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Doc_Outlands
2007-08-07, 12:18 PM
character background: high-level Sorcerer

issue: metamagic-buffed 1st-level Ray of Enfeeblement spell

challenge: How do you adjudicate a spell level of a metamagicked spell for the Black Lore of Moil feat? The PHB states that for purposes of magic items, a spell with metamagic feats applied is treated as a spell of that level. For all other purposes, however, the spell retains its base level. So - if the Sorcerer buffs his RoE with Chain Spell and Split Ray, requiring a 6th-level slot, would it be treated as a 1st-level spell (+1d6 negative energy dmg) for BLoM or would it be considered a 6th-level spell (+4d6 negative energy dmg)?


(originally, this was for Disrupt Undead, until I realized DU does positive energy damage and BLoM does negative energy damage. This, of course, creates a really interesting method for *healing* your undead warband...)

Arbitrarity
2007-08-07, 12:23 PM
1'st level. Raising spell level (not cost/spell slot) is heighten spell's job.

Doc_Outlands
2007-08-07, 02:00 PM
So I use Heighten Spell to notch RoE up to 6th, then pump it up to ... 11TH?!? with Chain + Split Ray??

ouch.....

blue_fenix
2007-08-07, 02:33 PM
Not quite. A 1st level spell heightened to 6th can still use up a spell slot up to 9th using +3 metamagic (let's say it's still, silent, and enlarged), but it's considered a 6th level spell for calculating dc and other effects.

Doc_Outlands
2007-08-07, 02:36 PM
Right - with Heighten, I can get RoE up to 6th for purposes of getting +4d6 negative energy damage. Adding metamagic as proposed means using an even-higher slot... Yeesh...

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-08-07, 03:25 PM
Right - with Heighten, I can get RoE up to 6th for purposes of getting +4d6 negative energy damage. Adding metamagic as proposed means using an even-higher slot... Yeesh...

No, you got it backwards..

Your spell takes up a 6th level spell slot, but only counts as a 1st level spell, so would only do an extra 1d6 negative energy damage. You could heighten it to a 4th level spell, taking up a 9th level spell slot, being considered a 4th level spell for all other purposes, and only doing 4d6 negative energy damage.

Also, Split Ray is pointless on Ray of Enfeeblement. Since it's a penalty to Str, not damage, it does not stack with itself. Chain Spell is also sub-optimal since secondary targets take half penalty.

MountainKing
2007-08-07, 03:34 PM
While it doesn't stack, it CAN be targeted at a second target, so there's no real reason not to split it when you're trying to do cute things with metamagic.

Two questions for OP:

1.) Why Black Lore of Moil? Runebones only add to spells that do damage... is ability damage some kind of loophole?

2.) Why not just take Corrupt Spell and then apply it to Disrupt Undead? Doesn't that make it evil and changes the polarity on the kind of divine damage it does?

Doc_Outlands
2007-08-07, 03:44 PM
No, you got it backwards..

Your spell takes up a 6th level spell slot, but only counts as a 1st level spell, so would only do an extra 1d6 negative energy damage. You could heighten it to a 4th level spell, taking up a 9th level spell slot, being considered a 4th level spell for all other purposes, and only doing 4d6 negative energy damage.

Also, Split Ray is pointless on Ray of Enfeeblement. Since it's a penalty to Str, not damage, it does not stack with itself. Chain Spell is also sub-optimal since secondary targets take half penalty.

If I jacked it to a 4th level spell, via Heighten Spell, then BLoM would give it +3d6 negative energy damage (+1d6 - 1st; +2d6 - 2nd&3rd; +3d6 - 4th&5th; etc), but that's a minor point. Adding Chain and Split get it up to a 9th-level slot (which means a Sorc18 - this will be important). With Split Ray, the Sorc18 can engage two different primary targets, so STR damage not stacking is irrelevant. Then, Chain allows him to jump secondary arcs to as many secondary targets as he has caster levels - so he can hit an ideal 38 targets with RoE. The first two would be at full STR(5-11)+NegEner(3-18) damage with the other 36 at half that (2-5 STR and 1-9 NegEner). That could seriously damage a massed infantry formation...

Arbitrarity
2007-08-07, 03:49 PM
Or, like a smart sorceror, he could use Wail of the Banshee, seeing as mooks have useless saves, so that 95% of them die. Or weird, even, though it's two saves. Or Cloudkill, or anything else AOE.

Even fireball, for crying out loud!

Doc_Outlands
2007-08-07, 04:20 PM
Two questions for OP:

1.) Why Black Lore of Moil? Runebones only add to spells that do damage... is ability damage some kind of loophole?

2.) Why not just take Corrupt Spell and then apply it to Disrupt Undead? Doesn't that make it evil and changes the polarity on the kind of divine damage it does?

1.) BLoM only states "any necromancy spell you can cast can be cast instead as a Moilian spell." I don't see anything in the feat text that requires the spell to do damage of any sort, unless you take the position "dealing an extra 1d6 points of negative energy damage per two levels" requires damage to begin with.

2.) What book is that in? Would that let you use Disrupt Undead against the living? Now, if there were a positive-energy equivalent of BLoM, I have a character-concept who'd jump on that one! Yeah, a Split/Chained Disrupt Undead w/ +3d6 positive energy ... Radiant Servant, eat yer sunbeam! :smallbiggrin:

Doc_Outlands
2007-08-10, 01:00 PM
bump, because my last post has unanswered questions. thanks!

Tyger
2007-08-10, 01:13 PM
And of course, the unending discussion about whether or not Chain Spell can be applied to Rays. The longer that debate goes on, the more inclined I am to think that it can't, but that's a whole other question.

Doc_Outlands
2007-08-10, 07:09 PM
Well, a ray has a range greater than touch and specifies a single target. Therefore, it fulfills the requirements for the Chain Spell metamagic.

Jack Mann
2007-08-10, 07:40 PM
Corrupt spell first appeared in the Book of Vile Darkness. Next it appeared in Complete Divine.

Essentially, it gives the spell the [evil] descriptor, and turns half of the damage dealt by the spell into either unholy damage (BoVD) or simply untyped (CD), with the fluff that it results directly from divine power. In either case, it uses a spell slot one higher. Pretty lousy. The Book of Vile Darkness version is worse, though. You choose a single spell to which you can apply it. To apply the feat to any other spell, you have to take the feat again. Utterly not worthwhile.

Tyger
2007-08-10, 08:29 PM
Well, a ray has a range greater than touch and specifies a single target. Therefore, it fulfills the requirements for the Chain Spell metamagic.

Actually, no. Ray spells do not specify a single target. They actually don't have a "target" entry at all in the spell effects. They specify "Effect: Ray" rather than "Target: One living creature" (this from Hold Monster). And thus the debate continues.

Personally, I used to fall in the "Rays specify a target... you can only hit one target with a ray!" camp. But the wording is pretty interesting, and open to interpretation. I've come around to the other side, and am more willing to take a literal interpretation of the wording of the feat. But its open to interpretation, so neither is RAW, both are RAI.

One more point for Rays spells not being chainable... they don't require a target at all. You can fire a ray into the air, or the ground. No target required. Whereas you can not cast Hold Monster without a living creature as your target. Great, now I'm even firmer into the "NO" camp. Bah.