What base class is weaker than soulknife?

[Hackulator]

In a world with a reasonable level of magic item availability, is there a class that is less powerful than a Soulknife? I feel like the soulknife has got to be the least powerful class in the game. Even a class like Marshal has a higher ceiling than Soulknife.

Secondary question, shouldn't psychic warrior and soulknife really just be one gestalted class?

[eggynack]

Back when I was doing the retiering thread (which I should prolly get back to, maybe with some psionics action), soulknife got a 5.15 mean score with 15 total votes. The CW samurai got worse than that, with a 5.27 with also 15 votes. No other non-NPC got a worse score. Reasonable answer, I think.

[Hackulator]

Back when I was doing the retiering thread (which I should prolly get back to, maybe with some psionics action), soulknife got a 5.15 mean score with 15 total votes. The CW samurai got worse than that, with a 5.27 with also 15 votes. No other non-NPC got a worse score. Reasonable answer, I think.

I feel like the Samurai class gets extra hate because people think a Samurai SHOULD be awesome while they don't have any real preconceptions of a soulknife. I think a samurai would probably beat a soulknife 1v1 and could output more damage against most encounters as well.

[flappeercraft]

Monk seems like its around as powerful as a soulknife, maybe weaker or stronger.

[ericgrau]

So it trades away full BAB and class features to save a bit of WBL on a magic weapon? Roughly 1/4 WBL. And once per combat you can psychic strike because I can't see any reason to blow a move action on it mid-combat.

Am I missing anything? This seems to be around NPC warrior class power.


Monk seems like its around as powerful as a soulknife, maybe weaker or stronger.
Don't be so mean to the monk.

[Dagroth]

Monk seems like its around as powerful as a soulknife, maybe weaker or stronger.

Monks have defensive advantages that Soulknives don't.

[Lans]

It should be noted that part of soulknifes value is in its skills

Edit Using a move action pre multiple attacks has is useful

The sword has a psuedo+2 in having throwing and returning enhancements

it gets around magic DR and antimagic zones

[ericgrau]

Oh it looks like they can throw their weapons ok. Up to 4 in a round but not 2 rounds in a row.

And they get 3 feats that aren't super great.

Um... anything else?

[Hackulator]

It should be noted that part of soulknifes value is in its skills

4+int mod is not that much

Also I think there is no way monk is not far superior to Soulknife. Monk's abilities may not all work well together, but at least he has them.

[The Glyphstone]

Healer is pretty awful, isn't it? It is admittedly very good at its defined role of, well, healing, but that's regarded as a terrible use of in-combat actions and with good reason.

[Lans]

Healer is aweful for a full caster, but its probably not one of the worst 3 classes


4+int mod is not that much

Also I think there is no way monk is not far superior to Soulknife. Monk's abilities may not all work well together, but at least he has them.

Well its competing for not worse between monk, samurai and it over various optimizaton levels, any advantage it can get is good. I think in the hands of unwatched newbies its better than monk. It might be better than samurai.

[Sian]

Healer is pretty awful, isn't it?

Healer is fairly solid (if uninspiríng) Tier 3 ... They're great at healing (d'uh), but are quite useless otherwise and have some, sometimes annoying, Roleplaying loops to jump through ... Also ... Unicorn Companion.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Healer is fairly solid (if uninspiríng) Tier 3 ... They're great at healing (d'uh), but are quite useless otherwise and have some, sometimes annoying, Roleplaying loops to jump through ... Also ... Unicorn Companion.

Sanctified spells make the Healer a lot more effective.

Are we counting NPC classes? If so, Commoner.

If not, what about the Soulborn? I hear a Fighter with two level dip in Incarnate that took the Open Chakra line and Shape Soulmeld feats are better.

Truenamers are pretty bad, but I think the Soulknife is worse.

Edit: Samurai is pretty bad too, possible worse than the Soulknife or Soulborn.

[logic_error]

Why is samurai so bad?

[ColorBlindNinja]

Why is samurai so bad?

They're MAD for one thing. For another, they get class features that mimic TWF feats, but aren't actually TWF feats, so they don't act as perquisites for any feats that actually make TWF bearable.

They also get a code of conduct, like the Paladin, but if they fall, they can take levels in Ronin and get actual class features.

Edit: They can also only TWF with sucky weapons.

[Hackulator]

Why is samurai so bad?

Its like a fighter, with fewer bonus feats and the bonus feats are preselected for you. It gets a few abilities of questionable value, especially when you consider they are charisma based.

[logic_error]

Nono. As in why are they *worse* than Soulblade.

[Hackulator]

Nono. As in why are they *worse* than Soulblade.

Oh...I think they clearly are better than soulblade.

[Nifft]

Nono. As in why are they *worse* than Soulblade.

Because the things they get are generally worse than the things a Soulknife gets.

[logic_error]

Because the things they get are generally worse than the things a Soulknife gets.

Thanks for the correction. Also, what things that the Soulknife (poor guy, not even a blade) gets are better?

[Vinyadan]

Isn't Truenamer worse than anything?

[ColorBlindNinja]

Isn't Truenamer worse than anything?

If you really optimize it, you can make Truenamer semi-competent.

You don't need to multiclass either.

[Nifft]

Thanks for the correction. Also, what things that the Soulknife (poor guy, not even a blade) gets are better?

CW Samurai and Soulknife both get d10 HD.

Soulknife has a 4+Int skill points, two good saves, and gets two free bad feats at level 1 (instead of one free bad feat for CW Samurai).

The Soulknife qualifies for [Psionic] feats, like Speed of Thought and Psionic Shot.

Level 1 Mindblade: Soulknife has a weapon which can negate sundering & disarming. This is niche, but better than nothing.

Level 2 Throw Mindblade: Soulknife gains an ability that leads into the Soulbow PrC, which is significantly better than the Soulknife. In comparison, at level 2 the CW Samurai gets TWF-but-not-really (which can't be used to meet any prerequisites).

Level 3 Psychic Strike vs. Kiai Strike: the Soulknife can add +1d8 damage to the next hit by spending a Move action, and she can do this all day. The CW Samurai can add his Charisma to one attack, lost if it misses, and he can do this 1/day.


The CW Samurai fails at almost every direct comparison. It's probably fine for an NPC class -- that's how I use it, they're a specific type of Aristocrat.

[logic_error]

Interesting. I thought the Full BAB is still much better. At least the Samurai will hit something. They can hope to use the mainstay of the Melee class, Power attack, better than the soul knife. What a truly optimised charger can do, they can do to, just later in the game.

[Forrestfire]

Truenamer can be optimized into being around a Tier 4, except at 20, when it abruptly shoots to Tier 1.

Monk has a bevy of ACFs that include Shadow Blend at 6 (total concealment in anywhere other than daylight, can't be seen through by any sort of vision), Wild Shape progressions, useful bonus feats, and similar stuff. It's not a good class, and takes optimization to become functional, but unlike the soulknife, it can become workable.

CWar Samurai has Intimidate cheese going for it, and at least has some abilities. You can ignore most of them and still fight, it'll end up as a slightly worse fighter.

Divine Mind (not mentioned yet but a contender) has an ACF that gives them full-strength astral constructs, which is at least a passable effect (even if it was almost certainly not intended by the designers to be functional in this way).

Soulknife has a worse weapon than if they simply got a sword and used it, does not have full BAB for being a martial, has little "free" AC from armor, and has no mobility or utility effects.

Given how behind they are in their role (frontline melee), I would posit that even an NPC warrior (which at least gets full BAB and all types of armors) is a better martial class than the soulknife.

I would assert that there is no PC class that is worse than the soulknife. All it's got going for it is entry into the soulbow PrC, for very niche Wisdom-SAD builds, but that's involving a whole other class (potentially multiple classes).

[ColorBlindNinja]

Truenamer can be optimized into being around a Tier 4, except at 20, when it abruptly shoots to Tier 1.

Monk has a bevy of ACFs that include Shadow Blend at 6 (total concealment in anywhere other than daylight, can't be seen through by any sort of vision), Wild Shape progressions, useful bonus feats, and similar stuff. It's not a good class, and takes optimization to become functional, but unlike the soulknife, it can become workable.

CWar Samurai has Intimidate cheese going for it, and at least has some abilities. You can ignore most of them and still fight, it'll end up as a slightly worse fighter.

Divine Mind (not mentioned yet but a contender) has an ACF that gives them full-strength astral constructs, which is at least a passable effect (even if it was almost certainly not intended by the designers to be functional in this way).

Soulknife has a worse weapon than if they simply got a sword and used it, does not have full BAB for being a martial, has little "free" AC from armor, and has no mobility or utility effects.

Given how behind they are in their role (frontline melee), I would posit that even an NPC warrior (which at least gets full BAB and all types of armors) is a better martial class than the soulknife.

I would assert that there is no PC class that is worse than the soulknife. All it's got going for it is entry into the soulbow PrC, for very niche Wisdom-SAD builds.

I'd forgotten about the Divine Mind; that class is probably tier 6 without ACFs.

Would you say the Soulknife is worse than the Soulborn?

[Nifft]

Interesting. I thought the Full BAB is still much better. At least the Samurai will hit something. They can hope to use the mainstay of the Melee class, Power attack, better than the soul knife. What a truly optimised charger can do, they can do to, just later in the game.

At the first 4 levels, there's no difference, because the free bad feat the Soulknife gets is Weapon Focus (mindblade).

They have equal attack bonus until level... 5? No wait, no they don't, because the Soulknife got a +1 enhancement bonus at level 4. So the CW Samurai's attack bonus is one behind at level 4, and only catches up at level 5. Unless the CW Samurai got a magic bastard sword before level 5, I guess. But then the Soulknife could have gotten a Mindblade Gauntlet (MIC) to remain ahead.

CW Samurai is worse in almost every particular area.

[AnimeTheCat]

They're MAD for one thing. For another, they get class features that mimic TWF feats, but aren't actually TWF feats, so they don't act as perquisites for any feats that actually make TWF bearable.

They also get a code of conduct, like the Paladin, but if they fall, they can take levels in Ronin and get actual class features.

Edit: They can also only TWF with sucky weapons.

to be fair, any class that runs from a liege lord or is exiled for failure can take levels of Ronin. Now, that may actually be pretty neat for a shock trooper/ubercharger build to get even more extra damage. You could argue that since you're taking from your AC for Shock Trooper that the penalty applies for banzai charge. It does say that the -2 penalty you normally take from charging applies so, there's some basis in RAW.

Why doesn't Two Swords as One count for two weapon fighting? It says he is treated as having the two weapon fighting feat when using the katana and wakazashi soooo.... why doesn't it apply?

[Nifft]

to be fair, any class that runs from a liege lord or is exiled for failure can take levels of Ronin. Now, that may actually be pretty neat for a shock trooper/ubercharger build to get even more extra damage. You could argue that since you're taking from your AC for Shock Trooper that the penalty applies for banzai charge. It does say that the -2 penalty you normally take from charging applies so, there's some basis in RAW.

Why doesn't Two Swords as One count for two weapon fighting? It says he is treated as having the two weapon fighting feat when using the katana and wakazashi soooo.... why doesn't it apply?

Because you can't use it for fun TWF things like throwing more daggers & flasks of Alchemist's Fire.

Rangers at least have a very simple qualification criteria for their virtual feats: wear light armor. The CW Samurai's limitation is far less flexible.

[ColorBlindNinja]

to be fair, any class that runs from a liege lord or is exiled for failure can take levels of Ronin. Now, that may actually be pretty neat for a shock trooper/ubercharger build to get even more extra damage. You could argue that since you're taking from your AC for Shock Trooper that the penalty applies for banzai charge. It does say that the -2 penalty you normally take from charging applies so, there's some basis in RAW.

Worth noting that Samurai have the similar mulitclassing restrictions that Monks and Paladins do, and they have to be lawful.

Most chargers like a dip in Barbarian for pounce.


Why doesn't Two Swords as One count for two weapon fighting? It says he is treated as having the two weapon fighting feat when using the katana and wakazashi soooo.... why doesn't it apply?

I don't think it counts as a prerequisite for feats.

[Forrestfire]

I'd forgotten about the Divine Mind; that class is probably tier 6 without ACFs.

Would you say the Soulknife is worse than the Soulborn?

Soulborn is full BAB, gets better proficiencies for low-level defenses, gets immunity to a common save-or-lose effect, and later gets soulmelds. The class is bad but not the worst.

[Waker]

Would you say the Soulknife is worse than the Soulborn?
I'd rate the Soulborn as stronger than Soulknife. Soulborn has full BAB and even with the watered down meldshaping, that still gives them a boost in either combat or out of combat situations depending on what you have shaped. Plus some of the Incarnum feats like Cobalt Power can give you a slight combat boost.

[Nifft]

I'd rate the Soulborn as stronger than Soulknife. Soulborn has full BAB and even with the watered down meldshaping, that still gives them a boost in either combat or out of combat situations depending on what you have shaped. Plus some of the Incarnum feats like Cobalt Power can give you a slight combat boost.

You think Cobalt Power is stronger than Psionic Weapon?

Also, you seem to think [Incarnum] feats can't be taken by anyone -- is that true?

[ColorBlindNinja]

Soulborn is full BAB, gets better proficiencies for low-level defenses, gets immunity to a common save-or-lose effect, and later gets soulmelds. The class is bad but not the worst.



I'd rate the Soulborn as stronger than Soulknife. Soulborn has full BAB and even with the watered down meldshaping, that still gives them a boost in either combat or out of combat situations depending on what you have shaped. Plus some of the Incarnum feats like Cobalt Power can give you a slight combat boost.

OK, I suspected as much, but thought I'd ask. Thanks.

Edit:


You think Cobalt Power is stronger than Psionic Weapon?

Also, you seem to think [Incarnum] feats can't be taken by anyone -- is that true?

Anyone with a 13 in CON qualifies for most Incarnum, if that's what you were asking. If I'm recalling that correctly.

[Forrestfire]

At the first 4 levels, there's no difference, because the free bad feat the Soulknife gets is Weapon Focus (mindblade).

They have equal attack bonus until level... 5? No wait, no they don't, because the Soulknife got a +1 enhancement bonus at level 4. So the CW Samurai's attack bonus is one behind at level 4, and only catches up at level 5. Unless the CW Samurai got a magic bastard sword before level 5, I guess. But then the Soulknife could have gotten a Mindblade Gauntlet (MIC) to remain ahead.

CW Samurai is worse in almost every particular area.

A lesser mind blade gauntlet costs 10,000gp. The normal one costs 24,000gp. A +1 bastard sword costs 2,335gp. A 5th-level character's WBL is 9,000gp, and a 4th-level character's WBL is 5,400gp. The samurai can be reasonably expected to have a magic sword by then. They're still ahead of the soulknife, at that point, and get even further ahead at 6th level when they get their first iterative.

[AnimeTheCat]

Worth noting that Samurai have the similar mulitclassing restrictions that Monks and Paladins do, and they have to be lawful.
Most chargers like a dip in Barbarian for pounce.
I don't think it counts as a prerequisite for feats.

Right, a samurai could multiclass out and never go back (why would you really?).

As for Ronin, I was just saying that a fighter could flee from his liege lord and then later take levels of Ronin. In that instance you could even fighter 2/Barbarian 1/ whatever full BAB 5/Ronin 2 for banzai charge and all your feats.

I was under the impression that if something says "you are treated as having this feat" you could take other feats that had it as a prerequisite as long as you still used whatever to meet the original requirements of having the original feat. In this instance, as long as you used your katana and wakazashi you could qualify for dual strike, two weapon pounce, etc but you can only use those feats with your daisho.

[Jormengand]

The samurai is better than the soulknife at low levels because the soulknife is better off ignoring its class features and grabbing MWP greatsword and hitting the samurai with that. The samurai is better later on because it can wear real armour. The samurai is better at really really high levels because the soulknife runs away when the samurai draws his weapon.

Against a truenamer, the poor soulknife (who still thinks that using a weapon to hurt people is a viable strategy while everyone else is casting spells that actually do things) doesn't stand a chance; at low levels the soulknife might be able to kill the truenamer for the same reason he may kill the wizard, but the truenamer in question can just whack him with a morningstar and forget she's a truenamer for a second and still stand a chance of killing him; he has a bad day if she remembers that she has class features.

Then again, the soulknife probably has a better day if he forgets he has class features.

It's not much of a contest. A better question is "Is a warrior better than a soulknife?" What about an aristocrat; how long does it take before a third-rate weapon catches up to armour proficiency?

[Hackulator]

Also don't forget the Soulknife is wearing light armor while the Samurai can use heavy armor.

[Nifft]

Anyone with a 13 in CON qualifies for most Incarnum, if that's what you were asking. If I'm recalling that correctly.
What I'm actually asking is: Waker, why do you seem to think otherwise?

Soulknife is bad, but it does open up a new category of feats: [Psionic] feats.

Incarnum feats have no such barrier to entry.


A lesser mind blade gauntlet costs 10,000gp. The normal one costs 24,000gp. A +1 bastard sword costs 2,335gp. A 5th-level character's WBL is 9,000gp, and a 4th-level character's WBL is 5,400gp. The samurai can be reasonably expected to have a magic sword by then. They're still ahead of the soulknife, at that point, and get even further ahead at 6th level when they get their first iterative.

Good point on weapon price.

But you're missing several factors, like how Soulknife gets free Throwing and Returning (totaling +2 equivalent). That's not good, but it's better than the nothing that a CW Samurai gets.

CW Samurai has no ranged class feature support. Soulknife has poor ranged class feature support, which is better than none.

But really, they're both awful.

[Waker]

You think Cobalt Power is stronger than Psionic Weapon?

Also, you seem to think [Incarnum] feats can't be taken by anyone -- is that true?

What are you talking about? I never mentioned Psionic Weapon (you mean this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/weapons.htm)?)
And yes, anyone can take Incarnum feats, assuming they met the prereqs. However the reason I bring it up is because the Soulborn gets bonus Incarnum feats and they have the essentia to invest more than the 1 point you get from taking the feats.

[AnimeTheCat]

ok ok ok. I've got it. At level 1 I know a soulknife that can deal 1d6+1d6+2d6+str on a regular attack. You have to play a class that grants you a bonus feat and you have to form your mind blade to do it, but if take soulcarnum blade and psychic weapon you get +1d6 damage per essentia invested and +2d6 from psychic strike. Granted... a move action to form your blade is kinda lame, unless you can do it as a part of moving like drawing a weapon normally.

[Nifft]

What are you talking about? I never mentioned Psionic Weapon (you mean this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/weapons.htm)?)
And yes, anyone can take Incarnum feats, assuming they met the prereqs. However the reason I bring it up is because the Soulborn gets bonus Incarnum feats and they have the essentia to invest more than the 1 point you get from taking the feats.

How do you intend to invest more than one point before level 6, since you have 0 points of Essentia until level 6?

After that, you get one point of Essentia -- whatever you're investing before that came from feats, just like it would for a non-Soulborn -- but you're still capped by the global Essentia investment limit unless you spend *another* feat.


Regarding Psionic Weapon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#psionicWeapon), that's something which I mentioned. It's a [Psionic] feat. Access to [Psionic] feats is part of why Soulknife is better than Soulborn.

Soulborn have no special access to [Incarnum] feats.

In contrast, Soulknife does have special access to [Psionic] feats.

[Forrestfire]

Good point on weapon price.

But you're missing several factors, like how Soulknife gets free Throwing and Returning (totaling +2 equivalent). That's not good, but it's better than the nothing that a CW Samurai gets.

CW Samurai has no ranged class feature support. Soulknife has poor ranged class feature support, which is better than none.

In a sense, yes. The soulknife gets the ability to throw their mind blade. The samurai, however, gets a bow, with longer range and possible masterworking (+1 further attack bonus over the soulknife as soon as they have enough gold. Which, at 2nd level, they should). Neither of them is likely to hit, because they're Strength-based. The soulknife could take Weapon Finesse and be equally-good at hitting at melee and range... at 3rd level, since they don't have BAB +1 at 1st level, and Weapon Finesse requires it (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#weaponFinesse). They're both still going to be taking a -4 penalty to their attack rolls probably, thanks to shooting into melee.

Though the samurai's bow has a more likely chance of shooting people from far off, so they might not be taking the -4 after all.

And if the samurai wants to also use thrown weapons... well, clubs are free, and do 1d6 just like the mind blade does.


But really, they're both awful.

Amen to that.


Regarding Psionic Weapon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#psionicWeapon), that's something which I mentioned. It's a [Psionic] feat. Access to [Psionic] feats is part of why Soulknife is better than Soulborn.

Soulborn have no special access to [Incarnum] feats.

In contrast, Soulknife does have special access to [Psionic] feats.

At low levels, where psionic weapon is most relevant, the soulborn's AC will be better (soulknife must have points spent on Strength to get psionic weapon, which is less put into Dex. They could spend 100gp of their average 100 starting gold on a chain shirt, though, if they want), and the soulknife can do a 3d6+Strength attack generally once per encounter. The soulborn's AC will be likely 16 (scale mail + shield) if they decide to use it, which is relevant at level 1. Alternatively, if they go for the same AC as the soulknife, they're doing a single attack for 2d6+1.5 Strength.

If we assume that both of these characters went for straight damage, a 16 Str and a +2 Str race, then the soulknife's Psionic Weapon rounds will be on average 14.5 damage per hit. The soulborn's will be 13 damage per hit. The soulknife can only do this once per fight (unless they spend a full round concentrating), while the soulborn does it every round. The soulborn is also up a feat, and may have better AC, if the soulknife rolled poorly on starting gold (or didn't spend almost all of it on armor). The soulborn also has a higher attack bonus by 1.

At level 2, the soulborn can upgrade their armor significantly, boosting AC further than soulknife can likely match (unless they're Dex-based, in which case they have no attack bonus to speak of and probably don't have Psionic Weapon).

I feel like Psionic Weapon is not as strong an option as it might seem.

[Waker]

How do you intend to invest more than one point before level 6, since you have 0 points of Essentia until level 6?

After that, you get one point of Essentia -- whatever you're investing before that came from feats, just like it would for a non-Soulborn -- but you're still capped by the global Essentia investment limit unless you spend *another* feat.
I never said anything about investing more essentia before level 6. I merely said that as a class that gets esseentia, you can invest more into the feat beyond the points granted to you by the feats themselves.


Regarding Psionic Weapon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#psionicWeapon), that's something which I mentioned. It's a [Psionic] feat. Access to [Psionic] feats is part of why Soulknife is better than Soulborn.
The reason I was confused by you talking about the feat is that you brought it up out of nowhere after I made a post talking about Cobalt Power. And yes, Psionic Weapon does let you deal decent damage, but it requires getting Psionic Focus first.

Meditating to gain psionic focus is a full-round action.
So you need to spend a full-round getting focused, then making an attack with your medium BAB and hope for the best.
Whereas Cobalt Power just grants you bonus damage whenever you use Power Attack. No special set-up required.


Soulborn have no special access to [Incarnum] feats.

In contrast, Soulknife does have special access to [Psionic] feats.

Bonus Feat: At 3rd, 7th, and 11th levels, you gain a bonus incarnum feat for which you meet the prerequisites.
Except for the times that they explicitly do. While the Soulknife has a grand total of zero bonus feats, beyond the pre-picked ones.

[Forrestfire]

So you need to spend a full-round getting focused, then making an attack with your medium BAB and hope for the best.
Whereas Cobalt Power just grants you bonus damage whenever you use Power Attack. No special set-up required.


As an aside, though I'm presently arguing against Psionic Weapon being a meaningful boost in this way, you can (and should) meditate between combats. The soulknife's opening attack can assume a focus to expend.

[Waker]

As an aside, though I'm presently arguing against Psionic Weapon being a meaningful boost in this way, you can (and should) meditate between combats. The soulknife's opening attack can assume a focus to expend.

Oh, I'm well aware of the general tactic of meditating between combats. I was arguing more against the infeasibility of repeated use of this in combat. You can eventually get that one feat that reduces the psionic focus to a move action, but that's still another feat spent and a move action that competes with Pschic Strike.

[Hackulator]

As an aside, though I'm presently arguing against Psionic Weapon being a meaningful boost in this way, you can (and should) meditate between combats. The soulknife's opening attack can assume a focus to expend.

Yeah, I think one of the soulknife's best strategies would be to get Psionic Weapon and Psychic Strike both charged up between fights and open up with a single big hit.

[Sagetim]

So it trades away full BAB and class features to save a bit of WBL on a magic weapon? Roughly 1/4 WBL. And once per combat you can psychic strike because I can't see any reason to blow a move action on it mid-combat.

Am I missing anything? This seems to be around NPC warrior class power.


Don't be so mean to the monk.

Well, among other things, psionic feats that increase your versatility and are natively open to all soulknives, whereas to start down that path as a samurai you have to either pick a specific, already psionic race, or eat one of your feats for wild talent to get the baseline 'has power points' to open up psionic feats as options. Oh, and while either class can take it, it seems more likely that a soulknife would know the guy necessary to get a psychoactive skin of ectoplasmic armor (which weighs all of 1 pound, only requires light armor proficiency, and delivers a platemail level of armor bonus to ac for something like 3k gold). Which you can more easily afford, along with other tricksy items as a soul knife because you're not dropping cash on a magic weapon or two.

Unless you're allowed to use magic items from a 3.0 faerun supplement (where you can get bracers that can be enchanted like normal weapons to apply those to your unarmed strike) then amulet of mighty fists is your go to for making unarmed strikes resemble competitive attack options as compared to magic weapons. With that in mind, the cost of an amulet of mighty fists is about double that of a regular magic weapon, and it eats your amulet slot, so you would have to drop yet more money to combine it with other amulet slot items, like an amulet of natural armor. Which leaves you less cash to pick up tricksy magical items that you can use to vary your tactics and provide a less predictable means of engaging your enemies in combat.

I didn't know we were counting alternate class feature voodoo, which is where most other classes are going to pull ahead of psionics in general because of a lack of regular support for psionics in 3.5. So, setting that aside, the lack of full base attack bonus hurts the soulknife. And the Monk. Like, a lot. Especially when the monk's bonus attacks from flurrying start out by punching the monk's attack bonus down. But something the soulknife can do at level 1 is take psionic weapon. They can then potentially end that level 1 fight they're in with one hit, because it's dealing 3d6+str mod damage. Around level 6, when others are taking iterative attacks, the soulknife can pick up psychic meditation (which, for some godforsaken reason has a 7 rank requirement, and yet, who is psionic and gets a bonus feat at 4? The psychic warrior gets one at 5). So while others are all 'look at my amazing iterative attack that has a higher chance of missing and doing literally no extra damage', the soul knife is going 'oh look, I can stack my greatsword of extra damage onto my attacks Every Round now.' So it's not like the soul knife is completely incapable at combat, just that trying to make them keep up with others in the same way is a ridiculous way to approach the problem. Kind of like when the electric engine came out. If you just replace your steam powered factory's engine with an electric engine, you're not going to see any great gains from it, but if you change the way you approach the problem to take advantage of the capabilities this set of tools provides, then you will see better results.

[Nifft]

I never said anything about investing more essentia before level 6. I merely said that as a class that gets esseentia, you can invest more into the feat beyond the points granted to you by the feats themselves. The class gets hardly any Essentia, though, and for 1/4 of the game it gets ZERO.




The reason I was confused by you talking about the feat is that you brought it up out of nowhere after I made a post talking about Cobalt Power. And yes, Psionic Weapon does let you deal decent damage, but it requires getting Psionic Focus first.

So you need to spend a full-round getting focused, then making an attack with your medium BAB and hope for the best.
Whereas Cobalt Power just grants you bonus damage whenever you use Power Attack. No special set-up required. At worst, it's one full-round action before combat starts, so it's one free +2d6 damage strike.

If you pick feats well, it's quite possible to start refreshing your Psi Focus as a Move action around level 6, at which point you've got a once-per-turn attack that can deal decent damage.



Except for the times that they explicitly do. While the Soulknife has a grand total of zero bonus feats, beyond the pre-picked ones.

Heh, Soulknife can get those too, thanks to http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070214a



Bonus Feats
You sacrifice power for skill and technique.

Level: 3rd, 7th, 11th, 15th, and 19th.
Replaces: You lose all psychic strike class abilities at the above levels.

Benefit: In place of the psychic strike class ability, you gain a bonus feat at each level above. You may choose any feat designed for soulknives (such as those in Complete Psionic) or any feat that your mind blade can benefit from, such as Power Attack or Improved Critical (also see the mind blade feats in Dragon Magazine #341 in the "Class Acts: Adventurer" article). You must meet any prerequisites for the feat you choose.


Oh wait, Soulknife gets more.

Sorry Soulborn.


Bluh, I can't believe I'm actually defending this awful class...

[Kaje]

Samurai is so bad that it doesn't even get a class feature at level one. Oh, the class tries to tell you otherwise, but that "feature" is just a proficiency, something literally every class receives at level one.

[tyckspoon]

Yeah, I think one of the soulknife's best strategies would be to get Psionic Weapon and Psychic Strike both charged up between fights and open up with a single big hit.

This does appear to be intended to be Soulknife's 'trick', as much as anything is. It's not a *good* trick, the numbers are too little too late to much care, but it's there; I think the idea was the Soulknife would assassinate a target with Psychic Strike at the start of a fight (plus perhaps Power Attack aided by Deep Impact), and if after that he was making fairly dull and uninspiring normal attacks.. well, he already killed or chunked out one (presumably dangerous) target, he's already contributed his weight to the group for that fight. That or it's one of the things where the designers didn't understand the game again, and they seriously thought blowing move actions mid-fight to recharge Psychic Strike + attack once was equal to Full Attacks.


I feel like Psionic Weapon is not as strong an option as it might seem.

It's a solid low-level damage feat; especially at 1st and 2nd level that extra 2d6 can very well take things you hit from 'hurt' to 'dead', which means it's doing its job quite well. Falls off as you enter mid levels, and would be a pretty good candidate for trying to retrain/Psychic Reformation away if you didn't need to keep it to qualify for Deep Impact. The main thing making it look bad is that 1st level damage is just so dang easy (grab a martial two-hander, have decent Strength) and we're trying to find a way for a Soulknife to keep up with a standard Barbarian or other martial combat type.

[Waker]

At worst, it's one full-round action before combat starts, so it's one free +2d6 damage strike.

If you pick feats well, it's quite possible to start refreshing your Psi Focus as a Move action around level 6, at which point you've got a once-per-turn attack that can deal decent damage.
So they can at the low cost of two feats and a move action, add the damage of a greatsword to your attack. While the Soulborn just...makes two attacks with a greatsword?


Heh, Soulknife can get those too, thanks to http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070214a
Oh wait, Soulknife gets more.
Sorry Soulborn.
Man, I got totally owned. My emotional state is lower than my expectations for a new player using a monk.


Bluh, I can't believe I'm actually defending this awful class...
You seem oddly adversarial about the whole thing.

[Nifft]

So they can at the low cost of two feats and a move action, add the damage of a greatsword to your attack. While the Soulborn just...makes two attacks with a greatsword? Unless you want to move, or your 2nd attack (at -5) misses.

Level 6 is probably when the Soulknife retrains for ranged combat anyway, since aiming for Soulbow is usually a better use of levels -- or you aim for Deep Impact, and start making really nasty once-per-turn Power Attack strikes at level 7.

So... you are kinda correct that Psionic Weapon stops being a great tactic around level 6, but that's either irrelevant (because your tactics are changing to ranged), or it's tangential (because your goal is Deep Impact).


Man, I got totally owned. My emotional state is lower than my expectations for a new player using a monk.

You seem oddly adversarial about the whole thing.
I started just asking questions, which I had hoped would justify your difference of opinion.

If asking you to justify your assertions is too aggressive ... man, good luck out there.

[Waker]

Unless you want to move, or your 2nd attack (at -5) misses.

Level 6 is probably when the Soulknife retrains for ranged combat anyway, since aiming for Soulbow is usually a better use of levels -- or you aim for Deep Impact, and start making really nasty once-per-turn Power Attack strikes at level 7.

So... you are kinda correct that Psionic Weapon stops being a great tactic around level 6, but that's either irrelevant (because your tactics are changing to ranged), or it's tangential (because your goal is Deep Impact).
Lack of movement and having your second attack miss is a concern, but needing to gain psionic focus+ standard attack action is going to be comparable with the same full-round action required. The difference being that the Soulborn has full bab and hasn't spent two feats on a situational attack option.
Soulbow talk is something outside the purview of this conversation, since the OP is simply asking about Soulknife itself.
Deep Impact seems like a good feat, but you are still hampered by the move action+standard action
routine. After the initial round of combat, you are basically forgoing the opportunity to make iterative attacks (which admittedly isn't great for a Soulknife) to one attack that is very likely to hit.


I started just asking questions, which I had hoped would justify your difference of opinion.

If asking you to justify your assertions is too aggressive ... man, good luck out there.

You think Cobalt Power is stronger than Psionic Weapon?

Also, you seem to think [Incarnum] feats can't be taken by anyone -- is that true?

What I'm actually asking is: Waker, why do you seem to think otherwise?
You seem to have the habit of putting words into people's mouths and imply they have said things they haven't.

Soulborn have no special access to [Incarnum] feats.
In contrast, Soulknife does have special access to [Psionic] feats.
And not quite the same, but you overlooking the standard features of a class while failing to mention that you were using an ACF for another seems like you were baiting me, as you didn't clarify until after I made my argument.

[ColorBlindNinja]

All you need to take Psionic feats is Hidden/Wild Talent.

[Nifft]

Lack of movement and having your second attack miss is a concern, but needing to gain psionic focus+ standard attack action is going to be comparable with the same full-round action required. The difference being that the Soulborn has full bab and hasn't spent two feats on a situational attack option.
Soulbow talk is something outside the purview of this conversation, since the OP is simply asking about Soulknife itself.
Deep Impact seems like a good feat, but you are still hampered by the move action+standard action
routine. After the initial round of combat, you are basically forgoing the opportunity to make iterative attacks (which admittedly isn't great for a Soulknife) to one attack that is very likely to hit.
Soulbow is within the purview of this conversation.

Soulknife has value specifically because it can be used to qualify for something decent -- specifically, for Soulbow.

As an example, CW Samurai class features are worse than the bonus feats they replace because they cannot be used to replace prerequisite feats.

Iterative attacks are good for two kinds of characters: Pounce-chargers (for whom a plethora of Natural Attacks is generally going to overshadow your iteratives), and Ranged attackers (for whom Rapid Shot applies).

Soulknife is not a tanking class, so a well-built Souknife should probably tend towards more of a skirmisher style. Comparing a Soulknife to someone who engages in toe-to-toe slugfest style of combat will not end well -- it's like saying a Soulknife has a low caster level. Technically true, but generally missing the point.



You seem to have the habit of putting words into people's mouths and imply they have said things they haven't.

And not quite the same, but you overlooking the standard features of a class while failing to mention that you were using an ACF for another seems like you were baiting me, as you didn't clarify until after I made my argument.

You've been saying things that seem absurd.

That means at least one of us is wrong about at least one thing.

I've been trying to figure out who is wrong, and about what.

Do you honestly think that asking you to justify & explain your position is "baiting"?

Anyway, even without the ACF, a Soulknife gets 2 bonus (bad) feats at level 1, Speed of Thought at level 6, another (bad) feat at level 9, and even a virtual Whirlwind Attack at level 9 -- without needing to pay for the prereqs.

Soulknife without the ACF beats Soulborn in terms of number of free (bad) feats.

[Waker]

Soulbow is within the purview of this conversation.

Soulknife has value specifically because it can be used to qualify for something decent -- specifically, for Soulbow.
Except that the OP just wanted to know if there was a weaker class than Soulknife.


Iterative attacks are good for two kinds of characters: Pounce-chargers (for whom a plethora of Natural Attacks is generally going to overshadow your iteratives), and Ranged attackers (for whom Rapid Shot applies).

Soulknife is not a tanking class, so a well-built Souknife should probably tend towards more of a skirmisher style. Comparing a Soulknife to someone who engages in toe-to-toe slugfest style of combat will not end well -- it's like saying a Soulknife has a low caster level. Technically true, but generally missing the point.
The how is not something I'm terribly focused upon so much as the end result. If you are a skirmisher or a toe-to-toe slugger, the damage is the important thing. Either way it doesn't change the fact that a full-round attack vs a move+standard action is going to be the same in most combat situations. Whenever you want to use the Psychic Weapon/Deep Impact attack, you'll need to spend an action prepping it, precluding a full-round attack or the movement needed to get to your target.


You've been saying things that seem absurd.
What have I said that is absurd? When I brought up Cobalt Power, you went off on a tangent claiming that I said no one but Soulborn was allowed to take Incarnum feats.
When I say that Soulborns might take Incarnum feats because they get bonus Incarnum feats and the essentia to improve upon them, you talk about how they can't invest more than the essentia cap. And then say that Soulborn has no special access to Incarnum feats. Followed by how Soulknife can take Psionic feats, which is something I never contested.

[Hackulator]

Except that the OP just wanted to know if there was a weaker class than Soulknife.



Have to back him up, Soulbow is outside the purview of this thread.

[ericgrau]

Well I think the one possibility for redemption is maybe in mild optimization groups getting +1/4 WBL is a lot. With this level of optimization in mind, how does +1/4 WBL compare to, well, having actual class features?

That plus it has a fairly decent ranged backup attack while most melee has a poor ranged backup attack if any. As Roy is seeing right now.

[Hackulator]

Well I think the one possibility for redemption is maybe in mild optimization groups getting +1/4 WBL is a lot. With this level of optimization in mind, how does +1/4 WBL compare to, well, having actual class features?

That plus it has a fairly decent ranged backup attack while most melee has a poor ranged backup attack if any. As Roy is seeing right now.

Except a Samurai with full BAB and a longbow can probably do better, and definitely has better range.

[ericgrau]

Except a Samurai with full BAB and a longbow can probably do better, and definitely has better range.

Paying for 2 strong magic weapons is hard though. Then you might as well say the Soulknife effectively gets +1/2 WBL. Which really isn't true since it's a bad idea to spend your gold like that. But point is a samurai with a longbow doesn't qualify as a strong ranged backup. It's a weak ranged backup because you better not be spending money enchanting that longbow. It's still a composite longbow which isn't bad though, especially for the first 10 levels.

Anywhoo the main question was the +1/4 WBL vs actual class features in low op. The ranged backup weapon is a pretty minor feature.

[Hackulator]

Paying for 2 strong magic weapons is hard though. Then you might as well say the Soulknife effectively gets +1/2 WBL. Which really isn't true since it's a bad idea to spend your gold like that. But point is a samurai with a longbow doesn't qualify as a strong ranged backup. It's a weak ranged backup because you better not be spending money enchanting that longbow. It's still a composite longbow which isn't bad though, especially for the first 10 levels.

Considering that a soulknife can't full attack with his mindblade til level 17, I'd say a samurai with a masterwork composite longbow can outdamage a lot soulknives throwing their mind blade. He also has almost quadruple their range.

[Lans]

How much damage do you expect the samurai to do with a long bow at, lets say 5,6,10,11,15,16

[Hackulator]

How much damage do you expect the samurai to do with a long bow at, lets say 5,6,10,11,15,16

If you want to get into numbers, find my "Samurai vs Soulknife: the Ultimate SHowdown" thread and if I get enough people we'll actually do some testing.

[The Viscount]

Not to distract from the Soulkinfe vs CW Samurai path we're taking, but what about OA Samurai? If we let Soulknife use the ACF to trade psychic strike for feats (there is barely any restriction on those feats) then we have less of an apples and oranges comparison. OA Samurai has an ancestral relic for discounted magic abilities of its own, has 4 skills with a usable list, and also has 2 good saves. Does its full BA make up for its very restricted list for bonus feats?

I'd like to weigh in on the soulborn issue here. Yes, any character can take an incarnum feat, but for a soulborn each one of those feats mean 1 more essentia that they can use for melds, which they can always use. A soulborn taking multiple incarnum feats gets the benefit on an increased pool for each, so they are summative. A soulknife taking psionic feats firstly has to actually spend the feats on them (unless you're using your bonus feats on them, in which case you have to use ones that affect your weapon, and you could probably find a better option for). Furthermore, psionic feats typically involve either being psionically focused or expending your focus. You can't benefit from both kinds of feats at the same time, and you can't expend your focus to power more than one feat at a time, so the only way for them to be summative instead of branching is for you to only take maintaining feats.
People like to joke about soulborn's uselessness, and while it's true that they have fewer melds, binds, and essentia than the other two, they do have a few unique melds. Fearsome Mask and Gloves of the Poisoned Soul can be useful, and if you're dragonblooded you have claws of the wyrm for 1d6 claws on shaped. Thunderstep Boots is a meld that is understood to be quite nice. Also remember that soulborn can take the Open Chakra feats for more binds and faster access to bind slots.
If it's worth mentioning that Soulknife can enter Soulbow, then it's worth mentioning that Soulborn can enter Necrocarnate with the right skill investment, gaining more essentia and faster binds.
Just as an overall view, soulborn does still have access to a variety of melds that give it versatility and variety, which is how the relative goodness of a class is typically measured.

[Eldariel]

Secondary question, shouldn't psychic warrior and soulknife really just be one gestalted class?

There's a Mind's Eye ACF that lets a Psy War get a Mindbladeish thing. So they really are already. Just WotC forgot to delete the old Soulknife.

[Nifft]

Except that the OP just wanted to know if there was a weaker class than Soulknife.
Except having better exit options makes one of them stronger.

The fact that CW Samurai gets inflexible virtual feats means they're weaker than Fighters, who at least can use their feats as prerequisites.

Note that, again, talking about how a class expands your options for entering a better prestige class is part of the relative class power. Fighters can do this reasonably well; CW Samurai cannot, and that makes the CW Samurai weaker.

This is like how a Wildshape Ranger is in a different tier than a regular Ranger. It's because Wildshape opens up PrCs like Master of Many Forms, which turns you from a limited-option mostly-mundane pedestrian into a terrifyingly titanic tower of pulsating preternatural puissance, and also you get a lot of versatile & flexible capabilities.



There's a Mind's Eye ACF that lets a Psy War get a Mindbladeish thing. So they really are already. Just WotC forgot to delete the old Soulknife.

There's also an obscure-but-official Dark Sun version of the Soulknife which is a PrC that has full BAB, and gives most of the XPH class features over just 10 levels.

[ColorBlindNinja]

There's also an obscure-but-official Dark Sun version of the Soulknife which is a PrC that has full BAB, and gives most of the XPH class features over just 10 levels.

Is that in the issue of Dragon Magazine that contains Dark Sun material?

[Nifft]

Is that in the issue of Dragon Magazine that contains Dark Sun material?

The one I'm talking about comes from another source, but if you tell me the issue, I can see if it's similar.

[ColorBlindNinja]

The one I'm talking about comes from another source, but if you tell me the issue, I can see if it's similar.

I just checked the issue I had in mind (#319), and Soulknives appear to be the same as the ones in the Expanded Psionics Handbook.

Were you talking about the Dark Sun update that you download from this website? (http://www.athas.org/)

[Bonzai]

I've played a Soulborn to level 15 straight, and it was probably the biggest grind I ever trudged through. My biggest complaint? No way to swap melds pre-epic. The class is limited, but it does have some utility. The problem is you will never get to use it unless you know what your fighting in advance. So this further limits you to your daily buffs, and it just gets really stale after a while.

I've played a true namer to lvl 15. It was actually ok with optimization. You have insane healing, mediocre but untyped damage, some useful and even unique abilities. My main complaint was that I couldn't effect more than one target at a time until near capstone level. If I could just buff my party, the class would be pretty decent.

Another class I played 8 levels of that should be mentioned is the shadow caster. I built mine as a gish, and it turned out to be a good thing as an early lvl caster it was pretty pathetic. I don't see how they manage in the early levels acting as a proper caster.

I have seen Soulknife played before, and I don't think they are as bad as a soul born. They have skills and get something every level, which is nice.

[Nifft]

I just checked the issue I had in mind (#319), and Soulknives appear to be the same as the ones in the Expanded Psionics Handbook.

Were you talking about the Dark Sun update that you download from this website?/ (http://www.athas.org/)

Yeah, I think that's where it's from.

They've got 2 PDFs with obscure-but-official contents.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Yeah, I think that's where it's from.

They've got 2 PDFs with obscure-but-official contents.

OK, thanks for clearing that up.

[Lans]

There's also an obscure-but-official Dark Sun version of the Soulknife which is a PrC that has full BAB, and gives most of the XPH class features over just 10 levels.

Is this different from the 3.0 version,?

[emeraldstreak]

Monks have defensive advantages that Soulknives don't.

Monks have offensive advantages few have, namely unarmed strike optimization.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Monks have offensive advantages few have, namely unarmed strike optimization.

What about Unarmed Swordsage?

[ShurikVch]

What base class is weaker than soulknife?Noble from Dragonlance Campaign Setting?

[Eldariel]

What about Unarmed Swordsage?

Certainly other classes have it, but it's at least a notable feature of the Monk, a solid advantage over classes without any advantages. Though it comes online rather late far as martial abilities go: most martials peak around 6 but by level 6, even with buffs, Monk UA Strike is barely better than any old 3gp weapon with comparative resource (feat) investment (let alone without buffs). Frankly, I'd consider Invisible Fist the one big non-Dragon Magazine thing making Monks not-so-terrible compared to the most horrible classes in the game. Dragon Magazine with its Wild Monk, Chaos Monk, Martial Monk, etc. is of course a veritable goldmine for Monks.

[Dagroth]

Interesting. I thought the Full BAB is still much better. At least the Samurai will hit something. They can hope to use the mainstay of the Melee class, Power attack, better than the soul knife. What a truly optimised charger can do, they can do to, just later in the game.

WotC has always over-valued Full BAB, IMHO.


At the first 4 levels, there's no difference, because the free bad feat the Soulknife gets is Weapon Focus (mindblade).

They have equal attack bonus until level... 5? No wait, no they don't, because the Soulknife got a +1 enhancement bonus at level 4. So the CW Samurai's attack bonus is one behind at level 4, and only catches up at level 5. Unless the CW Samurai got a magic bastard sword before level 5, I guess. But then the Soulknife could have gotten a Mindblade Gauntlet (MIC) to remain ahead.

CW Samurai is worse in almost every particular area.

You don't need a +1 Bonus... Masterwork gives you the +1 to hit for less than 1/3 the cost.


Considering that a soulknife can't full attack with his mindblade til level 17, I'd say a samurai with a masterwork composite longbow can outdamage a lot soulknives throwing their mind blade. He also has almost quadruple their range.

Most AD&D combat takes place at less than 100 yards.

[Gnaeus]

Not sure if this is on target or not, but it's not awful in Tier 5 as a gestalt. Free weapon stacks well with any class that uses a weapon. Weapon focus as well, and is a prerequisite for other feats. Opening the psionic door can be useful. 2 good saves. Not awful skill list. Psychic strike is kind of cool if you have standard action maneuver strikes.

I'd much rather have a warblade//soulknife than a warblade//samurai for example.

[Hackulator]

Not sure if this is on target or not, but it's not awful in Tier 5 as a gestalt. Free weapon stacks well with any class that uses a weapon. Weapon focus as well, and is a prerequisite for other feats. Opening the psionic door can be useful. 2 good saves. Not awful skill list. Psychic strike is kind of cool if you have standard action maneuver strikes.

I'd much rather have a warblade//soulknife than a warblade//samurai for example.

I mean, without question it makes a pretty good gestalt for a martial character who doesn't want to gestalt with a caster class. However, that doesn't make it a good base class.

[Nifft]

Not sure if this is on target or not, but it's not awful in Tier 5 as a gestalt. Free weapon stacks well with any class that uses a weapon. Weapon focus as well, and is a prerequisite for other feats. Opening the psionic door can be useful. 2 good saves. Not awful skill list. Psychic strike is kind of cool if you have standard action maneuver strikes.

I'd much rather have a warblade//soulknife than a warblade//samurai for example.

Yeah, and the d10 HD is good, and the 4+Int skill points from a list with Autohypnosis, stealth, perception, and Tumble, and the 2 good saves, and the passive features like Speed of Thought... Soulknife has a decent foundation, it's just got a poor primary class feature stapled on top.

Wizard // Soulknife is fine even if you never manifest your mindblade, for example, just because the d10 HD and skills and bonus save are all solid -- but you do get your mindblade, so after level 2 you can use it like you'd use a crossbow, and that means you save on having to buy a magical crossbow or a [Reserve] feat. Not the most powerful use of an action, but it might be an efficient way to save your spells for when they're most needed, and that in itself is very powerful.

Incarnate // Soulknife is another surprisingly decent mix.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Incarnate // Soulknife is another surprisingly decent mix.
Surprises the heck out of me, because the Incarnate can already replace the Soulknife's entire shtick with a single meld.

[ottdmk]

To be fair to the Soulknife, they get to put enhancements on their Mind Blade like Keen or Defending, etc. Incarnate Weapon is great, but all you can do with it is add Enhancement Bonuses (admittedly up to +7 @L18 if you take an Expanded Soulmeld Capacity feat) and the Stun effect from the bind.

[ColorBlindNinja]

To be fair to the Soulknife, they get to put enhancements on their Mind Blade like Keen or Defending, etc. Incarnate Weapon is great, but all you can do with it is add Enhancement Bonuses (admittedly up to +7 @L18 if you take an Expanded Soulmeld Capacity feat) and the Stun effect from the bind.

You can get Incarnum Weapon from a feat; that's probably better than taking a dip in Soulknife.

[Grod_The_Giant]

To be fair to the Soulknife, they get to put enhancements on their Mind Blade like Keen or Defending, etc. Incarnate Weapon is great, but all you can do with it is add Enhancement Bonuses (admittedly up to +7 @L18 if you take an Expanded Soulmeld Capacity feat) and the Stun effect from the bind.
To be unfair, the enhancements aren't that good, and save-or-stun is about a hundred times better return on your investment than a few d8.

[ottdmk]

Well Nifft was saying that Incarnate/Soulknife worked as a Gestalt build. Grod felt that an Incarnate could replace a Soulknife with a single Meld, which I assume to be Incarnate Weapon. I was just pointing out that a Soulknife's Mind Blade does have some advantages over Incarnate Weapon.

As far as taking Shape Soulmeld (Incarnate Weapon): the only problem is that without Essentia to power it, Incarnate Weapon is just a mundane weapon. It's not one of the better Soulmelds to take if you're not playing a Meldshaper.


To be unfair, the enhancements aren't that good, and save-or-stun is about a hundred times better return on your investment than a few d8.You're probably not wrong. I'm just saying that the other enhancements make the mind blade a little more interesting. Plus they aren't dependent on your opponent being of the opposite alignment (at least partially) like the stun-or-save.

[Nifft]

Surprises the heck out of me, because the Incarnate can already replace the Soulknife's entire shtick with a single meld.

Not the part of the shtick that I spent the rest of my post describing:
- d10 HD
- better skill list
- 4+Int per level
- passive features like Speed of Thought

Incarnate cannot duplicate those trivially.

The main class feature is indeed lacking, but that's not the point of my post.

@Grod - you're usually one of the more insightful posters, so I'm curious why you'd post something that deliberately mis-understands my whole point.

[ottdmk]

Hmnn. Reading that list, yeah, Gestalting the Soulknife with Incarnate does a fair bit to shore up the Incarnate's weak points. In Gestalt, which BAB do you use? Better of the two? Never read Unearthed Arcana, so I don't know.

[Nifft]

Hmnn. Reading that list, yeah, Gestalting the Soulknife with Incarnate does a fair bit to shore up the Incarnate's weak points. In Gestalt, which BAB do you use? Better of the two? Never read Unearthed Arcana, so I don't know.

Better of the two for each specific ability:
- Skills (better points, union of skill sets)
- HD
- BAB
- each save
- class features

You can read about it here: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/gestaltCharacters.htm

[ColorBlindNinja]

Hmnn. Reading that list, yeah, Gestalting the Soulknife with Incarnate does a fair bit to shore up the Incarnate's weak points. In Gestalt, which BAB do you use? Better of the two? Never read Unearthed Arcana, so I don't know.

Yep, the better of the two, same with Saving Throws.

[ottdmk]

Interesting. Learn something new every day. Thanks for the link; I didn't think any of the UA stuff was in the SRD, but I have no idea why I thought that.

[Nifft]

Better of the two for each specific ability:
- Skills (better points, union of skill sets)
- HD
- BAB
- each save
- class features

You can read about it here: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/gestaltCharacters.htm

Just to add to this, there are some popular variants like Gestalt + E6, which is neat because you easily get a generalist who can compete with specialists.

There's also crazy stuff like "Template LA only applies to one side" or "Monster HD + LA only apply to one side", which are probably OP and broken -- but as long as all the PCs are similarly OP, that's not necessarily a problem.


Interesting. Learn something new every day. Thanks for the link; I didn't think any of the UA stuff was in the SRD, but I have no idea why I thought that.

The majority of UA stuff is in the d20 SRD -- it's all OGL, presumably with the idea that it would help 3rd party publishers who wanted "official" Vitality / Wound or "official" Action Points (but not Eberron™ Action Points, those are probably PI).

Many popular ACFs are also from UA, stuff like the Wildshape Ranger or the Rapid Summoning Conjurer.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Not the part of the shtick that I spent the rest of my post describing:
- d10 HD
- better skill list
- 4+Int per level
- passive features like Speed of Thought

Incarnate cannot duplicate those trivially.

The main class feature is indeed lacking, but that's not the point of my post.

@Grod - you're usually one of the more insightful posters, so I'm curious why you'd post something that deliberately mis-understands my whole point.
Sure, but you know what other class offers upgraded HD, skill list, medium BAB and 4+Int skill points? The Aristocrat. Plus you get heavy armor and martial weapons, which I think beats out things like Speed of Thought. It's not that the Soulblade's chassis is bad, as such; it's just not enough.

[Nifft]

Surprises the heck out of me, because the Incarnate can already replace the Soulknife's entire shtick with a single meld.


Sure, but you know what other class offers upgraded HD, skill list, medium BAB and 4+Int skill points? The Aristocrat. Plus you get heavy armor and martial weapons, which I think beats out things like Speed of Thought. It's not that the Soulblade's chassis is bad, as such; it's just not enough.

"Not enough" for what?

It's unrelated to the point you were previously trying to make, so...

I guess all you're trying to say is "Soulknife Bad", and yes, we agree: Soulknife bad.

That said, there are still some potential uses for this (bad) class, so I hope it doesn't bother you that some of us want to discuss those.

[mabriss lethe]

The soulknife has a comparatively high optimization ceiling, but you really, I mean *really* have to work for it. Their floor is abysmally low, though.

-Their ACFs and racial sub levels do an OK job of making them more playable in general, and the hidden talent one is part of the key to opening them up as bootstrap manifesters, which can help with other things as well. I'll lay that one out. First you need a way to get a psi-like ability. What it is and how you get it doesn't matter. You just need one. Kalashtar is my go-to choice, but maenads, half giants, host feats, and those weird psionic house variants in C.Psi all get the job done. So yeah, you have your psi-like. Taking the Hidden talent ACF gives you that feat instead of wild talent. That, in itself normally wouldn't be much more than a minor bump, but HT will explicitly bind to an existing manifester level, and according to C.Psi, all manifester levels are treated equally, regardless of source. So now you've got a power and a proper manifester level based on your HD. The combination of the those two means that you qualify for bonus PP based on your primary manifesting stat. It won't be a lot of PP, that's for sure, but it will be enough to pop out a few surprises. It also makes the use of your suppression mindblade enhancement more powerful, if you decide that being able to spam targeted dispels is something you're into. (It's great with a thrown mindblade fwiw).

Once you qualify for all that, The Kalashtar Mindlink feat will improve your manifester level of your PLA and all your associated powers from 1/2 HD to full HD. (hence one of the reasons they're my first choice) From here on out there are several ways to add more powers to your toolbox, but my favorite is the illithid heritage feat chain. You get a handful of rather nice and useful powers of levels that you can still use even with your relatively slim PP reserve along with some other useful abilities, depending on which feats you snag for prerequisite purposes. Doing all of that will leave you strapped for feats, but all is not lost. You have options there too, which brings us to......

Your other really nice ACF lets you swap out your psychic strike feature for a very loosely worded list of bonus feats. It's a rather nice way to pick up some psionic fighting feats like Psychic weapon/ deep impact. You know what you can also pick up with that? Martial Study and Stance. A handful of low level maneuvers coupled with instant clarity and psychic renewal, along with a few choice powers, and you become significantly more useful. (I'm fond of picking up assassin's stance and craven)

-They do require a good bit of item assistance to bring out their full power. Adamantine mindblade gauntlets allow them to shuffle their mindblade abilities at will as a side effect of the item's wonky wording. The Mau jehe and (non adamantine) mindblade gauntlet allow them to overclock the thing well into epic weapon territory. Warforged graft arms (the name escapes me) allows access to certain warforged components, one is a device that grants the use of an unaugmented power 1/day as long as you pay the normal pp cost. Psychic Reformation comes to mind for that little guy. The jury is out on how overclocking would mesh with the wording on Adamantine Mindblade, but it might be possible to swap out the enhancements granted through overclocking with items. (note, combining the AMG with the standard MGs requires item stacking rules.)

Your mindblade itself often has a lot of overlooked potential, mostly due to the ridiculous amount of time normally needed to swap enhancement. If you can only choose one configuration, it's going to be the one that does the most damage unless you have enough forewarning to plan ahead. The Adamantine Knuckle Shuffle, however lets you tap your mindblade's full potential. Your basic suite of damage dealers will still be your bread and butter, but being able to throw a suppressing mindblade (augmented by a proper manifester level for added punch) could completely change the dynamic of a fight against a buffed up boss. Keen combined with your Xfeeder and Breaker abilities can make for a passable crit fisher setup. Coup de Grace a fallen foe with a mindfeeder, and suddenly you've got a crap ton of power points to spare for throwing around those powers you've picked up. Mindcrusher can be used against other psionic characters to good effect, but it also is a good weapon to pull out if faced with a divine caster. Weapons that deal wisdom damage are pretty rare.

Bladewind! Let's talk about bladewind! Out of the box, it's bad..bad..bad. Basically Whirlwind attack with all the bad that comes with being surrounded by a lot of enemies. But! it's not quite like Whirlwind attack. Each fragment of the bladewind will function identically to your normal mindblade. Optimizing your reach with it (through any of a number of methods) will let you hit a lot of people with a lot of rider effects, like, say, poison. Sadly,FAQ says it doesn't apply to psychic strike, but FAQ isn't RAW and is often dead wrong, so check with a DM. Improving your reach, combined with your native stealth skills to set up a mass sneak attack with rider effects nets you a fairly useful almost-area debuff, and the potential to soften up a lot of enemies at once. It also combines well with deep impact and power attack.

Your skills: You don't get a lot points for them, and Intelligence really isn't a priority, so you'll have to choose wisely. Concentration is gold for all psionic characters for psionic focus purposes, you may not need it maxed out, but you want it high enough to hit your focus DC reliably. Autohypnosis grants you a lot of very useful goodies that make you harder to take out of a fight. Hide/ Move silent/ Tumble are all great battlefield skills especially coupled with something like a collar of umbral metamorphosis for HiPS. You'll always want at least a few ranks in spot and listen. So you can be a comparatively functional acrobatic sneak that can mitigate or ignore a lot of "bad things"

So yeah, it's like squeezing blood from a stone, and the end result is a not terribly great jack of all trades that doesn't quite measure up to a Psychic Warrior except for the speed of swapping enhancements. It is, at its highest end of optimization, rather more powerful than you'd expect from everyone carping about how bad it is. Definitely not the bottom of the heap if pushed to its maximum capacity.