this useless.

Naanomi
2017-07-13, 02:33 PM
Important if you have the Fabricate Spell... a necromancer equipping a skeleton legion really notices the savings in coin and time for Fabricating their weapons and armor herself. Same with making expensive material components at half-price

Coidzor
2017-07-13, 04:03 PM
Alchemists supplies are a material component for that spell from UA that let's you make temporary healing options.

Biggstick
2017-07-13, 04:09 PM
Cartography tools proficiency is extremely useful in an exploration based game where there are no maps of the world easily available.

It's usually what I take instead of the musical instrument proficiency when I choose the Outlander background. The combination of the Outlander feature plus being able to make maps is a pretty interesting thing to have when you're out in the wilderness.

mephnick
2017-07-13, 07:55 PM
I had cooking and brewing tools used to impress hobgoblins by roasting a boar to perfection for a feast which got them some information and leeway they definitely wouldn't have gotten as outsiders normally. That was fun.

Finger6842
2017-07-13, 11:28 PM
Jeweler tools are worthless since a one day of adventure will net more profit. The hours required are over the top.

Naanomi
2017-07-14, 12:36 AM
Jeweler tools are worthless since a one day of adventure will net more profit. The hours required are over the top.
Unless you use the Fabricate Spell; then Jeweler Tools is a path to free cash and cheap Spell components (lots of spells require expensive jewels).

Fabricate makes Tools so much better. Cartography Tools: instant awesome map in as much detail as you can imagine from what you've seen... calligraphy Tools: write that novel instantly... cooking tools: masterfully decorated wedding cake on demand.

Someone in my group played a Knowledge Cleric 2/Lore Bard X... took Fabricate with a Spell secret; could use Cleric to instantly know any crafting skill; made all kinds of creative stuff

Finger6842
2017-07-14, 05:31 AM
Unless you use the Fabricate Spell; then Jeweler Tools is a path to free cash and cheap Spell components (lots of spells require expensive jewels).

Fabricate makes Tools so much better. Cartography Tools: instant awesome map in as much detail as you can imagine from what you've seen... calligraphy Tools: write that novel instantly... cooking tools: masterfully decorated wedding cake on demand.

Someone in my group played a Knowledge Cleric 2/Lore Bard X... took Fabricate with a Spell secret; could use Cleric to instantly know any crafting skill; made all kinds of creative stuff

Interesting, now do I drop haste or counterspell to pick it up?

hymer
2017-07-14, 05:33 AM
If you have any stories of times tools have been useful, do tell! :-)

In my current campaign, miner's tools are one possibility, and dwarves can pick those as their racial prof. It's come in useful dealing with cave-ins and evaluating underground safety.
Land vehicles have come up once, when the group masqueraded as merchants to try to lure some bandits into coming out of hiding. Keeping the mules from panicking when the attack came, and at one point there was risk of a landslide, and navigating that quicly and safely required a land vehicles check.
Smith's tools proficiency come in handy when the group examine metals, weapons and armour they find, helping to give clues about who they're dealing with and who they are connected to. And what's worth hauling back, sometimes.
Poisoner's tool prof came up once in identifying a possible toxin.
I'm sure there are more.

JackPhoenix
2017-07-14, 06:27 AM
My players managed to steal airship in the last game.

In the next game, they'll wish one of the had Navigator's tools or vehicle (airship or at least water) proficiency. Ability to tell what direction is north is much less useful if they don't have idea where exactly they are and which way to where they want to be, and how to make the ship get there safely.

Naanomi
2017-07-14, 09:34 AM
Interesting, now do I drop haste or counterspell to pick it up?
It is a fourth level Spell; why are you dropping 3rd level spells to get it?

Armored Walrus
2017-07-14, 11:51 AM
Like everything else on the character sheet, it's only useful if someone (you or the DM, or both) engages with it. The only difference between that proficiency and your weapon proficiency is that the default assumption (for most tables) is that you'll be fighting at least once every session, but there's no default assumption that you'll be stoneworking. But that's on you. If it's important to you, or your concept of your character, to be good at stoneworking, and interested in stoneworking, then you've got to put it out there. (or you need to have a talented, devoted DM who is willing to pour over everyone's character sheets between sessions and find ways to let everyone use their skills, one that doesn't get discouraged when he invests the time into making sure using those skills are an option, only for the players to forget they have them, overlook the opportunity, and make a beeline for the next combat situation)

Finger6842
2017-07-14, 02:11 PM
It is a fourth level Spell; why are you dropping 3rd level spells to get it?
Is there some reason I can't drop a 3 and pick up a 4?

Bard can swap out 1 spell every level, I can use up to 5th level spells currently. The only relevant restriction my DM enforces is I can't swap types of spells. For example I can't drop a Bard spell and pick up a MS spell. I can however drop a MS lvl 3 spell and pick up a MS lvl 4 or 5 spell.

I imagine some DM's think differently. My DM wants powerful characters but would never allow shenanigans like pumped smite combined with other things. They may be in the RAW but are certainly exploits none the less. I rather enjoy a DM that's more concerned about why you want to do something than what the RAW say. I'm also happy not to have a Paladin in the party, if we make it that far I have some undead army plans and I suspect he/she would object (And therefor need assassination). :)

Geeknamese
2017-07-14, 04:39 PM
Tool Proficiencies are only as good as the player's creativity and the DM's willingness to improvise. Here are some examples:

Alchemist's supplies
- Int + Tool prof bonus to create alchemy items in PHB.
- Int + Tool prof bonus with tools available to test and determine potions and oils.
- Wis + Tool prof bonus to sip and determine potions.
- Con + Tool prof bonus (I would let a PC not proficient in Con saves to use their proficiency bonus if the save had to do with imbibing)

Brewer's supplies
- Str + Tool prof bonus for lifting and moving items as PC is accustomed to it in profession.
- Con + Tool prof bonus for saving throw vs intoxication and poisioning by imbibing.
- Int + Tool prof bonus to create magnificent brews.
- Wis + Tool prof bonus to determine brews by taste.
- Cha + Tool prof bonus to impress with brewing knowledge.

Calligrapher's supplies
- Dex + Tool prof bonus to draft an impressive letter to signify someone of note.
- Int + Tool prof bonus to recognize the particular hand of another calligrapher or school of calligraphy.
- Wis + Tool prof bonus to detect forgeries.

Carpenter's Tools
- Dex + Tool prof bonus to quickly create improvised wooden items.
- Int + Tool prof bonus to engineer complex wooden structures or locate structural weak points.

Cartographer's Tools
- Dex + Tool prof bonus draft maps on the fly or under extreme conditions.
- Int + Tool prof bonus to deduce probable locations of target areas on a map.

Cobbler's Tools
- Int + Tool prof bonus to design masterwork footwear. Can be used to improvise shoes for protection from the elements.
- Wis + Tool prof bonus to recognize the work of a noteworthy cobbler.
- Cha + Tool prof bonus to flatter target regarding shoes. Same check to taunt target regarding footwear fashion.

Cook's utensils
- Dex + Tool prof bonus to prepare a meal under pressure or time crunch.
- Int + Tool prof bonus to design a masterful dish.
- Wis + Tool prof bonus to recognize origin/school of dish or the noteworthy chef that prepared it. Same check to determine how to copy the dish by taste.
- Cha + Tool prof bonus to seduce/impress target with culinary skill and knowledge.

Glassblower's Tools
- Dex + Tool prof bonus to create delicate glass works.
- Int + Tool prof bonus to engineer elaborate glass structures.
- Wis + + Tool prof bonus to recognize origin/region or work.

Jeweler's Tools
- Dex + Tool prof bonus to improve on value of precious stones.
- Int + Tool prof bonus to appraise the value of precious stones and jewelry.
- Wis + Tool prof bonus to detect forgeries and fake jewelry.
- Cha + Tool prof bonus to impress with knowledge and fashion sense in social situations.

Leatherworker's Tools
- Dex + Tool prof bonus to skin an animal/creature.
- Int + Tool prof bonus to design exotic armor from creature hides.

Mason's Tools
- Dex + Tool prof bonus to carve wording or runes into stonework.
- Int + Tool prof bonus to engineer complex stone structures or deduce/locate weak points in structures.
- Wis + Tool prof bonus to notice weak points in structures or recognize origin of stonework.

Painter's supplies
- Dex + Tool prof bonus to create masterwork painting or to create a sketch of a target.
- Int + Tool prof bonus to appraise the value of paintings.
- Wis + Tool prof bonus to detect forgeries and recognize faults in work.
- Cha + Tool prof bonus to entertain an audience with a painting session.

Potter's Tools
- See Glassblower's Tools

Smith's Tools
- Int + Tool prof bonus to engineer or design weapons and armor. Same check to create metal armor from exotic enemy creatures.

Tinker's Tools
- Should allow abilities similar to Rock Gnome Tinkerer trait.

Weaver's Tools
- Similar to Glassblower's Tools.

Woodcarver Tool's
- Same as above.

So, for instance, my Artificer likes to use his Smith's tools or Carpenter's Tools proficiency to locate weak points in structures to fire at with his Thundercannon and collapse then on enemies.

I'm sure there are a lot of other ways to use Tool Proficiencies in multiple pillars of the game if PCs and DMs are creative enough.

Finger6842
2017-07-14, 09:49 PM
Tool Proficiencies are only as good as the player's creativity and the DM's willingness to improvise. Here are some examples:

Alchemist's supplies
- Int + Tool prof bonus to create alchemy items in PHB.
- Int + Tool prof bonus with tools available to test and determine potions and oils.
- Wis + Tool prof bonus to sip and determine potions.
- Con + Tool prof bonus (I would let a PC not proficient in Con saves to use their proficiency bonus if the save had to do with imbibing)

Brewer's supplies
- Str + Tool prof bonus for lifting and moving items as PC is accustomed to it in profession.
- Con + Tool prof bonus for saving throw vs intoxication and poisioning by imbibing.
- Int + Tool prof bonus to create magnificent brews.
- Wis + Tool prof bonus to determine brews by taste.
- Cha + Tool prof bonus to impress with brewing knowledge.

Calligrapher's supplies
- Dex + Tool prof bonus to draft an impressive letter to signify someone of note.
- Int + Tool prof bonus to recognize the particular hand of another calligrapher or school of calligraphy.
- Wis + Tool prof bonus to detect forgeries.

Carpenter's Tools
- Dex + Tool prof bonus to quickly create improvised wooden items.
- Int + Tool prof bonus to engineer complex wooden structures or locate structural weak points.

Cartographer's Tools
- Dex + Tool prof bonus draft maps on the fly or under extreme conditions.
- Int + Tool prof bonus to deduce probable locations of target areas on a map.

Cobbler's Tools
- Int + Tool prof bonus to design masterwork footwear. Can be used to improvise shoes for protection from the elements.
- Wis + Tool prof bonus to recognize the work of a noteworthy cobbler.
- Cha + Tool prof bonus to flatter target regarding shoes. Same check to taunt target regarding footwear fashion.

Cook's utensils
- Dex + Tool prof bonus to prepare a meal under pressure or time crunch.
- Int + Tool prof bonus to design a masterful dish.
- Wis + Tool prof bonus to recognize origin/school of dish or the noteworthy chef that prepared it. Same check to determine how to copy the dish by taste.
- Cha + Tool prof bonus to seduce/impress target with culinary skill and knowledge.

Glassblower's Tools
- Dex + Tool prof bonus to create delicate glass works.
- Int + Tool prof bonus to engineer elaborate glass structures.
- Wis + + Tool prof bonus to recognize origin/region or work.

Jeweler's Tools
- Dex + Tool prof bonus to improve on value of precious stones.
- Int + Tool prof bonus to appraise the value of precious stones and jewelry.
- Wis + Tool prof bonus to detect forgeries and fake jewelry.
- Cha + Tool prof bonus to impress with knowledge and fashion sense in social situations.

Leatherworker's Tools
- Dex + Tool prof bonus to skin an animal/creature.
- Int + Tool prof bonus to design exotic armor from creature hides.

Mason's Tools
- Dex + Tool prof bonus to carve wording or runes into stonework.
- Int + Tool prof bonus to engineer complex stone structures or deduce/locate weak points in structures.
- Wis + Tool prof bonus to notice weak points in structures or recognize origin of stonework.

Painter's supplies
- Dex + Tool prof bonus to create masterwork painting or to create a sketch of a target.
- Int + Tool prof bonus to appraise the value of paintings.
- Wis + Tool prof bonus to detect forgeries and recognize faults in work.
- Cha + Tool prof bonus to entertain an audience with a painting session.

Potter's Tools
- See Glassblower's Tools

Smith's Tools
- Int + Tool prof bonus to engineer or design weapons and armor. Same check to create metal armor from exotic enemy creatures.

Tinker's Tools
- Should allow abilities similar to Rock Gnome Tinkerer trait.

Weaver's Tools
- Similar to Glassblower's Tools.

Woodcarver Tool's
- Same as above.

So, for instance, my Artificer likes to use his Smith's tools or Carpenter's Tools proficiency to locate weak points in structures to fire at with his Thundercannon and collapse then on enemies.

I'm sure there are a lot of other ways to use Tool Proficiencies in multiple pillars of the game if PCs and DMs are creative enough.

Nicely done, thanks.

JumboWheat01
2017-07-14, 09:55 PM
Thieves' Tools are universally useful. There will always be locks of some kind and traps of another that need dealing with. Sure, you could just have the barbarian deal with both, but subtlety can be fun.

I'm personally quite fond of Herbalism Kit, because I like brewing my own healing potions, and often try to work it into my character's proficiencies, usually through training. Though I will admit, most "crafting" tools are only useful if your DM allows your characters some downtime.

scalyfreak
2017-07-14, 11:25 PM
Though I will admit, most "crafting" tools are only useful if your DM allows your characters some downtime.

And during that downtime they go back to their day job. Or they decide to rededicate themselves to their life-long hobby for a short while. Or they decide to earn an honest living doing something that's not dangerous.

Or, in one case, a character in my old group used a proficiency in tailoring to infiltrate a keep.

Lord Vukodlak
2017-07-15, 02:38 AM
It is very campaign dependent,
For instance my wizard had proficiency in herbalist tools and he has recipes for potions of healing and greater potions of healing.
Here's the recipe for the basic potion

Creating a potion of healing requires 75gp, and an active ingredient such as
A handful of Gooseberries blessed by a druid
One Cup of Honeysuckle nectar fleshy harvested during a full-moon
An extract of rare red aloe plant which costs 10gp to prepare.(not to buy)

Brewing the potion requires a DC 10 intelligence check with a herbalist kit. Each active ingredient I supply after the first grants a +2 bonus on this check. Success yield's 1d3 doses +1 for every 5 points I succeed on the DC.

The party is based out of one location so I was actually able to plant honeysuckle and I have a contact in the wild who sends the occasional red aloe plant.

I recently picked up the one for greater healing.
That requires 200gp, and rarer active ingredients, (or two from the basic potion list). But one of the active ingredient is a the tongue of a troll. And it so happens much earlier in the campaign we saved a troll that was wrapped by spiders to be constantly fed upon.
So I have a troll friend and If I offer him some food I'm sure I could get his tongue it grows right back.
The DC is two higher but otherwise.
You don't need proficiency to use any of those formulas but it helps in making the skill check.

Geeknamese
2017-07-16, 11:16 PM
Nicely done, thanks.

Thanks! I think Tool Proficiencies are more interesting and character defining than the regular Skills Proficiencies because of you are creative enough, you can do so many cool things with them. You have to think of all the proficiencies in terms of how they affect all three pillars of the game. With Skill Proficiencies, these are pretty clearly defined by the rules but with Tool Proficiencies, they're not which makes them much more interesting.

I always look at my Tool Proficiencies and try to pair them up with my different ability scores and apply them to the three pillars of the game. Like I mentioned before, in Combat, I can use Mason's Tools to try to find the most optimum spot to aim by ThunderCannon/spell/massive damage dealing ability to collapse a ceiling or archway on my enemy. In Exploration, I could ask my DM if I could use Mason's Tools with Wis to detect secret doors or with Int to search for secret doors in a castle or dungeon. For Social, I could probably impress dwarves or craft guildsman with my masonry knowledge and tricks with a Mason's Tools + Cha check. The point is to be creative with what you got.

Finger6842
2017-07-16, 11:22 PM
Thanks! I think Tool Proficiencies are more interesting and character defining than the regular Skills Proficiencies because of you are creative enough, you can do so many cool things with them. You have to think of all the proficiencies in terms of how they affect all three pillars of the game. With Skill Proficiencies, these are pretty clearly defined by the rules but with Tool Proficiencies, they're not which makes them much more interesting.

I always look at my Tool Proficiencies and try to pair them up with my different ability scores and apply them to the three pillars of the game. Like I mentioned before, in Combat, I can use Mason's Tools to try to find the most optimum spot to aim by ThunderCannon/spell/massive damage dealing ability to collapse a ceiling or archway on my enemy. In Exploration, I could ask my DM if I could use Mason's Tools with Wis to detect secret doors or with Int to search for secret doors in a castle or dungeon. For Social, I could probably impress dwarves or craft guildsman with my masonry knowledge and tricks with a Mason's Tools + Cha check. The point is to be creative with what you got.

I've never experienced a campaign like this but I love it. Here's hoping I experience one soon.

furby076
2017-07-16, 11:22 PM
Land vehicle tools is useless. When was the last time you drove a horse and buggy? Exactly. My character has a backstory of being a cavalier....so he has proficiency riding mounts

RavynsLand
2017-07-17, 01:26 AM
One of the NPC's in the campaign I run has a lot of skills and tools (smithing, vehicles, carpentry, etc.) and they've been useful for story purposes -- bolstering the defenses of the town, fitting a scavenged cannon to an enclosed wagon, then using the wagon as a seige engine. It was Neato Dorito. So basically it's a matter of the situations you're in and whether you seek out oppprtunities to use them.

Geeknamese
2017-07-17, 03:00 AM
Land vehicle tools is useless. When was the last time you drove a horse and buggy? Exactly. My character has a backstory of being a cavalier....so he has proficiency riding mounts

Land Vehicles Tool Proficiency eh?

Str (Land Vehicles) check to help get a stuck wagon out of a ditch since you're proficient and probably know how to leverage to get a wagon unstuck.

Dex or Wis (Land Vehicles) check to use your wagon as a weapon. Maybe you want to sideswipe the enemy creature or run over a prone enemy with your horse-drawn wagon. Same check to execute tough maneuvers in a chase sequence. Maybe you need to squeeze the wagon between two enemies to escape. Maybe you need to jump the wagon over a gap in the path.

Con (Land Vehicles) check to outlast another teamster in a wagon chase/race. Takes a lot of effort to drive a wagon and steer those powerful draft horses.

Int (Land Vehicles) check to hide/smuggle items on a wagon. Can also use this check to sabotage an enemy's wagon or find weak points in the structure of the wagon to attack and cause an accident. Perhaps you need to help engineer the installation of a mounted siege weapon onto the wagon.

Wis (Land Vehicles) check to detect anything odd about a wagon (i.e. hiding/smuggling compartments, sabotage, faulty equipment, tell-take signs of a bandit wagon, etc). Perhaps your instincts as a driver will allow you to push your draft horses harder to make faster time.

Cha (Land Vehicles) check to entertain or befriend riders as you are a proficient teamster and professional driver and accustomed to chatting up clients.

I'm sure I can think up more uses if I take more time. It's certainly not useless. It's just very niche but when the situation calls for it you shine like a mofo. You have to actively find ways to make it useful for yourself. You'd basically be the party's pilot/expert driver/The Transporter.

mgshamster
2017-07-17, 06:55 AM
Land vehicle tools is useless. When was the last time you drove a horse and buggy? Exactly. My character has a backstory of being a cavalier....so he has proficiency riding mounts

Pretty much all of my PCs purchase a covered wagon at some point to carry all the loot and have a place for extra supplies.

SharkForce
2017-07-17, 08:31 PM
Is there some reason I can't drop a 3 and pick up a 4?

Bard can swap out 1 spell every level, I can use up to 5th level spells currently. The only relevant restriction my DM enforces is I can't swap types of spells. For example I can't drop a Bard spell and pick up a MS spell. I can however drop a MS lvl 3 spell and pick up a MS lvl 4 or 5 spell.

I imagine some DM's think differently. My DM wants powerful characters but would never allow shenanigans like pumped smite combined with other things. They may be in the RAW but are certainly exploits none the less. I rather enjoy a DM that's more concerned about why you want to do something than what the RAW say. I'm also happy not to have a Paladin in the party, if we make it that far I have some undead army plans and I suspect he/she would object (And therefor need assassination). :)

because you don't have the magical secrets class ability at level 7, you have it at (maybe 6,) 10, 14, and 18, which is what makes spells from other lists count as bard spells, and your spellcasting feature only gives you the choice when you level up to replace a bard spell (which your old magical secret spells count as) for anotother bard spell (which the higher level spells that aren't on the bard spell list don't count as, because you don't have a magical secrets class feature making them count as bard spells at those levels).

you can unlearn your old magical secrets, but you can only replace them with bard spells.

Chugger
2017-07-17, 09:16 PM
Manacles! To easily and quickly capture/render restrained slept or held or command "grovel" enemies! Handcuff their off hand wrist to the opposite ankle if you can.

Much easier and faster to slap onto someone than tying them up with rope - and more reliable -or so you'd think (it's actually too easy to get out of them, so I'm lying). And I'm guessing the DM will not cooperate and will make you roll to see if you can actually snap them onto a magically slept person's wrist (oh gosh, you woke him up - it says SLAPPING is needed to wake him up! GAH! Er you must have pinched him. WHAT? Yep, I'll roll to double-check - yes, you pinched his wrist as you tried and failed to snap it on. But I only rolled an 8 a freakin' EIGHT! He's now stabbing you in your eye with the dagger he had on his belt - oh look at that - a natural 20! WHAT?!

Chugger
2017-07-17, 09:19 PM
In all seriousness, mirror and magnifying glass. They can be very useful. Mirror not just for zapping stone-gazers. Say you wanna look down that pit before you jump over it, but you really don't wanna stick your head over it. Mage hand a mirror over it while aiming a bullseye lantern at the mirror - you'll be able to see any obvious badguys hiding down there....except it's a perception roll, isn't it? I'm getting tired of having to roll for every stinking thing I do. Does my character roll to get the replacement roll of toilet paper on the holder in the DnD outhouse? If I roll a natural 20 do I get some bonus? If I roll a 1 do I "fall in"? This is getting absurd....

Beelzebubba
2017-07-19, 09:54 AM
Pretty much all of my PCs purchase a covered wagon at some point to carry all the loot and have a place for extra supplies.

Yeah, same. It's kind of a habit from old school D&D, but being able to afford a Riding Horse around 2nd-3rd level is like a kid getting their first car. It's incredibly liberating.

Finger6842
2017-07-19, 10:32 AM
because you don't have the magical secrets class ability at level 7, you have it at (maybe 6,) 10, 14, and 18, which is what makes spells from other lists count as bard spells, and your spellcasting feature only gives you the choice when you level up to replace a bard spell (which your old magical secret spells count as) for anotother bard spell (which the higher level spells that aren't on the bard spell list don't count as, because you don't have a magical secrets class feature making them count as bard spells at those levels).

you can unlearn your old magical secrets, but you can only replace them with bard spells.

Using that logic all spells are bard spells as soon as you choose them so all spells are bard spells regardless of table. You can run it any way you like at your table. I would simply play a moon druid or a fighter there.

hymer
2017-07-19, 10:38 AM
Using that logic all spells are bard spells as soon as you choose them so all spells are bard spells regardless of table. You can run it any way you like at your table. I would simply play a moon druid or a fighter there.

Quite the contrary. That logic means that a bard spell is a bard spell all the time, while other spells are bard spells to a given bard only if they've picked them with Secrets.

Beelzebubba
2017-07-19, 10:53 AM
In all seriousness, mirror and magnifying glass. They can be very useful. Mirror not just for zapping stone-gazers. Say you wanna look down that pit before you jump over it, but you really don't wanna stick your head over it...

Oooh, if we're getting in to Adventuring Gear style tools now...

Chalk. Useful in a maze or in oddly-shaped corridors to not get lost. Design a notation system for the party to leave notes to each other. Makes the Linguist feat actually worthwhile.

Thread, bells, and pitons. Make a tripwire alarm system for long rests.

Small lengths of chain, and a few broken links. Use the Mending cantrip to join them together to make loops around things that are incredibly strong. You never know when that comes in handy.

Crowbar. Advantage on breaking things without using a spell or rage.

...