PDA

View Full Version : Oppressive RPG Settings?



mister__joshua
2017-07-14, 09:35 AM
Hi Playground

I find myself wanting to run a game in an oppressive setting. I read Midnight (FF's 3rd edition D&D setting) a while back. I'm not necessarily looking for fantasy though, just any setting where the world is by it's very nature oppressive to the players. I'm thinking of PC games like Wolfenstein or Homefront, or maybe a setting like Falling Skies or XCOM-2 (earth after Aliens have taken over). Zombies would work, but we've done that before. A real daily struggle for survival.

So, does anyone have any recommendations?

Cheers!

CharonsHelper
2017-07-14, 09:38 AM
To go with a classic - isn't that Dark Sun's vibe?

mister__joshua
2017-07-14, 09:39 AM
I considered Dark Sun, but was hoping for something more recent. I'll probably pick it up if/when there's a 5e version, but I don't intend to go back to 3rd edition.

Lord Torath
2017-07-14, 10:03 AM
I considered Dark Sun, but was hoping for something more recent. I'll probably pick it up if/when there's a 5e version, but I don't intend to go back to 3rd edition.2nd Edition (pre-revised boxed set) has the best setting. (Did they actually release anything for third? I remember hearing talk of using Goliaths instead of Hlaf-giants, but I don't remember for certain, as 3rd's never really been my thing.) It's worth checking out for the fluff, even if you're not going to use the mechanics.

Is there a particular system you're looking for? Shadowrun could work pretty well.

Has anyone ever tried a Dark Angel (James Cameron's TV show with Jessica Alba) setting? The US is reduced to a 3rd-world country when terrorists detonated a nuke in the upper atmosphere, creating an EMP pulse that turned all the Internet's ones and zeros into zeros. And the government gets all "security is more important than our citizens' personal freedoms".

JAL_1138
2017-07-14, 10:18 AM
5e just doesn't have much besides FR, currently. 2e and 3e material does translate well to it though.

One thing 5th edition does have some current material for is Ravenloft. There's a season's worth of Adventurers' League adventures on DMsguild, and the Curse of Strahd hardcover. It's a gothic-horror setting that's definitely got a dark, oppressive vibe. 2nd Edition had a ton of good additional material for Ravenloft (it was a full-fledged campaign setting back then) that translates nicely to 5th without too much work, as well.

Amphetryon
2017-07-14, 10:20 AM
Answering the aside: 3.5 had a Dark Sun update in an issue of Dragon magazine. I don't recall which issue number, but I owned it once upon a time.

mister__joshua
2017-07-14, 10:52 AM
I enjoy D&D as much as the next geek, but I'm not overly sold on the idea of a level-based system for the sort of thing I'm after. Shadowrun was suggested, we've played that before. It has a certain corporate capitalist oppression, but not the sort of 'daily struggle' feeling I was after. For the average citizen it's just life as normal. I'm after a setting where the whole thing (world/country/whatever) is either ruled over my a tyrannical regime, or is uninhabitable due to plague or monsters etc. A setting where the life of an average citizen is a constant struggle to survive. Maybe such a setting doesn't exist, though I'd be surprised at that.

Dragonexx
2017-07-14, 11:07 AM
There's also some fan updates of dark sun to 3e.
http://athas.org/products?publisher=Athas.org

JAL_1138
2017-07-14, 11:17 AM
For the average citizen it's just life as normal. I'm after a setting where the whole thing (world/country/whatever) is either ruled over my a tyrannical regime, or is uninhabitable due to plague or monsters etc. A setting where the life of an average citizen is a constant struggle to survive. Maybe such a setting doesn't exist, though I'd be surprised at that.

Aside from being D&D, Ravenloft fits that bill quite well. It's set in the Demiplane of Dread, which is controlled by sadistic, malicious forces known only as the "Dark Powers," who use it as an ironic hell for their victims, the darklords. The darklords are powerful, twisted individuals who each control a realm of the Demiplane of Dread, but are cursed by the Dark Powers to exist in torment, forever denied their true desires. Strahd von Zarovich, the Darklord of Barovia, is a cruel vampiric tyrant who controls legions of vampire spawn, undead, shadows, and werewolves, and Barovia is full of spectres, hags, and other nasty critters. The land is blanketed by heavy fog and dense clouds on its brightest days, the crops wither on the vine in the blighted soil, starvation and cold kill many in the harsh winters, and his subjects live in constant terror of him and call him "the devil." The Dark Powers themselves take an active interest in corrupting people, including PCs, offering fell powers as "gifts" or bargains, that invariably come with a terrible price, whether that's an explicit exchange or more subtle corruption.

CharonsHelper
2017-07-14, 11:29 AM
I'm after a setting where the whole thing (world/country/whatever) is either ruled over my a tyrannical regime, or is uninhabitable due to plague or monsters etc. A setting where the life of an average citizen is a constant struggle to survive. Maybe such a setting doesn't exist, though I'd be surprised at that.

What about Warhammer Fantasy and/or 40k? Especially if you push the constant threat from Chaos corruption on one side and witch-hunters/inquisitors on the other.

I've heard mixed reviews of Warhammer 3e (the most recent Warhammer Fantasy RPG), but I believe that they recently announced 4e to be upcoming if you're not in a rush. I think it's supposed to be released this year - though I haven't heard an exact date.

Aneurin
2017-07-14, 12:12 PM
What about Warhammer Fantasy and/or 40k? Especially if you push the constant threat from Chaos corruption on one side and witch-hunters/inquisitors on the other.

I've heard mixed reviews of Warhammer 3e (the most recent Warhammer Fantasy RPG), but I believe that they recently announced 4e to be upcoming if you're not in a rush. I think it's supposed to be released this year - though I haven't heard an exact date.

I was about to suggest the same thing, although the RPGs are now officially out of print since the old publisher lost the license in February.

WFRP 4e is being made by a different publisher, who may or may not re-release the old versions too. WFRP 3e is fairly unpopular from everything I've heard, but 2e is pretty good.


Alternatively, there's a couple of Fallout RPGs people have made that you might want to look at. While Fallout isn't always that oppressive, it certainly could be - particularly with the Enclave around.

CharonsHelper
2017-07-14, 12:18 PM
WFRP 3e is fairly unpopular from everything I've heard, but 2e is pretty good.

I think there may have been a Warhammer Fantasy 2e hack on Kickstarter not long ago. From what little I read old 2e fans liked the tweaks, but it's a massive tome which is tough for totally new players to get into. (all 2nd hand info - I never read it)

Aneurin
2017-07-14, 12:44 PM
I think there may have been a Warhammer Fantasy 2e hack on Kickstarter not long ago. From what little I read old 2e fans liked the tweaks, but it's a massive tome which is tough for totally new players to get into. (all 2nd hand info - I never read it)

Oh, yeah, Zweihander - I forgot about that. Though it's more system than setting, it does do low fantasy pretty well apparently, and is at least in part inspired by the Black Company novels (which could be an interesting setting, actually) along with some others I can't bring to mind right now.

zlefin
2017-07-14, 12:56 PM
oppressive actual and serious, or oppressive to a comedic degree? (still opressive, but played somewhat for laughs and overthetopness)
if the latter, Paranoia would work well.

Calthropstu
2017-07-14, 01:17 PM
I second Paranoia.

solidork
2017-07-14, 01:42 PM
Just how much setting are you interested in? A sourcebook similar to the kinds you get for most D&D settings, or is something evocative where you fill in the little details yourself also acceptable? Are you going to play it in whatever the "native" setting is, or use it for a different game?

I've only listened to an actual play of it, but Durance (http://bullypulpitgames.com/games/durance/) seemed pretty cool. You play as characters on a prison planet (each player has one prisoner and one civilian) that was surveyed incorrectly and so has something about it that makes living there very hard.

Heres a link to the AP:
http://www.thewalkingeye.com/?p=1720
http://www.thewalkingeye.com/?p=1724

Cealocanth
2017-07-14, 04:52 PM
So, besides the already mentioned, there's Deadlands, a horror western game based around the American West slowly transforming into a literal biblical apocalyptic wasteland. Then there's Hell on Earth, the post-apocalyptic continuation of the story.

There's also Hellfrost, a fantasy setting based heavily on Norse and Celtic lore, about a world slowly freezing over as the hordes of winter slowly begin to swarm the land, bringing the world closer and closer to Ragnarok.

Mouseguard can feel pretty freaking oppressive if you play it right. It's almost entirely about struggling against the world around you.

But yeah, if you want oppression in the political sense, try Paranoia.

Arbane
2017-07-14, 11:07 PM
Paranoia and Midnight have been mentioned, so both ends of the Seriousness Spectrum are covered.

Legend of the Five Rings? It's a terrible dystopia, and Hell On Earth is a short walk to the south.

Exalted, if you play as mortals.

The world in Godbound is pretty grim - turns out that trying to kill God had negative repercussions Good thing the PCs are mighty, because that's the only way they'll survive.

Any Old World of Darkness setting: The world sucks, you're a monster, monster society is eternally high school, and you're the nerds. :D

Apocalypse World.

Knaight
2017-07-15, 12:08 AM
In addition to everything else that has been mentioned:
Nemesis: A modern action horror game, Nemesis pits the PCs against a secret world of monsters and cultists,
Blades in the Dark: Blades in the Dark is a game about playing a street gang in what is basically an early industrial city. The other gangs are mostly hostile, and outside of the underworld everyone is hostile - and the rules back this up.

AceOfFools
2017-07-15, 01:25 AM
Believe it or not, Exalted is actually a good fit. You just have to not play the default, over-the-top epic splat. It's particularly bleak for mortals.

There's not so much one omicidal force poised to destroy the world as 3--if not more. Heaven is bogged down by massive corruption and the leadership of the gods are all so addicted to cosmic WoW-crack that they can't be bothered to try to fix any of it.

Of the three best hopes for dealing with any of this, one is trying to erraticate the other two and is posturing to fight a civil war that seems more important than things that will wipe them out two or three years from now, another explicitly views civilization as part of the problem and is trying to push humanity back towards our hunter-gather roots, and the third literally just woke up with their powers, but none of the skills or equipment they will need--and the biggest religion in the world has "kill these on sight" as one of it's biggest tenants. Oh, and all three of these factions, as well as the people currently in charge of determining who is Destined for what, are suffering from a Curse that guarantees that they will eventually go mad in the unlikely event they succeed (if not sooner). Also, the largest non-magical

It is theorized, in-universe, that humanity was literally designed to be weak, pathetic and afraid, so they would be predisposed to pray frantically (providing food for the gods). They canonically are more delicious to the soul-and-will eating abominations that are trying to destroy reality.

And the kicker is that this is a world where reincarnation is a provable fact, so even when you die, you either go to the like-the-world-of-the-living-but-worse underworld forever as a ghost, or you get to come back and try again.

BWR
2017-07-15, 10:23 AM
Legend of the Five Rings? It's a terrible dystopia, and Hell On Earth is a short walk to the south.


Only dystopic if you play a peasant. The normal game in no way plays like a dystopia. The exceptions to this rule are:
1. The Steel Chrystathemum. Rokugan's own Caligula. An entitled sociopathic brat who is emperor. Much samurai drama for trying to figure out how much abuse you can take from a horrible lord before rebelling.
2. The Thousand Years of Darkness. On the Second Day of Thunder, Fu Leng (the BBEG) won. Now starts the reign of terror with an evil god on the throne and the PCs (probably) taking the role of the resistance. A settign where survival is a force more powerful than honor, much to the dismay of the honorable.

napoleon_in_rag
2017-07-15, 12:28 PM
Hi Playground

I find myself wanting to run a game in an oppressive setting. I read Midnight (FF's 3rd edition D&D setting) a while back. I'm not necessarily looking for fantasy though, just any setting where the world is by it's very nature oppressive to the players. I'm thinking of PC games like Wolfenstein or Homefront, or maybe a setting like Falling Skies or XCOM-2 (earth after Aliens have taken over). Zombies would work, but we've done that before. A real daily struggle for survival.

So, does anyone have any recommendations?

Cheers!



GURPS Fallout - What the video games are based on. http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Vault_13:_A_GURPS_Post-Nuclear_Adventure
Dark Sun for D&D http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Vault_13:_A_GURPS_Post-Nuclear_Adventure
Traveller For a Space Opera, just make it grittier with really harsh planets and realistic damage. Your spacesuit gets breached, you die. Radiation storm? you mutate. Out of fuel? you slowly freeze to death.

Arbane
2017-07-15, 01:05 PM
Only dystopic if you play a peasant. The normal game in no way plays like a dystopia.

It's still a dystopia, the PCs just happen to be part of the enforcer caste. And there's a lot of really stupid social strictures, and a lot of gaping flaws in Rokugan society that We Just Don't Talk About. I'd argue it qualifies. (I will freely admit I'm not a fan, though I did enjoy the card-game back in The Day.)

VoxRationis
2017-07-15, 07:56 PM
@Arbane: I'd argue that the dystopia seems a lot less oppressive if you're the enforcer caste. I'd be interested in hearing your take on L5R, though. I've only played a couple sessions of the RPG version.

Arbane
2017-07-15, 10:54 PM
@Arbane: I'd argue that the dystopia seems a lot less oppressive if you're the enforcer caste. I'd be interested in hearing your take on L5R, though. I've only played a couple sessions of the RPG version.

I haven't read any of the books in 10+ years, so some of this might be inaccurate.

Well, it's a feudal society with a rigid caste system, a lot of ultra-formal social strictures characters are expected to adhere to ON PAIN OF DEATH, and IIRC, samurai are legally allowed to kill peasants for any reason they feel like. (Which is historically accurate, but awful.)

I vaguely remember one version of L5R had a map that 'everyone' knew had all the distances wrong by a factor of 10 or so, but it was approved by the Emperor, so everyone had to make us excuses why traveling everywhere took so long. This struck me as something straight out of Paranoia.

And like I said, they've got Mordor++ on their south border, maho-users everywhere, and the Scorpion Clan. Not to mention ninja that are actually The Thing From Another World, their very own brainwashing Illuminati....

Like I said, not a big fan of the setting.

raygun goth
2017-07-15, 11:49 PM
Legend of the Five Rings is oppressive even if you're in the oppressor caste.

In Rokugan, the nail that sticks up gets hammered down. You can't invent anything new or you will get slapped down. You can't innovate any systems or you will get slapped down. You can't attempt to overcome your ancestors' accomplishments or you will get slapped down. It is relentlessly conservative to the point that technology and society haven't changed for thousands of years - several clans have been literally erased from history, entire centuries have been removed, had their books burned, and the calendars altered to keep up the charade, and culture, society, and technology basically haven't changed in all that time. This is a culture where they believe that aiming a bow using your eyes causes you to miss, where basically one person is in charge of what clothing is acceptable to everyone in the country, where actually falling in love with someone is a danger to yourself and your immediate family, and where no less than three culture-enforcing groups of secret police comprise half the criminal underworld (protip: they all like to murder people and cross their names out of Imperial records for the lulz). If you do not shut up, fly straight, and serve only as a mindless extension of your daimyo's will, they will shuffle you away someplace and pretend you don't exist until you either get tired of the game and retire or choose to buckle.

Shadowrun also works, but for different reasons.

In Shadowrun, the ultra-conservative libertarians have basically won, and instead of political governments, there are corporate oligarchies. Companies with international facilities have the same rights as political governments, and they've been bogarting all the money and resources for the last few decades, choking sovereign nations and turning vast stretches of rural areas of even first-world countries into shanty towns and trying to suck everyone up into the cities. The oceans are nearly dead, and they grow genetically modified krill in huge automated silos. Oh, yeah, automation has continued to improve and now basically any job that doesn't require an education is done by machine, but wages haven't kept up to match, meaning there are basically three castes: the employed, the destitute, and the wealthy. If you get fired, you will never get another job. If you are employed, you live where the company tells you, eat what the company tells you, spend your money where the company ells you, and get accounts on company approved websites. There is no net neutrality. Data is so precious that coders and hackers launch their own satellites to hide data and websites from prying corporate hands or bury them deep underground and pay-to-play access the data havens. Companies allow what websites they want on their property or through their services. The wealth disparity is so great that it makes modern disparity look like amateur hour - ten people each own one-tenth of the planet, not just the land, but the resources and the people.

And that's not even getting into how horrible life is if you're a troll in a world made for normal-sized humans (http://orig05.deviantart.net/3a85/f/2017/196/2/1/shadowrunstuff_by_raygun_goth_d9sakr9_by_mr_author-dbghenx.jpg).

The Cryptomancer RPG has a rule for how aware the setting/the ruling class of cryptomancers are of your actions, and it can never go down. Once it reaches its peak, you all die.

Demon: the Descent is about hiding from the laws of reality itself, because math is sentient, hates you, and wants you to come back to the fold so you can be scrubbed of your free will.

Also, if you can find War Against the Chtorr and Reign of Steel for GURPS, those are... harsh.

BWR
2017-07-16, 12:11 AM
It's still a dystopia, the PCs just happen to be part of the enforcer caste. And there's a lot of really stupid social strictures, and a lot of gaping flaws in Rokugan society that We Just Don't Talk About. I'd argue it qualifies. (I will freely admit I'm not a fan, though I did enjoy the card-game back in The Day.)

1. Since you play as the 'enforcer' caste, you don't play the game as dystopic. Frankly, you can call most any society in any RPG setting dystopic if it's 'a place that's unfair'.

2. 'Really stupid social strictures', eh? You mean like every setting with a detailed world or real life society ever?

3. Which gaping flaws would these be?




I haven't read any of the books in 10+ years, so some of this might be inaccurate.

Well, it's a feudal society with a rigid caste system, a lot of ultra-formal social strictures characters are expected to adhere to ON PAIN OF DEATH,
Grossly inaccurate. Very few gaffes require suicide. Mostly some shame or demotion is involved.


IIRC, samurai are legally allowed to kill peasants for any reason they feel like. (Which is historically accurate, but awful.)


Sort of. Peasants don't have much legal protection but without good cause, killing them is frowned upon and generally considered vandalism, which entails punishment. Of course, what is considered good cause varies. Lots of people and certain clans see it as the duty of the samurai to protect the lower castes and that includes not abusing them. Plus not every samurai is a murdering ********.



I vaguely remember one version of L5R had a map that 'everyone' knew had all the distances wrong by a factor of 10 or so, but it was approved by the Emperor, so everyone had to make us excuses why traveling everywhere took so long. This struck me as something straight out of Paranoia.

Inaccurate. The official maps are off, but not by a factor of 10. Everyone knows this and everyone uses the most accurate maps unofficially while claiming to adhere to the official ones in situations where they have to be seen.



And like I said, they've got Mordor++ on their south border, maho-users everywhere, and the Scorpion Clan. Not to mention ninja that are actually The Thing From Another World, their very own brainwashing Illuminati....

These things are bad? To each their own, I guess.



Legend of the Five Rings is oppressive even if you're in the oppressor caste.


Not necessarily wrong but inaccurate to varying degrees.




In Rokugan, the nail that sticks up gets hammered down.

In the sense that anybody in any society that acts beyond the boundaries of societal expectation will be looked askance at. The setting is rife with people who do break with tradition in various ways and are still admired for their exploits.




You can't invent anything new or you will get slapped down. You can't innovate any systems or you will get slapped down. It is relentlessly conservative to the point that technology and society haven't changed for thousands of years

Mostly true, but not entirely. Refinements and small improvements happen all the time, and as for the lack of major technological or societal development, well, this is a fantasy world we are talking about; it has plenty of company in that regard.
1200 years, not thousands. And there have been changes during this time.




You can't attempt to overcome your ancestors' accomplishments or you will get slapped down.

Patently false. There are plenty of people who are considered 'the greatest of all time [so far]' that have a long line of ancestors before them. No one considers every single Crab Champion to come before Kuon as being inherently better than him because of seniority.
You must respect your ancestors and predecessors and there is a strong element of ancestor worship in the setting, which gives people a lot to live up to, but if you can perform deeds greater than those of your ancestors, then good on you.




- several clans have been literally erased from history, entire centuries have been removed, had their books burned, and the calendars altered to keep up the charade


Erased, meaning what? Been destroyed, then yes. **** happens. Just like kingdoms and other political units in any setting (or the real world) change or die. People write histories favorable to those in power and get rid of unwanted stuff. People insist on sticking to less accurate and useful standards of measurement instead of better ones. Like any of that stuff never happens anywhere but Rokugan *coughcoughImperialSystemcoughcough*





This is a culture where they believe that aiming a bow using your eyes causes you to miss,


Not exactly. And it's a fantasy world where the Rokugani way of archery actually works. Might as well complain that certain other settings allow you to punch through a mountain because you scream loud enough, or that magic exists there.




, where basically one person is in charge of what clothing is acceptable to everyone in the country


And who would this be? Answer: no one person. Like any setting you will have people who have more political and social power, and their whims tend to direct what everyone else does, which includes fashion. I wonder where I've seen this before...





where actually falling in love with someone is a danger to yourself and your immediate family


You are grossly misrepresenting something important here. Rokugan in an idealized feudal system where devotion to your lord is of paramount importance, and the concept of duty (to your lord primarily, but also to your family and society as a whole) is one of the pillars of their ethical system. When people fall in love they are inclined to put the object of their affections above other people, including their lords. When loving someone does not interfere with your duty, then it isn't a problem. When you get into situations where the two conflict, it is. Love vs. duty is a constant source of samurai drama and a significant element for many games. Rokugani history is full of cases of how people loving someone do stupid stuff that ruins not only their own lives but the lives of others. To best serve your lord and be an honorable person, it is best to not fall in love because then you do not have that very strong temptation to fail in your duty.





and where no less than three culture-enforcing groups of secret police comprise half the criminal underworld (protip: they all like to murder people and cross their names out of Imperial records for the lulz). If you do not shut up, fly straight, and serve only as a mindless extension of your daimyo's will, they will shuffle you away someplace and pretend you don't exist until you either get tired of the game and retire or choose to buckle.


And which three would these be? One of them being the Scorpion, I guess. They are not culture enforcing, they are the ones whose job it is to root out conspiracies and internal threats to the Emperor and Empire in general. This is generally accepted as a necessary and OK job in most settings. I'll answer that question myself: there aren't any Empire-wide covert organizations that function as thought police.

Again, you are getting things wrong. People are people and Rokugan knows this. They don't expect mindless obedience more than most strictly hierarchical system. They expect obedience and loyalty, and they expect sacrifices to be made in the name of your lord. Mindless obedience is only a good thing if your subordinate has no mind to speak of. Any vassal who shows intelligence, competence and initiative in addition to loyalty is highly prized. If someone can fulfill his duty to his lord in a way that pleases her, that individual can have quite a lot of freedom for creatively interpreting orders. For instance you have the case of Doji Reju who managed to loyally serve two different lords in two different clans (complicated backstory) while not dishonoring either. That kind of stuff is admired in Rokugan, though rarely encouraged if for no other reason than it can so easily fail and cause a real mess - better to stick to the normal ways that have a higher chance of succeeding.

People are allowed to relax. Entertainment is a big deal in Rokugan and some of social norms are relaxed when in private gatherings or in certain areas, like geisha houses. The very strict and formal behavioral rules are mostly for on-the-job situations. In court and in public people expect certain forms of behavior. While the details of the behavior vary, the fact that there are such expectations is universal, in every setting and in real life. You don't want someone to act disgracefully because they shame not only themselves but their family and clan. Group identity is a lot stronger in Rokugan than we are used to in the West IRL and pride in the group's accomplishments are shame for their failings is a very real thing to Rokugani. If you think having [insert politician you don't like] is embarrassing for your country, magnify that feeling by a hundred for Rokugan.

No one is saying you have to like L5R, but get your facts straight and don't distort things, please.

JustIgnoreMe
2017-07-16, 08:32 AM
Seconding War Against the Chtorr and Reign of Steel. GURPS OGRE is worth a look too.

Faily
2017-07-16, 09:29 AM
Just to follow up on BWR's responses here:


Well, it's a feudal society with a rigid caste system, a lot of ultra-formal social strictures characters are expected to adhere to ON PAIN OF DEATH

Inaccurate. Even all the way back to 1st edition's GM's Survival Guide up to 4th Edition's Corebook and Emerald Empire, samurai aren't expected to die over every little mistake. As the source-material points out, raising and training a samurai is a *very* expensive investment, and while your lord can be a bloody idiot and demand your life over a stupid little thing, most won't throw away a valuable asset over small mistakes.



IIRC, samurai are legally allowed to kill peasants for any reason they feel like. (Which is historically accurate, but awful.)

Can, and yes, it's historically accurate... but peasants are considered useful tools who fulfill a vital role in society and killing one can lead to minor punishement (brief house arrest or minor fine). Killing peasants for no good reason is usually treated as vandalism, at best, and if done in another clan's territory, it can lead to potential problems.


Not to mention ninja that are actually The Thing From Another World, their very own brainwashing Illuminati....

Not all ninja are part of the Lying Darkness (that was a small sub-group of Scorpion ninja). Calling Kolat Illuminati... eh, bit of a stretch, I'd say. They've certainly had their ups and downs in how powerful and influental they are, but they're not exactly the "true world order" or anything.



You can't invent anything new or you will get slapped down. You can't innovate any systems or you will get slapped down. It is relentlessly conservative to the point that technology and society haven't changed for thousands of years

Except Rokugani society isn't even thousands of years old...? :P
True, Rokugan develops very slowly, but it's not even by far the biggest sinner in fantasy-worlds that have remained unchanged for generations. And there has been change, albeit slow:
- Adopting the Koku as a currency in 243, officially moving on to using a representative currency. While it's worth is variable as it is linked to a year's harvest, it is still a change that happened.
- Multi-element magic, introcuded in the 1100s, which went against all the previously established theories on how the elements and the kami worked.
- Gunpowder. While illegal (though allowed to be used for simple things like fireworks), it was still used, most notably by the Crane, Tortoise and Mantis. IIRC, the Tortoise and Mantis also had cannons because of gunpowder, though it's not something they used against other Rokugani considering it would be an Imperial crime to be caught doing it.
- Proper saddle with stirrups, courtesy of the Unicorn (from the Ujik-Hai who joined them during their Exodus).
- Clockwork mechanics (Way of the Crab).



You can't attempt to overcome your ancestors' accomplishments or you will get slapped down.

LOL you're kidding, right?
So you're saying that all the noteworthy heroes and progressive people in Rokugan (the Thunders, Toku, Osano-Wo, Daidoji Masashige, Akodo Ginawa, Hida Kuon, Bayushi Paneki, Bayushi Yojiro, Kuni Tokaji, Shiba Tsukimi, and the list goes on) are disapproved of, because they were awesome and became legends?



several clans have been literally erased from history, entire centuries have been removed, had their books burned, and the calendars altered to keep up the charade

No, no, no, and no.
"Several" clans have been wiped out; the Boar and the Snake. They're not erased from history. The story of the Boar is known, because they're the only minor clan to have had an Imperial Decree to end them. The Snake are also known, and their extermination is referred to as The Five Nights of Shame by historians.
For the sake of completeness, we can include the Scorpion on this list, but they were only disbanded by Imperial decree and later exiled. Not wiped out.
Entire centuries removed? ... Ok, please state your sources on this because I am *not* familiar with this at all. If you're referring to things like the Great Famine in Imperial Histories, do note that those were player-created content that won a competition hosted by AEG that would print the winners in Imperial Histories and it is mostly not considered canon, but even if we were to include it for the sake of completeness here, it's still not even an entire century!
The only book-burning that tends to happen in Rokugan is heretical (Kolat) or illegal (maho) works, and even those tend to be snatched up (by Scorpion, Crab and Phoenix, most of the time) rather than destroyed. If anything, Rokugan could probably stand to do a bit more burning of dangerous knowledge and artifacts, seeing how often these things go astray when stashed away for "study". ;)
As for calendars being altered to "keep up the charade", not really... most of it stems from conflicting source materials (like the Way of-books) and continuity-snafus in the earlier days of the game's history. Thanks to the work of people like Fred Wan and the Story Teams in later years, such mistakes were mostly fixed in more recent editions. In-setting, dates, names and other details surrounding great events varies depending on who you ask as the clans have different records and/or views of what happened. Like we've never seen that in the real world. :P
I suppose you could argue that "centuries" have been removed when you factor in the Naga and the non-human kingdoms that existed before mankind, but keep in mind that there were no records of them prior to the Tribes of Isawa (who were the first to begin recording and writing down events), and their history was not really discovered until much later.



where actually falling in love with someone is a danger to yourself and your immediate family

Wait, what?
Oh well, someone better stop worshipping Benten then! Considering she is one of the Seven MOST MAJOR gods to be worshipped in Rokugan, being the Fortune of ROMANTIC LOVE!
No, seriously, falling in love is not a danger to yourself or your immediate family. As stated in the various Corebooks, Emerald Empire, and Sword & Fan, love is, as in many other cultures and settings, something to be cherished. There are countless plays, stories, poems and songs dedicated to love. Rokugan is *full* of romantic love for both historical figures and fictional ones.
Romantic love is idolized and worshipped, but Desire is considered a Sin. Desire is more than just love, however, but it is one of its most common forms. And it is considered one of the three Great Sins, because Desire is something that causes you to act foolish, reckless, and forget your place as a samurai (which is someone who serves).
Just remember that Rokugan is a setting that values discretion and privacy, and to loudly proclaim your love for someone is considered vulgar and inappropriate.
Also keep in mind that from a narrative point of view, as often seen in samurai drama, having to choose between your loved one(s) and duty to your lord is a big driving point for the Bushido vs. What Is Right-storytelling that L5R often strives for.



and where no less than three culture-enforcing groups of secret police comprise half the criminal underworld (protip: they all like to murder people and cross their names out of Imperial records for the lulz). If you do not shut up, fly straight, and serve only as a mindless extension of your daimyo's will, they will shuffle you away someplace and pretend you don't exist until you either get tired of the game and retire or choose to buckle.

...
Ok, the Scorpion Clan are pretty much the secret police, but who are these other "culture-enforcing groups"? The Dai Li? :P
And no, the Kolat aren't a culture-enforcing group, considering how their end-goal is to *overthrow* the current culture/society.



---

Sure, people can play L5R differently at their table, and trust me I've heard horror stories of what goes on with some settings, but those belong more in "crazy things my GM did" rather than "this setting is bad because of [crazy things my GM did]". Not saying people have to like L5R (I happen to like it very much myself, but I know it's not for everyone), but at least argue correctly on its faults rather than saying things that are simply not true, please. Distorting facts or falsehoods doesn't contribute anything.

Arbane
2017-07-16, 10:59 AM
Unhallowed Metropolis had a pretty grim setting - a besieged, monster-infested Victorian London.

I can't recommend Cthulhutech in good conscience (bad rules, rape, railroading, blatant anime ripoffs and some of those anime are hentai), but 'Earth is being invaded by Lovecraftian aliens, and is losing' is pretty oppressive.

raygun goth
2017-07-16, 01:35 PM
There's a forest here and y'all are asking me which specific tree is the forest I keep talking about. That's a pretty hefty task.

There are no methods, period, by which a PC can affect any kind of cultural change to the way Rokugan works. Don't give me the names of NPC greats or give me meta reasons for things like the Great Famine - the point is that they struck it from their records completely and changed the calendars to match.

That would be like the United States collectively cutting out 1955 to 1975 and resetting the calendar to 1955 because of the horrible debacles that happened in those years. I don't know how that can't be seen as oppressive.

You want meta reasons for things? Ok. There is no way, through normal play, a PC can ever reach the same ability of any of the setting's wunderkind. The culture and mechanics themselves turn and punch the hell out of you if you even try. The disparity between players and the "cool" people in all the histories is magnitudes of impossible-to-reach XP levels. You, as a PC, will never change anything. It's a poo-poosack setting that doesn't offer you the chance to change it (as the books read, mind you).

One of the questions in the character development section is "how will you die?" and it is one of the most important questions on that track.

If you read through the histories, you will note that history is full of Crab A coming to the court to ask for food, weapons, or men, the rest of the country laughing at them, then a Shadowlands invasion happening, and then, less than two or three decades later, the whole thing repeats. It. Never. Changes.

As for culture-enforcing secret police, yes, that is a thing the Scorpion do, constantly. So does the Otomo, the Tortoise clan, the Crane, and technically also the Kuni (who hunt for blasphemies).

Yes, basically one guy decides what is essentially uniforms - the Crane clan daimyo. The clan is literally in charge of what Rokugani culture is every year. They can break and ruin someone for wearing the wrong thing to Winter Court.

Really, the most dangerous thing the setting gives you, as a player and a character, is hope - much like how there is a Fortune of Romantic Love, the histories give you hope that perhaps, if you work hard enough and live a true, faithful Rokugani life, you will be rewarded with a spouse (that, mind you, your family has chosen for you) that you actually love, a name that history will remember, and a place among the gods, or a higher station in the next life. Not like it matters, you won't remember anyway.

You can always play it differently, mind you, but at its base, it is a highly conservative setting with some very nasty moral values that it does not expect PCs to attempt to alter.

Also, as a side note, I have to say that the Lying Darkness is pretty much the best villain for the setting as a whole, because it takes all of the garbage that you have to deal with on a daily basis and promises to take away all the regret and pain of having to live with a free mind in an unforgiving culture, while all it costs is the removal of the most important and powerful thing you have as a samurai - your name.

BWR
2017-07-16, 06:06 PM
There are no methods, period, by which a PC can affect any kind of cultural change to the way Rokugan works. Don't give me the names of NPC greats or give me meta reasons for things like the Great Famine - the point is that they struck it from their records completely and changed the calendars to match.

You mean like they can in any other RPG setting? Like how any player at my table can somehow change what WotCF decides to do in FR or Greyhawk. Fun fact, no PCs can ever canonincally change an RPG setting, and L5R with it's player win storylines is the closest thing you can get now. Around the table you can do whatever the **** you want. Honestly, what are you trying to say here?


- the point is that they struck it from their records completely and changed the calendars to match.

That would be like the United States collectively cutting out 1955 to 1975 and resetting the calendar to 1955 because of the horrible debacles that happened in those years. I don't know how that can't be seen as oppressive.

No the Great Famine is not a canonical event, is is presented as an example of what you can add to a game to fill out the 'empty' ears in history and give it a reason to exist. RTFM



You want meta reasons for things? Ok. There is no way, through normal play, a PC can ever reach the same ability of any of the setting's wunderkind. The culture and mechanics themselves turn and punch the hell out of you if you even try. The disparity between players and the "cool" people in all the histories is magnitudes of impossible-to-reach XP levels. You, as a PC, will never change anything. It's a poo-poosack setting that doesn't offer you the chance to change it (as the books read, mind you)..

What the hell are you talking about? There is nothing in the books, flavor of mechanics that says you can't be as awesome as canon characters. There is literally nothing saying or even vaguely hinting at this.





If you read through the histories, you will note that history is full of Crab A coming to the court to ask for food, weapons, or men, the rest of the country laughing at them, then a Shadowlands invasion happening, and then, less than two or three decades later, the whole thing repeats. It. Never. Changes.

Yes, Rokugan is resistant to change, but changes have occurred. We gave you plenty of examples. You want more, we can provide them. Or you could just read the ****ing literature. Just to take a recent example, the Destroyer War. If your complaint is that the setting is resistant to change, well so is basically every other setting. Do you hate those as well?




As for culture-enforcing secret police, yes, that is a thing the Scorpion do, constantly. So does the Otomo, the Tortoise clan, the Crane, and technically also the Kuni (who hunt for blasphemies).
.

This is not culture policing, and you bloody well know it. Don't try to pass it off as such. The Scorpion are there to root out conspiracies that threaten the Empire (and make a few themselves), not make sure everyone dresses correctly. The Otomo are not secret police they are politicians with an vested interest in the status quo. You know, like any other political entity with a long history of being in power. The Kuni hunt literal soul-sucking demons and people who will forever damn your soul to hell with black magic. Please tell me how this is the same as making sure you bowed deeply enough to daimyo Doji Dimwit?
The Tortoise? The Tortoise are the empire's spies abroad to keep track of foreign affairs and report directly to the Emperor. They have nothing, literally nothing to do with internal affairs and literally nothing to do with making sure people act like proper Rokugani.

Is your complaint really that the setting is resistant to change? Well so is basically every other setting. Do you hate those as well for this fact?




Yes, basically one guy decides what is essentially uniforms - the Crane clan daimyo. The clan is literally in charge of what Rokugani culture is every year. They can break and ruin someone for wearing the wrong thing to Winter Court.

Unless you are one of those annoying people who use 'literally' when you should use 'figuratively' or 'virtually', then no. They do nothing of the sort. Their power is not enshrined in law, nor in the rules of the game. They are the beautiful popular rich kid in school written large. They cannot by law force you to obey but they can ruin your reputation by turning everyone else against you. You are complaining about people in power having what you consider unfair influence. That's your business but hardly unique to Rokugan.






Really, the most dangerous thing the setting gives you, as a player and a character, is hope - much like how there is a Fortune of Romantic Love, the histories give you hope that perhaps, if you work hard enough and live a true, faithful Rokugani life, you will be rewarded with a spouse (that, mind you, your family has chosen for you) that you actually love, a name that history will remember, and a place among the gods, or a higher station in the next life. Not like it matters, you won't remember anyway.

You can always play it differently, mind you, but at its base, it is a highly conservative setting with some very nasty moral values that it does not expect PCs to attempt to alter.


What on earth are you blathering about now? I honestly cannot get the point of this complaint. Are you really trying to tell me that players do not remember the characters they play if the game happens to be L5R? Because that is what it seems like your are saying here.

You seem to have understood that Rokugan is very conservative, very unfair and has some ethics that most of us modern day westerners find problematic. Congratulations, you have understood something that is spelt out clearly in the books. You don't seem to like that, and fine, whatever, no one is saying you have to. You just seem to be unable to put aside your real world beliefs and roleplay an actual Rokugani person, and act like this makes it a terrible game.




Also, as a side note, I have to say that the Lying Darkness is pretty much the best villain for the setting as a whole, because it takes all of the garbage that you have to deal with on a daily basis and promises to take away all the regret and pain of having to live with a free mind in an unforgiving culture, while all it costs is the removal of the most important and powerful thing you have as a samurai - your name.

Dude, we get it, you don't like Rokugan. Fine. I repeat, no one is asking you to. But please, stop making **** up, stop twisting stuff in the game to stuff it isn't to make it even more horrible to fit your need to have it be bad. We can keep this going, if you wish. We can reduce this whole mess to actual quotes from sources if you want, but you will find that we have our **** together.

icefractal
2017-07-16, 07:03 PM
Torchbearer's setting isn't particularly oppressive, but life for the PCs is; you have to struggle pretty hard just to say alive and healthy, much less get ahead.

CharonsHelper
2017-07-16, 08:02 PM
Frankly - there are a lot of settings which can be made oppressive pretty easily.

Standard modern day secret fantasy? Make the PCs have supernatural powers. Instead of being super special snowflakes - that makes them a feared underclass which the government secretly controls in really dark creepy ways.

Any sort of points of light fantasy world can be creepy pretty easily.

Sci-fi can be dark pretty easily if you focus upon the darkness of space sort of stuff.

etc.

Wraith
2017-07-17, 07:58 AM
When it comes to oppressive, or simply outright dystopian settings, I always like to advocate SLA Industries. It's one of the first RPGs that I ever learned and played extensively, so I admit bias, but it has a lot to offer.

You live in a "Mega-City"; a metropolis built atop the crumbling ruins of the former civilisation, walled off from the polluted, mutant-ridden wasteland beyond. The whole solar system is owned by the titular SLA Industries, a megacorporation run by the seemingly-immortal and utterly ruthless Mr. Slayer. It rains 364 days of the year. Unemployment is at an all time low of just 85%. There are 5,000 channels on the TV, all of which are flooded with 24 hour rolling news of SLA Industries Operatives fighting with agents of rival companies, or hourly updates on the serial killer epidemic that has been rooted in the city for decades (some of the more high-profile ones even have their own fanclubs and merchandise lines).

That's all to say nothing of the Ex-War Criminals who, utterly unsolvable from their PTSD on the War Worlds, have simply been released into the ruins to continue fighting whatever battles their broken minds can create. Or the Manchines - hideous cybernetic soldiers wrought insane from faulty programming and whose only goal is to harvest enough flesh from their victims to continue functioning for another 500 years. Or that everyone you meet just might have a camera implanted into their brain and looking through their eyes, so that everything they see and hear is reported directly to Mr.Slayer's shadowy enforcers, the Dark Hunters....

And of course, it'd be remiss of me not to mention SLA Industries' predecessor, the original Cyberpunk 2025, which has all the dystopia and Big Brother-style oppression with played less tongue-in-cheek than SLA's sarcastic materialism commentary.

mister__joshua
2017-07-17, 08:53 AM
Thanks for all the responses and suggestions!

I have the new Paranoia already and plan to play it soon, but don't really see it as being a long-term game for us. More likely just a few weeks.

We're currently playing Deadlands and really enjoying it, and I've started reading through Hell on Earth but not sure I like it as much.

We've played Shadowrun and Cyberpunk for years, so I'm well-versed in those settings.

Of the ones mentioned I think Cryptomancer and Unhallowed Metropolis both look interesting. Durance sounds perfect for what I'm after, but I was after a more traditional GM-led game, thanks.

Knaight
2017-07-18, 11:19 AM
You mean like they can in any other RPG setting? Like how any player at my table can somehow change what WotCF decides to do in FR or Greyhawk. Fun fact, no PCs can ever canonincally change an RPG setting, and L5R with it's player win storylines is the closest thing you can get now. Around the table you can do whatever the **** you want. Honestly, what are you trying to say here?

This is irrelevant. Nobody is talking about changing the setting at the level of affecting what gets published - what's being talked about is how the setting is initially set up, how the characters are placed in that initial setting, and what the implications of that are for the characters changing the setting in the context of a home game. Rokugan has a lot of deeply entrenched institutions, several of which are essentially organizations that actively hunt down anyone who threatens to change them. Meanwhile the PCs in L5R are relatively low ranking (though several steps up from the bottom of the social strata), and aren't the people running these deeply entrenched institutions who could actually effect change. Personally, I like that about Rokugan - it fits with the other themes of the game well - but it's absolutely there.

As examples of settings that go in a different direction, I'll point towards REIGN and Warbirds. REIGN has a fairly detailed default setting, but it doesn't have the same level of deeply entrenched institutions. There's an old empire, but they're a shadow of their former selves and several territories have broken off completely already. Most of the other significant nations are younger up and comers, the borders are all sorts of unstable, and the status quo is just generally precarious. The PCs are then assumed to be people with an institutional backing, and the rules explicitly have rules for large scale conflicts between organizations that can be affected by individual heroic action, letting the PC's organization punch above its weight. The cultures are also set in conflict, where new institutions pose credible threats to old ones, and the status quo is an uneasy equilibrium easily tipped, with large reserves of people ready to get behind major social changes if a strong enough leader starts pushing them. Warbirds takes a different tack, where the entire setting is effectively really new and there just hasn't been enough time for it to ossify. It's set in the Carribean, after the Carribean islands were transported by a storm to the eye of a gas giant in the 1800's, becoming floating islands and not land masses above the ocean. You've got the colonial powers entirely stripped away, contact between the islands cut, a drastic change in climate for most of the islands, and the island of Cuba broken in two, and this is less than a hundred years before the setting present. People are adapting to a new and alien world, cultures are drifting apart, and technology continues to improve, pushed in a different direction by the sudden change in circumstance. Then the islands reconnect, and that's a whole new upheaval, even closer to the setting present. The PCs meanwhile are members of a mercenary guild of ace pilots, who also have the benefit of planes a solid decade ahead of everyone else. They're being brought into active conflicts, and it is downright expected that things will change in the setting. On top of that is the Go Gonzo chapter, which has rules for PCs doing mad science and changing the world that way.

I also like both of these settings a great deal, and as with Rokugan the extent to which the settings are resistant to change fits the themes of the setting, with the fit in this case induced by how incredibly unstable and precarious everything is.

Lord Torath
2017-07-18, 12:30 PM
This is irrelevant. Nobody is talking about changing the setting at the level of affecting what gets published - what's being talked about is how the setting is initially set up, how the characters are placed in that initial setting, and what the implications of that are for the characters changing the setting in the context of a home game. Rokugan has a lot of deeply entrenched institutions, several of which are essentially organizations that actively hunt down anyone who threatens to change them. Meanwhile the PCs in L5R are relatively low ranking (though several steps up from the bottom of the social strata), and aren't the people running these deeply entrenched institutions who could actually effect change. Personally, I like that about Rokugan - it fits with the other themes of the game well - but it's absolutely there.

As examples of settings that go in a different direction, I'll point towards REIGN and Warbirds. REIGN has a fairly detailed default setting, but it doesn't have the same level of deeply entrenched institutions. There's an old empire, but they're a shadow of their former selves and several territories have broken off completely already. Most of the other significant nations are younger up and comers, the borders are all sorts of unstable, and the status quo is just generally precarious. The PCs are then assumed to be people with an institutional backing, and the rules explicitly have rules for large scale conflicts between organizations that can be affected by individual heroic action, letting the PC's organization punch above its weight. The cultures are also set in conflict, where new institutions pose credible threats to old ones, and the status quo is an uneasy equilibrium easily tipped, with large reserves of people ready to get behind major social changes if a strong enough leader starts pushing them. Warbirds takes a different tack, where the entire setting is effectively really new and there just hasn't been enough time for it to ossify. It's set in the Carribean, after the Carribean islands were transported by a storm to the eye of a gas giant in the 1800's, becoming floating islands and not land masses above the ocean. You've got the colonial powers entirely stripped away, contact between the islands cut, a drastic change in climate for most of the islands, and the island of Cuba broken in two, and this is less than a hundred years before the setting present. People are adapting to a new and alien world, cultures are drifting apart, and technology continues to improve, pushed in a different direction by the sudden change in circumstance. Then the islands reconnect, and that's a whole new upheaval, even closer to the setting present. The PCs meanwhile are members of a mercenary guild of ace pilots, who also have the benefit of planes a solid decade ahead of everyone else. They're being brought into active conflicts, and it is downright expected that things will change in the setting. On top of that is the Go Gonzo chapter, which has rules for PCs doing mad science and changing the world that way.

I also like both of these settings a great deal, and as with Rokugan the extent to which the settings are resistant to change fits the themes of the setting, with the fit in this case induced by how incredibly unstable and precarious everything is.In this respect, Dark Sun is not that oppressive, at least as detailed before the Revised Boxed Set. It was set up so you couldn't level up "quietly". The very act of leveling up brought you to the attention of the other powerful people in the region. The intent was that the player characters would drastically change the setting as they grew in power. The Prism Pentad heroes sort of stole much of the PCs' thunder, though (which is why I advise treating that story as an example of how a campaign could progress, rather than the actual history of the setting).

BWR
2017-07-19, 11:01 AM
This is irrelevant. Nobody is talking about changing the setting at the level of affecting what gets published - what's being talked about is how the setting is initially set up, how the characters are placed in that initial setting, and what the implications of that are for the characters changing the setting in the context of a home game. Rokugan has a lot of deeply entrenched institutions, several of which are essentially organizations that actively hunt down anyone who threatens to change them. Meanwhile the PCs in L5R are relatively low ranking (though several steps up from the bottom of the social strata), and aren't the people running these deeply entrenched institutions who could actually effect change. Personally, I like that about Rokugan - it fits with the other themes of the game well - but it's absolutely there.


But you can say the same about almost any setting published setting. How often are PCs allowed to topple established kingdoms, radically change culture or alter history in, say, the Forgotten Realms? Aren't most beginning level characters in pretty much any D&D setting about as low as you can get without being a farmer? If anything L5R lets you start significantly more politically and socially powerful than most other settings that come to mind. Yes, Rokugan is resistant to change in its base state but the amount of change possible in any game is left entirely up to the GM. Most GMs don't allow players to radically change things because they and the players prefer the setting more or less as is, but this doesn't mean it can't be done, even fairly easily while remaining mostly true to the setting. Fairly radical changes have occurred in Rokugan's history and there is nothing saying that PCs can't make their own mark.

The biggest difference between Rokugan and most other settings I can think of is that the PCs are expected to be part of a society, part of something larger than themselves and players can't expect to be left mostly to their own devices except for 'cutscenes'. In this respect, yes, it can be hard to get things done, but it is perfectly possible.

VoxRationis
2017-07-19, 11:14 AM
@Knaight: I'm inclined to argue that "cannot alter key aspects of the setting by virtue of being a PC" is an unduly broad definition of "oppressive". Frankly, most settings are going to resist that sort of change, and only the leniency of one's GM allows you to overlook that. When you can make those sorts of changes, it's probably because the players have been gifted an opportunity, likely not of their own devising, to make a crucial decision, and that's something that can totally happen in almost any setting if the GM is inclined to make it so. Heck, even Paranoia could be given agency if, say, the adventure plot involves the PCs stumbling on the Computer's main data banks because of a broken panel of drywall in a storage closet.

Knaight
2017-07-19, 12:23 PM
@Knaight: I'm inclined to argue that "cannot alter key aspects of the setting by virtue of being a PC" is an unduly broad definition of "oppressive". Frankly, most settings are going to resist that sort of change, and only the leniency of one's GM allows you to overlook that. When you can make those sorts of changes, it's probably because the players have been gifted an opportunity, likely not of their own devising, to make a crucial decision, and that's something that can totally happen in almost any setting if the GM is inclined to make it so. Heck, even Paranoia could be given agency if, say, the adventure plot involves the PCs stumbling on the Computer's main data banks because of a broken panel of drywall in a storage closet.

I'm not defining it as oppressive, merely commenting that the ability to alter the official published setting isn't what was in contention, and that claiming that the GM can provide an opportunity for change with any setting is something that is technically true but ignores a lot of very pertinent setting details. The resistance varies, with Rokugan fairly far at one end where enacting so much as a tiny culture shift in a small region is opposed by entrenched and powerful institutions, and REIGN's Heluso and Milonda is pretty far towards the other end where the entire setting can be thrown into upheaval. There's things further out, with Paranoia's Alpha Complex making Rokugan look fragile.

Atramentis
2017-07-20, 01:18 PM
Xas Irkalla just launched its Kickstarter today, which is a very dark world, I'd link to it but I'm a new user and don't have enough posts under my belt.

Here's the blurb anyway:

Xas Irkalla is a tabletop role-playing game that offers a hardcore survival horror experience. The world is a desolate land of surreal horror; a planet wounded by psychic warfare, mind-controlled cities, interdimensional labyrinths, and wasteland tribes. You are the alien here; the last survivor of your species. Your existence will have to be earned.