Hel vs. The Dark One

[AchtungNight]

I recently raised the issue in the strip #1081 feedback thread that Hel's character is similar to the Dark One's. Both are evil gods. Both are seeking to overthrow the rest of the gods and increase their own power in doing so. Both have the rationalization that they have been given a raw deal in the past and deserve a better deal for their worshippers.

I wanted to create this thread to discuss the issue further if people are interested. I have limited time, so I may or may not participate much. If there is already a thread devoted to the issue of which I am unaware, I apologize and the admins may do with this thread as they will. If people are not interested in the discussion, fine, they can let the thread die through inattention. If you do care, your constructively stated opinion is welcomed.

My personal opinions regarding this- I find the Dark One more interesting than Hel and a better villain. He's been around longer, he has an understandable motivation even though he's evil, and he has not corrupted my favorite OOtS member into a bland disturbing shadow of his former self. I don't think he deserves to win- reasons for this include that in the ideal universe no evil race that practices things like slavery and human sacrifice should have power, and Redcloak needs to face the consequences of his actions in the real world as well as in his own mind- but like other fantasy villains with similar understandable motivations (good examples include Magneto and Tad Williams' Storm King), the Dark One's psychology makes him more intriguing and you want to see him win a little even if he should lose overall.

Hel- I don't know. Do all races deserve a fair share of power in the world? If good undead creatures existed in the OOtS World as well as bad, then yes, maybe. But we haven't seen any good undead except Soon and the Ghost-Martyrs and one exception does not merit a change to the rule. Virtually all undead in this world are evil and bent on the destruction of life as we know it. Malik and Undurkon seemed different at first, but they were ultimately proven evil beyond doubt. If we had more good undead in this world along with the bad, as there are in some universes (Buffy-verse, Marvel's Blade, even classic D&D), I might be willing to give undead a chance at their fair share. But as it is, I'm not. Hel needs to be brought down. Durkon needs to be resurrected and restored to the party. This arc needs to end. I will be happy when it does, and I'm not sure I'll like it if Hel wins even a little bit.

If the Dark One wins some concessions for his goblins, that's fine by me. Jirix, Right-Eye, even Redcloak before his fall (read Start of Darkness and the comic to watch that fall), they deserve some good things in their future. If goblins can give up evil, slavery, human sacrifice, etc, and live in harmony with other races, I would be okay with them getting a better deal in life. Does the Dark One really want that? Would he go too far and confuse equality with power? It may be interesting to watch and find out. Regardless, it's clear that Hel wants power, not equality, and evil, not good. Thus she needs to lose, sooner the better. And Thrym really should look for a more deserving love interest.

[Jasdoif]

....and he has not corrupted my favorite OOtS member into a bland disturbing shadow of his former self.You do realize Malack didn't worship Hel, right?

[Nephrahim]

I was also thinking of this exact thing, but it seems like the latest comic attempts to foil that view, at least slightly, by portraying Hel as a god who has no interest in EARNING worship, she just WANTS it. The goblins seem to have a stronger case, so far, although there could be more to them then we know as well.

[thereaper]

An important thing to understand is that there have been a lot of hints in the prequels that the Dark One does not have goblinkind's best interests at heart, and that the Plan has actually made things worse for them. So, he and Hel are actually even more alike than they initially appear.

[Mic_128]

An important thing to understand is that there have been a lot of hints in the prequels that the Dark One does not have goblinkind's best interests at heart, and that the Plan has actually made things worse for them.

In the short run, yes. In the long run, when he can bargain for a fair treatment of his people, no.

That's the other thing. Hel wants to rule supreme. The Dark One (as far as we know) wants to simply blackmail his way to earning fair treatment for Goblinoids.

[Mordaedil]

He's also the only deity with a purple aura, which means he's his own pantheon.

I reckon this might mean Hel might bite it to the Snarl, though after all we know, I kinda hope the Dark One's plan actually pans out. What else would it all have been for, otherwise?

[thereaper]

In the short run, yes. In the long run, when he can bargain for a fair treatment of his people, no.

That's the other thing. Hel wants to rule supreme. The Dark One (as far as we know) wants to simply blackmail his way to earning fair treatment for Goblinoids.

This is what Redcloak claims.

SoD suggests otherwise.

[WoodStock_PV]

This is what Redcloak claims.

SoD suggests otherwise.

SoD spoilers below.
I don't remember that part in SoD, to which one ar you refering? As far as I know the Dark One IS motivated by revenge, but he also wants, as much as, to promote goblinkind, his speech to the human kings indicate this.
One thing I noted is that Right-eye had a good life at the Goblin Village, a job, house, loving family, etc. (maybe they were impoverished, but we don't see any of that apart from the terrain type being dirt) and the Hobgoblins they recruited before the Azure city siege also had some sort of good life (an impressive city with fortifications, big walls, roads and, from what we've seen from the hobos, societal structure (in other words, culture). The same thing applies, maybe they were impoverished, but we did not actually saw that (again only the terrain type indicated poverty). What I'm getting at is that maybe the plan is not the best thing in the world for goblinoids, but you should not confuse a bad or flawed plan for not caring with the goblins in general.
The way I see things the goblins (the Dark One mostly) are like an animal cornered (is he cornered? Dunno, but he feels like he is), it has nothing to lose so it will try to take his foe with him.
I didn't mean for the above post to be rude ^^'. Also, sorry for any english mistakes. o/

[MReav]

Hel- I don't know. Do all races deserve a fair share of power in the world? If good undead creatures existed in the OOtS World as well as bad, then yes, maybe. But we haven't seen any good undead except Soon and the Ghost-Martyrs and one exception does not merit a change to the rule. Virtually all undead in this world are evil and bent on the destruction of life as we know it.

Well, Eugene is a ghost and he technically qualifies as good.

[Riftwolf]

Well, Eugene is a ghost and he technically qualifies as good.

Technically, he's not undead. Just dead.
Where exactly you draw that lines been debated since Edgar Allen Poe, however.

[Jasdoif]

One thing I noted is that Right-eye had a good life at the Goblin Village, a job, house, loving family, etc. (maybe they were impoverished, but we don't see any of that apart from the terrain type being dirt) and the Hobgoblins they recruited before the Azure city siege also had some sort of good life (an impressive city with fortifications, big walls, roads and, from what we've seen from the hobos, societal structure (in other words, culture).Exactly. Right-Eye's village was doing pretty well, and then Redcloak got them all killed to serve the Plan by murdering his brother instead of Xykon, who'd made a habit of killing them at his whim. The Hobgoblin Legion were doing pretty well, and then Redcloak got them to take over Azure City and take a bunch of losses in the process.

It appears as though Redcloak is rather into actively promoting the deaths of the goblins he's supposedly serving the interests of. It's apparently not enough of a problem for the Dark One to do anything about it, either.

[TidePriestess]

Exactly. Right-Eye's village was doing pretty well, and then Redcloak got them all killed to serve the Plan by murdering his brother instead of Xykon, who'd made a habit of killing them at his whim. The Hobgoblin Legion were doing pretty well, and then Redcloak got them to take over Azure City and take a bunch of losses in the process.

It appears as though Redcloak is rather into actively promoting the deaths of the goblins he's supposedly serving the interests of. It's apparently not enough of a problem for the Dark One to do anything about it, either.
To be fair, the hobgoblins did get to take out their main enemy and claim an actual nation; certainly, all of them who've expressed an opinion about the Azure City conquest have felt positively about it.

[Jasdoif]

To be fair, the hobgoblins did get to take out their main enemy and claim an actual nation; certainly, all of them who've expressed an opinion about the Azure City conquest have felt positively about it.To be fair, the Dark One's still ready to throw their lives away in pursuit of power, supposedly for their equality...well, aside from the ones that already died taking over Azure City, which was done for that pursuit of power anyway.

Besides which, Hel's on course to take out her main enemy and claim an actual dominion; certainly, all her expressed opinions about the end of the world have positive feelings :smalltongue:

[TidePriestess]

To be fair, the Dark One's still ready to throw their lives away in pursuit of power, supposedly for their equality...well, aside from the ones that already died taking over Azure City, which was done for that pursuit of power anyway.

Besides which, Hel's on course to take out her main enemy and claim an actual dominion; certainly, all her expressed opinions about the end of the world have positive feelings :smalltongue:
Right, but all the ones who die join the Dark One's army, which for the legions, seems like a lateral move at worst.

[Jasdoif]

Right, but all the ones who die join the Dark One's army, which for the legions, seems like a lateral move at worst.Well, I guess it's possible those hobgoblins believe their lives are worthless except as the Dark One's tools....Doesn't really seem conducive to claims of seeking equality, though.

[woweedd]

Well, I guess it's possible those hobgoblins believe their lives are worthless except as the Dark One's tools....Doesn't really seem conducive to claims of seeking equality, though.
Redcloak is suffering from the world's most massive Sunk Cost Fallacy. He's sacrificed so much for The Plan, from his brother to thousands of hobgoblins, that giving up now would, in his mind, be tantamount to letting them die in vain. He can't acknowledge that he's wrong because of what his being wrong would imply. Namely, that he's been spending years, aiding in the plans of a megalomaniac Lich and throwing away who knows how many Goblinoid lives, for nothing.

[TidePriestess]

Redcloak is suffering from the world's most massive Sunk Cost Fallacy. He's sacrificed so much for The Plan, form his brother to thousands of hobgoblins, that giving up now would, in his mind, be tantamount to letting them die in vain. He can't acknowledge that he's wrong because of what his being wrong would imply. Namely, that he's been spending years, aiding in the plans of a megalomaniac Lich and throwing away who knows how many Goblinoid lives, for nothing.
I honestly want Redcloak to win, at least partially. Not necessarily from fulfilling the Plan; possibly realizing that the Dark One isn't worth following, and that he needs to follow a new path to help the goblinoid people. But I very much don't want him to die in vain either way.

[woweedd]

I honestly want Redcloak to win, at least partially. Not necessarily from fulfilling the Plan; possibly realizing that the Dark One isn't worth following, and that he needs to follow a new path to help the goblinoid people. But I very much don't want him to die in vain either way.
I think Redcloak is gonna die. Whether he's gonna die in vain? Still up for debate. I think Rich is going to resolve the Goblinoid question at some point, but Redcloak probably won't be the one to resolve it.

[Jasdoif]

Redcloak is suffering from the world's most massive Sunk Cost Fallacy. He's sacrificed so much for The Plan, form his brother to thousands of hobgoblins, that giving up now would, in his mind, be tantamount to letting them die in vain. He can't acknowledge that he's wrong because of what his being wrong would imply. Namely, that he's been spending years, aiding in the plans of a megalomaniac Lich and throwing away who knows how many Goblinoid lives, for nothing.Precisely. He's compelled to complete the Plan, for his own peace of mind. Redcloak's utterly convinced he has to be the one to bring equality to the goblin people. No matter how many of them have to die, or how much of their own progress towards equality he has to destroy, to do it.

That's the Dark One's favored agent. It's a little difficult to take (Redcloak's claims of) the Dark One's claims of wanting "equality for the goblin people" seriously when "the goblin people are expendable" is on display like that.

[TidePriestess]

Precisely. He's compelled to complete the Plan, for his own peace of mind. Redcloak's utterly convinced he has to be the one to bring equality to the goblin people. No matter how many of them have to die, or how much of their own progress towards equality he has to destroy, to do it.

That's the Dark One's favored agent. It's a little difficult to take (Redcloak's claims of) the Dark One's claims of wanting "equality for the goblin people" seriously when "the goblin people are expendable" is on display like that.
That's just par for the course for gods, at least for half of them (all of them who were in favor of destroying the world).

[Jasdoif]

That's just par for the course for gods, at least for half of them (all of them who were in favor of destroying the world).Is there a point in there somewhere? I'm not seeing one.

[halfeye]

That's the Dark One's favored agent. It's a little difficult to take (Redcloak's claims of) the Dark One's claims of wanting "equality for the goblin people" seriously when "the goblin people are expendable" is on display like that.

Stalin was a god?! :smalltongue:

[Mic_128]

Exactly. Right-Eye's village was doing pretty well, and then Redcloak got them all killed to serve the Plan

And their village before that was doing fine until the Saphire Guard came and nearly wiped them out.


The Hobgoblin Legion were doing pretty well, and then Redcloak got them to take over Azure City and take a bunch of losses in the process. At which point they now have an actual soverign nation, complete with treaties with other nations and races. That's a big step up and a serious step towards the Dark One's goals of having Goblinoids treated like other races.


It appears as though Redcloak is rather into actively promoting the deaths of the goblins he's supposedly serving the interests of. It's apparently not enough of a problem for the Dark One to do anything about it, either.

Yes, he was until he realised he was like Xykon during the attack on Azure City. Since then he's been caring about his hobgoblin cousins.

Other than "Redcloak did some shades of grey stuff and The Dark One's orders had a few goblins die" what evidence do you have that the Dark One is lying about his desires?

[woweedd]

And their village before that was doing fine until the Saphire Guard came and nearly wiped them out.

At which point they now have an actual soverign nation, complete with treaties with other nations and races. That's a big step up and a serious step towards the Dark One's goals of having Goblinoids treated like other races.



Yes, he was until he realised he was like Xykon during the attack on Azure City. Since then he's been caring about his hobgoblin cousins.

Other than "Redcloak did some shades of grey stuff and The Dark One's orders had a few goblins die" what evidence do you have that the Dark One is lying about his desires?
Even if Redcloak believe that his goal really is best for the Goblin people, the way he's going about it is...not the best. Sadly, he's in too deep now. Even if he wanted to quit, he couldn't.

[Jasdoif]

And their village before that was doing fine until the Saphire Guard came and nearly wiped them out.Pretty sure the Sapphire Guard doesn't serve Hel, so I'm not sure what your point here is.


At which point they now have an actual soverign nation, complete with treaties with other nations and races. That's a big step up and a serious step towards the Dark One's goals of having Goblinoids treated like other races.All true. And yet, Redcloak's back on the "risk the entire world to hope for concessions from the gods" Plan. Something much closer to "doom" now that the sole remaining Gate is responsible for the gods not having destroyed the world already.


Yes, he was until he realised he was like Xykon during the attack on Azure City. Since then he's been caring about his hobgoblin cousins.He likes not having to kill them personally (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0827.html), at least.


Other than "Redcloak did some shades of grey stuff and The Dark One's orders had a few goblins die" what evidence do you have that the Dark One is lying about his desires?Frankly? We don't really know what the Dark One's desires are, because he hasn't made a personal appearance in the comic the way Hel has. Everything attributed to him has been from subjective tales told by someone else, principally Redcloak (who as mentioned has reasons for pursuing the Plan independently from anything to do with goblin people). The only evidence there really is, is that none of the things Redcloak has done for/to the goblins have caused the Dark One to revoke his clerical powers.

Also, I'm not sure phrasing "murdering his brother in favor of the lich who enslaved his village" as "some shades of grey stuff" is particularly accurate.

[thereaper]

And their village before that was doing fine until the Saphire Guard came and nearly wiped them out.

At which point they now have an actual soverign nation, complete with treaties with other nations and races. That's a big step up and a serious step towards the Dark One's goals of having Goblinoids treated like other races.

Which was also a result of the Plan.

The goblins of Right-Eye's village were treated like other races, so much so that they went to the same circus as humans and everyone was apparently fine with it. They were even allowed "backstage" to see the MitD.

[dps]

That's just par for the course for gods, at least for half of them (all of them who were in favor of destroying the world).

At least one of the gods who voted in favor of destroying the world did so on the grounds that the souls of mortals are too precious to allow the Snarl to unmake them.

[unbeliever536]

To be fair, the Dark One's still ready to throw their lives away in pursuit of power, supposedly for their equality...well, aside from the ones that already died taking over Azure City, which was done for that pursuit of power anyway.

Besides which, Hel's on course to take out her main enemy and claim an actual dominion; certainly, all her expressed opinions about the end of the world have positive feelings :smalltongue:

I think it depends on how you take his message to Redcloak in #704 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0704.html), and how much of the plan you think was the Dark One's rather than his mortal priests'. The obvious reading is, "we're getting down to the last couple of gates, don't fail to execute my plan", but you could also read it as, "if you keep getting millions of goblins killed with nothing to show for it, we're going to have to back to the drawing board, because this plan is closing in on 'not worth it'."

[B. Dandelion]

I think it depends on how you take his message to Redcloak in #704 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0704.html), and how much of the plan you think was the Dark One's rather than his mortal priests'. The obvious reading is, "we're getting down to the last couple of gates, don't fail to execute my plan", but you could also read it as, "if you keep getting millions of goblins killed with nothing to show for it, we're going to have to back to the drawing board, because this plan is closing in on 'not worth it'."

Again!? Damn it, this was just a few days ago! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22190364&postcount=338)

The only real way to read it that way is to focus on the potential ambiguity to the total detriment of common sense and surrounding context. It's a twist in search of a plot that would give it meaning.

The book 5 commentary actually did mention that moment and said it was Redcloak "not being let off the hook for his god's evil plans for the Gates" among other things that make it clear that no, the Dark One is not at all expressing any possible concern for goblin lives lost, as I have... rather vehemently listed elsewhere recently. But that one is probably the most definitive.

[martianmister]

Dark One is basically God version of Redcloak. I can't see him anything independent of Redcloak.


My personal opinions regarding this- I find the Dark One more interesting than Hel and a better villain. He's been around longer, he has an understandable motivation even though he's evil, and he has not corrupted my favorite OOtS member into a bland disturbing shadow of his former self.

Well..he has corrupted my favorite OotS character into a bland disturbing shadow of his former self, but I still like him. :smalltongue:

[Goblin_Priest]

It feels to me like a lot of what is said about the Dark One is either based upon his agents' actions or second-hand accounts of questionable reliability.

I mean, even Redcloak says he's not in contact with him. Take away the message he got when donning the mantle, and all he's got is "I'm still getting my spells".

The Plan, itself, does not appear inherently evil to me. Immoral, sure, but outright evil? Is there no good person that believes that Weapons of Mass Destruction can be a tool for good? That the nukes used on Japan saved a lot of lives that would have been lost by pursuing the conflict further, for example? Sure, holding the world hostage does tip on the evil side more than on the good side, but the overall morality of the gods in the OotS universe is pretty sketchy to begin with. If killing every single mortal is considered amoral and that good types would consider it, are we really all that far from this?

The only overt evidence of the Dark One being evil is Redcloak explicitly stating as much, once I believe. Other than that, we don't have much lore on him, and at most commentaries re-affirming that he is meant t o be evil. The lore we do have, though, depicts him as rather altruistic, that he struggled for his peers, and that he went to the other races to bargain for peace and harmony, and that he was brutally murdered by them there. He then basically reincarnated as a god to continue that struggle he had begun as a mortal. A struggle that is perfectly legitimate. And after all, not all evil characters need to be mustache twirling puppy-kicking caricatures.

Not all goblinoids see him the same, but the opposite would not make for a very believable story. Just like not all dwarves worship Thor, even if he seems to be their patron. Goblinoids got shafted, some more than others. Bugbears clearly don't seem very concerned by him. I don't recall though, was his species ever mentionned? Because goblins seem to have been screwed over more than the rest. They were the ones that we saw subjected to genocidal paladins, for example. Always living in the poorest settlements. He might very well have a prefference for goblins, after all, they've always had the cloak. Whether it's because he was one himself, or because he sympathizes more for their greater odd of being mere cannon fodder (hobgoblins and bugbears even moreso have a higher CR and better stats and aren't as likely to be thrown in waves as XP fodder). He could very well care for all goblinoids in general, but goblins in particular.

In any case, he's playing high stakes. He wants nothing less than to hold the other gods hostage, to either update the world or start it anew. The creation of a single goblinoid state, in this context, might seem inconsequential. If he has to recreate the world, Gobbotopia will be lost. And it likely only represents but a tiny proportion of goblinoids, just because 0.1% of goblinoids get an okay nation-state doesn't mean he has to stop fighting for the other 99.9%, for example.

I'm honestly a little perplexed by how little we've seen of him, though. Keeps the suspense, I guess, but I would be far more interested in knowing what he's up to than seeing Thrym's romantic endeavors. Hel just feels second rate and two-dimensional compared to the Dark One.

Praise the Dark One!

[Jasdoif]

It feels to me like a lot of what is said about the Dark One is either based upon his agents' actions or second-hand accounts of questionable reliability.

I mean, even Redcloak says he's not in contact with him. Take away the message he got when donning the mantle, and all he's got is "I'm still getting my spells".Yes. Withholding spells is a rather noticeable action the Dark One could take if Redcloak's got his intentions wrong...like if he were to ignore the message imparted by the Crimson Mantle, which includes the location of Lirian's Gate and the method by which the Gate is to be manipulated.


Sure, holding the world hostage does tip on the evil side more than on the good side, but the overall morality of the gods in the OotS universe is pretty sketchy to begin with. If killing every single mortal is considered amoral and that good types would consider it, are we really all that far from this?Holding his own followers for ransom does seem like it might not be in his followers' best interests, yes. Also, I'm not sure "the Dark One is only as horribly amoral as a bunch of other horribly amoral gods!" is really much of a point...particularly since it appears none of the other gods decided threatening everyone with destruction was an idea worth pursuing.


The only overt evidence of the Dark One being evil is Redcloak explicitly stating as much, once I believe. Other than that, we don't have much lore on him, and at most commentaries re-affirming that he is meant t o be evil. The lore we do have, though, depicts him as rather altruistic, that he struggled for his peers, and that he went to the other races to bargain for peace and harmony, and that he was brutally murdered by them there. He then basically reincarnated as a god to continue that struggle he had begun as a mortal. A struggle that is perfectly legitimate. And after all, not all evil characters need to be mustache twirling puppy-kicking caricatures.So, serious question: Do you believe they're false, and there's no basis for believing the lore of Dark One's backstory; do you believe they're true, and there's no basis for doubting the commentaries that he's evil; or do you have some criteria for deciding which parts are believable and which parts are not?


In any case, he's playing high stakes. He wants nothing less than to hold the other gods hostage, to either update the world or start it anew. The creation of a single goblinoid state, in this context, might seem inconsequential. If he has to recreate the world, Gobbotopia will be lost. And it likely only represents but a tiny proportion of goblinoids, just because 0.1% of goblinoids get an okay nation-state doesn't mean he has to stop fighting for the other 99.9%, for example....what is it about treating everything as numbers that makes some people so sociopathic?


I'm honestly a little perplexed by how little we've seen of him, though. Keeps the suspense, I guess, but I would be far more interested in knowing what he's up to than seeing Thrym's romantic endeavors.It does seem quite striking that we haven't seen the Dark One in person the way we're seeing Hel, yeah. Almost as though there's something the audience explicitly hasn't been informed of, pending some sort of dramatic reveal....

[RatElemental]

The only overt evidence of the Dark One being evil is Redcloak explicitly stating as much, once I believe. Other than that, we don't have much lore on him, and at most commentaries re-affirming that he is meant t o be evil. The lore we do have, though, depicts him as rather altruistic, that he struggled for his peers, and that he went to the other races to bargain for peace and harmony, and that he was brutally murdered by them there. He then basically reincarnated as a god to continue that struggle he had begun as a mortal. A struggle that is perfectly legitimate. And after all, not all evil characters need to be mustache twirling puppy-kicking caricatures.

Well Redcloak is lawful evil, so at best the dark one could be lawful neutral, because clerics can only be one step away from their gods in alignment. And you're right, not all evil characters need to be mustache twirling puppy-kickers, but they can still be evil while not doing all that.

[Goblin_Priest]

So, serious question: Do you believe they're false, and there's no basis for believing the lore of Dark One's backstory; do you believe they're true, and there's no basis for doubting the commentaries that he's evil; or do you have some criteria for deciding which parts are believable and which parts are not?

I have no idea, which perplexes me. I don't consider there to be enough data to make an educated guess on most things related to the Dark One.

I would take the commentaries as canon, I guess, but with some nuance: there are characters whose alignments we know don't feel adequate given their behavior (Eugene is LG because... the plot requires it, I'd reckon...), and despite the OotS universe having clear-cut alignment-based afterlives, real people live on a spectrum of morals, so one could be Lawful Evil, but barely away from Lawful Neutral, for example.

So I'm pretty sure Rich said the Dark One was evil, and Redcloak said he was evil, so I'm gonna go with "he's (probably lawful) evil". But being evil doesn't mean he doesn't care about goblinoids as a whole. It could mean he doesn't care how many die to reach a better deal for the survivors, though. You know, the whole "the ends justify the means". Evil saviors make for compelling characters, imo, and it's a large part of Redcloak's appeal.

But we really don't know. If he's evil, he could be lying to the bearer of the Crimson Mantle, and just be out for himself, seeking personal power. It wouldn't seem to fit his deification process, but then again, we really don't know much of how he was back then, and if any of that story is true. He could just be looking to coerce the gods into giving him more power with no regards for his followers, but then, to what end? The gods are powered by their followers, and the Dark One already has many of those; it would seem ridiculous for an OotS god to dismiss his base in such a way. Goblinoids are his deific capital; investing it wisely can pay off big time. Flaunting it all away would just eventually lead him to Hel's situation.

[Nephrahim]

I think just in general I assume everything that was revealed in a crayon drawing is hiding somthing. The stuff the Order got told was clearly partily true, but there's more there then the gods are willing to say, and I assume it's the same for the dark one.

Yes Goblins got a raw deal. Yes, the way the Sapphire Guard handled Redcloak's village in SoD was super messed up, I don't understand why goblin children would be considered "Evil" but I'm not sure The Dark One's plan is going to fix any of that. Considering the Stinger we left Azure city (Or Goblintopia, whatever) I'm not even sure what it's going to look like the next time we see it. I wouldn't be surprised at all if the Hobgoblins are busy warring with every other humanoid races in the region.

But back to the topic at hand, at least the Dark One CLAIMS to have his followers best interests at heart. He seems to be a god working for his worship, unlike Hel, who seems upset at some unspecified deal in the past but also has no interest in doing anything WORTH worshiping.

[Jasdoif]

But we really don't know. If he's evil, he could be lying to the bearer of the Crimson Mantle, and just be out for himself, seeking personal power. It wouldn't seem to fit his deification process, but then again, we really don't know much of how he was back then, and if any of that story is true. He could just be looking to coerce the gods into giving him more power with no regards for his followers, but then, to what end? The gods are powered by their followers, and the Dark One already has many of those; it would seem ridiculous for an OotS god to dismiss his base in such a way. Goblinoids are his deific capital; investing it wisely can pay off big time. Flaunting it all away would just eventually lead him to Hel's situation.Well, in the hypothetical....If the Dark One's goal was to destroy the other gods for what they and their followers did to him, without regard to anyone else (including himself), the Plan does most of the work right there. Just skip the "Give me what I want or else" bit, and let loose the Snarl. The outlandish theory that the Dark One doesn't actually exist, and is the fictional creation of aspect of some other divine energy/being, has the distinct problem that Jirix has some contact with the Dark One; if all the direct information/interactions pertaining to the Dark One came from Redcloak, a "The Crimson Mantle lied to him all along!" twist would be an easier sell.


But back to the topic at hand, at least the Dark One CLAIMS to have his followers best interests at heart. He seems to be a god working for his worship, unlike Hel, who seems upset at some unspecified deal in the past but also has no interest in doing anything WORTH worshiping.Hel certainly appears to be the honest one of the two, yes.

[martianmister]

Dark One is the avatar of Snarl is a fan theory of mine. Just saying.

[woweedd]

Dark One is the avatar of Snarl is a fan theory of mine. Just saying.
Um...May I ask for some specifics?

[martianmister]

Um...May I ask for some specifics?

Related threads, two by me, two by other people:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?192524-The-Dark-One-s-true-intentions
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?203361-Dark-One-s-true-(SoD-spoilers)
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?249876-The-Dark-One-s-suspicious-rise-to-power-(SoD-spoilers)
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?331714-The-Snarl-and-the-Dark-One

[Keltest]

Dark One is the avatar of Snarl is a fan theory of mine. Just saying.

Given that the Dark One is capable of creating artifacts and bestowing spells upon his cleircs, I think we can safely say that he is his own entity, and not simply an outlet for the power that the Snarl shouldn't have been able to release.

[martianmister]

Given that the Dark One is capable of creating artifacts and bestowing spells upon his cleircs, I think we can safely say that he is his own entity, and not simply an outlet for the power that the Snarl shouldn't have been able to release.

Based on what?

[Keltest]

Based on what?

The world is acting as the snarl's prison. Any time before the rifts showed up, and any time between when the gates were made and when Elan broke the first one, the Snarl should have had no way of manifesting any sort of power or avatar. The timeline isn't right for the Dark One's birth to have been affected by the Snarl either, since the rifts only started appearing after he rose to godhood. Furthermore, such complex planning and maneuvering is inconsistent with the snarl's characterization as a being of rage and chaos.

Now, I can totally see the Dark One as being omnicidally insane and wanting to actually release the Snarl out of revenge for whatever, but that would be under his own initiative, not the Snarl's.

[Ruck]

The Plan, itself, does not appear inherently evil to me. Immoral, sure, but outright evil?
"Immoral vs. evil" seems like a distinction without a difference.


Is there no good person that believes that Weapons of Mass Destruction can be a tool for good? That the nukes used on Japan saved a lot of lives that would have been lost by pursuing the conflict further, for example?
Seems like it would tread into forbidden real-world discussion to answer this.


...what is it about treating everything as numbers that makes some people so sociopathic?

Numbers are abstractions. It's easy to forget about the human costs of decisions when you make them abstract.


It does seem quite striking that we haven't seen the Dark One in person the way we're seeing Hel, yeah. Almost as though there's something the audience explicitly hasn't been informed of, pending some sort of dramatic reveal....

Well, Jirix saw him, right? (As per #704 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0704.html).) While that's still a second-hand retelling, I don't think we have reason to suspect it's being fudged. (Although his appearance is very limited and doesn't give us much information.)

[JennTora]

Has it been considered the dark one may be evil and still have his followers best interests at heart? For instance, Perhaps he has a love for the goblin people but feels that other races have their own gods that maybe favor them more than they should. Couldn't it be that he cares deeply about his own people but wouldn't spit on a human if they were on fire? And maybe would set a human on fire in the first place if it wouldn't piss off the other gods.

[Kish]

That doesn't really strike me as related to the "Dark One's alignment" debate. The people who argue for him being meaningfully evil invariably (including in this thread, and in Start of Darkness where a character who happens to be a goblin and the hero of the book calls him a petty, selfish god) point to his brutal callousness toward goblins, his ongoing insistence on a Plan which treats goblins as cannon fodder, his support of the actions of a One True Prophet who murdered his baby brother to protect a monster who kills and tortures goblins casually, by the shipload, and laughs at their deaths.

[JennTora]

That doesn't really strike me as related to the "Dark One's alignment" debate. The people who argue for him being meaningfully evil invariably (including in this thread, and in Start of Darkness where a character who happens to be a goblin and the hero of the book calls him a petty, selfish god) point to his brutal callousness toward goblins, his ongoing insistence on a Plan which treats goblins as cannon fodder, his support of the actions of a One True Prophet who murdered his baby brother to protect a monster who kills and tortures goblins casually, by the shipload, and laughs at their deaths.

Whom redcloak at the time had no ability to kill, and likely would have gotten killed and ruined the plan had he helped right eye instead, ruining any chance of goblins getting a fair deal.

Okay so right eye had gotten a family together and lived in a gobliny community. He talked about how it wasn't a contest with humans and that sounds awesome. There's a problem though. If xykon hadn't done attacked the village, some ******* adventures would've, and that continues until the dark one's plan succeeds and goblins get a fair deal. That's pretty much why "the plan must succeed." It's really the only way the goblins are getting any lasting happiness without a high likelihood of adventurers killing them for xp. Or do you think the idiots that roy and durkon were originally with in otoopcs wouldn't go slaughter them for such?

If the dark one's plan is the only way goblins are getting a fair deal, then i can see why he continues to push said plan.

[Kish]

Indeed, if you assume the Dark One is both honest and correct in everything he says or is quoted as saying, it makes perfect sense to reject out of hand any suggestion that he is either incorrect or deceptive. Yet that somehow doesn't strike me as a good place to stand.

I trust you saw the answer to your original proposed resolution to all "Dark One's alignment" threads.

[JennTora]

Indeed, if you assume the Dark One is both honest and correct in everything he says or is quoted as saying, it makes perfect sense to reject out of hand any suggestion that he is either incorrect or deceptive.

Did i say that because I don't remember saying that? I read your spoilery stuff, maybe you didn't read mine?

I'm just throwing the possibility out because I enjoy it. At the same time, there may be another workable plan for goblin equality that the dark one doesn't see, but as long as it's considered cool to believe that the only good goblins are dead goblins, I'm not seeing it, either.

As for deceptive, has that box been opened yet?

[Kish]

If the dark one's plan is the only way goblins are getting a fair deal,
If you take issue with paraphrasing that as "the Dark One is both honest and correct in everything he says or is quoted as saying," you should explain where you find that factually inaccurate.

[JennTora]

If you take issue with paraphrasing that as "the Dark One is both honest and correct in everything he says or is quoted as saying," you should explain where you find that factually inaccurate.

So, on his correctness, do you see another way for them to gain equality?

On his honesty, do we have evidence as to whether he's honest or dishonest? I don't think we do, so it makes as much sense to assume honesty as dishonesty.

[Kish]

Ah, so you do agree that the paraphrase you denied was actually accurate to begin with.

Beyond that, I thought I was pretty clear that I didn't want to engage with where you wanted to take the conversation, but, explicitly: I don't want to engage with where you want to take the conversation. I think you're rejecting Start of Darkness thematically and outright ignoring text from it (Redcloak's "What have I done?" being the biggest example of the latter), and I have no interest in standing in "what can you argue if you start from the premise that Start of Darkness is not a tragic tale of an idealistic young goblin being corrupted into Redcloak?" As I said to begin with, this isn't actually related to the "Dark One's alignment" debate; it assumes your conclusion as part of your premise.

[JennTora]

Ah, so you do agree that the paraphrase you denied was actually accurate to begin with.

Beyond that, I thought I was pretty clear that I didn't want to engage with where you wanted to take the conversation, but, explicitly: I don't want to engage with where you want to take the conversation. I think you're rejecting Start of Darkness thematically and outright ignoring text from it (Redcloak's "What have I done?" being the biggest example of the latter), and I have no interest in standing in "what can you argue if you start from the premise that Start of Darkness is not a tragic tale of an idealistic young goblin being corrupted into Redcloak?" As I said to begin with, this isn't actually related to the "Dark One's alignment" debate; it assumes your conclusion as part of your premise.

Okay, totally confused now.

[Lacuna Caster]

That doesn't really strike me as related to the "Dark One's alignment" debate. The people who argue for him being meaningfully evil invariably (including in this thread, and in Start of Darkness where a character who happens to be a goblin and the hero of the book calls him a petty, selfish god) point to his brutal callousness toward goblins, his ongoing insistence on a Plan which treats goblins as cannon fodder, his support of the actions of a One True Prophet who murdered his baby brother to protect a monster who kills and tortures goblins casually, by the shipload, and laughs at their deaths.
While one can sympathise with Right-Eye, it's difficult to evaluate the full extent to which Dark One approves of Xykon in particular and Redcloak's interpretation of the plan in general, given that he apparently doesn't communicate with RC very regularly. The most you can say is that he doesn't go out of his way to strenuously object, strip RC of his powers, etc. (This is further complicated by the generally baffling behaviour of the Gods in OOTS, who appear to have highly obscure restrictions on when and why to communicate with mortals.)

EDIT: It's fair to say that Redcloak has had plenty of options to quit while he's ahead, but that's been discussed before (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?521304-I-Finally-Read-Start-Of-Darkness-*contains-SoD-spoilers*&p=21974027&viewfull=1#post21974027).

[Goblin_Priest]

Okay, totally confused now.

You aren't the only one.


While one can sympathise with Right-Eye, it's difficult to evaluate the full extent to which Dark One approves of Xykon in particular and Redcloak's interpretation of the plan in general, given that he apparently doesn't communicate with RC very regularly. The most you can say is that he doesn't go out of his way to strenuously object, strip RC of his powers, etc. (This is further complicated by the generally baffling behaviour of the Gods in OOTS, who appear to have highly obscure restrictions on when and why to communicate with mortals.)

EDIT: It's fair to say that Redcloak has had plenty of options to quit while he's ahead, but that's been discussed before (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?521304-I-Finally-Read-Start-Of-Darkness-*contains-SoD-spoilers*&p=21974027&viewfull=1#post21974027).

I have a hard time giving any credence to Right-Eye's words about the Dark One. Anyone in his position would have uttered the same blasphemy, whether it was true or not. He personally lost a lot due to the Plan, it's normal for him to resent it, even if he did know that goblinoids as a whole could gain from it.

As for Xykon, well, Redcloak aspired for a goblin arcane caster. But none are high level enough. He had to settle for Xykon. Whatever his motives, the Dark One seems invested in the Plan. Accepting the loss of a few goblinoids to Xykon in order to see the Plan completed seems perfectly in line with what one could expect from an evil deity.

The same logic applies to Redcloak. I'm going to guess that he doesn't really have many other, if any other, high level clerics of comparable power. In this regards, he's in a similar situation as Hel. A god that only has one high level cleric would not ditch him over the slightest grievance.

[Keltest]

You aren't the only one.



I have a hard time giving any credence to Right-Eye's words about the Dark One. Anyone in his position would have uttered the same blasphemy, whether it was true or not. He personally lost a lot due to the Plan, it's normal for him to resent it, even if he did know that goblinoids as a whole could gain from it.

As for Xykon, well, Redcloak aspired for a goblin arcane caster. But none are high level enough. He had to settle for Xykon. Whatever his motives, the Dark One seems invested in the Plan. Accepting the loss of a few goblinoids to Xykon in order to see the Plan completed seems perfectly in line with what one could expect from an evil deity.

The same logic applies to Redcloak. I'm going to guess that he doesn't really have many other, if any other, high level clerics of comparable power. In this regards, he's in a similar situation as Hel. A god that only has one high level cleric would not ditch him over the slightest grievance.

Given that redcloak took up the Crimson Mantle on the day he was ordained as a cleric, the level of the divine caster does not seem to be the most relevant detail.

Having said that, I think Right-eye is in a much better position to see the truth of the Dark One than Redcloak is. For that matter, given the amount that the Mantle has implanted in Redcloak's mind, I'm rather skeptical that he can even be completely trusted to be acting under his own will at this point. I wouldn't put it past the Dark One to make his super artifact subtly manipulate its wearer into trying to achieve the Plan. Plus, artifacts that usurp your mind are a D&D classic.

[B. Dandelion]

For that matter, given the amount that the Mantle has implanted in Redcloak's mind, I'm rather skeptical that he can even be completely trusted to be acting under his own will at this point. I wouldn't put it past the Dark One to make his super artifact subtly manipulate its wearer into trying to achieve the Plan. Plus, artifacts that usurp your mind are a D&D classic.

It is a tad on the suspicious side that when he first put it on he was shambling around with glowing eyes, talking in colored speech bubbles and endlessly repeating "the Plan must continue" until Right-Eye's screaming knocked him out of his trance.

Heck, even the whole "ceased to age" thing may have worked to keep him in a more impressionable state. A teenager is easier to manipulate than a fully grown adult.

[JennTora]

You aren't the only one.

Oh, good. I was feeling really dumb because either kish didn't quite understand me, I didn't quite understand kish, or I just upset kish in some way I don't really get.


Dark One is basically God version of Redcloak. I can't see him anything independent of Redcloak.


It would actually be interesting if the dark one had the exact same sunk cost obsession as redcloak. "I've already sacrificed so many of my goblin followers' lives. It will only take a few more. And then we can finally get a fair deal. It'll all be worth it, but the plan must continue! The plan must succeed!"


It is a tad on the suspicious side that when he first put it on he was shambling around with glowing eyes, talking in colored speech bubbles and endlessly repeating "the Plan must continue" until Right-Eye's screaming knocked him out of his trance.

That is true. Though it would kind of be annoying if the cloak got pulled off him and it turned out that Redcloak was never actually the character he seemed to be and was just basically mind controlled by the dark one the whole time. It does fit with the above possibility though.

And i could be wrong. The giant might find a way to make "oh see, that was never me, it was the cloak." Seem cool.

[B. Dandelion]

That is true. Though it would kind of be annoying if the cloak got pulled off him and it turned out that Redcloak was never actually the character he seemed to be and was just basically mind controlled by the dark one the whole time. It does fit with the above possibility though.

And i could be wrong. The giant might find a way to make "oh see, that was never me, it was the cloak." Seem cool.

We've seen him without the cloak at least once (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0149.html), so it would be unlikely to be anything as blatant as "it wasn't me, it was the cloak all along" -- which, yeah, would be a letdown. There's not a lot of point to building up a character's descent into darkness, making it clear that a lot of that descent was based on his own character failings, only to later reveal that actually it was entirely the work of some external force all along. But I think there's room in there for a more subtle effect. Some of his actions or attitudes being possibly influenced by literal deific brainwashing doesn't mean they all were or that he gets let off the hook entirely.

[Mordaedil]

I reckon the Dark One doesn't care much about the lives lost right now, because if his negotiations with the other gods is successful, they will remake the world into one where the goblin races are more or less given equal opportunity to the humanoid races and not simply hunted for delicious xp.

We might see an entire pantheon form for the Dark One and include things like Paladins and other not-pure evil stuff and make them actually as complex as elves, humans, dwarves and halflings are.

In this aspect, assuming that is the real goal, I hope he succeeds. And if he ends up not negotiating for that at all, I hope Redcloak rebels and unleashes Xykon on him.

That'd be pretty satisfactory actually.

[JennTora]

I reckon the Dark One doesn't care much about the lives lost right now, because if his negotiations with the other gods is successful, they will remake the world into one where the goblin races are more or less given equal opportunity to the humanoid races and not simply hunted for delicious xp.

We might see an entire pantheon form for the Dark One and include things like Paladins and other not-pure evil stuff and make them actually as complex as elves, humans, dwarves and halflings are.

In this aspect, assuming that is the real goal, I hope he succeeds. And if he ends up not negotiating for that at all, I hope Redcloak rebels and unleashes Xykon on him.

That'd be pretty satisfactory actually.

Eh. Xykon's what? Level 25ish? While strong, I'm not sure he can fight a god. If they're statted like in deities and demigods then they're all level 40 with a bunch of God powers that let them do crazy broken bullcrap.

And that's if they're even statted. Oots might be one of those worlds where it's like "oh you're meteor swarming a god? Said god smacks your meteor swarm back at you then teleports you to the heart of the sun.

[hamishspence]

Eh. Xykon's what? Level 25ish? While strong, I'm not sure he can fight a god.

Deities & Demigods gods are typically very unoptimised - none has more than 20 levels in a spellcasting class (though some have multiple spellcasting classes) and none has the Epic Spellcasting feat, which Xykon has.

Possibly because Epic Handbook hadn't come out at that point.

I could see gods statted like the weakest gods in that book (Imhotep, for example) not being too overwhelming for Xykon.

A well optimised god, however, is likely to crush him.

[Kish]

I don't think OotS is going to feature fisticuffs between a mortal and a god.

[ti'esar]

I doubt very much Xykon himself is really a "hit him until he dies" sort of opponent, let alone the actual gods. Though I do have to say, I have never stopped wondering what Shojo's one comment about the gods "possibly being more vulnerable to the Snarl than mortals of similar levels" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0274.html) was really about.

[goto124]

It suggests that there are mortals of similar levels to gods...

[hroþila]

It suggests that there are mortals of similar levels to gods...
It doesn't. It suggests exactly what it says: a mortal of an equivalent level might have been less vulnerable to the Snarl. That gives some leeway for some kind of brief confrontation with the Snarl being survivable for high-level mortal characters, just like what happened with Soon and Kraagor, without their being as high-level as a god.

[Mordaedil]

Eh. Xykon's what? Level 25ish? While strong, I'm not sure he can fight a god. If they're statted like in deities and demigods then they're all level 40 with a bunch of God powers that let them do crazy broken bullcrap.

And that's if they're even statted. Oots might be one of those worlds where it's like "oh you're meteor swarming a god? Said god smacks your meteor swarm back at you then teleports you to the heart of the sun.

:smallsigh: My post was a joke.

[Edric O]

To me, the real mystery about The Dark One right now is why he's so... quiet. The other gods are seriously thinking of destroying the world, which would completely nullify all the work he has put into The Plan. This is a far bigger and more immediate threat to The Plan than the Order or anyone else ever was.

So The Dark One should be Hel's biggest enemy right now. But he's nowhere to be seen. Why? Is he simply not aware of what's going on? I find that hard to believe. All the other gods know what's going on. Even if The Dark One doesn't know about Hel specifically, he should at least be aware that the gods are voting about whether to destroy the world. And he should be at least trying to monitor the situation, if not directly trying to influence the votes. So, again: Where is he??

[Lacuna Caster]

To me, the real mystery about The Dark One right now is why he's so... quiet. The other gods are seriously thinking of destroying the world, which would completely nullify all the work he has put into The Plan. This is a far bigger and more immediate threat to The Plan than the Order or anyone else ever was.
The impression I got from RC was that destroying the world was a strong 'Plan B' in the event that using the Snarl for blackmail purposes doesn't work out- he'd at least have a seat at the table when designing the next world- so Dark One might not be getting huffy just yet.

[hroþila]

To me, the real mystery about The Dark One right now is why he's so... quiet. The other gods are seriously thinking of destroying the world, which would completely nullify all the work he has put into The Plan. This is a far bigger and more immediate threat to The Plan than the Order or anyone else ever was.

So The Dark One should be Hel's biggest enemy right now. But he's nowhere to be seen. Why? Is he simply not aware of what's going on? I find that hard to believe. All the other gods know what's going on. Even if The Dark One doesn't know about Hel specifically, he should at least be aware that the gods are voting about whether to destroy the world. And he should be at least trying to monitor the situation, if not directly trying to influence the votes. So, again: Where is he??
The Dark One has already accounted for the possibility of the other gods destroying the world before he can use the Snarl, and he considers it an acceptable outcome and a net win. He might be monitoring the situation (assuming he knows about it), but there's not much he can do anyway - he's relatively isolated among the gods, with few allies, and he runs a significant risk of losing the ones he has if he draws attention to the fact that this is all his fault.

[TidePriestess]

To me, the real mystery about The Dark One right now is why he's so... quiet. The other gods are seriously thinking of destroying the world, which would completely nullify all the work he has put into The Plan. This is a far bigger and more immediate threat to The Plan than the Order or anyone else ever was.

So The Dark One should be Hel's biggest enemy right now. But he's nowhere to be seen. Why? Is he simply not aware of what's going on? I find that hard to believe. All the other gods know what's going on. Even if The Dark One doesn't know about Hel specifically, he should at least be aware that the gods are voting about whether to destroy the world. And he should be at least trying to monitor the situation, if not directly trying to influence the votes. So, again: Where is he??
My guess is that the Dark One didn't send Redcloak to the Godsmoot because he thought that working on Kraagor's Tomb was more important, and wasn't aware of Hel's plan. And now that that's out of the bag... well, I'm actually not quite sure.

It's also a shame that Redcloak didn't show up there, because I'm sure that would have led to some great dialogue.

[B. Dandelion]

It's never been indicated that the Dark One would get a vote at the Godsmoot. He's not a member of the Northern pantheon. He isn't a member of any of the three recognized pantheons. He's his own pantheon of one. If they let him vote, would they have to reduce the voting share of the established pantheons from 1/3rd to 1/4th, granting the Dark One a 1/4th share all to himself? Or would they claim that Redcloak wasn't a sanctioned representative of any real pantheon and thus not subject to the protections afforded the other clerics? If I were the Dark One, I wouldn't want to try picking that fight even if Redcloak brought Xykon along as his bodyguard.

[TidePriestess]

It's never been indicated that the Dark One would get a vote at the Godsmoot. He's not a member of the Northern pantheon. He isn't a member of any of the three recognized pantheons. He's his own pantheon of one. If they let him vote, would they have to reduce the voting share of the established pantheons from 1/3rd to 1/4th, granting the Dark One a 1/4th share all to himself? Or would they claim that Redcloak wasn't a sanctioned representative of any real pantheon and thus not subject to the protections afforded the other clerics? If I were the Dark One, I wouldn't want to try picking that fight even if Redcloak brought Xykon along as his bodyguard.
Well, I admit that the pantheon-based voting system makes everything harder; if each god could just vote individually regardless of pantheon, it'd help a lot. It might shaft the southern pantheon, but the current system also makes their votes count more than those of any other god...

[Keltest]

Well, I admit that the pantheon-based voting system makes everything harder; if each god could just vote individually regardless of pantheon, it'd help a lot. It might shaft the southern pantheon, but the current system also makes their votes count more than those of any other god...

the elves piggybacked on to the Western pantheon for voting. If the Dark One cared that much, he could probably poke the North or South into letting him vote with them.

[B. Dandelion]

The bottom line is they can't give him a vote without decreasing their own share of power in one way or another. Which the gods will not want to do. Killing Redcloak if he tries to show up would be a much more efficient way of handling the situation from their perspective. From the Dark One's perspective, meanwhile, there's little if anything to be gained by the attempt. Either way the vote goes works out to his advantage -- if they say no, that gives Redcloak and Xykon more time to try and seize a Gate, and if they vote yes, he gets a seat at the table when building the next world.

Not to mention that he's been burned before on the whole "send your most powerful piece in to negotiate and trust that the customs of honor will protect you" routine.


the elves piggybacked on to the Western pantheon for voting. If the Dark One cared that much, he could probably poke the North or South into letting him vote with them.

I express doubt that "the Dark One didn't care enough" was truly the most relevant aspect in play.

[Keltest]

I express doubt that "the Dark One didn't care enough" was truly the most relevant aspect in play.
Since the gods haven't all come down and smited the Dark One into a corner for being bad and sticking forks into electrical sockets, I think they probably don't know he is directly involved. Barring that, I'm struggling to think of anything he has done that would result in him outright being denied voting rights with one of the pantheons were he to push hard enough for it.

[TidePriestess]

Since the gods haven't all come down and smited the Dark One into a corner for being bad and sticking forks into electrical sockets, I think they probably don't know he is directly involved. Barring that, I'm struggling to think of anything he has done that would result in him outright being denied voting rights with one of the pantheons were he to push hard enough for it.
Isn't gods fighting each other the thing that created the Snarl in the first place? I think that incident might be enough to warn them off of true divine warfare forever.

[B. Dandelion]

Since the gods haven't all come down and smited the Dark One into a corner for being bad and sticking forks into electrical sockets, I think they probably don't know he is directly involved.

They can't do anything about the Dark One directly now. They had their shot to kill him and passed up on it.


I make no comment on the substance of the arguments here, but I just wanted to chime in and say that it was my intent to imply that in the crayon pages of Start of Darkness, the other gods were capable of unilaterally killing The Dark One only because he was newly ascended.

He had used up all of his "worshipper juice" becoming a god, leaving him somewhat weak and with no experience using divine powers. After some of the other gods broke ranks to defend him, he took control of the goblinoids and established regular worship among them. So he's been building his power for a few centuries since then, and unlike other gods, he doesn't have to share his species' worship with several competing deities.

Basically, that was their only shot to just gang up and kill him out of hand.


Barring that, I'm struggling to think of anything he has done that would result in him outright being denied voting rights with one of the pantheons were he to push hard enough for it.

How often do gods willingly give up power because of being asked nicely? The elves and goblins also had a somewhat different deal going on with the gods.


The elves worship their own gods in addition to certain Western Gods (since their homeland is in the west), not in place of. The elven gods are more like elf-specific associates rather than a replacement pantheon.

The goblins, on the other hand, worshipped no one before the Dark One.

[Jasdoif]

How often do gods willingly give up power because of being asked nicely?Being asked nicely by someone they'd seriously considered killing, no less.

[Kish]

It suggests that there are mortals of similar levels to gods...
Does it? Considering it was theorizing, I'd say it suggests the exact opposite if it suggests anything at all.

[Keltest]

Isn't gods fighting each other the thing that created the Snarl in the first place? I think that incident might be enough to warn them off of true divine warfare forever.

Indeed it was, but there needs to be at least some threat of punishment, or you cant actually enforce any of the agreements theyre bound to. As Hel pointed out, she is working very carefully within the loopholes of the divine laws to make sure that the rest of the gods don't just come down hard on her. Threatening other gods with the Snarl probably isn't a contingency they felt they had to specifically outlaw, but I can pretty much guarantee you that none of them have any patience for that nonsense.

[Mic_128]

To me, the real mystery about The Dark One right now is why he's so... quiet. The other gods are seriously thinking of destroying the world, which would completely nullify all the work he has put into The Plan. This is a far bigger and more immediate threat to The Plan than the Order or anyone else ever was.

You're assuming he even knows. The Dark One was kept in the dark for ages about the Snarl. They aren't exactly going to advertise the Godsmoot in his ear.

[Goblin_Priest]

Given that redcloak took up the Crimson Mantle on the day he was ordained as a cleric, the level of the divine caster does not seem to be the most relevant detail.

Having said that, I think Right-eye is in a much better position to see the truth of the Dark One than Redcloak is. For that matter, given the amount that the Mantle has implanted in Redcloak's mind, I'm rather skeptical that he can even be completely trusted to be acting under his own will at this point. I wouldn't put it past the Dark One to make his super artifact subtly manipulate its wearer into trying to achieve the Plan. Plus, artifacts that usurp your mind are a D&D classic.

He wasn't a very high level cleric at that point, but he hadn't gotten a lot of them killed, or met Xykon yet, either.

And that just furthers my point, if such a low level cleric got to be high priest (actually that might not have come automatically with the cloak?), every current alternative to Redcloak is probably way down there in turns of levels. Why would the Dark One switch his high level cleric for a first level scrub?


You're assuming he even knows. The Dark One was kept in the dark for ages about the Snarl. They aren't exactly going to advertise the Godsmoot in his ear.

And they might still believe him to be clueless about the Snarl.

[Goblin_Priest]

Deities & Demigods gods are typically very unoptimised - none has more than 20 levels in a spellcasting class (though some have multiple spellcasting classes) and none has the Epic Spellcasting feat, which Xykon has.

Possibly because Epic Handbook hadn't come out at that point.

I could see gods statted like the weakest gods in that book (Imhotep, for example) not being too overwhelming for Xykon.

A well optimised god, however, is likely to crush him.

From what I recall, the gods had some special perks that put them well above mere mortals. Stuff like all rolls were 20s and such, no?

[PontificatusRex]

Coming out of long-time Lurker mode to suggest that The Dark One may still yet intervene. One, because Hel's manipulations might throw off his calculations regarding the goblins doing better in the next world and Two, because the establishment of Gobbotopia could make the current world much more worth fighting for. I expect he would join the Northern Pantheon like the Elvish gods joined the Western gods for voting purposes - because it seems most goblinoids are still around the North, the Southern Gods are too much of a coherent group to make room for an outsider, and narratively it makes by far the most sense.

I also really like the idea of Redcloak teleporting in with Xykon and the MitD as his bodyguards.


On another note, I think the Dark One's motives are better than the general consensus seems to give him credit for. It's important to remember that the goblins were created to be sword fodder for low-level adventurers and any change in status is going to be an improvement on that. You can doubt whether that story is wholly true but I think it's important to remember that that's exactly what goblin are in the actual game of Dungeons and Dragons, and the gods bear a very strong resemblance to game designers. I expect that goblins established peaceful settlements many many times and were wiped out by humans or other enemies - it's only exceptionally moral humans like Roy and O-Chul who would consider them anything other than a threat to be exterminated without much thought. Redcloak tells us in SoD that the Dark One's advice to his followers was just to "avoid all dealings" with humans and I doubt there was any reason for that to not be true.

[hamishspence]

From what I recall, the gods had some special perks that put them well above mere mortals. Stuff like all rolls were 20s and such, no?

For high level gods (intermediate, greater), they get these perks.

Low level ones don't though.

Still, even a rank 1 god gets teleport without error at will - so if the god is overwhelmed, they can flee. And many immunities. And Spell Resistance.

Xykon vs "Imhotep-equivalent" might be a good example of a fight Xykon could win - Xykon vs many other Deities & Demigods deities = Xykon getting killed or controlled rapidly.

Hel, for example, could kill or Command him in moments, with her Undead Mastery ability.

[MReav]

For high level gods (intermediate, greater), they get these perks.

Low level ones don't though.

Still, even a rank 1 god gets teleport without error at will - so if the god is overwhelmed, they can flee. And many immunities. And Spell Resistance.

Xykon vs "Imhotep-equivalent" might be a good example of a fight Xykon could win - Xykon vs many other Deities & Demigods deities = Xykon getting killed or controlled rapidly.

Hel, for example, could kill or Command him in moments, with her Undead Mastery ability.

And I'm pretty sure he's a northerner, so he won't have any deities who could intervene on his behalf.

[AceOfFools]

One fact that complicates the morality of the Dark One as it relates to the Plan and sunk costs: he gets stronger the more martyrs he has. Every goblin that dies in service to the plan makes him more able to fight back if the other gods decide to gang up on him to deny his wishes by force.

Think about how many goblins die compared to the death rate of other, longer-lived races. He may already hope to be in the position Hel hopes to be in by voting to destroy the world.

Further, since his followers get to leave the generally unpleasant lives for an afterlife to hang with him when they die, the Dark One could view the death of his followers as less unforgivable as mortals view the killing of other morals.

I don't think these things make him less evil. On the contrary. He's literally profiting from the suffering and deaths of millions of those that care about him; like a hunter who kills her dog to make a sweet cloak. I do think that these facts would have a huge influence on how he evaluates the performance of Redcloak and the cost of the Plan.

With respect to this thread: Hel vs the Dark One. She is a foil for him. She highlights his nobler aspects by pursuing the same goals for less noble reasons. Her weakness foreshadows his greater strength by pursuing a plan that would strengthen her by getting what he already has.

She is a midboss, allowing the Giant to show both us and his cast what the OotS have to go through to fight a diety without jumping straight to the final confrontation. This gives the cast a chance to grow and learn so they have more to being into the confrontation that had been building since No Cure for the Paladin Blues, if not earlier.

[JennTora]

Further, since his followers get to leave the generally unpleasant lives for an afterlife to hang with him when they die, the Dark One could view the death of his followers as less unforgivable as mortals view the killing of other morals.

Well sort of. From what jirix said it's more like goblin valhalla. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0704.html) Pretty cool, really.


For high level gods (intermediate, greater), they get these perks.

Low level ones don't though.


If you're talking about salient abilities, They get one per divine rank, plus one more for being a demigod, 2 more for being a lesser deity, 3 more for being an intermediate deity, and 5 more for being a greater deity.

They're all strong, but which two a hypothetical divine rank 1 demigod has selected could mean the difference between "xykon obviously loses" and "xykon has some chance of killing the demigod and taking his power if ootsverse allows for becoming a god by killing one like some settings do."

Also gods are immune to energy drain, one of xykon's favorite spells, and they're immune to his paralyzing touch.


And I'm pretty sure he's a northerner, so he won't have any deities who could intervene on his behalf.

If any of them even would. He doesn't strike me as very pious. Plus he's kind of a ****, it's even word of Giant. There's also the whole "he's trying to control the god killing abomination" thing.

[hamishspence]

If you're talking about salient abilities, They get one per divine rank, plus one more for being a demigod, 2 more for being a lesser deity, 3 more for being an intermediate deity, and 5 more for being a greater deity.


I'm talking about the things that lesser deities get that demigods don't, that intermediate deities get that lesser deities don't, and that greater deities get that all other deities don't. Not salient divine abilities - but tier-defining ones, like "all rolls count as 20s" or "can predict things related to their portfolio weeks before they happen."

These can make "rank 15 intermediate god vs rank 16 greater god" a kerbstomp. Not sure if the power gap is as significant between demigods and lesser gods though.

It is true that gods are heavily resistant to most of Xykon's spells. He might have to fall back on Maximised Magic Missiles and hope they get through the spell resistance of the deities.

[goodpeople25]

The specific abilities (there is still increases to abilities and stuff for their godly realms) I see that come online at lesser are:
Always able to take 10 on a skill check.
Immunity to a spattering of spells that would imprison or banish them.
At will plane shift.

For Xykon I don't believe he is known to have any of the given spells beside soul bind (which is kinda putting the hellcart before the demon horse as Cedrick's dad always says) not sure he'd go for the save or be trapped spells like binding and imprisonment anyway, but dimensional anchor might be crucial to finish the job because of the at will greater teleports. So a lesser diety gets immunity to that plus more options from plane shift.

Also is 5 plus divine rank fire resistance really heavily resistant for the lower ranks and Xykon's level?

[JennTora]

The specific abilities (there is still increases to abilities and stuff for their godly realms) I see that come online at lesser are:
Always able to take 10 on a skill check.
Immunity to a spattering of spells that would imprison or banish them.
At will plane shift.

For Xykon I don't believe he is known to have any of the given spells beside soul bind (which is kinda putting the hellcart before the demon horse as Cedrick's dad always says) not sure he'd go for the save or be trapped spells like binding and imprisonment anyway, but dimensional anchor might be crucial to finish the job because of the at will greater teleports. So a lesser diety gets immunity to that plus more options from plane shift.

Also is 5 plus divine rank fire resistance really heavily resistant for the lower ranks and Xykon's level?

I think you missed the part about all gods of all ranks being immune to energy drain and paralysis. As in, they don't get negative levels. And no, fire resistance 6 for a divine rank 1 really wouldn't be that troublesome for xykon. But spell resistance 33 would give the god a fair chance to resist spells. Or maybe not, xykon probably took spell penetration at some point.

[goodpeople25]

I think you missed the part about all gods of all ranks being immune to energy drain and paralysis. As in, they don't get negative levels. And no, fire resistance 6 for a divine rank 1 really wouldn't be that troublesome for xykon. But spell resistance 33 would give the god a fair chance to resist spells. Or maybe not, xykon probably took spell penetration at some point.
I was just addressing specifics (mostly) of the previous post not doing a wide reaching analysis. And I just read up on d&d stuff for fun so practical stuff like knowing how significant spell resistance or other increasing abilities of deities actually are isn't something I'm at all good or even decent at or comfortable with commenting on.

[Alcore]

To me, the real mystery about The Dark One right now is why he's so... quiet. The other gods are seriously thinking of destroying the world, which would completely nullify all the work he has put into The Plan. This is a far bigger and more immediate threat to The Plan than the Order or anyone else ever was.

So The Dark One should be Hel's biggest enemy right now. But he's nowhere to be seen. Why? Is he simply not aware of what's going on? I find that hard to believe. All the other gods know what's going on. Even if The Dark One doesn't know about Hel specifically, he should at least be aware that the gods are voting about whether to destroy the world. And he should be at least trying to monitor the situation, if not directly trying to influence the votes. So, again: Where is he?? he is alone, technically, getting only what he can see and what tenuious allies give him. He is not part of the three and likely has no vote.


Though....


Why do anything? The gods must make some concessions to him; if they work against each othe a new snarl will be born. A new world means a smallish continent with goblinoid being the primary race. Remote in starting location to dig in and grow like the other primary races.

This might be a harried plan X for him but i see a win for him and goblinoids in general.

[Jasdoif]

On another note, I think the Dark One's motives are better than the general consensus seems to give him credit for.Really? I kinda thought his purported motives were generally accepted; the disagreement comes from his methods' actively undercutting those motives.