Most Broken Cleric

[Dancingdeath]

This is just a mental exercise on my part. As the title suggests I'm theory crafting the most brokenly powerful level 1 cleric I can imagine.

I'm thinking a Human (for the bonus feat) with the Saint template. Gestalt Cloistered Cleric/Fighter so I lose zero combat potency. And a deity with the Planning Domain for the Extended Spell metamagic feat. So I can persist spells from the get go. No magic items (he is level 1) but a reliquary holy symbol. Take a flaw and get Extra Turning. Able to persist 3 spells at level 1. Full plate, large steel shield.

So I have fast healing 1, 3 spells persisted, great AC, lots of immunities, and a fair number of spells to boot.

Can anyone think of a more broken version? This is a thought experiment only. I'm trying to keep it to one flaw, and one template. Base race LA +0. Nonmagical gear. And go!

[Grod_The_Giant]

Crusader or Warblade instead of Fighter would be a good start. Pretty sure Saint has LA, though, making you're actually an Ecl... 3? character.

[Dagroth]

Pretty sure that Saint is an Acquired Template that you can't get until ~level 3 or so?

[Buufreak]

Also noticing you are calling out that at lvl 1 he wouldn't have magic items, presumably because of cost. You then list full plate, which has a market price of 1500gp. Just trying to clear up where the goal posts are for this bit of theorycraft.

[Karl Aegis]

Which spells are you persisting that are more powerful than Knowledge Devotion? Why do you have so much money?

[Vaz]

Saint Template is +2 LA, so 3rd level, also.

[tyckspoon]

Which spells are you persisting that are more powerful than Knowledge Devotion? Why do you have so much money?

At low levels, when you can't reliably throw a high Knowledge check? Divine Favor is competitive up to its cap (at +3, and it gets there faster if you have some way to pump your caster level.) It's a good question, tho- persisting at very low ECL is a neat trick, but what are you actually getting for it? There aren't a lot of persistable level 1 spells at all, and most of them are less than impressive (a quick look at Core+Spell Compendium would let you do something like Bless + Divine Favor + Ice Gauntlet. Which gives you.. +2 to hit, +1 damage, and what is effectively a slightly worse +1 Cold spiked gauntlet that you can't get rid of, so I hope you're ok only having one free hand. You're still at best even or behind the 'Be a Barbarian, hit stuff while Raging' benchmark of easily achievable fight.) It gets better if you have some way to yoink spells from other classes, but you've already spent nearly all your build resources on the persist trick.

[Pleh]

The OP seems to have answered all these questions (even if they didn't use their own rules correctly).


Snip

the most brokenly powerful level 1 cleric

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Gestalt

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trying to keep it to one flaw, and one template. Base race LA +0. Nonmagical gear. And go!

For money, probably best to use the Equipment A La Carte (for the most room to optimize) from PHB pg 111, giving the theorycraft cleric 5d4x10 starting gold. Since the goal is to make the most broken first level cleric POSSIBLE, best to maximize this value at 200gp.

EDIT: a small caveat I just thought of. You *could* rule that Starting Gold would take the better of the two classes that you gestalt together, though Cleric already has the second best starting gold of any of the classes in the PHB. Only Fighter, Ranger, and Paladin gets 6d4x10, so you can decide if that extra 40gp is just what your broken level 1 gestalt cleric needs. Make sure its worth taking Fighter, Paladin, or Ranger.

[Psionic Dog]

Broken in what ways? In single combat at level 1 its hard to best divine metamagic + fell drain + inflict light wounds. Hold the charge until you connect. If gestalting go with barbarian for extra HP, BAB, and fast movement.

[lylsyly]

You didn't mention an edition so I am assuming 3.5.

Saint (BoED) is an acquired template that you cannot get until level 6, with an odd mechanic for buying it off.

The Template is on page 184, but you have to read the section on sainthood on page 29.

[Eldariel]

On level 1, I'm not sure DMM: Persist is worth the feats. You can't persist much of substance beyond +1s and Lesser Vigor, which really isn't optimal use of the feats.

I'd tend towards Law Devotion, Knowledge Devotion and last one as domain for use. That is to say, for a spell with spontaneous domain casting (e.g. Enlarge Person, Rhino's Rush and Silent Image are decent options). Domain granted powers such as Travel and Luck are nice. Animal Devotion deserves consideration too. Rebuking fuels Devotions and keeps you underlings.

DMM: Fell Drain is great L1. Hard to get a good carrier spell: Magic Missile is L2 in Force domain. Hail of Stone is not available. Few do exist tho. Burning Hands for instance is in Fire-domain, though sadly that falls prey to Evasion and has a relatively short range. Still, AOE negative levels are quite strong on 1st level, even vs. level inappropriate encounters, and being able to spontaneously convert any of your (utility) spells to a damage spell with a draining effect is very strong. As a bonus it creates wights which you could potentially control, though not that easily on first level.

I rightly can't think what would be the optimal option for L1 though. There are lots of options and e.g. other Devotions are strong too. Certainly, I'd prefer to stick to an actual ECL1 character and not gestalt, since those kinda defeat the point - in Gestalt I'd actually tend towards some Wis-to-AC class on the other side to save money on the armor and then use Mage Armor from Cleric-domain.

[Darrin]

If you go by damage, my Apocalypse Martini (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=15634823&postcount=19) cleric can do 3.5 trillion damage at level 1. Although with three wishes, you can do a lot of other silly stuff instead.

[GilesTheCleric]

I think Fell Drain is just about the most powerful thing at level one, as was noted above. If you wanted to go into the dubious Sanctum/ Earth spell shenanigans for higher level spells, that is also clearly good if it's allowed.

Why did you want persisted vigour? At level one, you have so little HP that you're going to be dead in one or two hits anyway. Fast healing isn't going to make much of a difference.

[Amashelle]

Knowledge Devotion requires 5 ranks in any knowledge skill. SP Cap at level 1 is 4, so you can't take that feat at first level unless your DM waives either SP caps or the feat prereq. (Though as an exercise in hypothetical thought, I guess that might not matter...)

[Mato]

On level 1, I'm not sure DMM: Persist is worth the feats.It's not. According to Faiths and Pantheons you can just apply any metamagic you want in any temple of Mystra if you worship her. Just aim to build one inside your bag of holding or something and carry a temple everywhere you go to apply Persist to anything for free.

And don't forget to take the initiate of Mystra feat at the third level so you can forget antimagic is a thing.

[Crake]

Broken in what ways? In single combat at level 1 its hard to best divine metamagic + fell drain + inflict light wounds. Hold the charge until you connect. If gestalting go with barbarian for extra HP, BAB, and fast movement.

I can do you one better, Fell drain, easy metamagic (fell drain), apply it to sonic snap, no save, just negative level, guaranteed kill against any 1HD enemy, but beware of wights.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I'm pretty sure there's a Fat Jumper build that's a 1st level Cleric. Use a domain that gets Enlarge Person, get a high enough jump check to consistently do a 10 ft. high jump, and per the falling object rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/environment.htm#fallingObjects) as long as your enlarged character plus gear weighs 4,000+ pounds you'll deal 20d6 damage to anyone you land on. Since you control which squares you land in, and the creatures don't have a chance to move until their turn, it's generally considered to have no saving throw and it doesn't require an attack roll.

However, a Psychic Warrior 1 with Expansion and Up The Walls does it better since you don't need to optimize the Jump skill with that.

[Eldariel]

Knowledge Devotion requires 5 ranks in any knowledge skill. SP Cap at level 1 is 4, so you can't take that feat at first level unless your DM waives either SP caps or the feat prereq. (Though as an exercise in hypothetical thought, I guess that might not matter...)

There's a separate means for Clerics to acquire those feats, trading in the equivalent domain. CC mentions as much.

[Crake]

There's a separate means for Clerics to acquire those feats, trading in the equivalent domain. CC mentions as much.

to be fair, that clause doesn't say anything about being able to ignore feat prerequisites.

[INoKnowNames]

I can do you one better, Fell drain, easy metamagic (fell drain), apply it to sonic snap, no save, just negative level, guaranteed kill against any 1HD enemy, but beware of wights.

..why would you need to worry about wights? You're a Cleric! Use them to start forming your Undead Army, right?


I'm pretty sure there's a Fat Jumper build that's a 1st level Cleric. Use a domain that gets Enlarge Person, get a high enough jump check to consistently do a 10 ft. high jump, and per the falling object rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/environment.htm#fallingObjects) as long as your enlarged character plus gear weighs 4,000+ pounds you'll deal 20d6 damage to anyone you land on. Since you control which squares you land in, and the creatures don't have a chance to move until their turn, it's generally considered to have no saving throw and it doesn't require an attack roll.

However, a Psychic Warrior 1 with Expansion and Up The Walls does it better since you don't need to optimize the Jump skill with that.

That is a -literal- video game boss battle. Except without rules for being able to dodge such an attack until the Fat Jumper smashes the floor and falls into a bottomless pit.

In any case, the 'thought experiment' of the op falls kinda flat as has been noted because Gestalt -anything- means you're only part Cleric in the first place, and the Saint Template can be taken no earlier than 6th level, which makes you an 8th level (potentially 7th in gestalt?) character, at least until you buy it off. And you'd have needed to take 3 Exalted Feats to do so, so no persisting for a while (and how many effects could you possibly need to persist at 1st level in the first place?).'

Also, Most Broken 1st level anything still goes to Pun-Pun as far as I can tell.

[Yklikt]

I'm pretty sure there's a Fat Jumper build that's a 1st level Cleric. Use a domain that gets Enlarge Person, get a high enough jump check to consistently do a 10 ft. high jump, and per the falling object rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/environment.htm#fallingObjects) as long as your enlarged character plus gear weighs 4,000+ pounds you'll deal 20d6 damage to anyone you land on. Since you control which squares you land in, and the creatures don't have a chance to move until their turn, it's generally considered to have no saving throw and it doesn't require an attack roll.

However, a Psychic Warrior 1 with Expansion and Up The Walls does it better since you don't need to optimize the Jump skill with that.

But character not an object

[Psionic Dog]

I can do you one better, Fell drain, easy metamagic (fell drain), apply it to sonic snap, no save, just negative level, guaranteed kill against any 1HD enemy, but beware of wights.

Sonic snap is on the wizard/sorcerer list. Not sure how a cleric would get it.


I'm pretty sure there's a Fat Jumper build that's a 1st level Cleric. Use a domain that gets Enlarge Person, get a high enough jump check to consistently do a 10 ft. high jump, and per the falling object rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/environment.htm#fallingObjects) as long as your enlarged character plus gear weighs 4,000+ pounds you'll deal 20d6 damage to anyone you land on. Since you control which squares you land in, and the creatures don't have a chance to move until their turn, it's generally considered to have no saving throw and it doesn't require an attack roll.

However, a Psychic Warrior 1 with Expansion and Up The Walls does it better since you don't need to optimize the Jump skill with that.

Jump falling doesn't work by RAW unless you can start with a 10ft elevation advantage. Strictly speaking the high-jump is vertical only while the long jump achieves a peak height only at the midpoint. While you ought to be able to jump on top of another character by RAI, any DM going by RAI is also likely to nerf the falling damage or at least allow a reflex save.

[Dancingdeath]

I said LA+0 for the base race. Then add a template. Obvious. And yes Saint is LA+2, but I meant one character level.


Everyone here must be rules lawyer level 20. It's just a bit of fun guys.

[INoKnowNames]

Well, by that logic, one could slowly Diplomance a low level dragon into eternal servitude and have a high level arcanist age said dragon 300+ years into the future. Bam: Most Broken 1st level Cleric, with open race, item, spell, and feat choices, because your best friend is a Great Wyrm Prismatic Dragon.

If you have no procedure with your post, I'm not sure what you should expect out of the responses. Personally, the low level Fell Drain and the Boss Stomp strategems were both quite interesting while being more comment-able.

[Dancingdeath]

The replies were fine. I'm more of a vague notion kinda guy than a bunch of strict set of rules guy. Come up with an idea and have fun with it ya know?

[INoKnowNames]

The replies were fine. I'm more of a vague notion kinda guy than a bunch of strict set of rules guy. Come up with an idea and have fun with it ya know?

Ah. Then, yeah, this thread might be more fitting for a roleplay/what if tag. And on that notion, Cleric who slowly diplomances a high level companion to serve for them is my vote. You can keep your fast healing; I've got a Phoenix. :smalltongue: