Is Mage Armor worth it?

[tieren]

I'm making my first pure caster in a long time (Sea Sorcerer) and I am a little frustrated with what to do about the Armor Class.

She doesn't have proficiency in any armor, I don't really want her to. Shes a spy with very high charisma and good mental stats, and poor physical stats (except Con).

I only get 2 spells known at first level and mage armor seems almost mandatory. With no MA I have 10 AC, but with it I am only at 13 and still pretty likely to get hit by anything that tries.

Is it worth taking up one of my precious spells known to raise my AC such a small amount? Would it be better to just take shield for a 5 AC bump when it really matters than a 3 AC bump for 8 hrs?

[Ninja_Prawn]

I've grappled with this as well (albeit with a wizard (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=691366)). At the end of the day, if you have low Str and Dex, you'll always struggle for AC.


poor physical stats

Yeah, like that. Even with Mage Armour, you'll still get hit most of the time. I'd say, for a sorcerer, it's not worth the cost. Shield seems to me to be the better choice - my wizard knows it - but for a sorcerer I'd argue against. You have so few spells known, and something that might stop one or two attacks per day isn't hugely beneficial. You're better off maximising your strengths rather than trying to patch a weakness.

[Diebo]

You've got a character concept, it sounds like going straight sorcerer doesn't really accomplish that.

I'd recommend a small dip into blade singer. You'd gain a bunch of utility spells, rituals, could learn mage armor, and have boosts to your AC through bladesong. Just refluff it to work with your vision of a sea sorcerer.

Then finish up with sorcerer. You'd have full spell slots progression, and if you ever got there, would eventually learn 9th level spells.

[tieren]

You've got a character concept, it sounds like going straight sorcerer doesn't really accomplish that.

I'd recommend a small dip into blade singer. You'd gain a bunch of utility spells, rituals, could learn mage armor, and have boosts to your AC through bladesong. Just refluff it to work with your vision of a sea sorcerer.

Then finish up with sorcerer. You'd have full spell slots progression, and if you ever got there, would eventually learn 9th level spells.

I disagree, my concept is a straight sorcerer, I don't want her to be a strong melee fighter or a nimble ninja. I want her to be charming and clever and smart. Shes not going to fight with a stick or a rapier, she'll attack with magic. Shes good at deception, insight, and history.

I guess the big question is if I do my best to stand in the back and avoid getting hit should I worry about spending resources for incremental gains on AC or just accept that is a weakness?

She's a Yuan-ti pureblood and already has magic resistance so I guess the only thing I'd be really worried about would be archers.

edit:
Mechanically I could swap stats around to give her a 14 in Dex and a 10 in int but I really don't want to do that, I am sick and tired of dumping mental stats (particularly int) because they are less optimized, why can't I have a smart character who isn't a wizard?

[Azgeroth]

Short answer, yes.

because, in 5e every little helps *chink* *chink*.. no really, every +1 counts, otherwise why would people want +1 weapons? just get them silvered!

your talking about a +3 to your AC. in other circumstances, its not usually an optimal choice, but it is a good one if your dex is 10.

also, 1 spell slot(of level 1), for 8 HOURS of non concentration, +3 to AC buffage is rather awesome..

you could also look at it this way, what other spell are you going to cast, that is going to give you such a benefit?? there isn't one. also, i would take sleep for the other spell, sea sorc or not, its quite possibly the best level 1 spell.

[Naanomi]

I like to take Mage Armor as the spell I get at 2nd level; or whatever level I decide to switch out Sleep. You are right that with so few spells per day it can be hard to justify casting at low levels; but at higher levels you often have little better to do with those level 1 slots. Shield isn't quite a replacement for Mage Armor (in fact, Shield works much better with Mage Armor already in place).

[Diebo]

edit:
Mechanically I could swap stats around to give her a 14 in Dex and a 10 in int but I really don't want to do that, I am sick and tired of dumping mental stats (particularly int) because they are less optimized, why can't I have a smart character who isn't a wizard?

In that case, I'd just ask the DM to allow you to use Intelligence for AC instead of Dexterity. It wouldn't break anything on a 14 intelligence Sorcerer. You would still have poor initiative, poor dexterity saving throws. Just refluff for this specific non-optimized character that the intelligence allows you to predict incoming blows and use that information to help avoid them. The rules are guidelines, don't let them get in the way of fun.

[Ninja_Prawn]

what other spell are you going to cast

For a sorcerer it's not about spell slots, it's about spells known. At level 1 in a 'conventional' (high Dex) build, Mage Armour is compulsory and you need an attack spell ...and that's it. There is literally zero room for anything interesting. Even as you go up levels, the problem never really goes away - it's one of the main complaints people have with the sorcerer as a class.

I maintain that accepting low AC is the way to go with this sort of character. Let the tanks take the attacks and concentrate on doing your thing.

[Zejety]

I can't really help with the conclusion to draw from this, but here is the objective data on how much damage mage armor will avoid on average depending on the attacker's bonus to attack rolls:
http://i.imgur.com/UN3ggMQ.png
Of course, for a low-HP character like a Sorcerer, averages are not quite as relevant, because the swinginess of things is more important.

My gut tells me that Shield will be the better choice for a cautious playstyle, especially if you are not that concerned over spell slots.

[Spiderguy24]

I will be blunt with this. In this edition, there are no taunts that will force the enemies to attack the higher armored allies. None. There are skills, spells and feats that give an enemy disadvantages on attacks, but smart enemies can and will get around them, and they will target the spellcaster shooting fireballs of death at them. A smart and clever character will recognize this flaw, and work to compensate it. Mage Armor is a great spell to help with this. Even with an AC of 13, add the Shield spell onto that, and you will be far harder to hit, which means it will give you more chances to deal those flaming fireballs of doom, rather than constantly eating dirt and making death saving throws.

[Innocent_bystan]

I disagree, my concept is a straight sorcerer, I don't want her to be a strong melee fighter or a nimble ninja. I want her to be charming and clever and smart. Shes not going to fight with a stick or a rapier, she'll attack with magic. Shes good at deception, insight, and history.

Have you considered a 3 level dip in Bard?
Expertise, cutting words, more skills, a wider spell selection and also depend on Charisma for spellcasting.

Also: is Sorcerer (the class) tied to your concept of a Sorcerer (the theme). I treat classes as a pure mechanical meta construct with very little in game theme, but not everyone sees it that way.

Edit: more on topic, you can also use Minor Illusion to create a temporary cover. One shot and everybody sees through it, but you should get the AC bonus once. You can also use party members as a source of cover.

[Joe the Rat]

It would be good to have, but not necessarily at the expense of other options. You might consider it for first level, then switch out at 2 for other options, and maybe bring it back later.

As a magic-resistant back-liner, your biggest issue is ranged attacks. Get some cover. Make some cover. Shape water is thematic, but you won't always have enough water on hand to turn into a stable 5x5 Ice Pavisse. So buck up and Mold Earth. You can easily pull 3/4 to full cover with a rampart-and-foxhole. Pop-and-shoot is a mechanically viable tactic - and if they want to hold to take a shot at you when you pop up, that's one less action against your teammates. Your Sea Witch feature will help extend the life of your emplacement by cutting down on enemy mobility (You are taking ray of frost, right?). From there, it's relying on your party to keep you alive while you make life difficult from behind the lines.

[Puh Laden]

10 Int isn't stupid, and if you have skill proficiencies, that's more important than having a high Int. 10 Int with a proficiency in a knowledge-based skill represents a normal person who has studied hard. Put the 14 in DEX, and mage armor isn't necessary, so long as your sorcerer doesn't draw attention in combat. Though I suppose what matters the most is how your DM roleplays the monsters and what monsters he throws at you.

[Specter]

Mage Armor isn't mandatory, but if you have no source of armor it's more important than Shield: +3AC for 8 hours beats +5AC for one round.

But that doesn't mean it's not very good: without Mage Armor, you can expect even folks with disadvantage hitting you consistently. Later on, when you have more spells, make room for it.

[Naanomi]

I will be blunt with this. In this edition, there are no taunts that will force the enemies to attack the higher armored allies. None
Compelled Duel and Oath of the Crown: Champion Challenge both force people to stay within 30' of you; so are pretty close

[Submortimer]

I'm making my first pure caster in a long time (Sea Sorcerer) and I am a little frustrated with what to do about the Armor Class.

She doesn't have proficiency in any armor, I don't really want her to. Shes a spy with very high charisma and good mental stats, and poor physical stats (except Con).

I only get 2 spells known at first level and mage armor seems almost mandatory. With no MA I have 10 AC, but with it I am only at 13 and still pretty likely to get hit by anything that tries.

Is it worth taking up one of my precious spells known to raise my AC such a small amount? Would it be better to just take shield for a 5 AC bump when it really matters than a 3 AC bump for 8 hrs?

Question: What is more important here, the Sorcerer part or the Sea Part?

The reason I ask is that Stone Sorcerery has your AC fix, if that's what's really getting to you.

[ad_hoc]

Mage Armour isn't worth it in general.

Those spell slots are important and you don't get very many of them.

If you are going to take a defensive spell take Shield. You only need to use it when you are reasonably sure it will actually do some good.

Mage Armour or not you won't last long against attacks. Your primary objective is to avoid attacks.

[Naanomi]

Mage Armour isn't worth it in general.

Those spell slots are important and you don't get very many of them.

If you are going to take a defensive spell take Shield. You only need to use it when you are reasonably sure it will actually do some good.

Mage Armour or not you won't last long against attacks. Your primary objective is to avoid attacks.
Shield works so much better with Mage Armor already up and running. At some point you really won't have much else productive to use those level 1 Spell slots on anyways

[Rysto]

Shield works so much better with Mage Armor already up and running. At some point you really won't have much else productive to use those level 1 Spell slots on anyways

Well, for a Sorcerer each L1 slot is worth 1 Sorcery Point, which isn't a bad conversion rate. Still, I like Mage Armour on my Sorcerers too.

[tieren]

Question: What is more important here, the Sorcerer part or the Sea Part?

The reason I ask is that Stone Sorcerery has your AC fix, if that's what's really getting to you.

I really am drawn to the sea sorcerer.

The character is a Yuan-ti pureblood who is a deep cover spy posing as a green draconic sorcerer in the lords alliance (helps explain her patches of scales and poison immunity). I love the Sea Sorcerer defensive stuff that kicks in at higher levels and the curse is really driving my spell selections in interesting directions. (never really considered the "distant spell" meta magic but a 30' shocking grasp seems intriguing now; will probably go elemental adept (cold) at some point).

I think I am going to try without at first and I can swap it in if necessary next level. A true draconic sorcerer wouldn't need to worry about it because draconic resilience already sets AC at 13 so MA is moot.

[Tanarii]

Mage armor at low levels seems like a criminal* misuse of a critical spell slot for any sorcerer or wizard. For the first 2-3 levels, If you're getting attacked more than once per level per long rest, with even AC 13, you're in far too deep in the first place.

*Clearly any player choosing it for their PC's 1st level spells known / spell book should be strung up by their thumbs. :smallamused:

[CursedRhubarb]

From my experience, if you have an AC of <15 then it tends to be as if you don't have any since you'll get hit with attack rolls almost every time. I'd grab Shield or fog cloud and work at using and making cover. Then when you get lvl 2 spells Mirror Image, Web, and Suggestion will help keep people away or slow them down. You can always swap 1 spell you know for a new one as well as the one you get for leveling up so you could try Mage Armor or Shield, then swap it if it doesn't work out too well.

[Khrysaes]

You could take 2 levels of Warlock.

Pick the invocation for mage armor at will. Or, since UA seems okay, pick Hexblade, and get Medium Armor.

Also pick up eldritch blast and agonizing blast.

Hex and Armor of Agathys.

Or instead of Agonizing, pick a different Invocation.

Either way you get your mage armor, and can cast it infinitely.

You add a good blasting power, maybe add frost lance invocation, or repelling blast, to mesh it with your sea sorcerer curse.

And hex while also a good debuff, helps deal more damage.

Fuel sorcery points with you 2 first level spells per short rest, its half as good as the sorcerer capstone, but early on.

[JackPhoenix]

Edit: more on topic, you can also use Minor Illusion to create a temporary cover. One shot and everybody sees through it, but you should get the AC bonus once. You can also use party members as a source of cover.

You can't and you shouldn't get any AC bonus. Minor Illusion won't stop the attack, so it's not a cover. It will, however, make you unseen, meaning the enemy will have a disadvantage when attacking you, protects you from many targeted spells, and you'll have advantage on your own attack as long as the illusion wasn't "broken".

[Jamesps]

From a strictly mathematical perspective the only spell that can reliably prevent damage better than mage armor at your level is Sleep. For the people suggesting shield, they're assuming you'll only be attacked on one particular round per day. If you get attacked on two different rounds in a given day (a pretty high likelihood in most campaigns) mage armor is better. If, gods forbid, you actually get attacked a few different times in a given day mage armor will blow shield out of the water. Shield is something you might retrain to after you get more spell slots, but do /not/ take it at first level.

Remember also that you can retrain your spells every level. Mage armor has a huge payoff right now, but maybe once you get invisibility you don't find you need it anymore? That's fine, you can retrain mage armor to something more suited to your character like Disguise Self. Take it for now, it's the second best spell at your level. Maybe retrain it later.

Remember also that enemies can often have pretty pathetic attack bonuses early on. Most creatures top out at +4 at your current level. There's some that don't even have attack bonuses. They get the die roll. Against that sort of opponent AC13 isn't bad at all.

[tieren]

You could take 2 levels of Warlock.

Pick the invocation for mage armor at will. Or, since UA seems okay, pick Hexblade, and get Medium Armor.

Also pick up eldritch blast and agonizing blast.

Hex and Armor of Agathys.

Or instead of Agonizing, pick a different Invocation.

Either way you get your mage armor, and can cast it infinitely.

You add a good blasting power, maybe add frost lance invocation, or repelling blast, to mesh it with your sea sorcerer curse.

And hex while also a good debuff, helps deal more damage.

Fuel sorcery points with you 2 first level spells per short rest, its half as good as the sorcerer capstone, but early on.

This is a good mechanical solution, as is the recommendation to dip bard, but the problem I am having is an RP one, I don't want to wear armor, or make a pact with a sentient weapon, or become an EB spammer. On paper it all works out more optimized than what I want to do, but its not the character I want to play.

Not directly intentional but I think I am going to end up much closer to Princess Elsa from Frozen (and I am strangely looking forward to it).

[Pex]

Options:

1) Lump it. Accept you'll have low AC for the entire Campaign.

2) Let your 2nd level slots be dedicated for your personal defense. Mirror Image, Misty Step.

3) Play Variant Human and take Magic Initiate as your feat. Choose Mage Armor for your 1st level spell and get a couple of more cantrips. One of your Sorcerer 1st level spells can be Shied and still have one more for whatever you want.

4) Easier if playing Variant Human but choose to spend feats on armor proficiency. As human get Light Armor at 1st level, Medium Armor at 4th level. You don't not want it now, but if AC is a cause for concern you may have to lump it. If it helps, have armor made out of material that goes with the sea theme or at least look like it does. Needs DM approval. Coral Armor for example or a humanoid-size Clam Shell looking thing. You're spending feats and following the mechanics. It's just flavor text.

[Waterdeep Merch]

Looking at Zejety's numbers to verify my bias, I'd say the benefits of mage armor are only useful in the early portions of the game and you ought to consider swapping it later when attack bonuses start making the AC bump negligible. Given your difficulties, Pex's option 2 sounds best- dedicate most of your low level spells to defensive purposes, especially anything that works off absorbing damage (mirror image) or escaping dangerous situations (misty step). You'll have certain difficulties, but they aren't insurmountable and it could be kind of fun playing up to your inherent weakness. You don't do well with getting hit, so make plans to not get hit.

[Khrysaes]

This is a good mechanical solution, as is the recommendation to dip bard, but the problem I am having is an RP one, I don't want to wear armor, or make a pact with a sentient weapon, or become an EB spammer. On paper it all works out more optimized than what I want to do, but its not the character I want to play.

Not directly intentional but I think I am going to end up much closer to Princess Elsa from Frozen (and I am strangely looking forward to it).

Then dont?

You can pick a different patron.

You dont Have to wear armor, or Spam EB.

Those are just options that are opened up.

Your concern was if MA was worth it 2 Levels of Warlock gets you infinite mage armor, Half of the sorcerer capstone, and several other capabilities.

You could take the Disguise Self at will Invocation, and be even more capable as a social spy.

You get a few more cantrips too, Take EB as a "last resort" because it is good to have regardless if you dont optimize it, or if you dont want the frost lance/repelling blast synergy with sea sorcerer, and take Minor illusion, or Friends(to be paired with Disguise self).

If you go 3 levels of warlock(sacrificing 18th archetype feature of sorc), you can get 3 more cantrips, from other classes, like vicious mockery, or guidance or message.

Just because the option is available to optimize, doesnt mean you have to take it. You could also probably refluff the pact to something less... of a pact. stylize it as something else.

[psychopomp23]

Who's in your party? How likely do you think you'll be attacked? Do you think the setting will allow you to be able to get distance for your attack? What's your CON stat? Maybe switch DEX with CON to get some modifier to at least try to get 15AC with Mage Armor.

[Dalebert]

Having a base 10 AC made me very nervous. I did a one level dip into bard for my wild mage sorcerer. Just two spells at first level means definitely no, it's not worth half your known spells, particularly when Shield is pretty much a given.

With one level of bard, I can now where studded leather, just 12 AC but it's not a spell tax anymore. Also, you get four spells known that can be REALLY good to have and continue to be good and useful well into higher levels. This massively expanded my very limited spells known for a small price. Bardic inspiration that scales with charisma is also nice icing.

Spells I took: Healing Word (twinnable), Tasha's Hideous Laughter (twinnable), Dissonant Whispers (twinnable), and Feather Fall, a life-saver even more so at the higher levels when flying is more of a thing.

Sidenote: I feel the Mage Armor invocation is especially not worth it when warlocks already have a base 12 AC for free with studded leather.

EDIT: Another perk of getting your AC from light armor is you can potentially get magic armor later which holds up well when you can add your dex bonus.

[tieren]

Who's in your party? How likely do you think you'll be attacked? Do you think the setting will allow you to be able to get distance for your attack? What's your CON stat? Maybe switch DEX with CON to get some modifier to at least try to get 15AC with Mage Armor.

The party is still forming but I expect a typical array of fighter types and gishes who will be more comfortable in melee.

I expect to be reasonably able to stay at range, i took shocking grasp as a cantrip so even if an enemy closes I should be able to zap them and get away without AoO, os its mostly range attacks I'll need to avoid.

My Con is 14, my total array is now Str 8, Dex 10, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 13, Cha 17. I hope to make my first ASI Wis+1, Cha+1.

[ad_hoc]

From a strictly mathematical perspective the only spell that can reliably prevent damage better than mage armor at your level is Sleep. For the people suggesting shield, they're assuming you'll only be attacked on one particular round per day. If you get attacked on two different rounds in a given day (a pretty high likelihood in most campaigns) mage armor is better. If, gods forbid, you actually get attacked a few different times in a given day mage armor will blow shield out of the water. Shield is something you might retrain to after you get more spell slots, but do /not/ take it at first level.

You're making the assumption that the attack will fall into the narrow range where Mage Armour will be useful.

The key with Shield is that you get to cast it after you know what the roll was. It is also +5 rather than +3 so there is more opportunity for it to be useful.

Also, Mage Armour only lasts for 8 hours so it doesn't last the whole day anyway.

Shield is what you use when you don't have very many spell slots. Mage Armour is what you use when you have slots to waste.

[psychopomp23]

The party is still forming but I expect a typical array of fighter types and gishes who will be more comfortable in melee.

I expect to be reasonably able to stay at range, i took shocking grasp as a cantrip so even if an enemy closes I should be able to zap them and get away without AoO, os its mostly range attacks I'll need to avoid.

My Con is 14, my total array is now Str 8, Dex 10, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 13, Cha 17. I hope to make my first ASI Wis+1, Cha+1.

So if you switched your CON with your DEX you would get 15AC with Mage armor for one spell for 8 hours. Shield is also great but it might consume your resources quickly? at first level creatures gets what? +3/+5 to hit? So they would need a 10 or more (50%) to hit you. If you stay at 10 then they need about a 5 or higher (75%) to hit you. Would that 2HP more really help you?

[Innocent_bystan]

You can't and you shouldn't get any AC bonus. Minor Illusion won't stop the attack, so it's not a cover. It will, however, make you unseen, meaning the enemy will have a disadvantage when attacking you, protects you from many targeted spells, and you'll have advantage on your own attack as long as the illusion wasn't "broken".

I stand corrected.

[Specter]

You're making the assumption that the attack will fall into the narrow range where Mage Armour will be useful.

The key with Shield is that you get to cast it after you know what the roll was. It is also +5 rather than +3 so there is more opportunity for it to be useful.

Also, Mage Armour only lasts for 8 hours so it doesn't last the whole day anyway.

Shield is what you use when you don't have very many spell slots. Mage Armour is what you use when you have slots to waste.

I'm pretty sure that if you calculate the damage reduction of +3 AC for 8 hours and +5 for 1 round there's no way Shield can win. At least not in the standard adventuring day.

[solidork]

Take this as you will, but we just wrapped up Princes of the Apocalypse and our super reckless draconic sorcerer went from 1-12 with only 10 in Dex. I'm also pretty sure that if she picked up Shield it was pretty late in the game.

So, not an answer to your main question (since she gets 13 AC for free) but it is a real data point for something like sticking with +0 Dex and not knowing Shield.

[Spiderguy24]

Compelled Duel and Oath of the Crown: Champion Challenge both force people to stay within 30' of you; so are pretty close

Wrong. Forcing a creature to stay close to you, and forcing them not to attack the squishy spellcaster, archer, or any other members of the party is completely different, oh and only Paladins get these.

Take compelled duel for instance. The enemy can still attack someone else if they are within range or have a ranged attack, they just have disadvantage. If the Paladins moves more than 30 ft away from the target, the spell ends, as well as if the creature is attacked by your allies, and if it makes its wisdom save it can move that turn. Nothing in the actual mechanics say that the target can not attempt to hit something else due to the spells effects.

Champion challenge has a similar problem, but not as bad. Use this on a group of ranged enemies, yeah they can't move 30 ft away from the Paladin, but they don't have to. They can shoot you, a lot, without disadvantage from the effect.

None of those are actual taunts that fully prevents an enemy from attacking anything else other than you. Smart enemies will recognize this and take advantage, and if the DM controlling them is good.

[ad_hoc]

I'm pretty sure that if you calculate the damage reduction of +3 AC for 8 hours and +5 for 1 round there's no way Shield can win. At least not in the standard adventuring day.

Mage Armour will help you once out of every 6 2/3 attacks.

If you end up in situations where you get attacked that many times then the 1 hit you avoid won't make a difference anyway.

Shield will be useful once every 4 attacks or thereabout and you can choose at the time whether to use the slot on it.

So yeah, even if you are going to be attacked more than 6 2/3 times per 8 hours (which will happen some days) it still might not be worth it.

*edit* Also Shield lasts for the rest of the round so it has a chance of effecting other attacks. If you happen to get attacked more than 13 times in one adventuring day, Shield may still end up performing as well for that 1 slot as Mage Armour. On those other days though you will end up saving a slot by not casting Mage Armour at all.

[Tanarii]

I'm pretty sure that if you calculate the damage reduction of +3 AC for 8 hours and +5 for 1 round there's no way Shield can win. At least not in the standard adventuring day.
That's his point. The damage reduction of shield is 100% of one attack. Because you only use it if it can make a difference.

So if you only get attacked once in a Long rest at level one, Mage armor is a slot for 15% chance less to get hit by it. Shield is either NO slots and getting hit or missed anyway, or a slot for 100% chance not to get hit. It's a much more efficient use of the slot.

If you're getting attacked more than once or twice in your first adventuring day as a sorcerer at level one, you're dead no matter what. Because statistically, one WILL hit you and it'll take you down. Unless it's such a piddly attacks that it doesn't really matter.

As a general rule, your best defense as a Sorc or Wizard for the first few levels is not being where you are going to get attacked in the first place. That's what AC 18 Fighters, Paladins and Clerics are for. Your second best is as much Con as you can load up so when you DO get attacked you can survive the hit and get out. After that AC is a tertiary concern. (Even after the first few levels, this still kinda holds true.)

[Naanomi]

In the longer term, Shield is a lot more effective at being able to stop attack if your underlying AC is already reasonable. The +5 just has a lot more efficacy when it is added to 13-16 instead of 10-13

[GorogIrongut]

First, I'm of the opinion that Stone Sorceror would fix your problem... and while it's not overpowered, is my favourite of the Sorceror Subclasses. I always play mine as a dwarf.

Second, you have a lot of people suggesting a couple level dip into bard. May I counter by suggesting a dip into Cleric instead... One level can get you an insane amount of good stuff. Depending on which domain you choose, you can get a whole lot more. You'd start with a base Medium Armour... When combat shows up, just equip a shield (one arm) and use the other one for casting spells. A breastplate plus shield gives you an AC of 16 which is respectable for a caster. If you then have Shield, you can survive much bigger hits.

If you're willing to put two levels into Cleric then you open up fun from the Domains like Trickery and Knowledge:

Channel Divinity:
Starting at 2nd level, you can use your Channel Divinity to tap into a divine well of knowledge. As an action, you choose one skill or tool. For 10 minutes, you have proficiency with the chosen skill or tool.

or

Starting at 2nd level, you can use your Channel Divinity to create an illusory duplicate of yourself. As an action, you create a perfect illusion of yourself that lasts for 1 minute, or until you lose your concentration (as if you were concentrating on a spell).

The first is super useful the second is a boon to a caster who doesn't want to be targetted but still be able to cast in combat (just not concentration spells).

Both a 1 or a 2 level dip into Cleric gives you something that Sorceror usually doesn't have... spell flexibility. You get a plethora of spells both in cantrip and level 1 form. If you go Trickery you get Charm Person and Disguise Self for free and then get to choose the rest of your spells. That's 3 cantrips and your Wisdom Modifier + Cleric Level worth of spells. Guidance... Bless... Guiding Bolt... Healing Word... Sanctuary... and that's not counting the utility spells like Detect Magic, Protection from G&E, etc. Even better, you get to switch and swap your cleric spells on a long rest to better suit your adventuring needs. You don't get to do this as a Sorceror as you well know, so a 1 level dip in to Cleric can give you some much needed magical wiggle room.

[Tanarii]

In the longer term, Shield is a lot more effective at being able to stop attack if your underlying AC is already reasonable. The +5 just has a lot more efficacy when it is added to 13-16 instead of 10-13
Not really. Because again, you only use it if the attack would hit you but Shield can stop it. So overall statistical calculations like reduction of DPR taken relative to current and new chances of getting hit don't typically kick in.

Your comment does hold true if you expect to be attacked more than once while shield is up, ie you used it on the first attack of a multiattack.

[Waterdeep Merch]

Not really. Because again, you only use it if the attack would hit you but Shield can stop it. So overall statistical calculations like reduction of DPR taken relative to current and new chances of getting hit don't typically kick in.

Your comment does hold true if you expect to be attacked more than once while shield is up, ie you used it on the first attack of a multiattack.
It also makes a much more narrow window for shield's usage in the first place, as they'd need a higher attack roll to even be in that range. If your AC is high enough and your opponent's attack bonus is low enough, this can very easily put your potential AC into nearly unhittable territory, where only a natural 20 actually hits. This is one of the reasons why an EK can make such a great tank.

This sounds like semantics, but it's about safety and slots. A higher AC would need to rely on their limited slots for shield less. Moreover, if your AC isn't high enough in the first place some attacks will just not be blockable. Thus, I'd argue, a character with a higher AC benefits more greatly from shield than one with a lower AC. Though I wouldn't argue that this makes shield a bad choice on the latter, that would be absurd.

[Sigreid]

IMO, unless you have a dex of at least 14, mage armor isn't going to push your AC up high enough to make it worth the spell slot. You're better off using that slot to shut down the person trying to harm you.

[Tanarii]

It also makes a much more narrow window for shield's usage in the first place, as they'd need a higher attack roll to even be in that range. If your AC is high enough and your opponent's attack bonus is low enough, this can very easily put your potential AC into nearly unhittable territory, where only a natural 20 actually hits. This is one of the reasons why an EK can make such a great tank.

Thats only true if your AC is so high you are only hit on a 16+ on the die to start with. Otherwise there's a flat 25% chance on every attack against you that you can burn a slot to prevent 100% of the damage.

[Khrysaes]

People keep talking about the best option to increase armor, often suggesting to wear armor.

The OP doesn't want to wear armor, and has 10 dex.

While actually wearing armor is an option, to get by without it there are several options.

Use mage armor/shield in a slot. Uses a limited resource, but if staying 100% Pure Sea Sorc, this is likely your only option besides investing a feat to become proficient in Actual armor, which you dont want to wear.

MC Warlock, and get the Mage armor invocation Takes 2 levels.

MC Barbarian or Monk, for Unarmored Defense Takes 1 level.

MC the Pacifist Paladin in UA, and get the 16 AC + dex Oath. Takes 3 levels.

if an option, maybe MC mystic. I am not sure from memory if any of the things you can use focus on grant you better AC, but it is also an option. I think Immortal might?

MC Some other Class/Subclass combination that gets a passive unarmored AC Bonus. The ones above are the only ones I can think of.

Else, wear ACTUAL armor.

MC Warlock/Hexblade, gain Medium Armor.

MC Cleric, gain medium or heavy armor, depending on your spell selection. Tempest would probably work well with the storm and sea sorcerer.

MC into another class that gains armor proficiency post level 1. Or start as a class and MC into sorcerer.

Or Finally:

Suck it up and live with your 10 AC, just stay away from the thick f combat, and invest your spells into things like Charm, Sleep, Misty Step, Mirror Image, Etc.

Or Up your Dex.

[Naanomi]

Thats only true if your AC is so high you are only hit on a 16+ on the die to start with. Otherwise there's a flat 25% chance on every attack against you that you can burn a slot to prevent 100% of the damage.
Or, one could conjecture, so low that the attack would only miss on a 1 (admittedly a more rare situation)

[Sigreid]

People keep talking about the best option to increase armor, often suggesting to wear armor.

The OP doesn't want to wear armor, and has 10 dex.

While actually wearing armor is an option, to get by without it there are several options.

Use mage armor/shield in a slot. Uses a limited resource, but if staying 100% Pure Sea Sorc, this is likely your only option besides investing a feat to become proficient in Actual armor, which you dont want to wear.

MC Warlock, and get the Mage armor invocation Takes 2 levels.

MC Barbarian or Monk, for Unarmored Defense Takes 1 level.

MC the Pacifist Paladin in UA, and get the 16 AC + dex Oath. Takes 3 levels.

if an option, maybe MC mystic. I am not sure from memory if any of the things you can use focus on grant you better AC, but it is also an option. I think Immortal might?

MC Some other Class/Subclass combination that gets a passive unarmored AC Bonus. The ones above are the only ones I can think of.

Else, wear ACTUAL armor.

MC Warlock/Hexblade, gain Medium Armor.

MC Cleric, gain medium or heavy armor, depending on your spell selection. Tempest would probably work well with the storm and sea sorcerer.

MC into another class that gains armor proficiency post level 1. Or start as a class and MC into sorcerer.

Or Finally:

Suck it up and live with your 10 AC, just stay away from the thick f combat, and invest your spells into things like Charm, Sleep, Misty Step, Mirror Image, Etc.

Or Up your Dex.

My storm sorcerer has a dex of 10 and no armor or mage armor spell. I prioritized Cha>Con. So far, with the help of the party and things like hypnotic pattern, I've managed to just tough out the few direct attacks against him. So far, everyone who has attacked him has hit, but with a high con, that has been ok. He does his best to stay out of reach without being somewhere where he cannot contribute to the fight.

[SharkForce]

alternately, multiclass into warlock, wear light armour, and use disguise self (via invocation to get it at-will) to look like you aren't wearing armour (you can also use it to subtly make yourself look less like a yuan-ti).

that will leave you with a patron (fiend will give a bit more toughness and access to the command spell, fey will give you access to sleep and a 1-round short-range aoe charm, old one will give you 30 foot range telepathy, which i imagine a spy would find quite useful), 2/short rest level 1 slots, 3 spells known (i recommend picking up armour of agathys to help even more with survivability that doesn't cost concentration, and illusory script, which you wouldn't be able to learn as a single-classed sorcerer), 2 cantrips (neither of which need to be eldritch blast if that isn't your thing; you could pick up utility options like mage hand, minor illusion, prestidigitation, or even friends to be used in combination with your ability to alter your appearance as often as you like, which would free you up for for interesting options elsewhere), and an invocation to spare (devil's sight would be an interesting option that could help make you harder to kill, or misty visions for silent image at will is another interesting option that has some interesting potential for a sneaky character).

and since you're not required to walk around with a giant flashing neon sign that says "i dipped warlock", you just describe yourself the exact same way you would have without the warlock dip. heck, a "great old one" patron could be a godlike being worshipped by the yuan-ti, or even just some incredibly ancient yuan-ti that evolved itself into something greater.

in any event, i feel like you've picked a theme, which is great, but you're locking yourself into sorcerer only when i would say it makes more sense to consider *anything* that fits with your concept of "spy".

[psychopomp23]

People keep talking about the best option to increase armor, often suggesting to wear armor.

MC Barbarian or Monk, for Unarmored Defense Takes 1 level.

if an option, maybe MC mystic. I am not sure from memory if any of the things you can use focus on grant you better AC, but it is also an option. I think Immortal might?

MC Some other Class/Subclass combination that gets a passive unarmored AC Bonus. The ones above are the only ones I can think of.

Or Finally:

Suck it up and live with your 10 AC, just stay away from the thick f combat, and invest your spells into things like Charm, Sleep, Misty Step, Mirror Image, Etc.

Or Up your Dex.

Yeah its the immortal path.

Not sure that his stats would make taking a level of barbarian or monk worth it for what he wants to do.

If he switches his Con for his dex he would have the same value of a shield spell with mage armor but for 8 hours at the cost of 2HP.

[Finger6842]

I find it interesting that you will try to fill a traditional Bard or Rogue roll with Sorcerer. I would have expected an Illusionist Wizard instead in that role. Either way, good luck. Please post here with how it works out.

Now you have me wondering how a Yuan-Ti 18 Lore Bard/1 Fighter or Rogue/1 Wizard, Spy would play. What Background would you take? Your familiar could be a snake.

[Gtdead]

Don't bother with mage armor. More AC is good when you already have lots of it. The spell slot will serve you better if you cast sleep with it rather than mage armor.

[imanidiot]

I'm making my first pure caster in a long time (Sea Sorcerer) and I am a little frustrated with what to do about the Armor Class.

She doesn't have proficiency in any armor, I don't really want her to. Shes a spy with very high charisma and good mental stats, and poor physical stats (except Con).

I only get 2 spells known at first level and mage armor seems almost mandatory. With no MA I have 10 AC, but with it I am only at 13 and still pretty likely to get hit by anything that tries.

Is it worth taking up one of my precious spells known to raise my AC such a small amount? Would it be better to just take shield for a 5 AC bump when it really matters than a 3 AC bump for 8 hrs?

Mage Armor isn't really worth it if you have a limited number of spells. Shield is much better used judiciously. My current high level Sorcerer has never had it.

[90sMusic]

Err...

Not sure I understand here. You seem to be a sorcerer, so why not just pick draconic bloodline and then you get automatic mage armor equivalent. Then it doesn't waste one of your few, precious known spells.

If you don't want to be a dragon sorc, i'd skip mage armor. Remember, every single point of AC is just reducing your chance to be hit by 5%, so that extra 3 is just an extra 15% chance to not get whacked. And at some point, enemies will have anywhere from 80 to 90% chance of hitting you anyway. It's better to just play tactfully instead of relying on armor.

[Naanomi]

If you find yourself going into long rests with level 1 Spell slots unspent regularly, then you should look at picking up Mage Armor. For me it happens pretty quick

[Gignere]

There is no need for mage armor if you learn positioning as a pure casters. AC is useless if you are not a legal target or not a logical target. For example when I play wizard the first thing I do is typically hide behind minor illusion, than buff the raging barbarian with haste. No one will even attempt to swing at the caster with a DPR machine in their face. Otherwise I use obstacle to give me cover, a lot of times I would move cast and move back behind full cover once again not a legal target.

At my best I went 6 sessions without even getting targetted with an attack that targets AC. I even joked to the DM and the other players what is the AC stat or even HPs stat and that was when the DM dragon breathed me down, lol.

[Naanomi]

There is no need for mage armor if you learn positioning as a pure casters. AC is useless if you are not a legal target or not a logical target. For example when I play wizard the first thing I do is typically hide behind minor illusion, than buff the raging barbarian with haste. No one will even attempt to swing at the caster with a DPR machine in their face. Otherwise I use obstacle to give me cover, a lot of times I would move cast and move back behind full cover once again not a legal target.

At my best I went 6 sessions without even getting targetted with an attack that targets AC. I even joked to the DM and the other players what is the AC stat or even HPs stat and that was when the DM dragon breathed me down, lol.
That idea always is a bit confusing to me... if your party fought a caster/Barbarian team; they would surely find some way to target the caster... why do intelligent monsters act so much different than intelligent PCs by never 'ignoring the DPR machine in their face' ? I mean... if you were faced with a run-and-hide caster you would be able to devise a way to shut it down right?

[Gignere]

That idea always is a bit confusing to me... if your party fought a caster/Barbarian team; they would surely find some way to target the caster... why do intelligent monsters act so much different than intelligent PCs by never 'ignoring the DPR machine in their face' ? I mean... if you were faced with a run-and-hide caster you would be able to devise a way to shut it down right?

If the first action is someone hiding behind an obstacle and not direct casting how would they know I am the one juicing up the barbarian they can't even see me casting behind the cover. Even with intelligent monsters unless they have arcana skill how would they know that the barbarian was hasted or that even the guy that just ran away was the one who hasted the barbarian. So why would smart creatures ignore the melee take probably 3-4 attacks of opportunity and hope to find me who can potentially be out of their movement range and lose their action to dash. When I position I even take into account the mobs likely movement into account. 20 int wizard with almost all the Lore proficiencies can justify that.

[JackPhoenix]

If the first action is someone hiding behind an obstacle and not direct casting how would they know I am the one juicing up the barbarian they can't even see me casting behind the cover. Even with intelligent monsters unless they have arcana skill how would they know that the barbarian was hasted or that even the guy that just ran away was the one who hasted the barbarian. So why would smart creatures ignore the melee take probably 3-4 attacks of opportunity and hope to find me who can potentially be out of their movement range and lose their action to dash. When I position I even take into account the mobs likely movement into account. 20 int wizard with almost all the Lore proficiencies can justify that.

They can hear you say the V component of the spell, and Haste require you to see the target, so you can't be hiding in a hole and buffing the barbarian at the same time. If you have LoS to the barbarian, he and other creatures nearby have LoS to you. And even if the enemies aren't learned about magic, they can see the barbarian is under some spell (people aren't that fast without magic), and they never seen him cast anything (even if they don't necessarily know what the spell does, spellcasting itself is pretty obvious).

Moreover, they wouldn't take "3-4 attacks of opportunity". The barbarian has one reaction. And if there are multiple enemies, they'll do the same thing you're doing: one (or more) will tie up the barbarian, while others will go deal with the rest of the combatants.

However, most enemies would ignore you if Haste is your only contribution to the fight... but then, you'd better be sure the barbarian can manage the fight (presumably balanced for 2 people if it's CaS game) on his own.

[Gignere]

They can hear you say the V component of the spell, and Haste require you to see the target, so you can't be hiding in a hole and buffing the barbarian at the same time. If you have LoS to the barbarian, he and other creatures nearby have LoS to you. And even if the enemies aren't learned about magic, they can see the barbarian is under some spell (people aren't that fast without magic), and they never seen him cast anything (even if they don't necessarily know what the spell does, spellcasting itself is pretty obvious).

Moreover, they wouldn't take "3-4 attacks of opportunity". The barbarian has one reaction. And if there are multiple enemies, they'll do the same thing you're doing: one (or more) will tie up the barbarian, while others will go deal with the rest of the combatants.

However, most enemies would ignore you if Haste is your only contribution to the fight... but then, you'd better be sure the barbarian can manage the fight (presumably balanced for 2 people if it's CaS game) on his own.

I use the barbarian as an example but it isn't a two PC game. There are other members of the party. That is where the 3 -4 AoO comes from. Hell if a DM metagames and try to use the mobs to spend their action to try and corner and outmaneuver me, the fight will be over, it will become a cakewalk for the rest of the party.

[Spore]

Our Phoenix Sorcerer picked Magic Initiate Wizard just for Mage Armor (plus Prestidigitation and I think Light). You usually cast this once per day. But honestly, +3 is a nice bonus but you can do without it. Bonus AC gets more valuable the more you have of it.

Let's take the only minion type enemy I have access to thanks to Curse of Strahd. They have 2 attacks using a dagger, bite or claws. Basically 2x 3(1d4 + 1) damage with +3 to hit.

No armor, no dex:
AC 10 gets hit 65% of the times: The minions deal 0,65 * 6 = 4 damage per turn.
Mage armor, no dex:
AC 13 gets hit 50% of the times: The minions deal 0,5 * 6 = 3 damage per turn.
Mage armor, Dex 14:
AC 15 gets hit 40% of the times: 0,4 * 6 = 2,4.
Mage Armor, Dex 14, Shield as reaction:
AC 19 gets hit 10% of the times: 0,1 * 6 = 0,6.

See what I mean? You either take of a bit of the edge, or you straightout quadruple your effective HP. So you either invest heavily in AC, or you take control of the battlefield to avoid being hit at all.

Personally I would postpone it until 3rd level when you get 2nd level spells to play with.
1: Sleep and Charm Person
2: Add Shield
3. Get Invisibility, switch Mage Armor for Sleep
4. Add in Snowball Swarm (refluffed as a stormy ice rain)

[SharkForce]

Our Phoenix Sorcerer picked Magic Initiate Wizard just for Mage Armor (plus Prestidigitation and I think Light). You usually cast this once per day. But honestly, +3 is a nice bonus but you can do without it. Bonus AC gets more valuable the more you have of it.

Let's take the only minion type enemy I have access to thanks to Curse of Strahd. They have 2 attacks using a dagger, bite or claws. Basically 2x 3(1d4 + 1) damage with +3 to hit.

No armor, no dex:
AC 10 gets hit 65% of the times: The minions deal 0,65 * 6 = 4 damage per turn.
Mage armor, no dex:
AC 13 gets hit 50% of the times: The minions deal 0,5 * 6 = 3 damage per turn.
Mage armor, Dex 14:
AC 15 gets hit 40% of the times: 0,4 * 6 = 2,4.
Mage Armor, Dex 14, Shield as reaction:
AC 19 gets hit 10% of the times: 0,1 * 6 = 0,6.

See what I mean? You either take of a bit of the edge, or you straightout quadruple your effective HP. So you either invest heavily in AC, or you take control of the battlefield to avoid being hit at all.

Personally I would postpone it until 3rd level when you get 2nd level spells to play with.
1: Sleep and Charm Person
2: Add Shield
3. Get Invisibility, switch Mage Armor for Sleep
4. Add in Snowball Swarm (refluffed as a stormy ice rain)

why take magic initiate wizard if you're gonna take spells on your own list? if magic initiate is the same as your own class, you can cast the spell with regular spell slots too, it just gives you one extra...

[Spore]

why take magic initiate wizard if you're gonna take spells on your own list? if magic initiate is the same as your own class, you can cast the spell with regular spell slots too, it just gives you one extra...

Beats me. The same dude took Fireball as his only 3rd level spell - before Haste because that wouldn't be thematic enough for a Phoenix Mage, yannow, blistering speed and all that. He then claims the combat is boring because he can only do Fireball or Fire Bolt. Yet he took almost no control spells. Just charm spells and damage.

[Naanomi]

I use the barbarian as an example but it isn't a two PC game. There are other members of the party. That is where the 3 -4 AoO comes from. Hell if a DM metagames and try to use the mobs to spend their action to try and corner and outmaneuver me, the fight will be over, it will become a cakewalk for the rest of the party.
Ok the question still stands; why are what are supposed to be intelligent monsters expected to use dumb tactics like ignoring casters? Why are they not hasting their greatest melee threat then moving everyone else out of line of sight? The question isn't how they would necessarily respond to the situation (I used two PCs because you cited two PCs); but rather how you would respond to monsters using those identical tactics?

[Quoxis]

Not meaning to be disrespectful, but... What exactly do you expect from this thread? You've got your character built and don't want to change anything, so everything i can help you with is how to play it, and that's in a way your fellow players won't be amazed by: hide.
Hide plenty.
Get behind cover (the longer the better) and try to hide mid-combat.
Maybe even drop fog cloud (at higher levels this will get cooler bysubstituting with stinking cloud which does damage to non-poison-immune creatures - you're save) on yourself or strategic points for obscured area to hide in, pop out of to cast anything and hop back into it. A 2-level dip in rogue would be helpful because with cunning action you could hide on a bonus action, but as you want the full on sorcerer route that'll be less interesting for you.
I like the idea for the character, really, and my opinion about players having to have either heavy armor proficiency or at least 14-16 dex to not be hit by every attack against them, but if your character concept is a magically active, sly and charismatic but physically utterly normal humanoid (except for the scales), then that's the character. It's a decision like making a monk agile but weak, a barbarian strong but dumb or a wizard smart but grumpy.

[Gignere]

Ok the question still stands; why are what are supposed to be intelligent monsters expected to use dumb tactics like ignoring casters? Why are they not hasting their greatest melee threat then moving everyone else out of line of sight? The question isn't how they would necessarily respond to the situation (I used two PCs because you cited two PCs); but rather how you would respond to monsters using those identical tactics?

Improvise I don't use the same tactics irrespective of mobs and circumstances but if you get good enough and know how to use positioning, vision distance, cover rules you can basically ignore AC. Yes once in a while the DM will and can outmaneuver me but it is rare not because I am smarter than the DM but I only need to maximize my own abilities to avoid being a legal target a DM need to multitask and worry about engaging the other players too. This is why I like roleplaying a wizard you can easily make the game into 5 dimensional chess and see how many games you can avoid being a legal target against the DM.

[Sigreid]

Improvise I don't use the same tactics irrespective of mobs and circumstances but if you get good enough and know how to use positioning, vision distance, cover rules you can basically ignore AC. Yes once in a while the DM will and can outmaneuver me but it is rare not because I am smarter than the DM but I only need to maximize my own abilities to avoid being a legal target a DM need to multitask and worry about engaging the other players too. This is why I like roleplaying a wizard you can easily make the game into 5 dimensional chess and see how many games you can avoid being a legal target against the DM.

I'll give a simple example. There's nothing wrong with casting your spell and then using your movement to duck around the corner, if one is available. Now the mobs have a choice. Fight the guys in front of them, or provoke an AOO going after you, with no certainty whether you're just around the corner and they can get to you or you've fled farther away and they are going to take an AOO only to find they set themselves up for a lightning bolt from a wizard who moved too far to be attacked.

[Chugger]

As others have said, I'm kind of agreeing that you're kind of stuck* til you get high enough to just cast Mage Armor and it's not a problem cuz you can deal with the lost spell slot okay at that point. As you know, MA lasts "all day" - 8 hours - unless dispelled - no conc - it's a really good spell.

*Except, as others have said, you can do things like seek cover - behind a rock or a stump and so on. I had to skim the middle posts (they were dragging), so sorry if someone said this, but if you have or could get minor illusion cantrip, you can always make cover for yourself - make an illusion of a stump or a rock or a crate or w/e (if your DM allows minor illusion to work that way - this won't always work). A possible interpretation of MI is that you know it's an illusion because you're the caster and you therefore can see out of it if while hiding inside it - also you have touched it and should (possibly) know it's an illusion (and it will be faint to you - according to PHB - and if the DM, say, says faint is "not that faint" and forces you to take a disad attacking out of it - then anything that does a successful ST against your MI should still be attacking you at a disad - so your DM is possibly stuck there - again you have to ultimately check with how the DM handles people using MI for cover - so so so many ways this could go). The best possible case for MI is that while you are in it, enemies have a minus to hit your or a disad to hit you until they have a successful ST (which eats an action of theirs!) or they touch the MI (and auto-disbelieve it, at which point it becomes very faint to them and they see you perfectly) - but - this interpretation gives you at least some benefit and survivability - at least for a few rounds (in most cases).

I'd seek cover in a MI even if I had Mage Armor and it didn't hurt me to burn an action casting it (i.e. I know the enemy is about to arrive and have at least one round to prepare and nothing better to cast). Hope this helps.

[Tanarii]

If you physically interact with Minor Illusion, you're going to make it faint for the enemy too. Making it useless for concealment. (Not cover.)

[Foxhound438]

It would be good to have, but not necessarily at the expense of other options. You might consider it for first level, then switch out at 2 for other options, and maybe bring it back later.

As a magic-resistant back-liner, your biggest issue is ranged attacks. Get some cover. Make some cover. Shape water is thematic, but you won't always have enough water on hand to turn into a stable 5x5 Ice Pavisse. So buck up and Mold Earth. You can easily pull 3/4 to full cover with a rampart-and-foxhole. Pop-and-shoot is a mechanically viable tactic - and if they want to hold to take a shot at you when you pop up, that's one less action against your teammates. Your Sea Witch feature will help extend the life of your emplacement by cutting down on enemy mobility (You are taking ray of frost, right?). From there, it's relying on your party to keep you alive while you make life difficult from behind the lines.

also if you're successful in being far enough back to avoid melee, dropping prone forces attacks against you to have disadvantage, while if you yourself use cantrips and spells that require target saves you lose no accuracy yourself. combined with cover, you can basically have an AC of 12-15 with everything attacking you at disadvantage. Not bad.

[Citan]

Not really. Because again, you only use it if the attack would hit you but Shield can stop it. So overall statistical calculations like reduction of DPR taken relative to current and new chances of getting hit don't typically kick in.

Your comment does hold true if you expect to be attacked more than once while shield is up, ie you used it on the first attack of a multiattack.
Except that this involves either having already encountered and battled a least once the kind of creature that is attacking you, OR doing heavy metagame, which is a very sad practice imo.

You get to announce to use Shield after you are hit from the "normal roll", but you don't know the modifiers it gets until you got to see a few rolls and deduced it consequently (or worse, you don't even know the roll in the first place if DM does not roll openly -although in that case he should at the very least tell the player if Shield is gonna make a difference, but that's also metagaming. One of the reasons why rolling openly is usually better imo at least for straight-up fights-). Ergo, until you have a fair idea of attack bonuses, you cannot be sure that Shield will be enough to deflect the incoming attack.

Also, 15 AC (10+Shield) is still very easy to reach (many starting 1/4 CR creatures have +4 to hit already, and quickly go up to +5 or +6 at CR 3, then "takes" more or less +1 every 2 levels although some creatures hit harder than others for the same CR, like a Treant with +10 for CR9 or the Humber Hulk) so chances are you will be into situations where Shield is useless more often than you'd like.
Not even talking about when you reach CR9+ creatures here, where not using Shield means nearly an auto-hit (normal attack) or extremely high chance to hit (disadvantage), and for some significant damage too, so basically you would need to use Shield on each and every turn where at least one creature made an attack against you.

As for getting attacked several times in a turn, it should normally not be such a common situation since a caster is supposed to hide/take cover/put himself out of range in the first place. But it stills heavily depends on the campaign and BBEG fought (aka on the DM). In Combat as War, you have to expect the caster to be a high priority target, especially once enemy knows he's that easy to hit.
With that said, good teamwork tactics can certainly make a AC 10 player survive (with just a bit of luck), even if he will get downed on a regular basis.



There is no need for mage armor if you learn positioning as a pure casters. AC is useless if you are not a legal target or not a logical target. For example when I play wizard the first thing I do is typically hide behind minor illusion, than buff the raging barbarian with haste. No one will even attempt to swing at the caster with a DPR machine in their face. Otherwise I use obstacle to give me cover, a lot of times I would move cast and move back behind full cover once again not a legal target.

At my best I went 6 sessions without even getting targetted with an attack that targets AC. I even joked to the DM and the other players what is the AC stat or even HPs stat and that was when the DM dragon breathed me down, lol.

If the first action is someone hiding behind an obstacle and not direct casting how would they know I am the one juicing up the barbarian they can't even see me casting behind the cover. Even with intelligent monsters unless they have arcana skill how would they know that the barbarian was hasted or that even the guy that just ran away was the one who hasted the barbarian. So why would smart creatures ignore the melee take probably 3-4 attacks of opportunity and hope to find me who can potentially be out of their movement range and lose their action to dash. When I position I even take into account the mobs likely movement into account. 20 int wizard with almost all the Lore proficiencies can justify that.

They can hear you say the V component of the spell, and Haste require you to see the target, so you can't be hiding in a hole and buffing the barbarian at the same time. If you have LoS to the barbarian, he and other creatures nearby have LoS to you. And even if the enemies aren't learned about magic, they can see the barbarian is under some spell (people aren't that fast without magic), and they never seen him cast anything (even if they don't necessarily know what the spell does, spellcasting itself is pretty obvious).

Moreover, they wouldn't take "3-4 attacks of opportunity". The barbarian has one reaction. And if there are multiple enemies, they'll do the same thing you're doing: one (or more) will tie up the barbarian, while others will go deal with the rest of the combatants.

However, most enemies would ignore you if Haste is your only contribution to the fight... but then, you'd better be sure the barbarian can manage the fight (presumably balanced for 2 people if it's CaS game) on his own.
What he said.
Your tactics are sound, but they are not failproof, by far.
First, monsters would certainly take a way that limits the number of OA sustained, so unless your party managed to sandwich the closest that's not 3-4 attacks, that's one. At most. Because that monster could also disengage, move just enough to pinpoint your position, then relay it to casters/archers/flyers so they can attack on their coming turn (or use its free interaction with minor illusion). At best, they will attack you at disadvantage because they cannot circumvent the cover (so technically you're concealed, just not Hidden). At worst, they had enough manoeuverability to get good line of sight. Then you'll have to cast one precious Shield.

Or they could even not realize that it's an illusion at first, then throw an AOE in the hope of hitting you "around" the cover: Shield won't help, you have ****ty Dex saves, and your Minor Illusion will be blown as well. :)

As for target priority? As soon as they idendified you as the caster who made the already dangerous barbarian as a deadly force, they WILL target you as a priority unless there are all enemies that don't know anything about spellcasting and concentration in the first place (improbable in most situations I'd say, except animals or very low-mental creatures such as skeletons or zombies). A fortiori if there is a knowledgeable caster among enemies, because he will be able to identify the spell through the effects and know that once concentration is broken, Barbarian will be helpless for a turn, so perfect chance to get rid of him.

[Gignere]

Except that this involves either having already encountered and battled a least once the kind of creature that is attacking you, OR doing heavy metagame, which is a very sad practice imo.

You get to announce to use Shield after you are hit from the "normal roll", but you don't know the modifiers it gets until you got to see a few rolls and deduced it consequently (or worse, you don't even know the roll in the first place if DM does not roll openly -although in that case he should at the very least tell the player if Shield is gonna make a difference, but that's also metagaming. One of the reasons why rolling openly is usually better imo at least for straight-up fights-). Ergo, until you have a fair idea of attack bonuses, you cannot be sure that Shield will be enough to deflect the incoming attack.

Also, 15 AC (10+Shield) is still very easy to reach (many starting 1/4 CR creatures have +4 to hit already, and quickly go up to +5 or +6 at CR 3, then "takes" more or less +1 every 2 levels although some creatures hit harder than others for the same CR, like a Treant with +10 for CR9 or the Humber Hulk) so chances are you will be into situations where Shield is useless more often than you'd like.
Not even talking about when you reach CR9+ creatures here, where not using Shield means nearly an auto-hit (normal attack) or extremely high chance to hit (disadvantage), and for some significant damage too, so basically you would need to use Shield on each and every turn where at least one creature made an attack against you.

As for getting attacked several times in a turn, it should normally not be such a common situation since a caster is supposed to hide/take cover/put himself out of range in the first place. But it stills heavily depends on the campaign and BBEG fought (aka on the DM). In Combat as War, you have to expect the caster to be a high priority target, especially once enemy knows he's that easy to hit.
With that said, good teamwork tactics can certainly make a AC 10 player survive (with just a bit of luck), even if he will get downed on a regular basis.




What he said.
Your tactics are sound, but they are not failproof, by far.
First, monsters would certainly take a way that limits the number of OA sustained, so unless your party managed to sandwich the closest that's not 3-4 attacks, that's one. At most. Because that monster could also disengage, move just enough to pinpoint your position, then relay it to casters/archers/flyers so they can attack on their coming turn (or use its free interaction with minor illusion). At best, they will attack you at disadvantage because they cannot circumvent the cover (so technically you're concealed, just not Hidden). At worst, they had enough manoeuverability to get good line of sight. Then you'll have to cast one precious Shield.

Or they could even not realize that it's an illusion at first, then throw an AOE in the hope of hitting you "around" the cover: Shield won't help, you have ****ty Dex saves, and your Minor Illusion will be blown as well. :)

As for target priority? As soon as they idendified you as the caster who made the already dangerous barbarian as a deadly force, they WILL target you as a priority unless there are all enemies that don't know anything about spellcasting and concentration in the first place (improbable in most situations I'd say, except animals or very low-mental creatures such as skeletons or zombies). A fortiori if there is a knowledgeable caster among enemies, because he will be able to identify the spell through the effects and know that once concentration is broken, Barbarian will be helpless for a turn, so perfect chance to get rid of him.

I never said it was failed proof just giving the OP my experience as a wizard who has gotten to level 8 without mage armor and rocking my 13 AC until we dropped an eleven chain.

[Citan]

I never said it was failed proof just giving the OP my experience as a wizard who has gotten to level 8 without mage armor and rocking my 13 AC until we dropped an eleven chain.
I'm sorry, this is not the impression you gave...

Improvise I don't use the same tactics irrespective of mobs and circumstances but if you get good enough and know how to use positioning, vision distance, cover rules you can basically ignore AC. Yes once in a while the DM will and can outmaneuver me but it is rare not because I am smarter than the DM but I only need to maximize my own abilities to avoid being a legal target a DM need to multitask and worry about engaging the other players too. This is why I like roleplaying a wizard you can easily make the game into 5 dimensional chess and see how many games you can avoid being a legal target against the DM.
This sentence seemed quite too general, that's why I made that comment. :)
However good you are, getting out of view and attention is not necessarily something that can achieved on a regular basis: it depends on settings, environment, parties's composition and DM's "grittiness" (Combat as Sport VS Combat as War).
Also, 13 is not 10 (may seem not much of a difference, but it is a significant difference).

On that note, congrats on getting this far and good luck on surviving the oncoming levels with 13 AC. :smallwink:

[jas61292]

As a general comment on AC and casters, I think how importaTt AC, and thus Mage Armor is depends a ton on the type of game you play and the composition of your party. There are far to many style and party combinations to say what will be best, but there are games when AC is paramount for a mage, and there are other games where a well played mage will never even be taking an attack so their AC is irrelevant. Think about your DMs style and who you are playing with. If your DM like strategic play and provides detailed environments to work with (and you are comfortable doing so), AC really is not important if you play right, assuming you have someone else in the party willing to take the front line. On the other hand, if your experiences with your DM feel closer to white room slugfests, or your party lacks anyone more tanky than you, then you cannot afford to not have a good AC.

In short: it depends.

[tieren]

Update.

My DM has proposed a super cool solution letting me use the Yuan-ti trait of innate spellcasting and swapping out animal friendship (snakes) to mage armor (self) so it won't use spell known or slot (once daily ).

Fluffing it to come from affinity with water making her harder to hit.

[Chugger]

If you physically interact with Minor Illusion, you're going to make it faint for the enemy too. Making it useless for concealment. (Not cover.)

That's not how everyone interprets it - it becomes faint "to you" if you touch is how some I've seen interpret - thought I've seen some even funker-than-this interpretations of MI. And if MI worked this way I'd cast it over the person I wanted to hide leaving peep holes for shooting through or something. Or at least make a stump they could hide behind - pop up and shoot - then duck behind - that would arguably be like "being in darkness" and arguably would impose a disad for at least one round.

Actually, a strict reading of the PHB on MI indicates that touching it does NOT cause it to go faint, so we're both wrong! :D Only disbelieving it cause it to go faint - by a good ST - and then the illusion becomes faint to that creature. Thus sayeth the rulez!

Now, DMs hate illusions - or many do - and you never know what you'll get. The point is if a Sorc is squishy and crying over losing a spell slot to get MA and isn't trying to get natural cover from rocks and logs and stumps and trees and w/e - and isn't trying to make cover with cantrips - then this person deserves an arrow or two - and I don't really mean that - but you get it. The point is to TRY, right?

[Citan]

Update.

My DM has proposed a super cool solution letting me use the Yuan-ti trait of innate spellcasting and swapping out animal friendship (snakes) to mage armor (self) so it won't use spell known or slot (once daily ).

Fluffing it to come from affinity with water making her harder to hit.
Well then, that's a perfect solution indeed. ;)
Have fun!