Making use of Flame Blade

[Easy_Lee]

Here's a puzzle: how can we make the spell Flame Blade useful?

Quick reference: the spell requires concentration. It conjures something like a weapon in your hand. The weapon isn't actually a weapon, so extra attack, bonus action, and opportunity attacks don't apply.

You can use your action to make a spell attack with it for 3D6 fire damage. If cast at higher levels, it deals an extra 1D6 damage for every two spell slots above 2nd.

As far as good features, the blade sheds bright light out to 10 feet and dim light out to 20. It's cast as a bonus action and lasts up to 10 minutes.

This is the worst spell I know of. Can it be good? Is there a multiclass or feature we can pick up that makes this thing useful?

Posted about this before, but I'm still perplexed. Every use I can think of for it is DM dependent. For example, while concentrating, you can evoke the blade in your open hand as a bonus action if you let go of it. So maybe, depending on how loosely one defines hand, a druid could shapeshift into some sort of bug, then use flame blade as a bug after landing on someone's neck. Most DMs would probably say you deal 3d6 damage before being swat, then transform back into a druid

[Jacquerel]

It can be a flavourful spell to give to an NPC.

For players? I've found that a good strategy for Flame Blade is that if you don't cast it, you have a spell slot that you can use for something else.

[alchahest]

it's got a niche situation where it's good - it can be juiced up a bit, but not too high, but it lets you basically replace cantrip casting as your turn by turn.

instead of casting a 1D8 or 1D10 or whatever cantrip every turn, you can instead cast this once, and so long as you maintain concentration, make attaks for 3D6. it doesn't scale well, but if you're a particularly melee oriented druid, it can, at the cost of concentration, give you higher damage at low levels.

[Maxilian]

Note: The only class that actually get this spell is Druid

Well... its hard, cause the way it works...

I mean... i think it doesn't work with Warcaster (as you are not casting a spell to do the damage).

Unsure if it work with the Radiant Soul ability of Celestial Warlock

https://media.wizards.com/2017/dnd/downloads/June5UA_RevisedClassOptv1.pdf

But i think it works with the Flame stoker of the Rune Master.

https://media.wizards.com/2015/downloads/dnd/UA_Rune_Magic_Prestige_Class.pdf


It works with the Phoenix Sorcerer lvl 1 ability

https://media.wizards.com/2017/dnd/downloads/26_UASorcererUA020617s.pdf

A Horizon Walker Ranger could apply the lvl 3 ability, letting it do extra damage, and ignoring resistance to fire (that's good cause many mobs have resistance to it)

and then we have the reason why this spell was created.

Druids in Wildshape!

As its a concentration spell, you can, in theory, cast this spell while in human form and use it in your animal form (giving the new form a spell attack).

You could then MC 4 lvl into Horizon Warlker ranger and it would increase its damage and work around the resistance many mobs have against this.

[Maxilian]

it's got a niche situation where it's good - it can be juiced up a bit, but not too high, but it lets you basically replace cantrip casting as your turn by turn.

instead of casting a 1D8 or 1D10 or whatever cantrip every turn, you can instead cast this once, and so long as you maintain concentration, make attaks for 3D6. it doesn't scale well, but if you're a particularly melee oriented druid, it can, at the cost of concentration, give you higher damage at low levels.

The spell is quite good at low lvls, before you get lvl 3 spells (aka. before lvl 5 its pretty decent spell, after that, its becomes meh).

[alchahest]

The spell is quite good at low lvls, before you get lvl 3 spells (aka. before lvl 5 its pretty decent spell, after that, its becomes meh).

exactly, yeah - it has two big problems, the first doesn't always cause issue, and that is that it's melee. the second is that it doesn't scale well. but at those low levels it's a great way to contribute damage close in without expending loads of resources. just.. take warcaster so you pass your con checks when you get hit in melee.

[PeteNutButter]

Agree with the best at low levels folks. At level 3 it only puts out about 3-4 less damage than the sneak attacking rogue.

It works with mounted combatant for advantage, since the feat doesn't specify weapon, just melee attack. It could be fun for a champion/druid crit fishing for a bunch of dice. Totally awful compared to almost any other strategy, but it's making the most of it. The flame blade cavalry is a cool image so there is points there.

A beast master(with the 3 druid levels) could totally share the spell with his pet monkey.

[ad_hoc]

It's really not that bad. There are plenty of spells worse than it. Like Mordenkainen's Sword.

If it wasn't concentration it would be decent for level 3 and 4.

[Temperjoke]

It's got some niche purposes. Once you've conjured it, you can let it disappear and re-evoke it during the duration of the spell using a bonus action. So it's useful if you need your hands during a fight, or if you need to appear disarmed and not casting a spell (like the enemy potentially has someone with Counterspell). It's a magic attack, which druids don't have a lot of low level offensive magic options. I mean, it gets replaced later for sure, but like I said, there are niche uses for it.

[Foxhound438]

instead of casting a 1D8 or 1D10 or whatever cantrip every turn, you can instead cast this once, and so long as you maintain concentration, make attaks for 3D6. it doesn't scale well, but if you're a particularly melee oriented druid, it can, at the cost of concentration, give you higher damage at low levels.

Of course at level 5 you're now throwing 2d8 cantrips, which with a combination of create bonfire and another cantrip is suddenly 4d8 if you can gridlock a thing, suddenly you're outpacing flame blade by a lot without having to spend the slot to do it.

[JellyPooga]

The most important thing to remember about Flame Blade is that it looks....


http://img05.deviantart.net/1288/i/2012/029/1/8/flaming_sword_by_dragonzardman-d4o2nrw.jpg
No wait...wrong picture...
http://orig02.deviantart.net/cdb7/f/2016/129/3/d/flaming_sword_by_meganerid-da1yfyd.jpg

*credit to MeganeRid for the awesome artwork. Link (http://meganerid.deviantart.com/art/Flaming-Sword-607948357)
And to dragonzardman for the photo. Link (https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=flaming+sword&client=ms-android-tmobile-gb&prmd=isvn&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwipsaOn1orVAhVKb1AKHeZyC_QQ_AUICSgB&biw=360&bih=514&dpr=2#imgrc=19lidaE7qIS9EM:).

[Easy_Lee]

Well yeah, that's why I want to find a way to use it effectively. That and I'm stubborn.

[napoleon_in_rag]

You have to take advantage of the elemental effect. Sometimes you have to remind the DM "Hey, I just hit that humanoid with a flameblade. Is he wearing anything that can burn? Did it catch fire?" I would also argue that it burns hotter than a torch and should have a better chance of igniting clothing.

Oil. Use it. My opinion it should lead to a morale check. I mean, if you doused me with gasoline and then ran at me with a burning sword in your hand, I would run like hell.

It makes a good torture device.

But yeah, these are DM dependent and the spell is not as useful at higher levels.

[Steampunkette]

It lasts for 10 minutes. That IS the big wonderful thing about it for a Circle of the Land druid (Or any druid that doesn't constantly wild shape).

While wielding the weapon you can still fling cantrips and other spells. But when you're pushed into Melee you can smack someone with elemental damage for having the temerity to get close to you,, instead of taking disadvantage to ranged attack rolls.

Combine it with Mobility and it allows you a 3d6 fire damage melee attack you can use when pressed by a foe and allow you to disengage without wasting your action. Grab a club or other off-hand weapon and you can use the off-hand to swing at a second foe nearby to ensure you don't get pinned down. Grab Warcaster if you do that, though, and you'll be able to cast with full hands.

Flame Blade is a great spell for a druid who spends most of her time casting spells at range but who wants the ability to deal with enemies getting close.

[Paeleus]

We turned the spells Action into a Bonus Action and bumped the dice down to a d10 (though I argue a d12/2d6 could be more fitting).

This was on an Undying Light warlock/paladin where we replaced Flaming Sphere with Flame Blade on the Undying Light's expanded spell list.

[DracoKnight]

My fix for it was as follows (and this is homebrew, I realize, so it won't work for everyone): I changed it from a melee spell attack to a melee weapon attack that you can use with the attack action, possessing the properties of a scimitar. I also put it on the Wizard and Sorcerer spell lists. If a Sorc wants to twin it and TWF, they can. If an Eldritch Knight (at 7th level) wants to sack out a 2nd level slot for flame blade with their multiple attacks, that's fine too.

That little tweak hasn't broken anything, and it's vastly improved players' perception of the spell, to the point where it's an option that they'll at least consider.

[Maxilian]

The most important thing to remember about Flame Blade is that it looks....


http://img05.deviantart.net/1288/i/2012/029/1/8/flaming_sword_by_dragonzardman-d4o2nrw.jpg
No wait...wrong picture...
http://orig02.deviantart.net/cdb7/f/2016/129/3/d/flaming_sword_by_meganerid-da1yfyd.jpg

*credit to MeganeRid for the awesome artwork. Link (http://meganerid.deviantart.com/art/Flaming-Sword-607948357)
And to dragonzardman for the photo. Link (https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=flaming+sword&client=ms-android-tmobile-gb&prmd=isvn&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwipsaOn1orVAhVKb1AKHeZyC_QQ_AUICSgB&biw=360&bih=514&dpr=2#imgrc=19lidaE7qIS9EM:).

Can't you get that awesome look from Elemental Weapon?

[Chunkosaurus]

I had a thought that maybe you could use it as a secret weapon that can't be taken away like a pact weapon, but no it just has to have a material component for no reason

[Aett_Thorn]

Flame Blade always seemed to me like it was created as a sample spell to show what the system would look like, but then it was never updated once all of the various action economy stuff had been worked out. A spell that is only really useful for two levels is just a waste of space.

[Tanarii]

What spells (higher level or not) can the druid use to do more than 3d6 in melee for the next 10 minutes?
In other words, what's a direct improvement that makes using it or a scaled up version of it pointless?

(I get there are generally better uses of your concentration.)

[Easy_Lee]

What spells (higher level or not) can the druid use to do more than 3d6 in melee for the next 10 minutes?
In other words, what's a direct improvement that makes using it or a scaled up version of it pointless?

(I get there are generally better uses of your concentration.)

The druid can deal 4D8 with a ranged cantrip at level 17, or potentially combine shilelagh with a blade cantrip for better damage at every level. It's also likely that the druid's wildshape forms will outdamage the spell.

But the real issue is that 3D6 is low damage at every level past 4. If the spell counted as a regular scimitar with a fire enchant, I could build around it. As a spell attack, there's little to be done short of multiclass hell.

[Tanarii]

Shillelagh + SCAG cantrip is a niche consideration IMO.

Ranged attack cantrips can't be used in melee, but save ones can. So if they're willing to take Poison Spray, that's a very good point. It's 2d12 at level 5, meaning if the Druid is willing to spend a cantrip slot to cover melee range damage they're doing comparable damage. Albeit as a save, which is almost always worse than an attack roll. (I usually figure saves are about 10% dpr worse for the same level). Cantrips making low level damage spells in low level slots pretty much pointless past a certain point isn't just a problem for the Druid, so I'm embarrassed I didn't think of it right away. :smallredface:

So the real question becomes a comparison of what it'd take to both out-damage Poison Save Spray. But given the scaling I think you're right, it'll never worth it. It really does seem to be a spell designed for level 3-4, and even then not that good. Kinda like Witch Bolt is designed for level 1-2 only, and even then sucks pretty bad.

Unfortunately making it an actual weapon attack doesn't really help Druids that much, and designing with multi-class in mind is against the 5e design philosophy, since they're add-on / optional rules. Maybe better scaling would do it. Would +1d6 per level break anything?

[Kane0]

Tada!

1st Level Evocation
Casting Time: 1 Bonus Action
Components: V, S, M (leaf of sumac)
Duration: 1 minute

You evoke a fiery blade in your free hand. The blade appears similar to a scimitar and lasts for the duration. If you let go of the blade it disappears but can be conjured again as a bonus action.
While the blade is in your hand you can use it to make attacks as if it were a weapon, making a melee spell attack instead of a melee weapon attack and dealing 2d6 fire damage on a hit. The flaming blade sheds bright light in a 10-foot radius and dim light fir an additional 10 feet.

At Higher Levels: When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 2nd level or higher, the damage increases by 1d6 for every slot level above 1st.