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RAGE KING!
2007-08-07, 02:20 PM
theres a problem with four skill points per feat:

im going to assume that the fighters and barbarians in this example have 10 int.

- keep in mind that fighters are limited to fighter bonus feats, while the foru skill points thing is for any feat.

- though admittedly, certain feats require certain fighter levels to take.

barbarian/fighters

Barbarian level 1 = 14 skill points (or 10 skill points and any bonus feat) - assuming he took literacy.

fighter level 1= 8 skill points, and a fighter bonus feat.

- a level one barbarian can have just as many feats and more skill points then a level 1 fighter and also have class features.

putting this aside, a barbarian gets 2 more skill points per level than a fighter, allowing him to keep up with the fighters bonus feats, have the same number of skill points, and still have class features.

a level 4 fighter has 5 feats, and 14 skill points

a level 4 barbarian using the above method has 18 skill points and 5 feats. AND class features.

- the 4 skill points for a feat idea is stupid.

magicwalker
2007-08-07, 02:23 PM
Where is this?

Pink
2007-08-07, 02:25 PM
It might help your argument if you showed...some credible source that actually suggested this already. Like, some page in a book that suggests this as a variant?

Drider
2007-08-07, 02:30 PM
and a rogue can usually have a +2 modifier with int (usually) and just use umd, carry a wand of silence, invis, and fly, and knockand be a feat getting machine, feats are WAY better than just 4 skill points. you would need to get rid of AT LEAST 1-3 LEVELS worth of skill points, depending on the class...unless you get a crappy feat

Behold_the_Void
2007-08-07, 02:54 PM
Good thing you can't get 4 skill points for a feat then.

And by the way, if the Fighter and the Barbarian are dumping all their feats on skill points, they're going to be REALLY crappy at what their class is built around, i.e. frontline combat.

Well, crappier than normal.

Tallis
2007-08-07, 02:58 PM
Are you talking about some sort of house rule? Or is this in reference to feats like alertness that give a +2 bonus to 2 skills (thus totaling 4 skill points)?

Jasdoif
2007-08-07, 02:59 PM
...are you talking about spending four skill points to get a feat, or spending a feat to get four skill points?

Because Open Minded (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#openMinded) gives you five skill points.

Lucky
2007-08-07, 03:01 PM
...

What the crap are you talking about? :smallconfused:

Gralamin
2007-08-07, 03:01 PM
...are you talking about spending four skill points to get a feat, or spending a feat to get four skill points?

Because Open Minded (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#openMinded) gives you five skill points.
I was going to link that. I shall have revenge Jasdoif!

brian c
2007-08-07, 03:06 PM
I was going to link that. I shall have revenge Jasdoif!

Me too. We can plot together.

Hazkali
2007-08-07, 03:08 PM
The way I read it implies that Rage King thinks that one can buy Feats with 4 Skill Points. Which, under RAW, is impossible, and even the very idea is silly. Any DM allowing such a thing should be fed to Dire Penguins at the earliest opportunity.

Jasdoif
2007-08-07, 03:13 PM
The way I read it implies that Rage King thinks that one can buy Feats with 4 Skill Points. Which, under RAW, is impossible, and even the very idea is silly. Any DM allowing such a thing should be fed to Dire Penguins at the earliest opportunity.Especially if Open Minded is involved. "I'm going to buy a feat with four skill points. I'm taking that feat that gives me five skill points. Gonna buy another feat with four of those, 'kay?"

Arbitrarity
2007-08-07, 03:14 PM
*Looks at IH Thief class*
*Looks at 18 INT*
*Smiles slowly and evilly*

It's only 16 bonus feats at level 1, right?

Oh, and where did this "idea" come from? It has no supporting basis, makes no sense whatsoever, and appears to have sprung into existence spontaneously.

Evil DM Mark3
2007-08-07, 03:14 PM
The problem is I know of one DM (who labels himslef as houseruley, no decent DM tries to heavily alter DnD, all decent DMs can see that it can't take heavy modification and just build from the SRD) who has a 3 points to feat trade off. As well as a feat to four points trade (yes you read that right) the right to hold off assizing skills and feats until you need to use them, the requirement that you use a skil before you upgrade it. ("My my I am a powerful wizard who has not come across any other spellcasters. therefore I cannot improve my Spellcraft despite getting 9th level spells now.") Fumble tables and the king of all dumb house rules the -10 on nat 1, +10 on nat 20 rule for skills. Seriously, a guy has to have a +25 modifier before he can climb the trees he has lived in all his life with no chance of falling now?

valadil
2007-08-07, 03:23 PM
theres a problem with four skill points per feat:


Yeah. It's not in any book and not something any sane DM would institute. Letting rogues gain 2 feats per level is just dumb. *Maybe* having someone give up all their skill points for 2 levels with a minimum number of skill points given up, maybe that would be worth a feat. (Min number to offset the negative int 1skill per level fighters and all for 2 levels to offset high int wizards and rogues gaining a feat per level with skill points left over.)

bigbaddragon
2007-08-07, 05:25 PM
My DM employs a houserule involving skill points and feats. He made it up in order to make our characters more skillful and to give us the opportunity to get a few extra feats and it works pretty well for our characters. It goes like this:

1) All classes and prestige classes that get two skill points per level now gain four skill points per level

2) All characters get one additional skill point per level regardless of their class and race

3) We get a new skill called "Feat". For each five ranks in that skill you get one bonus feat for which you meet the requirements. All classes treat this skill as class skill when determining max number of ranks. When buying ranks in the "Feat skill" it is treated as a cross-class skill if you get more than four skill points per level, otherwise it is treated as a class skill.

Bottom line is that you can get four bonus feats this way (at level 2, 7, 12 and 17 earliest) but you decide when you want to put ranks in the "Feat skill" and it costs you either five or ten skill points per feat depending on how many skill points you gain per level. Also, Able Learner feat doesn't reduce the cost of "Feat skill" rank if its a cross-class skill for you.

This is my favorite houserule and it has proven to be a great boon.

LotharBot
2007-08-07, 05:42 PM
IIRC one of the books mentions that, if you're designing a custom class, to treat 4 skill points per level as approximately equal to a series of bonus feats (maybe 3-4 bonus feats over a 20-level progression?)

I don't remember what book it came out of, I only remember that it was talking about building custom classes.

goat
2007-08-07, 06:07 PM
Letting rogues gain 2 feats per level is just dumb... ...(Min number to offset the negative int 1skill per level fighters and all for 2 levels to offset high int wizards and rogues gaining a feat per level with skill points left over.)

Really, if a rogue by level 4 wouldn't be capable of buying 2 feats every level AND having at least 4 skill points left over for whatever skills fit their role, I'd consider them an odd rogue. If they really wanted, I'm sure there are some interesting builds that could be made with 3-4 feats a level + sneak attack, evasion and uncanny dodge.

Damionte
2007-08-07, 07:18 PM
He's not implying you can buy skill points with feats. Most of the Skill based feats in the PHB give you 4 ranks worth of bonus. Leading to the argument that Wizards seems to feel that 4 skill points is apparantly = to a feat.

ArmorArmadillo
2007-08-07, 07:21 PM
He's not implying you can buy skill points with feats. Most of the Skill based feats in the PHB give you 4 ranks worth of bonus. Leading to the argument that Wizards seems to feel that 4 skill points is apparantly = to a feat.
Well, I don't know anyone who ever takes those feats, so I'm inclined to agree.

Fax Celestis
2007-08-07, 07:24 PM
Well, considering those feats don't alter their bonuses dependent on your class skills, I would venture to say that one feat = 8 skill points. Take a fighter who takes Stealthy, for example. That'd be 8 points otherwise, which is slightly more reasonable.

goat
2007-08-07, 07:38 PM
Playing a human, martial-feats rogue with 18 int, no skills, and 9 feats at level 1 could be hilarious.

Gralamin
2007-08-07, 07:41 PM
Playing a human, martial-feats rogue with 18 int, no skills, and 9 feats at level 1 could be hilarious.

Human +1 Feat
Rogue +1 Feat
Level 1 +1 Feat
12 Skill points/level, 48 at level 1.
48/8 = 6 Feats
Total 9 feats

That would be hilarious... Maybe a maximum of your level in feats gained this way? (Or half your level, rounded up)

spotmarkedx
2007-08-08, 08:26 AM
My DM employs a houserule involving skill points and feats. He made it up in order to make our characters more skillful and to give us the opportunity to get a few extra feats and it works pretty well for our characters. It goes like this:

1) All classes and prestige classes that get two skill points per level now gain four skill points per level

2) All characters get one additional skill point per level regardless of their class and race

3) We get a new skill called "Feat". For each five ranks in that skill you get one bonus feat for which you meet the requirements. All classes treat this skill as class skill when determining max number of ranks. When buying ranks in the "Feat skill" it is treated as a cross-class skill if you get more than four skill points per level, otherwise it is treated as a class skill.

Bottom line is that you can get four bonus feats this way (at level 2, 7, 12 and 17 earliest) but you decide when you want to put ranks in the "Feat skill" and it costs you either five or ten skill points per feat depending on how many skill points you gain per level. Also, Able Learner feat doesn't reduce the cost of "Feat skill" rank if its a cross-class skill for you.

This is my favorite houserule and it has proven to be a great boon.

Ouch. I'd never play a skill-monkey character in this game. Their niche is already eroded by the low skill classes being the only ones to get skill point boosts, but they also (?!) have to pay a higher premium to buy a feat? No thanks.

But hey! Clerics and Wizards win! It really was unfortunate that they were falling behind in the skill and feat areas as compared to other classes. I'm glad they get a boost there.

I think the Feat skill concept has merit as a way to allow feat purchases with skill points, but keep it from being overused, but the rest of that house rule feels way off (imo, ymmv).

edit: the balance of all of this could be altered back for the better with one easy change. The characters that need to pay into the Feat skill as if it were crossclass (2 for 1) are any class that has had its skill points artificially raised to four/level

Krrth
2007-08-08, 12:41 PM
This sounds kinda similar to the training point system in Everquest. 5 training points a level, spend 'em as you wish.

RAGE KING!
2007-08-08, 02:00 PM
The way I read it implies that Rage King thinks that one can buy Feats with 4 Skill Points. Which, under RAW, is impossible, and even the very idea is silly. Any DM allowing such a thing should be fed to Dire Penguins at the earliest opportunity.

...thats really my point.

- and im not saying thats a common rule, im saying ive seen it used before.

horseboy
2007-08-08, 03:25 PM
Ouch. I'd never play a skill-monkey character in this game. Their niche is already eroded by the low skill classes being the only ones to get skill point boosts, but they also (?!) have to pay a higher premium to buy a feat? No thanks.


Okay, I've REALLY got to know, where does this fallacy keep coming from that giving the fighter a couple more skill points is suddenly going to make the rogue COMPLETELY obsolete? Do you never have a night where you have to climb a cliff, swim somewhere, jump over a chasm (wanna try and jump a chasm while carrying 150#?). Does everything in your dungeons march down the middle of the hallway, shouting a challenge to anything that comes near? Has there never been a time when it would be nice that the entire party be able to sneak past some something nasty? Do all the mobs have tattoos of their stats in common on their foreheads that every character is to know?

While the skill system is a good thing in general, the classes don't even get enough points to be decent stereotypes, let alone an individual.

Hagentai
2007-08-08, 04:26 PM
What stops any monster from milking the high holy hell out of this if your a dm? Or hell a Dragon? If you made it some fighter only method that might be something. Might be.

Hagentai
2007-08-08, 04:30 PM
...thats really my point.

- and im not saying thats a common rule, im saying ive seen it used before.

We've all played d and d here. And we've all seen some pretty out there house rules. Perhaps at if this was something that could only be done once and only at first level that would be nearly as bad.

bigbaddragon
2007-08-08, 05:50 PM
Ouch. I'd never play a skill-monkey character in this game. Their niche is already eroded by the low skill classes being the only ones to get skill point boosts, but they also (?!) have to pay a higher premium to buy a feat? No thanks.


All characters also get one more extra skill point per level so the skill monkeys are not downed the way you think they are, they can spend 5 bonus points and 5 of their own if they want the feat and nobody is making them to do that, its just an option.



But hey! Clerics and Wizards win! It really was unfortunate that they were falling behind in the skill and feat areas as compared to other classes. I'm glad they get a boost there.


Clerics, Fighters and all other classes with 2 skill points per level. Two skill points per level is just lame.



I think the Feat skill concept has merit as a way to allow feat purchases with skill points, but keep it from being overused, but the rest of that house rule feels way off (imo, ymmv).


Don't worry its not overused. You can get four feats this way (one by level 2, two by level 7, three by level 12 and four by level 17) and thats it.



edit: the balance of all of this could be altered back for the better with one easy change. The characters that need to pay into the Feat skill as if it were crossclass (2 for 1) are any class that has had its skill points artificially raised to four/level

Denying them that extra skill point per level that all characters get would be better I think.

It would be nice from me to also mention that this only applies to PCs, not NPCs or monsters.

Matthew
2007-08-08, 09:08 PM
...thats really my point.

- and im not saying thats a common rule, im saying ive seen it used before.
Really, it depends on the Feat being bought. All Feats are not equal, so why should the number of Skill Points used to buy them be?

Nerd-o-rama
2007-08-08, 09:15 PM
...thats really my point.

- and im not saying thats a common rule, im saying ive seen it used before.
Well, I think we're all in agreement that it's a silly rule. So, if you were looking for support in calling the people who use it silly, there you are.

(Also, I've never seen this idea, nor ever seen it considered. Unless you count Mutants & Masterminds, where one power point can buy four skill points or a feat, but that is something entirely, entirely different.)

TO_Incognito
2007-08-08, 10:58 PM
Okay, I've REALLY got to know, where does this fallacy keep coming from that giving the fighter a couple more skill points is suddenly going to make the rogue COMPLETELY obsolete? Do you never have a night where you have to climb a cliff, swim somewhere, jump over a chasm (wanna try and jump a chasm while carrying 150#?). Does everything in your dungeons march down the middle of the hallway, shouting a challenge to anything that comes near? Has there never been a time when it would be nice that the entire party be able to sneak past some something nasty? Do all the mobs have tattoos of their stats in common on their foreheads that every character is to know?

While the skill system is a good thing in general, the classes don't even get enough points to be decent stereotypes, let alone an individual.


All characters also get one more extra skill point per level so the skill monkeys are not downed the way you think they are, they can spend 5 bonus points and 5 of their own if they want the feat and nobody is making them to do that, its just an option.

Clerics, Fighters and all other classes with 2 skill points per level. Two skill points per level is just lame.

Guys, no one is claiming that giving Wizards and Clerics 3 more skill points per level makes skill monkeys useless.

What we are claiming is that primary casters in particular don't at all need more than 2 skill points for fun; their spells give them more diversity than any skill monkey, and increasing the power of Clerics and Wizards even further is just silly.

However, the part of the deal that most feels like the shaft for skill monkeys is the skill-point-to-feat buy-off system. Not only do Wizards and Clerics get 5 + Int modifier skill points at each level (with the Rogue getting 9 + Int modifier), they can buy a feat for 5 skill points while a Rogue has to spend 10. A feat for 5 skill points is a good deal for nearly any decent feat, while a feat for 10 skill points is a poor deal except perhaps for a feat a Rogue or Ranger absolutely needs to complete a build.

Does it really seem reasonable that Wizards and Clerics not only get only 2 fewer skill points at each level than Rangers, but can also viably spend skill points on feats while that option is all but nonexistant for Rangers and Rogues?

It does make sense (and does not ruin skill monkeys) to give more skill points to classes which don't really get enough to enjoy their skills, but doing it by significantly increasing the power of Wizards and Clerics and giving them a skill-based option that is virtually nonexistant for actual skill monkeys is just silly. It would make more sense to simply increase the base number of skill points that every class gains by 50% (3+Int mod, 6+Int mod, 9+Int mod, 12+Int mod; or even give the 2+int mod classes a bonus for 4+Int mod, 6+Int mod, 8+Int mod, 12+Int mod). In any case, the solution should not weaken skill monkeys by comparison or exclude them from options offered to classes which get fewer skill points.

silvadel
2007-08-08, 11:22 PM
I tend to let characters of about level 7 or higher to spend 1/2 of their exp needed for a level for a needed feat once in the same way a mage would make a magic item. Maybe a second time at 15th level or higher but it hasnt come up.

IMHO a feat is worth at least 8 skill points and I wouldnt let someone do it.

MrNexx
2007-08-09, 01:18 AM
I tend to let characters of about level 7 or higher to spend 1/2 of their exp needed for a level for a needed feat once in the same way a mage would make a magic item. Maybe a second time at 15th level or higher but it hasnt come up.

IMHO a feat is worth at least 8 skill points and I wouldnt let someone do it.

Some feats are worth 8 skill points. But would you seriously charge someone 8 skill points for Martial Weapon proficiency? How about Acrobatic? Or skill focus? Heck, even Track isn't worth 8 skill points.

spotmarkedx
2007-08-09, 08:19 AM
Okay, I've REALLY got to know, where does this fallacy keep coming from that giving the fighter a couple more skill points is suddenly going to make the rogue COMPLETELY obsolete? Do you never have a night where you have to climb a cliff, swim somewhere, jump over a chasm (wanna try and jump a chasm while carrying 150#?). Does everything in your dungeons march down the middle of the hallway, shouting a challenge to anything that comes near? Has there never been a time when it would be nice that the entire party be able to sneak past some something nasty? Do all the mobs have tattoos of their stats in common on their foreheads that every character is to know?

While the skill system is a good thing in general, the classes don't even get enough points to be decent stereotypes, let alone an individual.
Did I say that? No. I said the combination would make it so that I never would want to play a skill character. If there is to be an increase in skill points, I'd like to see a proportional increase in skill points for other characters as well. Or at the very least, have all the classes gain 2 more skill points, not just the lower skill classes.

But I was more complaining about the crossclass purchasing for the feat. Lets compare the Rogue, and the Wizard. First, you will be hardpressed to find a person on this board who makes the arguement that the rogue is a better class than a wizard (at least once past a certain level, say 3-5 or so). So, in theory, if one were to houserule, imo the rogue should either get a power boost, or the same effect, not less. Simple so far, yes?

So lets say both want to purchase feats through this skill mechanic.
The rogue spends his 1 "extra" skill point/level (unless he was human, then he's not getting any extra from how I read this, he's getting the RAW human skill points here), and also one of his rogue skill points to get a feat. Meanwhile, the wizard only has to spend one of his two new houseruled class skill points, can spend the others on something else (alchemy, say), and also gets another extra skill point that he wouldn't have been getting if he's not human. Color me unimpressed with this.


All characters also get one more extra skill point per level so the skill monkeys are not downed the way you think they are, they can spend 5 bonus points and 5 of their own if they want the feat and nobody is making them to do that, its just an option.

Clerics, Fighters and all other classes with 2 skill points per level. Two skill points per level is just lame.
I'm not arguing that the houserule is 100% bad, I'm just saying that if the rogue takes that one skill point/level new, the wizard or cleric at the same time can take two new skill points as well as 4 more bonus feats. Sorry, I don't see the fact that it is an "option" being even close to making this equitable.


Don't worry its not overused. You can get four feats this way (one by level 2, two by level 7, three by level 12 and four by level 17) and thats it.
Actually, sorry if this didn't come through, I was actually complimenting the idea. I was saying that it's a good way to to keep the 5 skill points -> feat idea from being overused (as mentioned upwards in the thread, otherwise one could play an intelligent rogue that has 8 bonus feats, and still have a couple skills to start) :D


Denying them that extra skill point per level that all characters get would be better I think.
No, I still don't find this equitable.
Thief: +1 skill point/level or -1 skill point/level + bonus feats.
Mage/Cleric: +2 skill points/level or +1 skill point/level + bonus feats.