Does a cleric still have opposed alignment spells on their spell list?

[valepu]

Even though it's clear that a cleric can't cast spells with an alignment descriptor opposed to his deity's (so a chaotic good cleric can't cast evil spells nor lawful spells) it's not stated anywhere wheter these spells are still in their spell list even though they can't cast them, nor it says anywhere wheter they can cast those spells from wands or scrolls or not (unlike for wizards specialization schools).
If that's the case (spells are still on their spell list even though they can't cast them) then a cleric would be able to use spell trigger items such as wands to cast those spells (even thoguh i don't think their deity will like this)

I haven't found anything on FAQs or errata

[herceg]

Even though it's clear that a cleric can't cast spells with an alignment descriptor opposed to his deity's (so a chaotic good cleric can't cast evil spells nor lawful spells) it's not stated anywhere wheter these spells are still in their spell list even though they can't cast them, nor it says anywhere wheter they can cast those spells from wands or scrolls or not (unlike for wizards specialization schools).
If that's the case (spells are still on their spell list even though they can't cast them) then a cleric would be able to use spell trigger items such as wands to cast those spells (even thoguh i don't think their deity will like this)

I haven't found anything on FAQs or errata

On gut I'd go with "no", given that those spells "violate" alignment tenets, using them in any way shouldn't be possible.

Of course, you can go with "yeah, you can use it but prepare to have a talk with the upper management" or "you can, but be prepared that your deity won't grant you new spells anymore".

[Mordaedil]

Ask your DM.

If he says "you can try it" it's a trap, don't activate that item, it will cause you to fall or take some other negative drawback.

[valepu]

Thanks for your answers, i'd like to know if there's a RAW answer on this that doesn't involve my DM giving a reason for my god to zap me :smalleek:

[Pleh]

A cleric casts divine spells, which are drawn from the cleric spell list. However, his alignment may restrict him from casting certain spells opposed to his moral or ethical beliefs; see Chaotic, Evil, Good, and Lawful Spells, below. A cleric must choose and prepare his spells in advance (see below).

To prepare or cast a spell, a cleric must have a Wisdom score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a cleric’s spell is 10 + the spell level + the cleric’s Wisdom modifier.

Like other spellcasters, a cleric can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. His base daily spell allotment is given on Table: The Cleric. In addition, he receives bonus spells per day if he has a high Wisdom score. A cleric also gets one domain spell of each spell level he can cast, starting at 1st level. When a cleric prepares a spell in a domain spell slot, it must come from one of his two domains (see Deities, Domains, and Domain Spells, below).

Clerics meditate or pray for their spells. Each cleric must choose a time at which he must spend 1 hour each day in quiet contemplation or supplication to regain his daily allotment of spells. Time spent resting has no effect on whether a cleric can prepare spells. A cleric may prepare and cast any spell on the cleric spell list, provided that he can cast spells of that level, but he must choose which spells to prepare during his daily meditation.

RAW from the SRD tells me that no cleric has individualized spell lists (except as individualized as Domain combinations can be) and all clerics know the same list of spells.

But the only alignment restriction is Casting the spells. Nothing prevents a Good cleric from Preparing an Evil spell, even if it is useless to do so since they are wasting a spell slot on a spell they cannot Cast.

Remember that "Clerics meditate or pray for their spells." So let's imagine a scenario:

"Oh mighty Pelor! God of healing and light! Grant me today the power to Inflict Moderate Injuries upon your enemies!"

"... You want to me to help you do WHAT now?"

[valepu]

Well, inflict wounds spells don't have the evil descriptor (just like cure wounds don't have the good descriptor) though but i get the idea :smallbiggrin:

I think this clears things up for being or not on the list, and i think it also clears it up for scrolls, thanks! But what about wands? Casting a spell from a wand is not considered as if you were casting it and the only requisite to cast from a wand is to have the spell on your spell list

[Sagetim]

RAW from the SRD tells me that no cleric has individualized spell lists (except as individualized as Domain combinations can be) and all clerics know the same list of spells.

But the only alignment restriction is Casting the spells. Nothing prevents a Good cleric from Preparing an Evil spell, even if it is useless to do so since they are wasting a spell slot on a spell they cannot Cast.

Remember that "Clerics meditate or pray for their spells." So let's imagine a scenario:

"Oh mighty Pelor! God of healing and light! Grant me today the power to Inflict Moderate Injuries upon your enemies!"

"... You want to me to help you do WHAT now?"

I think you got your prayer mixed up there a bit...
"Oh mighty Pelor! Burning Hate Within The Sky Whose Mighty Eye Ravages The Lesser Beings! Grant Unto Me the Power To Smite Thine Enemies Most Readily, Grant Unto Me The Vengeful Fist of Spite!"
"Did you bring a hand of a suitable cleric for the material component?"
"YES MY LORD!"
"GRANTED!"

or, alternatively:
"Oh Mystra, she who manages the weave most kindly and whose thoughtful attention keeps the magic of the world flowing, I have a humble request."
"Go on."
"Pray, Grant unto me the spell of Animate Dead, not once but Thrice on this fine morning. I have to show some necromancers a thing or two and it will really come in handy."
"....what? Are you sure you didn't convert to Pelor, the Burning Hate?"

[Pleh]

Eh, I read the theory on the burning hate (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?443306-quot-Pelor-the-Burning-Hate-quot-(from-Wizards-forum)). I didn't find the argument very persuasive. I don't really buy it.

[ApplePen]

The burning hate is one of those crazy awesome fan theories made from a series of dev flubs. The biggest being that they recycled his name from a 1e demon, and the 3.5 symbol of pain.

Sure it was an oversight and a mistake in that order, but being listed in print means it's canonical enough that you can run it.

[St Fan]

The limitation of Clerics from casting spells of certain alignments is not so much a class limitation (like forbidden schools for wizard), but a vow the cleric makes toward his or her deity. Trying to wiggle out of such vows through technicalities or rule lawyering is generally a bad idea. It's the best way of finding out that the deity is now suddenly refusing to grant ANY spell or special powers one morning while praying.

Also, please note that the wording of the Cleric entry imply that it is not just CLERIC spells which are so limited. In fact, a multiclass Wizard/Cleric should be forbidden to cast even wizard spells of opposite alignments. (Though I understand it can be argued, that's much more logical from the viewpoint of a sacred vow.)

[Pleh]

The burning hate is one of those crazy awesome fan theories made from a series of dev flubs. The biggest being that they recycled his name from a 1e demon, and the 3.5 symbol of pain.

Sure it was an oversight and a mistake in that order, but being listed in print means it's canonical enough that you can run it.

Oh, I have no problem with people choosing to run it that way. Have fun!

I just found the arguments to be ultimately circumstantial at best and not the most convincing conspiracy theory I've heard besides. Nothing should stop people from running with it and having fun despite it all.

Heck, run a topsy turvy pantheon where all the deities are secretly polar opposite their perceived alignment.

Wee Jas is really a dark protector, limiting the use of magic and moderating the death count. Boccob seeks knowledge, but guards it jealously and secretly subverts all efforts to uncover the truth. Nerull actually cares for mortals and sees life as torment, planning for a peaceful reprieve to their souls in quiet death.

Go nuts.

[Hackulator]

On gut I'd go with "no", given that those spells "violate" alignment tenets, using them in any way shouldn't be possible.

Of course, you can go with "yeah, you can use it but prepare to have a talk with the upper management" or "you can, but be prepared that your deity won't grant you new spells anymore".

Pretty much this. Remember that casting evil spells is inherently evil on a metaphysical level in the D&D world, it's not just some wonky class restriction with no fluff behind it.

[Sagetim]

Pretty much this. Remember that casting evil spells is inherently evil on a metaphysical level in the D&D world, it's not just some wonky class restriction with no fluff behind it.

Also remember that casting aligned spells moves you towards that alignment. So if you cast enough animate deads in rapid succession, in addition to getting dropped by any good deity, your alignment will shift from good to neutral and possibly to evil. Atonement from a cleric of your deity may not even be something you want at that point, as you may want to just go whole hog and convert to a new deity that better reflects your whole undead raising shenanigans policy.

And my post at 5am was just to be silly, if I ran Pelor as The Burning Hate, that would probably be a core concept of the campaign, possibly with the players being in a mirror-greyhawk and having to choose how to proceed from there.