Making a necromancer (D&D 3.5)

[Sergio]

So I was looking to make a necromancer that creates a crapload of undead minions.

I saw the choices are essentially three: Dread necromancer, cleric, wizard.

1) to be honest I can't seem to understand what varies between them when it comes to undead-making. It seems to me that probably dread necromancer is the most focused on minions, but it sacrifices the versatility of the other two classes I mentioned.
So, when it comes to the choice between these three classes, is the choice between powergaming and roleplaying?


2) In most of the topics I've visited, it is advised to visit this link:

http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1049211

but it seems to be dead. have any of you a 'working' link?

3) I was wondering if there is a way to 'lie' to my party companions and why not, enemy clerics or enemy mages about what I am truly. For example, if I go dread I wish to lie about being a cleric specialized in death. And so on. Would that be possible? I'm planning to be a vecna follower, so I should be lieing about what I am for most of the time.


Thanks for help

[gorfnab]

1. There are a quite a few differences in how the classes you listed deal with creating/controlling undead. See the links provided in number 2 for more details. The K's Revised Necromancer Handbook lists the different way these classes can be used as Necromancers.


So, when it comes to the choice between these three classes, is the choice between powergaming and roleplaying?

Powergaming and Roleplaying are not opposed options. This is the basis of the Stormwind Fallacy (https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Stormwind_fallacy)


The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa.

Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game.

Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse roleplayer if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically roleplayed better than an optimized one, and vice versa.

(I admit that there are some diehards on both sides -- the RP fanatics who refuse to optimize as if strong characters were the mark of the Devil and the min/max munchkins who couldn't RP their way out of a paper bag without setting it on fire -- though I see these as extreme examples. The vast majority of people are in between, and thus the generalizations hold. The key word is 'automatically')

Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's gameplay. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Roleplaying deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other.

Claiming that an optimizer cannot roleplay (or is participating in a playstyle that isn't supportive of roleplaying) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.


2. Here are some handbooks that may help you out
K's Revised Necromancer Handbook (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=2733)
Collection of Necromatic Oddities (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=8963)
Reanimated Dread Necromancer Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?214212-Reanimated-Dread-Necromancer-Handbook)
Dread Necromancer Advanced Learning Handbook (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=10037)

3. Here are some ways to help you "lie" about your casting habits
High Bluff check
Skill Trick: False Theurgy (CS)
Spell: Undetectable Alignment (PHB)
Spell: Mind Blank (PHB)
Psionic Power: Conceal Thoughts (XPH)

This question seems to be more of a roleplaying issue though. What purpose does it serve to lie to your party? Are enemy spellcasters really that concerned/well informed about your casting abilities? Why would you outwardly state to everyone that you're a Dread Necromancer? Just because your class says Dread Necromancer does not mean that you have to call yourself one (ie. you could call yourself a cleric, reaper, priest, psychopomp, Shinigami, witch doctor, etc.)

[mabriss lethe]

The wizard has the least "out of the box" potential as a necromancer. they get some good spells for it, but they're all over the place. That said, a wizard focused on necromancy is one of the easiest to drop in and out of, simply prepare the right spells.

Clerics are solid, Probably the best general necromancer of the three, but not as good at focused minionmancy as the Dread Necro. It also benefits from having a spell list full of things that aren't necromancy for greater flexibility.

The Dread Necro is reallyreallyreally good at what it does, but little else. You have a high charisma and you make minions. If that's all you want, then they're probably the best of the three at it out of the box.

[OldTrees1]

1)
Dread Necromancer is basically a combination of the best of both Cleric and Wizard with regards to being a Necromancer but at the cost of most of the non necromancy related spells (including some of the most game breaking spells). So if you want to be a necromancer, Dread Necromancer is the most optimal class for fulfilling that character concept.

You could phrase that as a difference between roleplaying and powergaming, BUT it would be more accurate to describe it as a difference between generalist with some necromancy vs specialist with ALL the necromancy.

As far as minionmancy:
Command Undead(2nd level spell)
Animate Dead(1st-4th level spell)
Desecrate(2nd level Cleric only spell) that can be bought on an altar
Rebuke Undead(Class Feature)
Charisma focus (Contested control is a charisma check)
Bluff Skill (You want this)
Disguise Skill (You really want this)


3)
Don't lie to your closest allies. They can support you better if they know and still like you. You want the Dread Necromancer so you can lie and disguise from the NPCs that won't understand.

[Sergio]

Thanks to each one of you.

May I ask a few more questions?

1) Apart from tomb tainted soul, what would be an ideal talent progression? I'm going to be dread necromancer 20.

2) Corpsecrafter: anything I should take?

3) For a newbie for D&D in general, is there something relatively simple that can explain me step by step how to create my minions, what are the ingredients, if there is a talent to avoid finding all the ingredients needed?

Thanks for help.

[ViperMagnum357]

Night Caller Whistle, from the Sunless Citadel module. Fairly inexpensive, allows you to raise 2 zombies-of any HD-for each of them you have. A custom item incorporating multiple copies of that effect is about the only way to raise an actual army of undead without abusing Spawn abilities or creating a vast network of lieutenants possessing the ability to command undead.

[AnimeTheCat]

Personally, I love the corpsecrafter feats. I think they're great. Also, the Mother Cyst feats are pretty nice for adding to the spells you can cast and those spells are really quite nice as well.

[Blackhawk748]

Thanks to each one of you.

May I ask a few more questions?

1) Apart from tomb tainted soul, what would be an ideal talent progression? I'm going to be dread necromancer 20.

2) Corpsecrafter: anything I should take?

3) For a newbie for D&D in general, is there something relatively simple that can explain me step by step how to create my minions, what are the ingredients, if there is a talent to avoid finding all the ingredients needed?

Thanks for help.

*cracks knuckles* Ok Necromancy 101 it is.

1. You don't need Tomb Tainted Soul, you could just be a Necropolitan. If thats not on the table, TTS is fine. I'll talk about feats with Corpsecrafter below.

2. Coprscrafter is neat, though it doesnt stack with your Undead Mastery, which is annoying. However it opens up Destructive Retribution and Deadly Chill. Frankly unless you're taking both (or really want one of them) Corpsecrafter isn't worth it.

Other good feats: Fell Animate and Fell Frighten. Dred Necros are good at 2 things, undead and fear effects, these make you better at both. Fell Animate may get a bit over hyped, but chucking a Fell Animate Kelgore's Gravemist and getting yourself 3+ zombies for free is great. Fell Frighten is a blast and you can use your fear aura to jack up the penalty.

Fell Weaken can be fun, as its cheap and, using Kelgores Grave Mist again, it can drop some serious penalties on people.

3. There are various items that can ignore the 25gp Onyx per HD requirement of creating undead. (also see Fell Animate above) Nightcaller whistle is one, buying a Wand will do it too, though it will be a bit more expensive than a wand of similar level, getting it as a Spell Like Ability cuz you Spell Stitched yourself (this one may get a DMG thrown at you, depending on how cool your DM is) or just get yourself a 1-3/day Wondrous Item of it.

Also, the Rod of Undead Mastery is a nice item, as it will give you an even bigger undead control pool.

As for minions, Skeletons are better than Zombies in almost every situation. The exceptions are:

1. When the creature has Fast Healing
2. You want to use the creatures Fly Speed
3. The creature only has one attack anyway.

Otherwise getting to actually do full round actions and being immune to Cold (see Kelgore's Grave Mist) tends to beat out the benefits of having a zombie. However Zombie Hydras are great and i recommend them.

[Afgncaap5]

If roleplay is a concern and/or an option: note that just being a necromancer doesn't mean all your schools need to be of the necromancy school. If Necromancy (that is, "knowledge from the dead" or "knowledge of the dead") fuels *all* of your magic, then that just means you need to roleplay it differently.

As a few examples...

-Summon Undead: this one's pretty easy, but it felt like I should mention that it's not actually a necromancy spell. In this case, you use your Knowledge of the Dead to perform an act of conjuration, creating some monstrous animated corpses to do your bidding.
-Magic Weapon: here your Knowledge of the Dead can allow you to call upon the soul of a mighty warrior, perhaps one that you killed.
-Animate Rope: Just call forth a friendly poltergeist and infuse it into the nearest rope you can find (bonus points if you substitute in a rusty chain)!
-Fireball: There's a lot of people who've been burned alive who want to dish out everything that they took. Your interests and theirs can align for this purpose.

This level of refluffing always feels better to me than the "Can I pretend my cure light wounds spells are actually nutrient bars?" style of refluffing since all the changes occur behind the scenes. People can still look at you and, with magical training, recognize that you've got a Fireball brewing without having to say "Wait a second, that health bar is actually an explosive!" for some reason.

[Sergio]

Personally, I love the corpsecrafter feats. I think they're great. Also, the Mother Cyst feats are pretty nice for adding to the spells you can cast and those spells are really quite nice as well.

So between Corpsecrafter and undead mastery, you would go for the first? The difference is between undeads getting crafted by me or getting attracted by me and coming to me naturally?


Night Caller Whistle, from the Sunless Citadel module. Fairly inexpensive, allows you to raise 2 zombies-of any HD-for each of them you have. A custom item incorporating multiple copies of that effect is about the only way to raise an actual army of undead without abusing Spawn abilities or creating a vast network of lieutenants possessing the ability to command undead.
;)


*cracks knuckles* Ok Necromancy 101 it is.

1. You don't need Tomb Tainted Soul, you could just be a Necropolitan. If thats not on the table, TTS is fine. I'll talk about feats with Corpsecrafter below.

2. Coprscrafter is neat, though it doesnt stack with your Undead Mastery, which is annoying. However it opens up Destructive Retribution and Deadly Chill. Frankly unless you're taking both (or really want one of them) Corpsecrafter isn't worth it.

Other good feats: Fell Animate and Fell Frighten. Dred Necros are good at 2 things, undead and fear effects, these make you better at both. Fell Animate may get a bit over hyped, but chucking a Fell Animate Kelgore's Gravemist and getting yourself 3+ zombies for free is great. Fell Frighten is a blast and you can use your fear aura to jack up the penalty.

Fell Weaken can be fun, as its cheap and, using Kelgores Grave Mist again, it can drop some serious penalties on people.

3. There are various items that can ignore the 25gp Onyx per HD requirement of creating undead. (also see Fell Animate above) Nightcaller whistle is one, buying a Wand will do it too, though it will be a bit more expensive than a wand of similar level, getting it as a Spell Like Ability cuz you Spell Stitched yourself (this one may get a DMG thrown at you, depending on how cool your DM is) or just get yourself a 1-3/day Wondrous Item of it.

Also, the Rod of Undead Mastery is a nice item, as it will give you an even bigger undead control pool.

As for minions, Skeletons are better than Zombies in almost every situation. The exceptions are:

1. When the creature has Fast Healing
2. You want to use the creatures Fly Speed
3. The creature only has one attack anyway.

Otherwise getting to actually do full round actions and being immune to Cold (see Kelgore's Grave Mist) tends to beat out the benefits of having a zombie. However Zombie Hydras are great and i recommend them.

Thanks a lot for the heads up. What about the fear aura? Is there a way I can improve it?


If roleplay is a concern and/or an option: note that just being a necromancer doesn't mean all your schools need to be of the necromancy school. If Necromancy (that is, "knowledge from the dead" or "knowledge of the dead") fuels *all* of your magic, then that just means you need to roleplay it differently.

As a few examples...

-Summon Undead: this one's pretty easy, but it felt like I should mention that it's not actually a necromancy spell. In this case, you use your Knowledge of the Dead to perform an act of conjuration, creating some monstrous animated corpses to do your bidding.
-Magic Weapon: here your Knowledge of the Dead can allow you to call upon the soul of a mighty warrior, perhaps one that you killed.
-Animate Rope: Just call forth a friendly poltergeist and infuse it into the nearest rope you can find (bonus points if you substitute in a rusty chain)!
-Fireball: There's a lot of people who've been burned alive who want to dish out everything that they took. Your interests and theirs can align for this purpose.

This level of refluffing always feels better to me than the "Can I pretend my cure light wounds spells are actually nutrient bars?" style of refluffing since all the changes occur behind the scenes. People can still look at you and, with magical training, recognize that you've got a Fireball brewing without having to say "Wait a second, that health bar is actually an explosive!" for some reason.

Thanks.





Another unrelated question to you: may I ask about the necrotic cyst? Would you pick it?

[OldTrees1]

So between Corpsecrafter and undead mastery, you would go for the first? The difference is between undeads getting crafted by me or getting attracted by me and coming to me naturally?

I suggest animating your own undead only until you can hand that off to your cohort. Your cohort might even have all of Enhance Undead, Undead Mastery, Corpse Crafter, Desecrate, and Fell Energy.

[Blackhawk748]

Thanks a lot for the heads up. What about the fear aura? Is there a way I can improve it?


I'm assuming beyond just jacking up Charisma? The Veil of Allure will up it by +2, just refluff it as a mask or something. Ability Focus feat is another one (if not particularly great). Honestly, since you're Charisma focused the Save DC should be pretty solid already, its just a matter of you exploiting it. (ie stacking fear effects)

You have Intimidate as a class skill, so invest points in it and then use the Skill Trick Never Outnumbered to make them soil their armor. Also Dreadful Wrath is an excellent feat, though it does require you to take it a lvl 1.

If you wanna focus on the fear aspect of the Dread Necro, id be remiss not to mention the Dread Witch. Its never been a thing i've been overly interested in running, but if you want to make people soil themselves in sheer, stark raving mad terror, its very good for it. Plus its only 5 levels so you can still get all the good Dread Necro toys.

[Aurosman]

Here are a couple links to some good dread necromancer handbooks.

http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=2733.0

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?214212-Reanimated-Dread-Necromancer-Handbook

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?444394-New-Dread-Necromancer-Handbook

I just started playing and a dread necromancer is my first character and I am loving it.

[AnimeTheCat]

So between Corpsecrafter and undead mastery, you would go for the first? The difference is between undeads getting crafted by me or getting attracted by me and coming to me naturally?

I prefer to create my own undead and have a smaller number of elite undead troops and use a cohort to format an army of mooks. Then later I get my elite stronger undead awakened and have them manage large groups of undead.

[Sergio]

Okay thanks. Last two questions:

1) In most guides I've read people suggest only to get the dread necromancer to level 8, then quit the class. What would you advise to go for?

2) What about the necrotic cyst? ADvise using it?

[Blackhawk748]

Okay thanks. Last two questions:

1) In most guides I've read people suggest only to get the dread necromancer to level 8, then quit the class. What would you advise to go for?

2) What about the necrotic cyst? ADvise using it?

I know the reanimated guide recommends jumping out (if you are going to jump out at all) at level 12. Frankly i always advise taking most levels of DN, as its a solid class.

[DrKerosene]

Okay thanks. Last two questions:

1) In most guides I've read people suggest only to get the dread necromancer to level 8, then quit the class. What would you advise to go for?

2) What about the necrotic cyst? ADvise using it?

2. Yes, and if you can combine it with Versatile Spellcaster you can kinda make (Sorcerers, Warmages, Beguilers, and) DN's a bit more necromantic by breaking spell levels.

1. I would take a casting advancing PrC and then return for DN 8 to pick up a higher level necromancy spell like Animate Dread Warrior or whatever. Ruathar may be good, Fleshwarper can be thematic (but loses a caster level).

[Tiri]

I know the reanimated guide recommends jumping out (if you are going to jump out at all) at level 12. Frankly i always advise taking most levels of DN, as its a solid class.

Dread Necromancer's 'crapload of minions' potential really falls off after level 8. Past that, it adds to the whole necromancy theme very effectively but if your goal is minions, as in the OP, there are other things you can be doing with your levels that help the concept more.

[AnimeTheCat]

The necrotic cyst spell works well to prepare to create lots of undead via fell drain and cystic eruption (or something lime that... high damage, no save) plus the added versatility for something other than undead minionmancy and fear stacking is always useful.

[OldTrees1]

Okay thanks. Last two questions:

1) In most guides I've read people suggest only to get the dread necromancer to level 8, then quit the class. What would you advise to go for?

At Dread Necromancer 8, Animate Dead changes to (4+cha)*class level instead of 4*caster level. You need a 26 Charisma by 20th level for those to be equal at 20th if you leave at 8th. 26 Cha is not hard to hit for a Dread Necromancer but it is worth mentioning.

On the other hand, Advanced Learning is a nice way to add some nice spells to your solid spell list.

I would advise considering the prestige classes on their own merits and feeling free to either prestige or not. If you do prestige, I suggest saving your 8th or 12th level of Dread Necromancer until you can snag an even stronger spell with Advanced Learning.

[ericgrau]

I'd say wizard is the best. Cleric is often picked for getting certain spells a little earlier, but wizard has spells that works much better with undead such as command undead and haste. Dread necromancer gets command undead too but not haste, mass bull's strength, mass energize resistance (+cluster enemies together and fireball/scintillating sphere/etc.) nor a lot of other misc spells that go well with controlling a large group. Especially most random special undead spells from XYZ book not on the dread necromancer / cleric list. Keep in mind minions are really weak and these tricks are what keep them useful.

Actually a sorcerer might be good in case you keep spamming the same spells, plus its charisma based. But then you don't get the option to prepare animate dead on certain non-combat days and haste on certain other combat days. OTOH if you can't predict when these days will be then sorcerer could be simpler to manage.

[Sergio]

At Dread Necromancer 8, Animate Dead changes to (4+cha)*class level instead of 4*caster level. You need a 26 Charisma by 20th level for those to be equal at 20th if you leave at 8th. 26 Cha is not hard to hit for a Dread Necromancer but it is worth mentioning.


Sorry, can you rephrase? I didn't properly catch what you mean.


On the other hand, Advanced Learning is a nice way to add some nice spells to your solid spell list.
I would advise considering the prestige classes on their own merits and feeling free to either prestige or not. If you do prestige, I suggest saving your 8th or 12th level of Dread Necromancer until you can snag an even stronger spell with Advanced Learning.

So you're telling me to change class at 12?

Is there a way I can be undead without getting my 'appearance' changed so much? I was talking with my DM and he told me that being a necropolitan is a huge risk, because people will try to **** me, if they even think I could be an undead. How should I act?

Second question: Ways to resist turning?

Third question: Is there an undead ritual easier on me, that just grants undead without the actual effects?

[OldTrees1]

Sorry, can you rephrase? I didn't properly catch what you mean.


On the other hand, Advanced Learning is a nice way to add some nice spells to your solid spell list.
I would advise considering the prestige classes on their own merits and feeling free to either prestige or not. If you do prestige, I suggest saving your 8th or 12th level of Dread Necromancer until you can snag an even stronger spell with Advanced Learning.

So you're telling me to change class at 12?

Is there a way I can be undead without getting my 'appearance' changed so much? I was talking with my DM and he told me that being a necropolitan is a huge risk, because people will try to **** me, if they even think I could be an undead. How should I act?

Second question: Ways to resist turning?

Third question: Is there an undead ritual easier on me, that just grants undead without the actual effects?

Rephrasing (and correcting a typo, I meant Cha 22 not Cha 26):
Dread Necromancer's 8th level ability Undead Mastery can shrink your Animate Dead pool IF you leave Dread Necromancer AND are not Charismatic enough.

Dread Necromancer 7 / Some prestige classes 13 has a caster level of 20 and has an animate dead based off caster level. They get 4 * 20 = 80 HD of undead from Animate Dead

Dread Necromancer 8 / Some prestige classes 12 with a Charisma of 20 has a class level of 8 and a charisma modifier of +5. They get (4+5) * 8 = 72 HD of undead from Animate Dead

But far more likely you will have a higher than 20 Charisma. 26 Cha is rather easy to hit with an initial 15 Cha

Dread Necromancer 8 / Some prestige classes 12 with a Charisma of 26 has a class level of 8 and a charisma modifier of +8. They get (4+8) * 8 = 96 HD of undead from Animate Dead.

----

I am saying that you can feel free to multiclass however you wish.

(answer to other questions pending after lunch)

As I was saying, you can feel free to multiclass however you wish. Although I would try to time any multiclassing such that you take your 8th or 12th level of Dread Necromancer when you would get a higher level Advanced Learning spell. (Example: Dread Necromancer 6 / something something / Dread Necromancer +2 / something something else).

------
1)
Being an undead does make you identifiable as an undead. You can use Disguise to attempt to hide that. Try to act like you are a likeable living person. People are less likely to believe bad things about people they love.

However you can also keep a low profile. If nobody pays you any attention then nobody can be suspicious of you.

Additionally many people that delve into necromancy are frail and sickly. That stereotype can help disguise the undead symptoms. This is even easier if your DM lets you use the Taint rules to mutilate your living body.

Either way, expect being undead to result in some social difficulties.

2)
Resistance to Turning comes in 3 flavors:
1) Not being undead
2) Gaining HD and Turn Resistance
3) Being an undead that gets Turn Immunity

3)
Depends on how your DM rules Gentle Repose. I used a Lich that had cast and maintains a Gentle Repose spell on their body. Since it was my just dead body & it was a peaceful death, my body continued to look as it did when I was alive (minus the glowing lich eyes).

[Sergio]

Thanks really a lot.

Is there a table showing what to get if going undead leadership and what to get if going corpsecraft? ( I presume that's the two different parts - attracting undead or making them?)

[OldTrees1]

Thanks really a lot.

Is there a table showing what to get if going undead leadership and what to get if going corpsecraft? ( I presume that's the two different parts - attracting undead or making them?)

Before taking leadership, talk to your DM and find out how they run leadership. Since it is basically a 2nd character, many DMs put restrictions on the cohort's behaviour to keep the limelight on the PCs. Generally Cohorts are relegated to either management or to being the source of a passive buff. If your Cohort is managing your base, undead supply lines, and/or side business, then you would want someone skilled at corpsecrafting. If they are providing a passive buff, then they might either be doing it through song/auras or through crafting gear.

(I did not mention followers because they are weak, fragile, less loyal, more greedy, and usually also have at least the restrictions the cohort does)




Corpsecrafting ingredients of note(I am leaving some out based on my personal experience):
1) Altar to a goddess/god.
2) The Desecration spell. Either cast by someone with Desecrate & the Fell Energy feat or by the Ring of Lesser Desecration(4,395gp from the Dead Life web article).
3) 1 or more of: The Corpse Crafter feat, The Enhanced Undead Wizard 1 feature, or the Undead Mastery Dread Necromancer 8 feature.
4) Optional other Corpsecrafter feats. None seem worth it to me, but some swear by Destructive Retribution or Nimble Bones.

[Sergio]

Before taking leadership, talk to your DM and find out how they run leadership. Since it is basically a 2nd character, many DMs put restrictions on the cohort's behaviour to keep the limelight on the PCs. Generally Cohorts are relegated to either management or to being the source of a passive buff. If your Cohort is managing your base, undead supply lines, and/or side business, then you would want someone skilled at corpsecrafting. If they are providing a passive buff, then they might either be doing it through song/auras or through crafting gear.

(I did not mention followers because they are weak, fragile, less loyal, more greedy, and usually also have at least the restrictions the cohort does)




Corpsecrafting ingredients of note(I am leaving some out based on my personal experience):
1) Altar to a goddess/god.
2) The Desecration spell. Either cast by someone with Desecrate & the Fell Energy feat or by the Ring of Lesser Desecration(4,395gp from the Dead Life web article).
3) 1 or more of: The Corpse Crafter feat, The Enhanced Undead Wizard 1 feature, or the Undead Mastery Dread Necromancer 8 feature.
4) Optional other Corpsecrafter feats. None seem worth it to me, but some swear by Destructive Retribution or Nimble Bones.

Will do.

Okay, I've got a few more questions if you don't mind:

> I don't understand why Undead Mastery (Dread necromancer 8) and corpsecrafter do not work well together. Which source material should I look for?

> The act itself of corpsecraftery is the only way I can make minions? Let's take an example. I find a dragon that is now a skeleton. What can I do to make it my minion?

> The only way to enhance my undead apart from desecrating is making them myself (with corpsecraftery) and nothing else?

> to get new minions the choices should be...
Undead leadership (so they naturally come to me)
Corpsecraftery (?)
Spells (??????????????????????????????????????????)
Am I missing something here?

[OldTrees1]

Will do.

Okay, I've got a few more questions if you don't mind:

> I don't understand why Undead Mastery (Dread necromancer 8) and corpsecrafter do not work well together. Which source material should I look for?

> The act itself of corpsecraftery is the only way I can make minions? Let's take an example. I find a dragon that is now a skeleton. What can I do to make it my minion?

> The only way to enhance my undead apart from desecrating is making them myself (with corpsecraftery) and nothing else?

> to get new minions the choices should be...
Undead leadership (so they naturally come to me)
Corpsecraftery (?)
Spells (??????????????????????????????????????????)
Am I missing something here?

1)
Corpsecrafter is a feat that grants +4 Enhancement bonus to Strength and +2hp per Hit Die. Undead Masters is a feature that grants +4 Enhancement bonus to Strength and +2hp per Hit Die. Bonuses of the same name do not stack(see Players HandBook). So it would only get a +4 Strength but would get +4hp per Hit Die.

2)
Corpsecrafter (and Undead Mastery) are modifiers that apply when you create undead. They are not a means of creation themselves. Animate Dead is still your primary way of creating undead.

You make an undead one of your minions you use your control pools. Undead created by Animate Dead start in the Animate Dead control pool. Rebuke Undead is another control pool (see the turning rules in the PHB). The Command Undead spell is yet another control source (cast it upon the mindless undead to control it for days). Undead Leadership also grants minions.

3)
Spellstiched Undead (Libris Mortis) is a template you can apply to your undead for a cost.

[Sergio]

1)
Corpsecrafter is a feat that grants +4 Enhancement bonus to Strength and +2hp per Hit Die. Undead Masters is a feature that grants +4 Enhancement bonus to Strength and +2hp per Hit Die. Bonuses of the same name do not stack(see Players HandBook). So it would only get a +4 Strength but would get +4hp per Hit Die.

2)
Corpsecrafter (and Undead Mastery) are modifiers that apply when you create undead. They are not a means of creation themselves. Animate Dead is still your primary way of creating undead.

You make an undead one of your minions you use your control pools. Undead created by Animate Dead start in the Animate Dead control pool. Rebuke Undead is another control pool (see the turning rules in the PHB). The Command Undead spell is yet another control source (cast it upon the mindless undead to control it for days). Undead Leadership also grants minions.

3)
Spellstiched Undead (Libris Mortis) is a template you can apply to your undead for a cost.

1) Thanks. Are there feats that have a prerequisite on undead mastery? If yes, where can I find them?
2) Rebuke undead is the cleric 'privilege'.
3) The command undead is the wizard spell.
4) Undead leadership is the feat. Curious. Are there feats base both on undead leadership and (human)leadership?

[Sagetim]

I'd say wizard is the best. Cleric is often picked for getting certain spells a little earlier, but wizard has spells that works much better with undead such as command undead and haste. Dread necromancer gets command undead too but not haste, mass bull's strength, mass energize resistance (+cluster enemies together and fireball/scintillating sphere/etc.) nor a lot of other misc spells that go well with controlling a large group. Especially most random special undead spells from XYZ book not on the dread necromancer / cleric list. Keep in mind minions are really weak and these tricks are what keep them useful.

Actually a sorcerer might be good in case you keep spamming the same spells, plus its charisma based. But then you don't get the option to prepare animate dead on certain non-combat days and haste on certain other combat days. OTOH if you can't predict when these days will be then sorcerer could be simpler to manage.

You don't need some of those spells (for example, mass bull's strength, because all undead animate by dread necromancers who aren't cheating have a +4 enhancement bonus to strength from Undead Mastery anyway, mass bull's strength wouldn't stack, and Would be dispellable). That said, mass energy resistance can be useful, but if you have area spells like that, wouldn't it be easier to get energy substitution (cold) and take advantage of undead immunity to cold, giving you more spell slots for attacks or what have you?


1) Thanks. Are there feats that have a prerequisite on undead mastery? If yes, where can I find them?
2) Rebuke undead is the cleric 'privilege'.
3) The command undead is the wizard spell.
4) Undead leadership is the feat. Curious. Are there feats base both on undead leadership and (human)leadership?

1) I don't think there are any feats that require the class ability that Dread Necromancers get at level 8. I don't think that Heroes of Horror got that much individual support.
2) Turn/Rebuke Undead is a cleric class ability, Dread Necromancers also get Rebuke Undead. While Clerics get either turn or rebuke based on their alignment and or god, Dread Necromancers only get Rebuke Undead, regardless of alignment, faith, etc.
3) I'm pretty sure Command Undead is on the Dread Necromancer spell list. If it wasn't, then Undead Mastery buffing it would be a rather weird.
4) Undead Leadership, as I recall, is mutually exclusive with Leadership. That said, there are other feats and even prestige classes based around regular flavor leadership, though your mileage may vary based on Dungeon Master Interpretation for using Undead Leadership to qualify for any of those feats or prestige classes that don't specify it in particular.

[OldTrees1]

1) Thanks. Are there feats that have a prerequisite on undead mastery? If yes, where can I find them?
2) Rebuke undead is the cleric 'privilege'.
3) The command undead is the wizard spell.
4) Undead leadership is the feat. Curious. Are there feats base both on undead leadership and (human)leadership?

1) No
2-3) Dread Necromancers get Rebuke Undead(1st level class feature) & Command Undead(2nd level Dread Necromancer spell) & Animate Dead(4th level Dread Necromancer spell). That is why they are the best necromancers.
4) There are feats based on Leadership that would affect both Leadership and Undead Leadership. The only one of note is Improved Cohort which allows your Cohort to be 1 level below you rather than 2 levels below you.

[Bonzai]

Here are some more fun Necromancy tricks.

Pale Master: some people hate it as you lose a caster level. However it does have a few things going for it. First, you can animate dead without Onyx. This is a huge financial savings and turns undead into a truly disposable resource. Second, you get a free undead cohort. I recommend a cleric/Boneknight necropolitan. You get access to cleric spells, it can create its own minions, and can assume control of yours if need be. Lastly, you can create undead that don't count towards your HD limits. This way you can truly raise an army of minor undead on your own.

The Haunt Shift Spell: learn to love this baby. What it does is bind up to 20d4 undead permanently in an object. They are immune to turning and other effects while bound unless the object is destroyed. They can manifest a number of times a week depending on hit dice and take solid form. So what does this do for you? It solves the dilemma of how to store and transport large amounts of undead. Bind them to a copper piece or something, plop them into a handy haversack or something, and you are now the Ash Ketchum of the Necromancy world. Do this even with uncontrolled undead. Toss a handful of these coins at something and let nature take its course. They can't do any harm in your extra dimensional space.

Awaken Undead: a fun fact about this spell is that undead awakened retain their extraordinary abilities. This can lead to some interesting options, like say.... rust monsters?

Destruction retribution feat: deals a d4 negative energy per HD rounded up. Now lets consider the humble Rat. 1/4 HD. So you get 4 of them for each HD that you animate. They are tiny and can share squares. They still deal a d4 each. Once again you can have Haunt shift and have up to 320 of these suckers loaded up on a coin, then follow it up with a fireball or something to add 320d4 negative energy damage on top of it. An extreme example, but it demonstrates the possibilities.

Spell stitching is great. Use it to add some twists to your minions. A favorite of mine is negative energy ray from time of blood for emergency damage/healing.

Speaking of spill stitching, create a flame skull. It's a nifty undead with spell like abilities, and the unique ability to come back after being destroyed. Stitch these two spells into it, unliving weapon and death throes. Destruction retribution: 4d6 negative energy, reflex half. Un-living weapon: 2d6 untyped . Death throes: 4d8 untyped. You now have a renewable suicide bombing minion.

Shrouds of the Unholy: it's a bit scketchy, but due to ambiguous wording you can theoretically make any undead with them. Get your slaymates and such with them if you can't by other means.

Class pro's and cons:

Wizard: has the best spell selection and utility. Alternative class feature lets you swap your familiar for a skeletal minion that gets better as you level. which is really nice in early levels and actually makes you feel like a necromancer. Con's? No turn/rebuke unless you get it by other means (items/dragon magazine feat/classes/etc...).

Cleric: good spells, domains, turn/rebuke/ armor proficiency. All around extremely solid and with the right domain can control the most Undead.

Dread Necromancer: best Necromancy class features, turn/rebuke, armor and weapon proficiencies. Main drawback is their narrow spell selection. A custom runestaff for utility stuff solves a lot of those issues.

Hope this helps!

[OldTrees1]

Here are some more fun Necromancy tricks.

Create a flame skull. It's a nifty undead with spell like abilities, and the unique ability to come back after being destroyed. Stitch these two spells into it, unliving weapon and death throes. Destruction retribution: 4d6 negative energy, reflex half. Un-living weapon: 2d6 untyped . Death throes: 4d8 untyped. You now have a renewable suicide bombing minion.


Source and control classification?

[Bonzai]

Source and control classification?

Lost empires of faerun. Need the corpse of a caster and create undead. Rebuke normally,

[Sergio]

cut

Thank you!! Great ideas. More please. :smallcool:

[Bonzai]

Other ideas...

Look up the Undead battery feat from Dragonlance. It allows you to permanently drain HD from undead and use it to fuel metamagic. Use chaff or summoned undead to fuel your powerful spells. Or use it offensively on undead that don't stay down. They won't come back after being reduced to 0 HD. My last necromancer used eternal wands of summon undead, to basically fuel persistent metamagic on all my buffs.

Necrotic Cyst: you were talking about it. The downside is that it only works on living targets, otherwise I'd say it would be insanely good. There is a lot of mileage to be gained from them. The other downside is that it requires a touch. If you had a familiar you could use it to deliver the touch spell. Particularly if it is an adorable kitten or something no one expects. From there it's up to your imagination. Unwitting spies, dominated slaves, suicide bombers, etc..

There is a pair of feats in dragon magazine 305. God touched, which is a pre-req for divine channeler. Divine channeler. Divine channeler lets you turn/rebuke as a cleric half your character level. This is great for a wizard who wouldn't have access otherwise. There is also a helm in magic of faerun that lets you rebuke as a 10th lvl cleric. Both of these can be further enhanced through items.

That's about all I got. Most the rest is covered in the hand books.

[Gruftzwerg]

I wanted to mention 2 other options for making necromancer builds.

1.
Warlocks get "The Dead Walk", which is basically Animate Dead. It comes with the extra option to forfeit the materials needed in exchange for a limited short duration. This gives you the option to raise your fresh fallen enemies and let em fight their friends and have a good evil laugh. And since it's a SLA, you can spam it as much as you want it.

2.
Shadow Sun Ninja
A single lvl dip into SSN gives you a very powerful utility ability. You can channel negative and positive energy into touch attacks and switch between these every round (start turn 1 with negative, than 2 with positive, 3 negative, 4 positive...). And since you have your undead minions, you can alter each turn between healing your undead minions and your teammates. In downtimes you can heal all minions and your team to full at no cost.
Note that since the ability does unarmed + wis dmg/heal, it is recommend to get a necklace of natural attacks with "sizing" to change your unarmed to colossal size for extra big dmg/heals.
Downside is the loss in caster lvl and that you might need to invest another lvl into swordsage to get the requirements. (with Swordsage, get the "Child of Shadow" stance to gain concealment whenever you move!).
Imho, unless you aim for a special lvl20 build, that you wanna follow, I would suggest to consider to invest the 2 lvls and get the nice ability. It will increase the survivability or your entire team which will bring you into a really save spot.

Note that these 2 options doesn't synergy well, cause the limited duration of the altered The Dead Walk makes healing them pointless. I just wanted to mention these options for completeness sake and maybe draw the interest of the thread author on it.

[Sergio]

Other ideas...

Look up the Undead battery feat from Dragonlance. It allows you to permanently drain HD from undead and use it to fuel metamagic. Use chaff or summoned undead to fuel your powerful spells. Or use it offensively on undead that don't stay down. They won't come back after being reduced to 0 HD. My last necromancer used eternal wands of summon undead, to basically fuel persistent metamagic on all my buffs.

Necrotic Cyst: you were talking about it. The downside is that it only works on living targets, otherwise I'd say it would be insanely good. There is a lot of mileage to be gained from them. The other downside is that it requires a touch. If you had a familiar you could use it to deliver the touch spell. Particularly if it is an adorable kitten or something no one expects. From there it's up to your imagination. Unwitting spies, dominated slaves, suicide bombers, etc..

There is a pair of feats in dragon magazine 305. God touched, which is a pre-req for divine channeler. Divine channeler. Divine channeler lets you turn/rebuke as a cleric half your character level. This is great for a wizard who wouldn't have access otherwise. There is also a helm in magic of faerun that lets you rebuke as a 10th lvl cleric. Both of these can be further enhanced through items.

That's about all I got. Most the rest is covered in the hand books.

Thanks a lot.

I've got another unrelated questions: I'm starting as a dread necromancer level 6. Am I wrong thinking that my level 1 spellist has only the ray of enfleebement as decent spell?

Is there a handbook with a list of spells that I should use each level using a dread necro ?

[Blackhawk748]

Thanks a lot.

I've got another unrelated questions: I'm starting as a dread necromancer level 6. Am I wrong thinking that my level 1 spellist has only the ray of enfleebement as decent spell?

Is there a handbook with a list of spells that I should use each level using a dread necro ?

You're not entirely right Cause Fear is solid for mooks and Chill Touch is ok if you're built for Touch attacks. Enfeeblement is your best 1st lvl spell however.

It should be in one of the Dread Necro Handbooks, if you havent used your Advanced Learning yet, look at Kelgore's Grave mist, its a solid spell.

[Sergio]

Thanks. I checked the handbook and there are only suggestions for how to animate or create undead, nothing 'spell-centric'. Let's keep going. Level 2. What am I supposed to use?

Everything but death knell, am I wrong?

[Segev]

Necrotic Cyst: you were talking about it. The downside is that it only works on living targets, otherwise I'd say it would be insanely good. There is a lot of mileage to be gained from them. The other downside is that it requires a touch. If you had a familiar you could use it to deliver the touch spell. Particularly if it is an adorable kitten or something no one expects. From there it's up to your imagination. Unwitting spies, dominated slaves, suicide bombers, etc..

The base spell - Necrotic Cyst - requires touch. Necrotic eruption, however, causes everybody hit by the fireball-like explosion of its dead victim to have to make a Fortitude save or also gain their own Cysts.

Several of the spells that kill the target have the necrotic cyst they hold turn into Skulking Cysts afterwards, as well. These high-stealth undead can cast necrotic cyst at least once per day. Touch, yes, but you send them out to spread it around. They are intelligent undead, so you only can befriend them with command undead, rather than outright control them, but really, that's all you need if you're just trying to direct them to spread cysts around and occasionally report interesting stuff they see while skulking about.