Can I get some help with a Battle Cleric build?

[Stryyke]

3.5 First party sources, and balanced other sources with references. Lvl 4. Melee primary, backup healer.

[Eldariel]

How long do you foresee the campaign going? Whether you want to peak now or within ~3 levels makes a big difference. Also, any idea on the party composition? Certainly, DMM: Persist is the obvious choice and on these levels, particularly the next, it begins to really kick onto its own. Planning and Undeath domains, Persistent Spell, DMM: Persistent Spell as feats and then Extra Turnings and perhaps items. It really hits its strive with level 3-4 spells though, including stuff like Mass Lesser Vigor, Recitation, Divine Power and company. Thus you have to wait for 1-3 levels to get some of the better investments: on this level you can only persist a minor number of spells.

Devotion-feats from Complete Champion are great. Law Devotion is raw numbers and particularly excellent early on. Animal Devotion gains lots of versatility including flight from level 1, and Knowledge Devotion is a solid combat buff that you can gain as a Cloistered Cleric (though this means investment in the Knowledge-skills; Divine Insight [Spell Compendium] and Guidance of the Avatar here (http://archive.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/sb/sb20010504a) help pump the bonus though). Other good Cleric-domain powers should be considered and you probably want Spell-domain [Spell Compendium] for Anyspell to access arcane buffs like Mirror Image, Invisibility, Draconic Polymorph & co. down the line. Take Spontaneous Domain Casting in Spell-domain and you can cycle spells through the lists.


Far as build goes, you can go Cloistered Cleric all the way or multiclass into Ordained Champion in a non-DMM build or Church Inquisitor for domains. Later on, stuff like Divine Disciple (combine with Polymorph), Contemplative, Radiant Servant of Pelor and company are worth consideration. You can close out with stuff like Sacred Exorcist, Bone Knight or Knight of the Raven. Alternatively, Ruby Knight Vindicator with a Crusader-dip is a solid option. Ruathar is nice for a Cloistered Cleric to add some class skills, but otherwise not remarkable. Dweomerkeeper with Magical Training-feat qualification is hideously broken for what it's worth.

Explain some more about the party optimization level, needs and such. Helps hit the sweet spot.

[Stryyke]

Explain some more about the party optimization level, needs and such. Helps hit the sweet spot.

This will (hopefully) be for a long running campaign. A few years at least, so 100 sessions give or take.
The party composition is

Barb bugbear
Barb Half-troll
Bard Half-fiend
Ranger Archer

And I will be an Ogre Cleric of Neldalla (Mailed Fist subcategory) with Destruction and War domains. My symbol is an inset flaming battleaxe on obsidian.

Optimization level is pretty low. In fact, the DM get suspicious of optimizers rather quickly.

So I would be the only real healer, but magic items abound, so it's not that big an issue; and the only offensive caster. I was thinking of doing a grapple build, with a battle axe as my non-grapple weapon of choice. I know it seems really unbalanced, but casters just can't survive the brutality of the campaign. I've tried.

I know 3rd level doesn't allow for much optimization, so let's assume I take generic Cleric for 3 levels. So I'm looking for where to go from here. There are lots of options, from what you said, so can you help me whittle them down a bit?

Edit: My stats are as follows:
STR 25
DEX 6
CON 20
INT 10
WIS 15
CHA 6

[Eldariel]

With 20 Con, 2 HD is nothing so I'd definitely pick Cloistered Cleric for the skillpoints and Knowledge Devotion (just don't forget to invest in the creature identification Knowledges). You really would benefit a lot of a reach weapon with your size and strength; Battleaxe would be quite meh by comparison to something like Guisarme. But if it's something you've decided on, I guess it can't be helped. Your PRC options are quite limited - and I definitely would still focus on your casting since your spells allow you to wreck enemies in martial combat as well. Grapple could work but takes a feat investment (Improved Unarmed Strike is a prerequiste and requires 13 Dex) and ultimately leaves you really vulnerable to multiple enemies as well; as a large creature it might be quite risky to give up your AoOs.

At this point, just casting Bull's Strength and hitting things in the face really hard works quite well. Perhaps using some swift spells and perhaps appropriate Protection. Ordained Champion would be a consideration but would give up your casting further delaying your ability to reach 4th level spells where you really begin to kick butt. Perhaps just base class. Either way, your biggest strength is your strength and size so I'd definitely consider if you could in any way swing a reach weapon and then just use buff spells to go from there, preparing some utility while at it.

[Stryyke]

You really would benefit a lot of a reach weapon with your size and strength; Battleaxe would be quite meh by comparison to something like Guisarme. But if it's something you've decided on, I guess it can't be helped.

It's my deity's favored weapon. I already have 10 reach. Should I give up the +1 Att for a reach weapon? What are the tradeoffs?

Thanks for reminding me about the dex requirement for improved unarmed. Grrr. Oh well.

I think with my character concept, self buffs and healing would be the only way he would go. Neldalla is the Neutral Evil deity of selfishness. So he wouldn't likely be into helping others, except as far as it would help himself.

[Eldariel]

It's my deity's favored weapon. I already have 10 reach. Should I give up the +1 Att for a reach weapon? What are the tradeoffs?

Thanks for reminding me about the dex requirement for improved unarmed. Grrr. Oh well.

I think with my character concept, self buffs and healing would be the only way he would go. Neldalla is the Neutral Evil deity of selfishness. So he wouldn't likely be into helping others, except as far as it would help himself.

Yeah, reach weapon generally serves you better though lacking Dex for combat reflexes makes it worse. Hitting an enemy at reach makes it impossible for 'em to hit back without taking a free hit, let alone if you can trip them making them wholly unable to respond. The thing with reach is, you get free AoOs when enemies 20' away move; there's no 5' step to close in to you so essentially it amounts to a free extra attack very often (though again, no Combat Reflexes does put a damper on things). You can threaten 5'-10' with e.g. armor spikes. An extra attack is generally worth way more than +1 hit. However, that does make War-domain wasted. Have you considered some of the Devotion-feats in Complete Champion? You can trade Domains for them and get some nice bonuses - though again the fact that you have so low Cha means you won't have many uses of Rebuke to recharge them. Knowledge Devotion is an exception since it's always active.

[Stryyke]

Yeah, reach weapon generally serves you better though lacking Dex for combat reflexes makes it worse. Hitting an enemy at reach makes it impossible for 'em to hit back without taking a free hit, let alone if you can trip them making them wholly unable to respond. The thing with reach is, you get free AoOs when enemies 20' away move; there's no 5' step to close in to you so essentially it amounts to a free extra attack very often (though again, no Combat Reflexes does put a damper on things). You can threaten 5'-10' with e.g. armor spikes. An extra attack is generally worth way more than +1 hit. However, that does make War-domain wasted. Have you considered some of the Devotion-feats in Complete Champion? You can trade Domains for them and get some nice bonuses - though again the fact that you have so low Cha means you won't have many uses of Rebuke to recharge them. Knowledge Devotion is an exception since it's always active.

I see your point. I did put armor spikes on, but I need to be sure about how those work. Since my reach is 10, can I use those at 10ft or 5ft? Or either?

I could do a Charge build. If I use a longspear, I get extra charge damage, right? Or was that impale damage? Let me go check. And it should have a range of 10. I have Rhino hide which gives me an additional 2d6 on a charge.

Let me go look at Complete Champion. Trading out at least one domain could be a good idea.

Edit: What do you think about getting a monk's belt? That should allow me to do grappling without the feat, right? Worth it or no?

[Eldariel]

I see your point. I did put armor spikes on, but I need to be sure about how those work. Since my reach is 10, can I use those at 10ft or 5ft? Or either?

I could do a Charge build. If I use a longspear, I get extra charge damage, right? Or was that impale damage? Let me go check. And it should have a range of 10. I have Rhino hide which gives me an additional 2d6 on a charge.

Let me go look at Complete Champion. Trading out at least one domain could be a good idea.

Edit: What do you think about getting a monk's belt? That should allow me to do grappling without the feat, right? Worth it or no?

What domains does Nedalla allow? I can't find anything official on her so I suppose she's entirely homebrew. Yeah, armor spikes threaten 5'-10' but if you got Monk's Belt, you could just use your unarmed strikes (e.g. kicks) to that end as well. Guisarme is better than Longspear since it can trip and tripping even without feats is a great way to stop enemies from getting in range, but getting the proficiency would require a spell or something.

[Stryyke]

What domains does Nedalla allow? I can't find anything official on her so I suppose she's entirely homebrew. Yeah, armor spikes threaten 5'-10' but if you got Monk's Belt, you could just use your unarmed strikes (e.g. kicks) to that end as well. Guisarme is better than Longspear since it can trip and tripping even without feats is a great way to stop enemies from getting in range, but getting the proficiency would require a spell or something.

Yea, Neldalla is homebrew. She allows evil, fire, destruction, war, knowledge, trickery, death, magic, plant, and sun

I'm looking at the Complete Champion feats now, and the destruction one looks fantastic. Once per day, each successful hit lowers the enemy's AC, and it stacks. Only 1 min, but 10 rounds should get me through most fights. Is that as good as it sounds?

[Hackulator]

Yea, Neldalla is homebrew. She allows evil, fire, destruction, war, knowledge, trickery, death, magic, plant, and sun

I'm looking at the Complete Champion feats now, and the destruction one looks fantastic. Once per day, each successful hit lowers the enemy's AC, and it stacks. Only 1 min, but 10 rounds should get me through most fights. Is that as good as it sounds?

It really depends on what you are fighting, but against a BBEG with a lot of natural armor (like a dragon) with a party as martial heavy as yours, yes it is as good as it sounds.

[Eldariel]

Trickery and Magic are both useful. Particularly Trickery-spells, making it a good option for Spontaneous Domain Casting [PHBII]. And Trickery Devotion is superb, particularly later on. Destruction Devotion is useful...if you are fighting big sacks of HP. Two-handing with 25 Str means you don't often need to hit that many times though; you're looking at 2d4+10 without buffs. Other options might be better - ones that improve your hit or AC.

Cloistered Cleric and Knowledge Devotion trade is fantastic. You can pick a bunch of Knowledges you'd want anyways, max all 6 for creatures (Local, Religion, The Planes, Arcane, Nature, Dungeoneering) and use Divine Insight as a combat buff. +1 to hit and damage over just BAB is great.

[Zombulian]

The Holy Warrior Cleric is a new favorite of mine ever since it was mentioned in a thread about making a Cleric with 9 wis playable. It's from the Pathfinder Chronicles Campaign Setting, and you get full BAB, d10 HD, proficiency with your Deity's favored weapon, and lose your domains.
Pretty snazzy deal for a Battle Cleric IMO.