Wight PC sinking in the Ocean, what happens?

[Cisturn]

He doesn't breathe, and I'm not sure pressure would be an issue. What does the Playground think?

[Morcleon]

Assuming they don't have immunity to underwater high pressure, they are eventually destroyed by 1d6 damage per 100 ft depth per minute (Stormwrack).

[Zaq]

Does pressure damage affect objects? Because undead are immune to Fort saves that don't affect objects. Stormwrack pg. 11 talks about "characters" taking pressure damage, so it's a bit unclear.

If pressure damage isn't a thing, he's still going to be in a bad place. There's a lot of nasty stuff in the ocean, and he's probably going to have to walk a really long way (with no navigational aids) to find his way out. If he's "sinking," there's probably something preventing him from swimming very well, so he'd better hope that he doesn't end up in a trench that he can't find a way to climb or walk out of. Also, the ocean is super dark, and while he's got darkvision, it's still not going to be trivial to navigate around, especially if he's not used to that sort of thing.

If you use the "inescapable craving" rules from Libris Mortis, he'd better be able to find enough deep-dwelling critters to absorb the life force from, or he's going to starve to death. (If you don't use those rules, of course, he won't starve.)

So yeah. There's basically a minimum of two GM rulings that are needed (pressure damage affecting objects and the Undead Hunger rules from Libris Mortis) to keep him "alive" in the environment itself. If both of those rulings go in the character's favor, then he needs to both walk a ridiculously long way to a random shore and not die from any nasty beasts that are probably going to have a leg up on a slow-moving land-dweller who's incredibly disadvantaged. (And by any nasty beasts, I mean all the accumulated nasty beasts between him and shore, since undead don't heal naturally, and he's not likely to have a source of negative energy to top off his HP.)

On a practical, "how do I handle this at the table" level, unless he has some way to swim back to the surface and get back to the party, some way to teleport out of this mess, or some other major trick up his sleeve to get out of his current predicament, the character's effectively gone. At best, you could maybe run a solo session or two with him that describes whether he can get out of the ocean at all, and if he does, you'll then have to figure out where in the world he actually is and if he has any sort of way to figure out how to get back to the group. That's going to take a lot of in-game time (I'm basically assuming that if he were high enough level to have casual access to teleportation magic, he wouldn't have gotten into this mess in the first place), so unless you're doing a massive timeskip, this character cannot be part of the party for a really long time. (Calculate how fast he can swim or walk while completely submerged, then figure out how many miles or hundreds of miles he is away from shore, then add in a factor for the fact that he doesn't know where he's going and likely will encounter trouble, and then figure out which random direction he ends up in, and it's going to be a LONG time before he sees the sun again.) So in practical terms, the player needs to come up with another character unless they've got a major ace in the hole.

[Esprit15]

Why can't he swim?

[Pleh]

Yeah, we need more information.

As a DM, I would point out that Artificial Submarines in the real world have to take pressure into account when diving deeper. Not all craft can survive the pressures, and Submarines are definitely Objects, so the Pressure Damage definitely CAN apply to objects.

BUT the reason for the damage to a submarine is the pressure differential: it's the fact that the submarine is trying to contain a survivable pocket of air for the passengers and push against the water outside. If the submarine ruptures, very little extra damage will occur to the structure once the air pocket has imploded. Once the Water pressure has equalized, I doubt very much damage would apply to the metal structure.

That said, the Wight likely contains air pockets throughout its body that would rupture. As a DM, I would rule that the Wight would make the Fort saves until they failed one, after which the wight no longer has any air inside it and no longer takes damage if it survived.
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Not all the ocean is equally deep. If they aren't far enough from shore, Pressure Damage rules won't even come into play. Technically, you can "sink into the ocean" only 30ft from the shoreline.

As others have mentioned, the question of "what else is in the water nearby" is also fundamentally important. If there are fish, they might be able to sustain themselves for longer. If there are Merfolk about, they can create some MerWight slaves to take them back to shore (assuming they survive the fight).

It's also worth considering that this is a FANTASY campaign. What if there is an underwater city nearby (like Atlantis or a Merfolk settlement)? He might not have to walk or swim as far as to shore.
---
That question about "why is the wight unable to simply swim" is nontrivial. Unless they are tied to something heavy, they should be able to swim freely, preventing them from being dragged against their will into the dangers of Pressure Damage.

If they are tied to something heavy, that raises questions about how difficult is it for them to get free and start swimming.

[Goaty14]

If he can swim, then note he can take 20 on his swim check to get back up.

Are wights incorporeal, or is that wraiths? If he is incorporeal, I'm pretty sure the water cannot affect him, unless it is holy water somehow.

[Zaq]

If he can swim, then note he can take 20 on his swim check to get back up.

Are wights incorporeal, or is that wraiths? If he is incorporeal, I'm pretty sure the water cannot affect him, unless it is holy water somehow.

You're thinking of wraiths. Wights are quite corporeal.

Regarding swimming, unless he's got a decent modifier, he can't take 20, since Swim carries consequences for failing.

[Necroticplague]

Does pressure damage affect objects? Because undead are immune to Fort saves that don't affect objects. Stormwrack pg. 11 talks about "characters" taking pressure damage, so it's a bit unclear.

If pressure damage isn't a thing, he's still going to be in a bad place. There's a lot of nasty stuff in the ocean, and(And by any nasty beasts, I mean all the accumulated nasty beasts between him and shore, since undead don't heal naturally, and he's not likely to have a source of negative energy to top off his HP.)

1. According to the glossary, character and creature are synonyms, so undead are immune to pressure.
2.
Cannot heal damage on its own if it has no Intelligence score, although it can be healed.
So a wight does heal naturally, and is immune to pressure damage. Combined with most aquatic wildlife not being overly interested in biting into a sack of skin and bones*, and the undead are actually pretty safe underwater. Might be a slow trip walking back to shore with limited visibility, but it's a pretty safe walk.

*=fun related fact: in real life, sharks don't like eating people because they find us tough and difficult to eat compared to their preferred prey. Tough land dweller bones and muscles vs. soft seal blubber.

[Pleh]

*=fun related fact: in real life, sharks don't like eating people because they find us tough and difficult to eat compared to their preferred prey. Tough land dweller bones and muscles vs. soft seal blubber.

Also fun fact: Sharks bite and swallow just about anything that gets close to them (almost more as a defense technique than a feeding response) and are most often drawn to humans swimming because the motion resembles to their senses a fish in distress. Wights being humanoid would swim like humans and likewise attract sharks that thought there was a fish injured in the vicinity. They might not like chewing on a Wight, but they might not realize the difference until they're already chewing on it. Some sharks as smarter than others.

And there are LOTS of ocean scavengers happy to pick even the smallest scraps of flesh off a set of bones down in the ocean where food is scarce. The Wight's best bet for not being reduced to a Skeleton is the fact that the Open Ocean is primarily devoid of life. He'd have more trouble as soon as he gets closer to shore, where sea life is more abundant (because sunlight reaches the ocean floor, allowing plants to grow, attracting plant eating creatures, and then carnivorous creatures).

[Celestia]

I assume most creatures would avoid the wight. Sure, it's dead meat, but since it can theoretically exist forever, it is not rotting. As such, there would be no smell to attract potential predators. In addition, the wight is animated by negative energy, an I'm guessing most animals would be unnerved by and avoid that. It's also human sized, which is significantly larger than most sea creatures, especially the ones in the depths of the ocean floor. Perhaps if he runs into a desperately hungry large shark nearer to the surface, it might attack, but that's about it.

Now, as for the intelligent beings that live in the ocean, on the other fin, they would be much more likely to attack. Merfolk and aquatic elves pose a far greater risk than sharks.

[Yklikt]

most animals would be unnerved by and avoid that.

Only wraith have this ability

[Celestia]

Only wraith have this ability
I'm not talking about an in game ability that forces animals to remain outside of a set radius. I'm talking about standard animal behavior, unless that's something that doesn't exist in D&D since there are no rules for it.

[Yklikt]

Well I mean the animal have no way to tell that wight is dead or use negative enrage as no special powers like a cleric or something. They only 2 intelligence

[Pleh]

I assume most creatures would avoid the wight. Sure, it's dead meat, but since it can theoretically exist forever, it is not rotting. As such, there would be no smell to attract potential predators. In addition, the wight is animated by negative energy, an I'm guessing most animals would be unnerved by and avoid that. It's also human sized, which is significantly larger than most sea creatures, especially the ones in the depths of the ocean floor. Perhaps if he runs into a desperately hungry large shark nearer to the surface, it might attack, but that's about it.

Now, as for the intelligent beings that live in the ocean, on the other fin, they would be much more likely to attack. Merfolk and aquatic elves pose a far greater risk than sharks.

I disagree about undead not rotting. It's a little bit more determined by fluff. Sure, logically undead that rot would eventually waste away into nothing (possibly part of the case with the optional rules in Libris Mortis regarding their need to consume the living).

But when they are animated by Negative Energy, there's nothing preventing them from continually rotting without losing functionality.

I think it'd be rather silly to imagine that negative energy somehow disguises the smell of the animated carcass, as that might imply that Immunity to Scent is now an Undead Trait.


Well I mean the animal have no way to tell that wight is dead or use negative enrage as no special powers like a cleric or something. They only 2 intelligence

I'm pretty sure it's common RAI to consider exposure to Negative Energy or creatures imbued with its power to fundamentally feel uncomfortable and unnerving to living creatures. You don't need any more intelligence than INT 1 to experience the sensation that negative energy is unpleasant.

To an animal, it would likely just make them feel agitated and afraid, like they would feel if they detected a larger predator swimming nearby. Because all Negative Energy comes from the Plane of Negative Energy, which swallows up living creatures like a interdimensional predator.

[Buufreak]

Well I mean the animal have no way to tell that wight is dead or use negative enrage as no special powers like a cleric or something. They only 2 intelligence

Regardless you are missing the bit about animals refusing to attack many things, including undead, which is why they must be taught to (see animal tricks).

[Yklikt]

I always think because the animal insticts detect undead a s just dead, and animal usual not Attack dead things. But your way also make sense

[Cisturn]

Hey guys! Sorry for the lack of detail. At first I just wasn't sure of pressure damage would even effect him.

Here is some info:

The PC in question is a Wight/Hexblade 3 (ECL 6).

He's wearing a chain shirt, has a 14 strength, and has no ranks in swim effectively giving him a +0 swim check.. He has not passes a swim check yet and is currently sinking.

The ocean is calm, but there is a storm blowing in.

Their ship is about 15 miles from the coast.

He has no access to teleportation magic.

The rest of the party is all level 6. It includes a Soul Knife (and romantic interest to the drowning wight in question). A ranger who has been knocked into negatives and stabilized at -9. And a summoning Wizard who is at low hit points and out of spells.

The Wight's name is Carlo.

[Necroticplague]

Well, that seems like a fairly easy-to-solve problem. Being underwater doesn't hurt him, so he can afford to wait a bit. Just weigh anchor, give him a couple minutes to grab on to the chain , then dredge him back up, waterlogged and annoyed, but fine.

[Zanos]

Calm water has a swim DC of 10, so he should be able to just take 10 on the swim checks.

You can make a swim check every round either way, so he shouldn't really be in danger of sinking to the bottom.

[Zaq]

1. According to the glossary, character and creature are synonyms, so undead are immune to pressure.
2.
So a wight does heal naturally, and is immune to pressure damage. Combined with most aquatic wildlife not being overly interested in biting into a sack of skin and bones*, and the undead are actually pretty safe underwater. Might be a slow trip walking back to shore with limited visibility, but it's a pretty safe walk.

*=fun related fact: in real life, sharks don't like eating people because they find us tough and difficult to eat compared to their preferred prey. Tough land dweller bones and muscles vs. soft seal blubber.

You seem to be correct regarding undead healing naturally, but that of course requires him to stop and rest, which will add to the amount of time necessary to get back to shore. (And also possibly make it more likely that he gets lost, depending on how you want to rule things.)

As far as the pressure thing goes, the reason that I mentioned "characters" is because of the sentence "Very deep water deals pressure damage of 1d6 points per minute for every 100 feet the character is below the surface." The book does explicitly say that characters have to deal with pressure, but it doesn't say anything about whether objects do or do not. It's ambiguous, and therefore it's up for a GM ruling.

[Necroticplague]

As far as the pressure thing goes, the reason that I mentioned "characters" is because of the sentence "Very deep water deals pressure damage of 1d6 points per minute for every 100 feet the character is below the surface." The book does explicitly say that characters have to deal with pressure, but it doesn't say anything about whether objects do or do not. It's ambiguous, and therefore it's up for a GM ruling.

How is it ambiguous? It says it effects characters (another word for creatures), so it effects those. It doesn't say it effects objects, so it doesn't. Seems pretty clear cut.

[Soranar]

Objects would have to deal with pressure too but they also have hardness to ignore damage.

[Buufreak]

This actually makes me wonder, since there are rules for crushing pressure of being rapidly submerged, are there also rules for dying of the bends?

[Elkad]

15 miles from shore is pretty close (a lookout on top of a 160' mast - big 1000ton merchant ship - can see the shore). I don't suppose you have any idea where the continental shelf is on your map. A shallow 1000-2000' of water is probably fair.

If he can just walk to land in no more than a couple thousand feet of water, he has no environmental issues (angry sea elves are a different problem). Since he doesn't tire, a day is plenty of time, even at a reduced movement rate and avoiding some terrain obstacles.

Finding the correct direction is probably his biggest problem. Below 600' the sun is undetectable, even if there is some twilight. He'll need some survival checks to find his direction (or ask a native). Below 3000' is complete darkness, so he can't even see the natives until he is within 60' of them.

His falling (diving) speed is pretty low, even in armor. 10' per round (1mph). Compression shouldn't be an issue. World record scuba diver went to 1090' underwater in 12 minutes - almost exactly the same speed. He spent 15 hours coming back up so he didn't die of the bends, but that shouldn't be an issue for a wight, as since it isn't breathing, it doesn't have to worry about gasses in the blood. And given a nice easy slope to walk up for 15 miles at 1mph, even a human with water breathing could do it.

[Goaty14]

Calm water has a swim DC of 10, so he should be able to just take 10 on the swim checks.

You can make a swim check every round either way, so he shouldn't really be in danger of sinking to the bottom.

Only for creatures with a swim speed

He has a chain shirt (-2 Armor check) which is doubled in water, making him have a -2 to swim checks, unless he takes it off, if he fails by 4 or less, nothing happens, if he fails by 5 or more, he continues sinking

[Thurbane]

Since the pressure rules in Stormwrack allow a Fort save each round to avoid damage, and Undead have immunity to anything requiring a Fort save, he's OK there.

While a Wight doesn't have the unnatural aura to repel animals like some undead, it's worth noting that special training is required for animals to attack "unnatural creatures as undead and aberrations" (as per the Handle Animal skill), so I think it's safe to assume that wild animals would not do so unless threatened and defending themselves.

Vermin, however, are mindless. That-damn-crab and his cousins may be a problem for the Wight.

If his Swim skill isn't enough to take 10 to get back to the surface, he's have to walk to shore, potentially fighting aquatic vermin and intelligent beings on the way.

[Zanos]

Only for creatures with a swim speed

He has a chain shirt (-2 Armor check) which is doubled in water, making him have a -2 to swim checks, unless he takes it off, if he fails by 4 or less, nothing happens, if he fails by 5 or more, he continues sinking
No, creatures with swim speeds can take 10 on a swim check "even if distracted or threatened." Anyone can take 10 on a swim check if they aren't distracted or threatened.

OP specified the character had a total of +0 to swim with the chain shirt on.

[Vinyadan]

Are there rules about the push of the pressure, rather than the damage it causes? I am not sure of the maximum depth a human being can reach, before the pressure becomes too much to swim back to surface. If very deep, the pressure might even be too much to get back using the anchor chain as a ladder (I guess he would have to step on the anchor and wait for it to be raised).

Storms are mostly a surface thing, so that shouldn't change things for the wight, unless fish delves deeper to avoid the storm.

The bottom of the sea is very cold, and water drains heat much faster than air, but I guess that undead can live :smalltongue: with that.

The bottom of the sea could be interesting, though: he might meet a submerged volcano, a sunken ship, or the Gungans.

About fish not eating dead stuff, there are fishes and sea animals in general that specialize in eating corpses (scavengers and necrovorous organisms). So he might want to think of that.

[Thurbane]

The bottom of the sea is very cold, and water drains heat much faster than air, but I guess that undead can live :smalltongue: with that.

Stormwrack does have rules on that, but it deals nonlethal damage - so yes, Undead are immune.

[Pleh]

Since the pressure rules in Stormwrack allow a Fort save each round to avoid damage, and Undead have immunity to anything requiring a Fort save, he's OK there.

Small nitpick: undead ARE subject to fort saves IF the fort save would normally apply to objects.

Crushing pressure damage arguably does affect objects.

[Mechalich]

Crushing pressure damage arguably does affect objects.

Crushing pressure damage only affects objects with pockets of compressible material (usually air) within them. So a safe with the door shut is vulnerable to compression damage, but a safe with the door open will be unaffected. This is why sinking ships usually bear some horrible infliction from where they initially crushed in and water rushed into the internal spaces but are otherwise whole. Ships that snapped in half while sinking - like the Titanic - are largely untouched by pressure.

A wight is capable of talking. That means it has lungs that can inflate and would be subject to pressure damage. However that can be solved by exhaling. More substantially, the brain can be damaged by extremes of pressure (though this takes much more depth) and it is unclear how an undead brain functions anyway. It's easier to rule that a wight is unaffected by this.


About fish not eating dead stuff, there are fishes and sea animals in general that specialize in eating corpses (scavengers and necrovorous organisms). So he might want to think of that.

Most deep sea scavengers are small and relatively slow moving. They also rely on scent to find their meals - so if a wight is giving off scent cues its vulnerable, that's probably a judgment call. Fighting off a handful of hagfish is a trivial affair for a wight and not really worth going into. The most dangerous predators wouldn't be at the bottom but in the midwaters - large squid and certain sharks (sixgill and sleeper varieties mostly), possibly predatory whales or marine reptiles if your setting has those. Supernatural problems are more likely. Sea elves and other fairly benevolent aquatics usually live in high productivity environments close to shore. Continental shelf territory like what this wight is plummeting into are the homes of locathah and sahuagin. The former probably ignore the character, but the sea devils might try to destroy a wight out of their inherent sense of dominance. So if they're around that's something to worry about.

[bekeleven]

Hey guys! Sorry for the lack of detail. At first I just wasn't sure of pressure damage would even effect him.

Here is some info:

[...]

The Wight's name is Carlo.I had an answer, but it only works for wights named Romero.

[Thurbane]

Acknowledge about the nitpick about undead and Fort saves; on that you are correct.


Crushing pressure damage arguably does affect objects.

Only if you want to go down the path of trying to apply real world physics for which rules aren't defined anywhere in RAW.

[Pleh]

Crushing pressure damage only affects objects with pockets of compressible material (usually air) within them. So a safe with the door shut is vulnerable to compression damage, but a safe with the door open will be unaffected. This is why sinking ships usually bear some horrible infliction from where they initially crushed in and water rushed into the internal spaces but are otherwise whole. Ships that snapped in half while sinking - like the Titanic - are largely untouched by pressure.

A wight is capable of talking. That means it has lungs that can inflate and would be subject to pressure damage. However that can be solved by exhaling. More substantially, the brain can be damaged by extremes of pressure (though this takes much more depth) and it is unclear how an undead brain functions anyway. It's easier to rule that a wight is unaffected by this.

There's air in the digestive tract as well. It isn't as trivial to voluntarily release.


Only if you want to go down the path of trying to apply real world physics for which rules aren't defined anywhere in RAW.

Easier, yes, not not trivially true. The problem is that Stormwrack uses the word, "character" instead of, "living creature". There are a number of ways a character could be some form of animated object (undead, constuct, etc), creating ambiguity in the definition.

I think the best answer continues to be, "RAW is unclear, pick either the easy answer or try applying real world physics if it suits you"

[Mechalich]

There's air in the digestive tract as well. It isn't as trivial to voluntarily release.


So the remnants of the wights digestive tract crush in until the air bursts out through various punctures and water flows in (assuming it wasn't already perforated at some earlier date and this is even a problem. Why should the wight care? Nothing even remotely vital is being damaged. The wight's digestive tract is empty flesh that does nothing metabolically.

Having their lungs or brain crushed is arguably damaging to a wight. Having the entirely superfluous GI track (or really, any internal organs) damaged is meaningless.

There are certainly inorganic characters that might be seriously damaged by extreme pressure - Warforged for instance probably have internal air spaces that would get crushed and this could cause them serious injury - but the undead should be fine (with the possible exception of the brain).

[Necroticplague]

Easier, yes, not not trivially true. The problem is that Stormwrack uses the word, "character" instead of, "living creature". There are a number of ways a character could be some form of animated object (undead, constuct, etc), creating ambiguity in the definition.

I think the best answer continues to be, "RAW is unclear, pick either the easy answer or try applying real world physics if it suits you"

I've pointed out before, this isn't any form of ambiguity. Character is literally a synonym for creature (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary&term=Glossary_dnd_character&alpha=).

A fictional individual within the confines of a fantasy game setting. The words "character" and "creature" are often used synonymously within these rules, since almost any creature could be a character within the game, and every character is a creature (as opposed to an object).
So, Character in the pressure rules means the same thing as Creatures. So, it's a fort save that affects creatures, and doesn't explicitly say it effects objects. Therefore, it doesn't effect objects.

Side note, Undead and Constructs are still Creatures, not Objects.

[Pleh]

So the remnants of the wights digestive tract crush in until the air bursts out through various punctures and water flows in (assuming it wasn't already perforated at some earlier date and this is even a problem. Why should the wight care? Nothing even remotely vital is being damaged. The wight's digestive tract is empty flesh that does nothing metabolically.

Having their lungs or brain crushed is arguably damaging to a wight. Having the entirely superfluous GI track (or really, any internal organs) damaged is meaningless.

There are certainly inorganic characters that might be seriously damaged by extreme pressure - Warforged for instance probably have internal air spaces that would get crushed and this could cause them serious injury - but the undead should be fine (with the possible exception of the brain).

You're forgetting that skeletons have literally no need for flesh at all without being harmed or damaged.

I would argue that wights, as undead, do not need to breathe, thus damage to the lung should be the same as the digestive tract. Likewise, they are immune to critical and precision damage, so it's unlikely their brain is any more critical to them than their toe.

Nowhere in the description of wights or undead traits is the brain or lungs specified as a weak point.

They are corpses animated by negative energy. They have no need for any particular body part to function, just to have sufficient structural integrity for the negative energy to manipulate the corpse. You're literally just dismembering them until there's nothing to animate.

That's why I was arguing earlier they could take the damage once (1d6 should approximate this pretty well since the rupture damage is the same as a knife wound to undead creatures) and stop after the pressure is released.


I've pointed out before, this isn't any form of ambiguity. Character is literally a synonym for creature (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary&term=Glossary_dnd_character&alpha=).

So, Character in the pressure rules means the same thing as Creatures. So, it's a fort save that affects creatures, and doesn't explicitly say it effects objects. Therefore, it doesn't effect objects.

Side note, Undead and Constructs are still Creatures, not Objects.

Point taken, though I will point out that even the text you cite uses the words "often" and "almost", implying that this is definitive RAI, rather than strict RAW. (After all, what RAW definition has any meaning if it only works "most of the time" without also defining when it does not?)

[Necroticplague]

Point taken, though I will point out that even the text you cite uses the words "often" and "almost", implying that this is definitive RAI, rather than strict RAW. (After all, what RAW definition has any meaning if it only works "most of the time" without also defining when it does not?)

1.Yes, because clearly, you need to ask your DM as to whether wearing four shields stack, because the rules about bonuses stacking are prefaced with 'In most cases'....and are thus ambiguous and DM-dependent, and not simply shorthand for 'we know an exception to this rule will be written somewhere eventually, so we're simply acknowledging that, but this rule is otherwise in place.'
2.Even ignoring the 'these are often used synonymously', the 'every character is a creature' is an unambiguous and full-stop.

[Pleh]

O_o

You win. Feel better?

[Nupo]

Are there rules about the push of the pressure, rather than the damage it causes? I am not sure of the maximum depth a human being can reach, before the pressure becomes too much to swim back to surface.
Deep sea pressure presses equally in all directions. It pushes you up as much as it pushes you down, so the pressure does not prevent you from swimming upward.


Having their lungs or brain crushed is arguably damaging to a wight.
Since undead are immune to criticals I take it that no part of them is essential. It could even avoid having it's lungs damaged by inhaling water, but that probably wouldn't be necessary. Remember water is incompressible. Also, since the skull is mostly filled with water it wouldn't really compress. The effects of pressure on humans is more subtle. A human that sinks to the bottom of the ocean doesn't get crushed into a small ball, they die because the high pressure interferes with normal body functions. Wights don't have normal body functions.

[SirNibbles]

Hey guys! Sorry for the lack of detail. At first I just wasn't sure of pressure damage would even effect him.

Here is some info:

The PC in question is a Wight/Hexblade 3 (ECL 6).

He's wearing a chain shirt, has a 14 strength, and has no ranks in swim effectively giving him a +0 swim check.. He has not passes a swim check yet and is currently sinking.

The ocean is calm, but there is a storm blowing in.

Their ship is about 15 miles from the coast.

He has no access to teleportation magic.

The rest of the party is all level 6. It includes a Soul Knife (and romantic interest to the drowning wight in question). A ranger who has been knocked into negatives and stabilized at -9. And a summoning Wizard who is at low hit points and out of spells.

The Wight's name is Carlo.

Don't forget that Armor Check Penalties (-2 for Chain Shirts) are doubled for the Swim skill. He would have a -2 Swim modifier. He can take the shirt off and put it in his bag to have a +2 to Swim instead, at which point he can just take 10 to surface.

[Necroticplague]

O_o

You win. Feel better?

I'm confused, both by the use of the emoticon, and by the question. What do my feelings have to do with the logical argument we were having?

[TheYell]

I suggest he sit on a deck chair and play a banjo and sing "I'll Be Glad When You're Dead, You Rascal You" to the other players as they sink.

[Pleh]

I'm confused, both by the use of the emoticon, and by the question. What do my feelings have to do with the logical argument we were having?

I was beginning to wonder the same thing.

Forgive me, I was sensing a tension or hostility that may not have actually been there.

If a player of mine wanted to wear 4 shields to stack their bonuses, I'd only require that they wear each shield on a different appendage and stack the penalties for having enormous plates strapped to your limbs. If they opted for bucklers, I don't think that's really unreasonable. +4AC, -4 to hit, -4ACP, 20% ASF, and 20lbs to your encumbrance.

If your point was strapping them all to the same arm, then I call that a straw man. I'm arguing for flexibility of rule interpretation to favor versimilitude, not for munchkin chicanery.

If your point is that any such flexibility is a slippery slope to both, I would argue it's the DM's job to adjucate and know the balance to that problem.

Nothing wrong with brainstorming on a forum to come up with a variety of solutions so you can pick the best fit for your game.

RAW should always be distinguished from non RAW (or pseudo RAW) solutions, so I'm not disagreeing with you.

I'm just commenting that the RAW may not be the best answer in this "exceptional" situation, so a DM isn't unreasonable to make their own call in this situation.

Past that, it's nitpicking about what house rule best simulates the scenario, which no one is obligated to, or prohibited from, doing.

[Necroticplague]

\
Forgive me, I was sensing a tension or hostility that may not have actually been there.


No problem, lack of tone in text is infamous for this.

Now, for my part to explain myself, I was attempting a 'reducto ad absurdum'. By showing that your premise * leads to something that is inherently incorrect or ridiculous**, that your premise must be incorrect. I was then trying to proffer my own explanation, which I believed to be more robust***.

*=that phrases like 'usually', 'generally', 'often', and similar mean that the rule isn't some kind kind of default, and creates a rule ambiguity requiring a DM to decide, and there's no RAW
**=that something as basic (literally in a section called 'the basics') and important to the game as how bonuses stack with each other, a massive part of how the game works, is left without real rules for it
***=that such language does indicate a default RAW in place, but acknowledges that exceptions will be/are written into the rules