Samurai vs Soulknife: The Ultimate Showdown

[Hackulator]

Ok so the prevailing though seems to be that the only class that might be less powerful than Soulknife is the CW Samurai. I suggest a showdown between the two classes to determine who really is the worst.

We'll need people interested in playing both classes, as I plan to have them fight at multiple levels. We'll have to decide exactly which levels. If you think Soulknife is the worst, volunteer to play a Samurai. If you think Samurai is the worst, volunteer to play a Soulknife.

I think we should do normal WBL, with no more than half your wealth spent on a single item.

Do we need any specific scenario other than just an arena fight?

Thoughts? Anyone interested?

Please note, these will be STRAIGHT Soulknife and Samurai, no multiclassing.

[logic_error]

Not an expert on these things. But I can feel that the Samurai will simply end up hitting more often. But the soul knife has a higher damage potential at low levels due to Psionic weapon + Wis 13 Psionic meditation.

[tyckspoon]

I'll be interested to see if this manages to go off, but my best actual prediction.. neither Samurai nor Soulknife have much in the way of relevant class features. Therefore, especially at higher levels, I expect these fights will be determined almost entirely by the equipment and feat choices of the combatants. I also suspect they're likely to look quite similar in that respect, since they both want roughly the same things out of their equipment. Soulknife's main feature may give him an edge there, in that the mindblade potentially frees up a significant amount of money.

For the record, I think Samurai is just that little bit worse off than Soulknife, and I'd be willing to attempt to provide a Soulknife of up to level 5 to compete in that level range.

[Nifft]

We'll need people interested in playing both classes, as I plan to have them fight at multiple levels. We'll have to decide exactly which levels.

I would suggest that, instead of "having them fight", you might want to have them participate in something more like a Same Game Test.

Alternately, you could see how many niches each build could fill, based on Person_Man's Niche Ranking System (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?314701-Person_Man-s-Niche-Ranking-System).

[Sagetim]

Well, knife to the soul can open up the potential of knocking the samurai out with just raw stat damage to a mental stat before he can chew through the soulknife's d10's of hp at higher level. I say potentially because it's 4 am and I'm just trying to point out that Soulknife May have relevant class features to determining this fight, especially if it's obvious that the samurai like, dumped int or something.

You didn't mention how stats are being determined, are you assuming the elite array of like, 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8? or point buy or what?

Also, what races are available, any magazine or online articles, etc. Define what sources count as legal for this challenge, beyond just straight levels in the base class in question. Further, it might help to have a few different maps culled from map a week to try running these in, since just going with an arena fight with no cover or anything else may present too bland a location to let either class take advantage of their abilities and or gear based gimmickry.

[The Viscount]

I'm down to build the Samurai, let me know what our pointbuy and race limits are, and if there's any limits on sourcebooks. Looking forward to it. I'd like to have maybe a few encounters at different levels, since samurai is rather backloaded.

[Eldariel]

I recommend running a Same Game Test for them instead of a deathmatch. 1v1 fighting prowess is rarely an indicator of how useful a class is overall, though both of them do of course suck majorly in that one regard as well.

[The Viscount]

We could always do both. Same Game will definitely be a better test of overall performance, but it could be fun to have the spectacle of something like the old test of spite.

[flappeercraft]

I might volunteer but I want to know some things before I do so.

1. Is UMD banned? I'm guessing it probably is due to the nature of this contest.
2. Are we using only printed magic items or are DMG guidelines for creating magic items open?
3. What are sources allowed? Are we able to use setting specific sources at all?
4. What about generating ability scores? PB or elite monster stats?
5. What about template and race limitations? Are there any?
6. How much cheese can be involved? I'm assuming no pun pun crap but how far are we allowed to go?
7. What variants rules are in place?
8. Are we going through rules with RAW, RAI or a mix of both?
9. What are the limitations on effects like DCFS and Psychic reformation? Can we use those for racial feats such as the elf proficiencies or for bonus feats such as those given by the soulknife?
10. What other rules are involved?

[Zaq]

I know that the canonical version (https://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html?id=529142) of ShneekeyTheLost's Takahashi no Onisan has some light multiclassing, but I believe that the fundamental combo works as a straight-class Samurai (just a bit less efficiently). It's primarily a one-trick gimmick build, but it's a damn good gimmick build considering what it starts with. I'm not certain that a straight-class Soulknife has an equivalent. Based on that, we could argue that Samurai might have a higher ceiling than Soulknife does.

If you don't count gimmick builds, eh, I don't particularly care enough to get personally involved. Still, Takahashi is a nice piece of optimization, so I feel that it's worth bringing up the build.

[DEMON]

I know! Let's have them both fight a Pit Fiend. :smallcool:

[flappeercraft]

I know! Let's have them both fight a Pit Fiend. :smallcool:

With some optimization they could end the pit fiend in less than a round probably. Maybe 2 if they are prepared for that specifically and with some favorable circumstances.

[The Viscount]

I know that the canonical version (https://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html?id=529142) of ShneekeyTheLost's Takahashi no Onisan has some light multiclassing, but I believe that the fundamental combo works as a straight-class Samurai (just a bit less efficiently). It's primarily a one-trick gimmick build, but it's a damn good gimmick build considering what it starts with. I'm not certain that a straight-class Soulknife has an equivalent. Based on that, we could argue that Samurai might have a higher ceiling than Soulknife does.

If you don't count gimmick builds, eh, I don't particularly care enough to get personally involved. Still, Takahashi is a nice piece of optimization, so I feel that it's worth bringing up the build.

It's funny, that build is exactly why I signed up for samurai, because I'd seen that it works.

[Hackulator]

We might also want to do the same game, but since these are both martial classes I feel that direct combat is still fairly helpful for the discussion. Fighting another martial/physical(ish) type combatant is what these classes should probably have the best shot at anyway.


I might volunteer but I want to know some things before I do so.

1. Is UMD banned? I'm guessing it probably is due to the nature of this contest.
2. Are we using only printed magic items or are DMG guidelines for creating magic items open?
3. What are sources allowed? Are we able to use setting specific sources at all?
4. What about generating ability scores? PB or elite monster stats?
5. What about template and race limitations? Are there any?
6. How much cheese can be involved? I'm assuming no pun pun crap but how far are we allowed to go?
7. What variants rules are in place?
8. Are we going through rules with RAW, RAI or a mix of both?
9. What are the limitations on effects like DCFS and Psychic reformation? Can we use those for racial feats such as the elf proficiencies or for bonus feats such as those given by the soulknife?
10. What other rules are involved?

1+2- No UMD, no custom magic items, this is to test the class features, not test how good people are at abusing UMD or creation rules

3 - Not sure yet

4 - Either elite array or point buy, what do people think?

5 - I think basic races, at least to start

6 - Any "cheese" should still be related to the classes' strengths. This is an attempt to test the classes themselves, not just your ability to break the feat system with some weird combo that is totally unrelated to the class features. You're not multiclassing so a lot of cheese is just not possible

7 - None

8 - Generally RAI where there is minimal argument, RAW as the final arbiter if there's no agreement?

9 - Whats DCFS? You can't possible use Psychic Reformation. If you want to use WBL AND XP to pay to be psychically reformed, you theoretically could but I think RAI is that you can't switch to any feat you couldn't have taken originally so that won't be at all useful in this competition.

10 - I dunno yet, nothing off the top of my head other than the specific scenario we drop them into.

[noce]

At level 14 and above the Samurai wins every fight in which he wins initiative, and every fight in which he loses initiative but survives the first round, provided that the Soulknife is not immune to fear.

1. Take Imperious Command.
2. Every point of WBL goes to raising Intimidate and Initiative.
3. You win.

So I propose to just declare Samurai stronger from level 14 onwards.

[Psionic Dog]

Make a note everyone: any soulknife L14+ needs maxed out Autohypnosis (if Imperious Command is in the valid source list).

[Psyren]

At level 14 and above the Samurai wins every fight in which he wins initiative, and every fight in which he loses initiative but survives the first round, provided that the Soulknife is not immune to fear.

Soulknives get Autohypnosis as a class skill, which they can activate even if the Samurai goes first. And while panicking and flinging your weapons away is a problem for most other martial classes...

[mabriss lethe]

I know that the canonical version (https://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html?id=529142) of ShneekeyTheLost's Takahashi no Onisan has some light multiclassing, but I believe that the fundamental combo works as a straight-class Samurai (just a bit less efficiently). It's primarily a one-trick gimmick build, but it's a damn good gimmick build considering what it starts with. I'm not certain that a straight-class Soulknife has an equivalent. Based on that, we could argue that Samurai might have a higher ceiling than Soulknife does.

If you don't count gimmick builds, eh, I don't particularly care enough to get personally involved. Still, Takahashi is a nice piece of optimization, so I feel that it's worth bringing up the build.

Straight soulknife can become a bootstrap manifester fairly easily. So, it's got that going for it.

[The Viscount]

DCFS refers to the dark chaos feat shuffle, an old TO trick from Tippy. It involves casting embrace the dark chaos followed by shun the dark chaos, the end effect being that you can turn any feat you have into any other feat you qualify for. Classically it's used on an elf to turn all their racial weapon proficiencies into bonus feats.

Does no variant rules also mean no ACFs?

[flappeercraft]

Then I would be interested in playing Soulknife.

I assume for the purpose of this excercise we should not make any candle of invocation cheese. But could they be used for +5 Inherent bonus to all stats?

[Eldariel]

Then I would be interested in playing Soulknife.

I assume for the purpose of this excercise we should not make any candle of invocation cheese. But could they be used for +5 Inherent bonus to all stats?

I don't think using wish-loops in any shape or form (or any other loops for that matter) is indicative of the abilities of the class. Just pay for the tome if you want those bonuses. Likewise, I don't think item wizardry - that is, replicating the abilities of a caster with items is really the point. While WBL is probably necessary, the point is to measure what value the classes and their abilities have. Thus, I trust in your ability to determine what the Soulknife chassis is all about and thus build around it (same with the CW Samurai). Your baseline tactic shouldn't be something a Commoner can do just as well.

[flappeercraft]

I don't think using wish-loops in any shape or form (or any other loops for that matter) is indicative of the abilities of the class. Just pay for the tome if you want those bonuses. Likewise, I don't think item wizardry - that is, replicating the abilities of a caster with items is really the point. While WBL is probably necessary, the point is to measure what value the classes and their abilities have. Thus, I trust in your ability to determine what the Soulknife chassis is all about and thus build around it (same with the CW Samurai). Your baseline tactic shouldn't be something a Commoner can do just as well.

Fair enough, seems like a good basepoint

[Hackulator]

DCFS refers to the dark chaos feat shuffle, an old TO trick from Tippy. It involves casting embrace the dark chaos followed by shun the dark chaos, the end effect being that you can turn any feat you have into any other feat you qualify for. Classically it's used on an elf to turn all their racial weapon proficiencies into bonus feats.

Does no variant rules also mean no ACFs?

Yeah no, definitely not.

What books have ACFs for Samurai or Soulknife?


I don't think using wish-loops in any shape or form (or any other loops for that matter) is indicative of the abilities of the class. Just pay for the tome if you want those bonuses. Likewise, I don't think item wizardry - that is, replicating the abilities of a caster with items is really the point. While WBL is probably necessary, the point is to measure what value the classes and their abilities have. Thus, I trust in your ability to determine what the Soulknife chassis is all about and thus build around it (same with the CW Samurai). Your baseline tactic shouldn't be something a Commoner can do just as well.

I feel like this does a good job of stating something I was trying to say last night, except it was 2am and I was far from sober.

[Psyren]

What books have ACFs for Samurai or Soulknife?


Mind's Eye and some Dragon articles I believe.

Soulknives are also psionic, which gives them access to some toys that the Samurai doesn't get (at least, not without blowing a feat.)

[mabriss lethe]

For the sake of parity, you might want to open the races up to include the basic psionic races as well. Elan, maenad, xeph, etc .

[The Glyphstone]

An appropriate same-game test would probably pit them each against an assortment of monsters that tend towards physical combat (as opposed to being spellcasters in disguise). Say, a Giant, a Dragon, a Devil/Demon, and something else, all of appropriate CR to the level being tested.


@Level 5: Hill Giant (CR7), Hellcat (CR7), Juvenile White Dragon (CR6), Seven-Headed Hydra (CR6)
@Level 10: Fire Giant (CR10), Hezrou (CR10), Young Adult Black Dragon in a swamp (CR9+1), Dread Wraith (CR11)
@Level 15: Storm Giant Fighter 2 (CR15), Nalfeshee (CR14), Mature Adult Blue Dragon (CR16), Greater Stone Golem (CR16)
@Level 20: Balor (CR20), Old Red Dragon (CR20), Nightcrawler (CR18), Tarrasque (CR20)

[AnimeTheCat]

An appropriate same-game test would probably pit them each against an assortment of monsters that tend towards physical combat (as opposed to being spellcasters in disguise). Say, a Giant, a Dragon, a Devil/Demon, and something else, all of appropriate CR to the level being tested.


@Level 5: Hill Giant (CR7), Hellcat (CR7), Juvenile White Dragon (CR6), Seven-Headed Hydra (CR6)
@Level 10: Fire Giant (CR10), Hezrou (CR10), Young Adult Black Dragon in a swamp (CR9+1), Dread Wraith (CR11)
@Level 15: Storm Giant Fighter 2 (CR15), Nalfeshee (CR14), Mature Adult Blue Dragon (CR16), Greater Stone Golem (CR16)
@Level 20: Balor (CR20), Old Red Dragon (CR20), Nightcrawler (CR18), Tarrasque (CR20)

Personally, I would say that you should have better representation for your same game test and not shy away from things that don't focus on physical combat. That will allow the class to show whatever versatility, if any, it has to offer. For instance, I would suggest using a Humanoid (Monstrous or otherwise), Dragon, Undead, Outsider, and Magical Beast. Each type will have different strengths and weaknesses and will be able to target the different weaknesses/strengths of the classes. I would be interested in making both classes and just seeing how my creations fare against such tests. I would say it would be fairly close to each other.

EDIT:
At level 5 I would use a Mummy (CR 5), a Young Black Dragon (CR 5), Troll (CR 5), Hieracosphinx (CR 5), and Barghest, Greater (CR 5).

[Calthropstu]

Soulknife has access to psionic feats, which the samurai needs to take an extra feat to be able to do. And psionic feats can make the difference here with a good amount of extra damage potential.
With the soulknife able to imbue his weapon with decent stuff for free, it's a fair bit of equipment money he can spend on other things. The samurai has nothing to compare. Add in his psychic strike, as well as boosts from expending his focus and we're looking at some serious first strike power.
So the soulknife kinda wins equipment wise and damage wise. But the soulknife doesn't really get anything else. The Samurai has the fear effect but little else. Is the fear effect enough to counterbalance the massive gold advantage the soulknife gets due to not needing to buy a weapon? I think not. Fear immunity is relatively simple to obtain, and the soulknife, at lvl 20, is swinging around a +9 equivalent weapon.
The samurai will be hard pressed to match.

[Tainted_Scholar]

We should avoid any monsters that have access to spellcasting.

[Eldariel]

I'd make it more varied. Use groups of enemies, quest goals, etc. It can include stuff like acquiring a McGuffin from a cave, defending a town against an incoming goblin horde, assassinating the assassins' guild leader in Waterdeep, winning a gladiator match. This way, characters can bring all their tactical and strategic tools to bear. Like, acquiring an item held by a young black dragon in a swamp cave is immediately a more useful gauge than "Soulknife vs. Black Dragon, final destination" and brings out the ways in which the classes can act strategically (granted, not many with these classes) and allows them to act both, as the active and the passive party in a campaign scenario. Just make an appropriate one up for each level range and go from there.

[Tainted_Scholar]

I'd make it more varied. Use groups of enemies, quest goals, etc. It can include stuff like acquiring a McGuffin from a cave, defending a town against an incoming goblin horde, assassinating the assassins' guild leader in Waterdeep, winning a gladiator match. This way, characters can bring all their tactical and strategic tools to bear. Like, acquiring an item held by a young black dragon in a swamp cave is immediately a more useful gauge than "Soulknife vs. Black Dragon, final destination" and brings out the ways in which the classes can act strategically (granted, not many with these classes) and allows them to act both, as the active and the passive party in a campaign scenario. Just make an appropriate one up for each level range and go from there.

We could use the SRD's randomly generated dungeons, would that work?

[mabriss lethe]

Soulknife has access to psionic feats, which the samurai needs to take an extra feat to be able to do. And psionic feats can make the difference here with a good amount of extra damage potential.
With the soulknife able to imbue his weapon with decent stuff for free, it's a fair bit of equipment money he can spend on other things. The samurai has nothing to compare. Add in his psychic strike, as well as boosts from expending his focus and we're looking at some serious first strike power.
So the soulknife kinda wins equipment wise and damage wise. But the soulknife doesn't really get anything else. The Samurai has the fear effect but little else. Is the fear effect enough to counterbalance the massive gold advantage the soulknife gets due to not needing to buy a weapon? I think not. Fear immunity is relatively simple to obtain, and the soulknife, at lvl 20, is swinging around a +9 equivalent weapon.
The samurai will be hard pressed to match.

As others have already noted: In a head to head encounter, even using fear effects isn't going to be all that useful of a tactic for a samurai, since Autohypnosis is a class skill for the SK, and one of its abilities allows for a fairly nice defense against fear effects. Iirc, Intimidate is a bit easier to boost, but I don't think it's enough to do more than break slightly in the samurai's favor, even before we get into other options for negating it. Using a same-encounter test, it will quickly find its usefulness degrading due to the wide spread fear immunity you see later in the game. Even mediocre baked-in bonus damage and native access to psionic feats gives the soulknife a significantly larger toolkit that the samurai can bring to bear.

[Psionic Dog]

Thoughts:

i) At least one multi-opponent encounter should be included at each breakpoint.

ii) Should the same dungeon test be solo combat or as filling a party role? I could see running a full low-power party consisting of Aristocrat, Expert, Adept + You, the Samurai/Soulknife.

iii) Limited spell casting opponents are probably OK if half-casters or multi-classed.

iii) A 1v1 gladiatorial fight at each break point in addition to the same-game test would likely be entertaining.

[Tainted_Scholar]

ii) Should the same dungeon test be solo combat or as filling a party role? I could see running a full low-power party consisting of Aristocrat, Expert, Adept + You, the Samurai/Soulknife.

I would do a solo run.

Speaking of.

The Halls of Mery the Eldritch

Level 1
http://www.d20srd.org/fantasy/dungeon/cache/596d392149363121.png
http://www.d20srd.org/fantasy/dungeon/key.gif
General Information:

Dungeon Walls. Natural Stone (Climb DC 15)
Dungeon Floor. Flagstone
Temperature. Cool
Illumination. Dark (individual creatures may carry lights)

Corridors:

a. Patches of mushrooms grow here
c. Pit Trap: CR 2; mechanical; location trigger; manual reset; DC 20 Reflex save avoids; 40 ft. deep (4d6, fall); Search DC 20; Disable Device DC 20

Wandering Monsters:

1. 5 x 1st Level Warrior Goblin, scouting from another part of the dungeon
2. 1 x Homunculus, scouting from another part of the dungeon
3. 1 x Homunculus, bloodied and fleeing a more powerful enemy
4. 1 x Troglodyte Zombie, searching for an object stolen from their lair
5. 13 x Tiny Monstrous Centipede (vermin), bloodied and fleeing a more powerful enemy
6. 1 x Darkmantle, wandering senselessly

Room #1

West Entry #1. Stuck Simple Wooden Door (break DC 13; hard 5, 10 hp)
→ Leads to room #3

West Entry #2. Stuck Good Wooden Door (break DC 18; hard 5, 15 hp)

West Entry #3. Locked Iron Door (Open Lock DC 40, break DC 28; hard 10, 60 hp)

Room Features. Someone has scrawled "It's a trap" in dwarvish runes on the west wall, The floor is covered with shards of bone

Monster. 1 x 1st Level Warrior Duergar (dwarf)
1st level warrior duergar: CR 1; Medium humanoid (dwarf); HD 1d8+5; hp 9; Init +0; Spd 20 ft. in chainmail (4 squares); base speed 20 ft.; AC 17 (+5 chainmail, +2 heavy shield), touch 10, flat-footed 17; Base Atk +1; Grp +2; Atk +2 melee (1d8+1/x3, warhammer) or +1 ranged (1d8/19-20, light crossbow); Full Atk +2 melee (1d8+1/x3, warhammer) or +1 ranged (1d8/19-20, light crossbow); Space/Reach 5 ft./5 ft.; SA Duergar traits, spell-like abilities; SQ Darkvision 60 ft., duergar traits; AL LE; SV Fort +4*, Ref +0*, Will -1*; Str 13, Dex 11, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 9, Cha 4
Skills and Feats: Appraise +2, Craft (blacksmithing) +2, Craft (stonemasonry) +2, Listen +3, Move Silently -4, Spot +2; Toughness
Treasure: 20 gp; hoard total 20 gp

Room #2

North Entry. Secret (Search DC 20) Stuck Simple Wooden Door (break DC 13; hard 5, 10 hp) (slides up, +2 to break DC)
Ⓢ The door is concealed within the mouth of a gargantuan skull carved from stone

Room #3

West Entry. Wooden Portcullis (lift DC 25, break DC 28; hard 5, 30 hp)

East Entry. Stuck Simple Wooden Door (break DC 13; hard 5, 10 hp)
→ Leads to room #1, inhabited by 1 x 1st Level Warrior Duergar

Room Features. Several alcoves are cut into the south wall, A set of demonic war masks hangs on the west wall

Room #4

East Entry. Secret (Search DC 25) Unlocked Strong Wooden Door (hard 5, 20 hp)
Ⓢ The door is concealed behind a statue of an ancient lich, and opened by pressing runes on his staff

South Entry #1. Archway

South Entry #2. Stuck Strong Wooden Door (break DC 23; hard 5, 20 hp)

Room Features. Part of the north wall has collapsed into the room, A pile of spoiled meat lies in the north side of the room

[Sagetim]

At level 14 and above the Samurai wins every fight in which he wins initiative, and every fight in which he loses initiative but survives the first round, provided that the Soulknife is not immune to fear.

1. Take Imperious Command.
2. Every point of WBL goes to raising Intimidate and Initiative.
3. You win.

So I propose to just declare Samurai stronger from level 14 onwards.

Autohypnosis is usable against fear saves, which is one reason that my DM banned it (the skill) in the 3.5 game where I was running a soulknife (there were a number of outright bans in that game, including full caster classes, all manifesters, and more, so it's not like this one skill was singled out with nothing else being banned).

So if you're going to use intimidate to try and force fear effects, the soulknife can use autohypnosis to resist. Not that they have terrible will saves (and, in fact, the one I built in the same game I mentioned had a magnificently high will save because of the two soul knife only prestige classes and wisdom focus of the build stacking on top of the soul knife's baseline good will save).

Anyway, for encounters you should not shy away from casters. It's rather unfair to the class to say 'oh, well, this is a full caster, it obviously wins instantly because x, y, z' without actually testing it. Saving throws happen, monsters tend not to be TO cheese, and both of these classes have beefy hit dice with which to weather their way into having a round 1 of actions, in which the dynamic of the fight can change significantly.

Don't forget that soulknife also has native access to stealth skills and light enough armor for that to be a viable option, and enough skill points to actually invest in said skills and still do anything else at all with skills. CW samurai also has 4+int skills, I'm just trying to point out that skills actually do matter other than just UMD to cheese things with wands of fireball or the like. Depending on the combat area, climb, swim, tumble, and so on can all find a use, even if it's something as suicidal as grappling a monster into the water to drown it while keeping your head up. If you go into this assuming that the class's only options are the ones that are immediately apparent from attack bonus and potential weapon damage output, you lose sight of one of the important aspects to DND: Problem Solving.

[Bonzai]

One question. Would you count manifesting a blade the same as a "drawing" action?

[The Viscount]

Yeah no, definitely not.

What books have ACFs for Samurai or Soulknife?

Dragon Magic has the Dragonscale Husk, Races of Eberron has Kalashtar racial sub levels for Soulknife (not applicable assuming we're sticking to core races), but more important are the articles.

Soulknife has this one (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070214a) with two ACFs I'd take in a heartbeat.

As the samurai there's this article (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a), particularly Skilled City-Dweller.

I would really like to expand races out, but I understand if we want to keep things in base races


As an aside, Autohypnosis specifies that it is for fear effects with saves, which Intimidate does not have.
CW Samurai has 2+Int skills. It's OA Samurai that has 4+Int skills, and they have things to spend it on.

[Lans]

1+2- No UMD, no custom magic items, this is to test the class features, not test how good people are at abusing UMD

How are you ruling what's a custom item? When it comes.es to combining effects for a 1..5 cost modifier to be fair according to the rules and for sword of truestrike and +30 truename checks

[Psyren]

As an aside, Autohypnosis specifies that it is for fear effects with saves, which Intimidate does not have.

Interestingly, it doesn't actually specify that; it says you make a save "normally" (which for Intimidate you wouldn't) but then has a completely different effect you can trigger if you're feared. At the very least, the wording is unclear.

[flappeercraft]

I have the level 20 Soulknife ready for testing. I avoided all TO. https://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=1276961

[Hackulator]

I have the level 20 Soulknife ready for testing. I avoided all TO. https://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=1276961

Uh, cool!

Is there anyone who wants to take the side of the Samurai in this fight? I'll be honest my system mastery has definitely degraded to the point where I am not the person to make the sheet for 20th level.

[flappeercraft]

One thing, how will we do the fight? PbP, Skype or Roll20? Or do we decide that later?

[Hackulator]

How are you ruling what's a custom item? When it comes.es to combining effects for a 1..5 cost modifier to be fair according to the rules and for sword of truestrike and +30 truename checks

A custom item is an item that isn't already described in a book. Using the rules for creating custom magic items like you are describing is pretty game breaking and could easily turn this into a competition of who can come up with the best custom magic item combo.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Uh, cool!

Is there anyone who wants to take the side of the Samurai in this fight? I'll be honest my system mastery has definitely degraded to the point where I am not the person to make the sheet for 20th level.

I've always wanted to mess around with a Samurai, I wouldn't mind building one. I doubt I could run it that well, but I can try.

What sort of bans are we looking at here?

[Tainted_Scholar]

One thing, how will we do the fight? PbP, Skype or Roll20? Or do we decide that later?

We should probably wait to decide until we have a Samurai build.

[flappeercraft]

We should probably wait to decide until we have a Samurai build.

Fair enough, we do need to have the samurai tester to be able to do that to begin with

[ColorBlindNinja]

Fair enough, we do need to have the samurai tester to be able to do that to begin with

I can do that, I just need to know what material is banned.

[Hackulator]

I've always wanted to mess around with a Samurai, I wouldn't mind building one. I doubt I could run it that well, but I can try.

What sort of bans are we looking at here?

CW Samurai

No multiclassing

No 3rd party

No custom magic items (other than weapons/armor as those are almost all custom)

No silly combos that would work as well on a commoner as on the Samurai (ie candle of solar chain gating BS)

Basically, the idea is to actually test the two classes against each other, not test your ability to cleverly abuse mechanics outside those classes. Just try to stay true to that idea and I'm sure you'll be fine. If you have any questions post them here and people can weigh in.

I feel like if we could all agree on a time, roll20 is best because it has a grid. However, PbP is a lot easier to pull off.

Also, should we do best of 3 with 3 different scenarios? I was thinking:

First fight - Standard large circular arena

Second fight - Series of floating 20' x 20' platforms. (this would really need roll20).

Tiebreaker - They fight in an elevator (5' x 10' room)

[Nifft]

Also, should we do best of 3 with 3 different scenarios? I was thinking:

First fight - Standard large circular arena

Second fight - Series of floating 20' x 20' platforms. (this would really need roll20).

Tiebreaker - They fight in an elevator (5' x 10' room)

PvP?

Seriously?

That's a very poor test of PC capabilities.

[flappeercraft]

I can do that, I just need to know what material is banned.

Basically it is
1. No multiclassing so level 20 Samurai
2. Normal WBL and no more than 50% for a single item so 760,000 total and no more than 380,000 per item
3. No custom magic items (No magic items that have not been printed anywhere)
4. Not decided on Elite array or PB but I went with 32 PB since its the usual
5. No Wish looping
6. No UMD/UPD builds
7. There has been no statement on sources so I just went with Dragon Mag and 1st party
8. Go RAI, RAW where needed to use
9. No DCFS

[ColorBlindNinja]

CW Samurai

No multiclassing

No 3rd party

No custom magic items (other than weapons/armor as those are almost all custom)

No silly combos that would work as well on a commoner as on the Samurai (ie candle of solar chain gating BS)

Basically, the idea is to actually test the two classes against each other, not test your ability to cleverly abuse mechanics outside those classes. Just try to stay true to that idea and I'm sure you'll be fine. If you have any questions post them here and people can weigh in.

I feel like if we could all agree on a time, roll20 is best because it has a grid. However, PbP is a lot easier to pull off.

Also, should we do best of 3 with 3 different scenarios? I was thinking:

First fight - Standard large circular arena

Second fight - Series of floating 20' x 20' platforms. (this would really need roll20).

Tiebreaker - They fight in an elevator (5' x 10' room)

OK, other than those restrictions, are all source books (including Dragon Magazine) allowed?


PvP?

Seriously?

That's a very poor test of PC capabilities.

That's a pretty good point. It can be fun, I guess, but maybe we should run the Same Game Test?

Edit:


Basically it is
1. No multiclassing so level 20 Samurai
2. Normal WBL and no more than 50% for a single item so 760,000 total and no more than 380,000 per item
3. No custom magic items (No magic items that have not been printed anywhere)
4. Not decided on Elite array or PB but I went with 32 PB since its the usual
5. No Wish looping
6. No UMD/UPD builds
7. There has been no statement on sources so I just went with Dragon Mag and 1st party
8. Go RAI, RAW where needed to use
9. No DCFS

OK, I'll start building my Samurai.

[flappeercraft]

I feel like if we could all agree on a time, roll20 is best because it has a grid. However, PbP is a lot easier to pull off.

Also, should we do best of 3 with 3 different scenarios? I was thinking:

First fight - Standard large circular arena

Second fight - Series of floating 20' x 20' platforms. (this would really need roll20).

Tiebreaker - They fight in an elevator (5' x 10' room)

Yeah, Roll20 might be the best, although if scheduling is too hard to pull off maybe we could make it Roll20/PbP, you make a post detailing what you do then move on roll20 which would help visualize the stuff that happens.

First Fight: No Feedback

Second Fight: How would we get from place to place if we have no access to flying as mundanes or should we just use part of the WBL to get mobility to move from one to the other?

Tiebreaker: Wouldn't the problem with that be that mobility based builds if any are screwed with that?

[Hackulator]

I agree that in a LOT of situations pvp is a bad test, but here, since these classes are both basically melee brawlers with some additional abilities, it's not a bad test.

Same game might be good to do as well, but that's not really an "Ultimate Showdown" now is it? :smalltongue:


Yeah, Roll20 might be the best, although if scheduling is too hard to pull off maybe we could make it Roll20/PbP, you make a post detailing what you do then move on roll20 which would help visualize the stuff that happens.

First Fight: No Feedback

Second Fight: How would we get from place to place if we have no access to flying as mundanes or should we just use part of the WBL to get mobility to move from one to the other?

Tiebreaker: Wouldn't the problem with that be that mobility based builds if any are screwed with that?

The platforms would be close enough that they should be jumpable by reasonable characters.

Mobility would be a big advantage in both of the first two scenarios, making the third different was on purpose.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Are we using the Magic Item Compendium rules for combining two items into one?

[The Viscount]

Darn, should have built the samurai when I declared intent.

Good luck, ColorBlindNinja.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Darn, should have built the samurai when I declared intent.

Good luck, ColorBlindNinja.

Thanks, I'll give it my best shot.

Edit:

Here's my build, I spend too much GP on misc. gear and realized too late my weapon/armor suck. :smallfrown: Still very much a work in progress...


Level 20 Samurai

Dragonborn, Lesser Cansin

STR: 27 (+8)
DEX: 18 (+4)
CON: 22 (+6)
INT: 16 (+3)
WIS: 14 (+2)
CHA: 34 (+12)

Initiative: +12

BAB: 20/15/10/5

Melee: 28/23/18/13

AC: 20

FORT: +23
REF: +15
WILL: +9 (+29 with Moment of the Perfect Mind)

Skills:
Intimidate: +38 (23 Ranks)
Concentration: +29 (23 Ranks)

Flaws:
Fussy: -4 to poison on Fort Saves, can't drink potions or becomes naueseated
Love of Nature: DC 12 Will save VS attacking Animals, Vermin, and Plants

Racial Abilities:
Flight


Martial Stance: Moment of the Perfect Mind
Power Attack
Skill Focus: Intimidate
Improved Bull Rush
Imperious Command
Improved Initative (Bonus Feat)
Shock Trooper
Shape Soulmeld (Crystal Helm) [+2 to WILL VS Charm/Complusion, when bound, all attack gain FORCE descriptor]
Open Least Chakra (Crown, +1 to WILL)
Split Chakra



Daisho Profciency
Two Swords as One (Improved, Greater)
Kiai Smite 4/day
Iajjutsu Master
Staredown (Improved)
Bonus Feat: Improved Initiative
Mass Staredown
Frightful Presence



Cloak of Resistance (25,000 GP)
Manual of Gainful Exercise (137,500)
Tome of Leadership and Influence (137,500)
Cowl of Warding (200,800)
Belt of Magnificence +6 (200,000)
+2 Fearsome Death Ward Mithral Chainmail (7,250)
+1 Eager Initiative Greatsword (38,350, +4 init)
4,850 GP left

[Jormengand]

I know! Let's have them both fight a Pit Fiend. :smallcool:

NO! OUT! :smalltongue:



The samurai will win at most levels. To me, it's more interesting to wonder what level the soulknife breaks ahead of the aristocrat: when does a third-rate weapon start to outdo real proficiencies?

[ColorBlindNinja]

NO! OUT! :smalltongue:



You're not curious to see if they'll melt? :smallwink:


The samurai will win at most levels. To me, it's more interesting to wonder what level the soulknife breaks ahead of the aristocrat: when does a third-rate weapon start to outdo real proficiencies?

I'd say the extra damage from a Great Sword would matter more at low levels, but that's just me.

[The Viscount]

Ok my samurai is finished and ready for action. (https://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=1277360) Let me know if there are any questions, or we can start the deathmatch.

[flappeercraft]

Ok my samurai is finished and ready for action. (https://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=1277360) Let me know if there are any questions, or we can start the deathmatch.

No questions, although I probably will not be available tomorrow. On Friday I will be available but probably after 3:00 PM EST.

[Tainted_Scholar]

So now we have two Samurai.

[lord_khaine]

So now we have two Samurai.

2 down, 5 to go :smallwink:

[ColorBlindNinja]

Ok my samurai is finished and ready for action. (https://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=1277360) Let me know if there are any questions, or we can start the deathmatch.

How funny, I built a Samurai too.

Speaking of:


Level 20 Samurai

Dragonborn, Lesser Cansin

Lawful Neutral

HP: 225

Movement: Land 30', Flight 30' (average maneuverability)

STR: 27 (+8)
DEX: 18 (+4)
CON: 22 (+6)
INT: 16 (+3)
WIS: 14 (+2)
CHA: 34 (+12)

Initiative: +12

BAB: 20/15/10/5

Melee: 28/23/18/13

AC: 20

FORT: +23
REF: +15
WILL: +9 (+29 with Moment of the Perfect Mind)

Skills:
Intimidate: +38 (23 Ranks)
Concentration: +29 (23 Ranks)

Flaws:
Fussy: -4 to poison on Fort Saves, can't drink potions or becomes naueseated
Love of Nature: DC 12 Will save VS attacking Animals, Vermin, and Plants

Racial Abilities:
Flight


Martial Stance: Moment of the Perfect Mind
Power Attack
Skill Focus: Intimidate
Improved Bull Rush
Imperious Command
Improved Initative (Bonus Feat)
Shock Trooper
Shape Soulmeld (Crystal Helm) [+2 to WILL VS Charm/Complusion, when bound, all attack gain FORCE descriptor]
Open Least Chakra (Crown, +1 to WILL)
Split Chakra



Daisho Profciency
Two Swords as One (Improved, Greater)
Kiai Smite 4/day
Iajjutsu Master
Staredown (Improved)
Bonus Feat: Improved Initiative
Mass Staredown
Frightful Presence



Cloak of Resistance (25,000 GP)
Manual of Gainful Exercise (137,500)
Tome of Leadership and Influence (137,500)
Cowl of Warding (200,800)
Belt of Magnificence +6 (200,000)
+2 Fearsome Death Ward Mithral Chainmail (7,250)
+1 Eager Initiative Greatsword (38,350, +4 init)
4,850 GP left


I made a few minor updates.

[The Viscount]

On Friday I'd be available after around 4:30 EST, though ColorBlindNinja is welcome to take first crack at it.

[Hackulator]

Viscount, I think you have some items that violate the "no custom item" rule?

[flappeercraft]

I saw the items, he only combined printed items and those that occupied the same slot. It's not as much custom items as much as it is using magic item slots to their full potential.

[Hackulator]

I saw the items, he only combined printed items and those that occupied the same slot. It's not as much custom items as much as it is using magic item slots to their full potential.

Alright that was outside what I was going to consider acceptable, but if others think we should allow that then I'll agree. What do people think?

[flappeercraft]

I don't really have a problem with it, most DMs I've played with allowed that and as shown by his character neither does Viscount. But anyone think this is ok or should it be disallowed?

[ColorBlindNinja]

I don't really have a problem with it, most DMs I've played with allowed that and as shown by his character neither does Viscount. But anyone think this is ok or should it be disallowed?

I can tell you right now that I'd save a ton of money for my build if it's allowed.

[Hackulator]

I can tell you right now that I'd save a ton of money for my build if it's allowed.

That doesn't answer the question of whether you think it SHOULD be allowed though lol. The fact that you're one of the builds doesn't mean you can't vote on things like that, this isn't a player/DM dynamic. We're all working together to come up with things, I'm just trying to manage stuff since I started the thread.

[The Viscount]

Ah. I had wondered if that would be allowed.

That's fine, the cloak of minor displacement is just for some miss chance and the gauntlets of heartfelt blows are just for faster damage. I'll get rid of them and just have the normal items. Sheet updated with those changes.

What's the verdict on Tumble? I can change that, too, if it's a problem.

[Hackulator]

Ah. I had wondered if that would be allowed.

That's fine, the cloak of minor displacement is just for some miss chance and the gauntlets of heartfelt blows are just for faster damage. I'll get rid of them and just have the normal items. Sheet updated with those changes.

What's the verdict on Tumble? I can change that, too, if it's a problem.

Still waiting on a few more people to weigh in, it SEEMS like people may be in favor but some builds may need a little reworking if we change it so I'm not sure yet.

What's the tumble issue?

[ColorBlindNinja]

That doesn't answer the question of whether you think it SHOULD be allowed though lol. The fact that you're one of the builds doesn't mean you can't vote on things like that, this isn't a player/DM dynamic. We're all working together to come up with things, I'm just trying to manage stuff since I started the thread.

In that case, I vote for item combinations.

[The Viscount]

I nabbed tumble as a class skill by trading ride via Skilled City Dweller (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a). It's an ACF, which might be crossing the "variant rule" parameter?

[Hackulator]

I nabbed tumble as a class skill by trading ride via Skilled City Dweller (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a). It's an ACF, which might be crossing the "variant rule" parameter?

I don't necessarily have a problem with that. Are ACFs considered a variant rule? I feel like Samurais not having tumble considering what tumble is used for in D&D (moving around in combat) is pretty dumb anyway.

[mabriss lethe]

I don't necessarily have a problem with that. Are ACFs considered a variant rule? I feel like Samurais not having tumble considering what tumble is used for in D&D (moving around in combat) is pretty dumb anyway.

In most conversations I've been a part of, "variant rule" tends to mostly revolve around the wonky stuff listed in unearthed arcana that alters the way the whole game plays (spell point/recharge magic, Item familiars, bloodlines, etc.) ACFs and Racial subs tend to treated as a different subset of rules than "variant"

[ColorBlindNinja]

Update for Sammy the Samurai; I had the wrong version of Warning, and so I've replaced Eager.


Level 20 Samurai

Dragonborn, Lesser Cansin

Lawful Neutral

HP: 225

Movement: Land 30', Flight 30' (average maneuverability)

STR: 27 (+8)
DEX: 18 (+4)
CON: 22 (+6)
INT: 16 (+3)
WIS: 14 (+2)
CHA: 34 (+12)

Initiative: +15

BAB: 20/15/10/5

Melee: 28/23/18/13

AC: 20

FORT: +23
REF: +15
WILL: +9 (+29 with Moment of the Perfect Mind)

Skills:
Intimidate: +38 (23 Ranks)
Concentration: +29 (23 Ranks)

Flaws:
Fussy: -4 to poison on Fort Saves, can't drink potions or becomes naueseated
Love of Nature: DC 12 Will save VS attacking Animals, Vermin, and Plants

Racial Abilities:
Flight


Martial Stance: Moment of the Perfect Mind
Power Attack
Skill Focus: Intimidate
Improved Bull Rush
Imperious Command
Improved Initative (Bonus Feat)
Shock Trooper
Shape Soulmeld (Crystal Helm) [+2 to WILL VS Charm/Complusion, when bound, all attack gain FORCE descriptor]
Open Least Chakra (Crown, +1 to WILL)
Split Chakra



Daisho Profciency
Two Swords as One (Improved, Greater)
Kiai Smite 4/day
Iajjutsu Master
Staredown (Improved)
Bonus Feat: Improved Initiative
Mass Staredown
Frightful Presence



Cloak of Resistance (25,000 GP)
Manual of Gainful Exercise (137,500)
Tome of Leadership and Influence (137,500)
Cowl of Warding (200,800)
Belt of Magnificence +6 (200,000)
+2 Fearsome Death Ward Mithral Chainmail (7,250)
+1 Warning Initiative Greatsword (38,350, +7 init)
4,850 GP left

[Venger]

Yeah, acfs aren't variant rules, that means like spell points and fractional BA and stuff.

ColorBlindNinja, your flaws are both from dandwiki and are homebrew. Do you want to replace them with legal flaws from the srd?

[flappeercraft]

Yeah, acfs aren't variant rules, that means like spell points and fractional BA and stuff.

ColorBlindNinja, your flaws are both from dandwiki and are homebrew. Do you want to replace them with legal flaws from the srd?

Not Dandwiki. Fussy is from Dragon Magazine 328 and Love of nature from Dragon Magazine 324

[Venger]

Not Dandwiki. Fussy is from Dragon Magazine 328 and Love of nature from Dragon Magazine 324

Okay, the point is they're unbalanced third party content. While hackulator never said dragon magazine's not allowed, of course it isn't. It's never allowed.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Okay, the point is they're unbalanced third party content. While hackulator never said dragon magazine's not allowed, of course it isn't. It's never allowed.

Last I checked, Dragon Magazine is 1st party. It was officially endorsed by WotC, wasn't it?

Edit: I asked if Dragon Magazine was allowed, and I don't believe I got a response (that I remember anyway).

[Venger]

Last I checked, Dragon Magazine is 1st party. It was officially endorsed by WotC, wasn't it?

Edit: I asked if Dragon Magazine was allowed, and I don't believe I got a response (that I remember anyway).

Dragon magazine is third party. It always has been third party. No, you didn't miss a response.

[The Viscount]

I would like to formally request no prebuffing before the fight. Neither of us has any buffs from class features, so it would all just be item use.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Dragon magazine is third party. It always has been third party. No, you didn't miss a response.

Then why does it have a logo on the front cover saying that it's 100% official material? (Or at least, issue #330 does).


I would like to formally request no prebuffing before the fight. Neither of us has any buffs from class features, so it would all just be item use.

That's fine, the only thing I have that would count as a buff is my Force Helm Soulmeld, and it lasts until I choose to unshape it.

Edit: Or until it gets dispelled. :smallfrown:

[The Viscount]

That's completely acceptable, just like a soulknife choosing weapon properties, that was done levels ago. My concern is using magic items immediately before the fight.

[flappeercraft]

Can I use horn of plenty then or should I just get something else?

[ColorBlindNinja]

Can I use horn of plenty then or should I just get something else?

Heroes' Feast lasts for hours, so that wouldn't be buffing directly before the fight. I wouldn't have a problem with it, at least.

[The Viscount]

I would request that you not. While the horn of plenty is something that has a long duration, it also requires an uninterrupted hour in order to prepare, which I would say goes against the the Test of Spite style arena fight that we have going.

[flappeercraft]

Then I'll see where else to get immunity to fear from. Any ideas? Basically on 12,000 GP budget

Edit: Unless cost reducers are allowed. Are they?

[ColorBlindNinja]

Then I'll see where else to get immunity to fear from. Any ideas? Basically on 12,000 GP budget

Edit: Unless cost reducers are allowed. Are they?

All fear is mind-effecting, do you have Mind Blank?

[flappeercraft]

All fear is mind-effecting, do you have Mind Blank?

No, couldn't find a printed item with Mind Blank

[ColorBlindNinja]

No, couldn't find a printed item with Mind Blank

There's the Cowl of Warding, it provides Mind Blank, Freedom of Movement, and Spell Turning. It costs 200,800 and takes up the head slot.

There's also the Third Eye Conceal (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/universalItems.htm#conceal), 120,000 and uses your face slot.

You also might want to look at Lists-of-Necessary-Magic-Items (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?187851-3-5-Lists-of-Necessary-Magic-Items).

[Tainted_Scholar]

Dragon magazine is third party. It always has been third party. No, you didn't miss a response.

No, Dragon Magazine is First Party.

[flappeercraft]

Are cost reducers allowed or disallowed?

[ColorBlindNinja]

Are cost reducers allowed or disallowed?

For clarification's sake, could you elaborate what you mean by that?

[flappeercraft]

You can apply limitations to magic items to reduce their cost. For example only a specific class can use it and instead of the item costs 30% less

[Tainted_Scholar]

You can apply limitations to magic items to reduce their cost. For example only a specific class can use it and instead of the item costs 30% less

Interesting, where is this from?

[ColorBlindNinja]

Interesting, where is this from?

It sounds like it's from the custom magic item rules guidelines.

If that's the case, no, it's not allowed.

[flappeercraft]

Some are custom items, some are from special materials like fey cherry wood. Most cost reducers are from custom item guidelines which are in DMG. The one I want to use is Fey Cherry Wood. I don't remember exactly where it's from but there is a description of it on Realmshelp Magic plants section IIRC

[ColorBlindNinja]

Some are custom items, some are from special materials like fey cherry wood. Most cost reducers are from custom item guidelines which are in DMG. The one I want to use is Fey Cherry Wood. I don't remember exactly where it's from but there is a description of it on Realmshelp Magic plants section IIRC

Making an item out of a (cheaper) special material would probably be OK, but we'll have to see what everyone else thinks.

Edit: Fey Cherry Wood appears to be from Dragon Magazine #357; I'll do some more research and see what I can find.

Edit 2: Yep, Dragon Magazine #357 Pg. 56.
Link: Magical-Plants-and-Where-to-Find-them (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?479663-Magical-Plants-and-Where-to-Find-them)

[tyckspoon]

Then I'll see where else to get immunity to fear from. Any ideas? Basically on 12,000 GP budget

Edit: Unless cost reducers are allowed. Are they?

Banner of the Storm's Eye. 15k GP, suppresses fear in a 20' radius of the bearer. Held or can be mounted on a backpack, in which case it counts as a shoulder-slot item. Ironically, much more in character for a traditional Samurai appearance. Magic Item Compendium.

[The Viscount]

Magic reducers are custom items, you're using an item that isn't printed anywhere.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Magic reducers are custom items, you're using an item that isn't printed anywhere.

It looks like flappeercraft is using a special material from Dragon Magazine.

[Calthropstu]

Dragon Mag is officially sanctioned third party. It was printed by Paizo, endorsed by WotC. It is sanctioned third party.

[Coretron03]

Dragon Mag is officially sanctioned third party. It was printed by Paizo, endorsed by WotC. It is sanctioned third party.

I thought I read somewhere that dragon mag is second party because its officially endorsed third party material. Not sure about the specifics.

[The Viscount]

It looks like flappeercraft is using a special material from Dragon Magazine.

That says that items made from the wood cost 10% lest to enhance, so that doesn't sound like the effect that would apply for making the banner.

Ok I've spent the last of my money and removed the chronocharm from my list, and I added 1 flaw for 1 feat. In the interests of transparency, flappeercraft, I know that we've been tweaking builds based on looking at each other's builds, but I'm ready to be mutually done after you buy your banner. Do we have a deal?

[flappeercraft]

Yeah I'm done on my part. Will not alter my build any further

[ColorBlindNinja]

Unless anyone has any suggestions, I believe my build is final:


Level 20 Samurai

Dragonborn, Lesser Cansin

Lawful Neutral

HP: 225

Movement: Land 30', Flight 30' (average maneuverability)

STR: 27 (+8)
DEX: 18 (+4)
CON: 22 (+6)
INT: 16 (+3)
WIS: 14 (+2)
CHA: 34 (+12)

Initiative: +15

BAB: 20/15/10/5

Melee: 29/24/19/14

DMG: 2D6+17

AC: 20

FORT: +23
REF: +15
WILL: +9 (+29 with Moment of the Perfect Mind)

Skills:
Intimidate: +38 (23 Ranks)
Concentration: +29 (23 Ranks)

Flaws:
Fussy: -4 to poison on Fort Saves, can't drink potions or becomes naueseated
Love of Nature: DC 12 Will save VS attacking Animals, Vermin, and Plants

Racial Abilities:
Flight


Martial Stance: Moment of the Perfect Mind
Power Attack
Skill Focus: Intimidate
Improved Bull Rush
Imperious Command
Improved Initative (Bonus Feat)
Shock Trooper
Shape Soulmeld (Crystal Helm) [+2 to WILL VS Charm/Complusion, when bound, all attack gain FORCE descriptor]
Open Least Chakra (Crown, +1 to WILL)
Split Chakra



Daisho Profciency
Two Swords as One (Improved, Greater)
Kiai Smite 4/day
Iajjutsu Master
Staredown (Improved)
Bonus Feat: Improved Initiative
Mass Staredown
Frightful Presence



Cloak of Resistance (25,000 GP)
Manual of Gainful Exercise (137,500)
Tome of Leadership and Influence (137,500)
Cowl of Warding (200,800)
Belt of Magnificence +6 (200,000)
+2 Fearsome Death Ward Mithral Chainmail (7,250)
+1 Warning Initiative Greatsword (38,350, +7 init)
4,850 GP left


Edit:

My basic strategy is to use Intimidate to demoralize my foe and then wail on them.

[The Viscount]

Perfect, now our agreement is tripartite and all builds are final. I'm so glad we could agree on this. Looking forward to the main event.

[ColorBlindNinja]

I've been reading up on Intimidate, and I was wondering, can I demoralize an opponent repeatedly? The skill description was a little vague.

[The Viscount]

You can't stack intimidate with itself, but you can demoralize the same opponent multiple times in combat.

[ColorBlindNinja]

You can't stack intimidate with itself, but you can demoralize the same opponent multiple times in combat.

Thanks, that's all I wanted to know.

[flappeercraft]

So to all who see this post, what class is your money on? Which do you think will prove superior in this competition?

Also, tomorrow I am available and earlier than I thought sonif you guys are available maybe that could be when we do it since we are all done with the builds.

[Lans]

how are we handling stealth?

[flappeercraft]

Probably due to the nature of this it would be disallowed but you should ask Hackulator about that

[ottdmk]

Just a quick note about ColorBlindNinja's Samurai: It looks like you're going all in on the Crystal Helm Soulmeld to gain its "All Melee attacks are Force attacks" chakra bind effect, which is cool. Just remember that you're not going to get the +2 to Will Saves; Crystal Helm gives a resistance bonus and you've got a Cloak of Resistance +5.

[Jormengand]

So to all who see this post, what class is your money on? Which do you think will prove superior in this competition?

I predict that at this optimisation level it makes no functional difference whether you're using the samurai's weak features or the soulknife's non-features.

[The Viscount]

Just the act of building has shown me how close they really are. So many of their features either don't matter or aren't worth using, it kind of comes down to samurai having full BAB but being more MAD, versus soulknife having average but having more money to work. Both classes need gear to be closer to competent, but I think in most normal games soulknife would have the edge in versatility.

[Jormengand]

In a real game a samurai would win easily - that is, in any game where their class features actually became relevant. I mean look: the soulknife is buying a very expensive anti-samurai peice of equipment; that isn't indicative of a normal game state. The samurai is simply better at fighting. A warrior is better at fighting than a soulknife at most levels.

[The Viscount]

Oh I had meant if you're playing a regular game against monsters and encounters, that the soulknife's ability in scouting and maneuverability will lend it to be more useful to the party than the samurai, who can fight monsters and then maybe do a little social if they have the points.

Soulknife can indeed neutralize the samurai's calling card, but the Samurai can do the same, and mind-affecting immunity is a fairly normal thing to acquire by level 20.

[Hackulator]

I'm sorry I don't have the time to set up a roll20 game for this right now. If someone else wants to do it however, feel free.

[The Viscount]

We could just do a PbP here, since neither of us is really capable of anything complicated, right?

[Jormengand]

Oh I had meant if you're playing a regular game against monsters and encounters, that the soulknife's ability in scouting and maneuverability will lend it to be more useful to the party than the samurai, who can fight monsters and then maybe do a little social if they have the points.

I hate to ask, but what maneuverability? They don't have a monk's movement bonus or SFAD, they have... climb and jump, whereas the samurai has ride, and the samurai has the most powerful skill in the game alongside the ability to do their actual job.

[The Viscount]

They have jump and tumble, 4 ranks so they might actually put some into those and/or Hide/MS, as well as a +10 movement speed from speed of thought, since they don't need to use their focus.

Anybody up to take the helm here?

[ColorBlindNinja]

Just a quick note about ColorBlindNinja's Samurai: It looks like you're going all in on the Crystal Helm Soulmeld to gain its "All Melee attacks are Force attacks" chakra bind effect, which is cool. Just remember that you're not going to get the +2 to Will Saves; Crystal Helm gives a resistance bonus and you've got a Cloak of Resistance +5.

I know, I just shaped it so I can attack incorporeal creatures.


Soulknife can indeed neutralize the samurai's calling card, but the Samurai can do the same, and mind-affecting immunity is a fairly normal thing to acquire by level 20.

I bought a Cowl of Warding for the sole purpose of getting Mind Bland; any character at level 15+ that doesn't have immunity to mind-affecting stuff is asking to die.

[mabriss lethe]

I know, I just shaped it so I can attack incorporeal creatures.



I bought a Cowl of Warding for the sole purpose of getting Mind Bland; any character at level 15+ that doesn't have immunity to mind-affecting stuff is asking to die.


FWIW, even mindblank via an item isn't the end-all-be-all vs. a soulknife. They have access to the suppression ability, which will have a decent chance of knocking an item based ability offline.

[The Viscount]

FWIW, even mindblank via an item isn't the end-all-be-all vs. a soulknife. They have access to the suppression ability, which will have a decent chance of knocking an item based ability offline.

That is true that you can use suppression, but there are several lurking factors that reduce the efficacy. First, this only works on things that have the immunity through spell or item, it does not help against undead or constructs, or other means of protection against it. Second, it's not clear what happens if you strike an immune target with psychic strike. If it discharges on the first hit regardless, you'd have to spend a move to regain psychic strike before attacking your foe. Third, the suppression ability comes with an opportunity cost, you can't take other abilities instead, and soulknife is already making sacrifices with only a +4 bonus. Finally, the average soulknife doesn't have a manifester level (or it's 1st with Hidden Talent) so they're rolling at 1d20+5 vs a dc of 11+cl (26 for mindblank item). This means there is a 5% chance of success, or 0 for a soulknife without the ACF. So for a regular soulknife, it is complete protection.

[ColorBlindNinja]

That is true that you can use suppression, but there are several lurking factors that reduce the efficacy. First, this only works on things that have the immunity through spell or item, it does not help against undead or constructs, or other means of protection against it. Second, it's not clear what happens if you strike an immune target with psychic strike. If it discharges on the first hit regardless, you'd have to spend a move to regain psychic strike before attacking your foe. Third, the suppression ability comes with an opportunity cost, you can't take other abilities instead, and soulknife is already making sacrifices with only a +4 bonus. Finally, the average soulknife doesn't have a manifester level (or it's 1st with Hidden Talent) so they're rolling at 1d20+5 vs a dc of 11+cl (26 for mindblank item). This means there is a 5% chance of success, or 0 for a soulknife without the ACF. So for a regular soulknife, it is complete protection.

Interesting, thanks for sharing.

[mabriss lethe]

That is true that you can use suppression, but there are several lurking factors that reduce the efficacy. First, this only works on things that have the immunity through spell or item, it does not help against undead or constructs, or other means of protection against it. Second, it's not clear what happens if you strike an immune target with psychic strike. If it discharges on the first hit regardless, you'd have to spend a move to regain psychic strike before attacking your foe. Third, the suppression ability comes with an opportunity cost, you can't take other abilities instead, and soulknife is already making sacrifices with only a +4 bonus. Finally, the average soulknife doesn't have a manifester level (or it's 1st with Hidden Talent) so they're rolling at 1d20+5 vs a dc of 11+cl (26 for mindblank item). This means there is a 5% chance of success, or 0 for a soulknife without the ACF. So for a regular soulknife, it is complete protection.

But given the criteria of the contest, one feat would max out your ML for the purpose of the weapon property. (any of the Host feats from C. Psi, to be precise, since they give you an ML of 1/2 your HD and the weapon property doesn't care where the ML comes from.). That alters your chances to roughly 50/50, which makes it closer to a viable tactic, Hypothetically combined with a belt of battle or other action economy ability That gives you an opening gambit of full attack with suppression mindblade+belt of battle-->Recharge psychic strike-->standard attack. I'm not saying that's the best possible use of your actions BTW. Just saying that it's a workable tactic, with little optimization.

As for the opportunity cost: look at the Adamantine Mindblade Gauntlet. As a side effect of the way it works, allowing you to swap adamantine on the fly for an existing enhancement, it lets you effectively rearrange your mindblade every time you form one. It reduces your opportunity cost dramatically, since you can just switch back once you've knocked down their buffs.

[The Viscount]

I can see how you would interpret using the Adamantine Mind Blade Gauntlet, but even with the sloppy wording, I don't see how you're doing more than just altering your +1 abilities. Yes every time you shape your mind blade you can choose between the +1 or the regular benefit, but how does that give you a complete reshuffling of all your enhancements? It can break a +2 into a +1 and the adamantine, but how do you plan to use the poor wording to gain different +2 or +3 changes?

Also, wouldn't a soulknife pursuing this level of optimization trade in the psychic strike for the superior bonus feats?

[mabriss lethe]

I can see how you would interpret using the Adamantine Mind Blade Gauntlet, but even with the sloppy wording, I don't see how you're doing more than just altering your +1 abilities. Yes every time you shape your mind blade you can choose between the +1 or the regular benefit, but how does that give you a complete reshuffling of all your enhancements? It can break a +2 into a +1 and the adamantine, but how do you plan to use the poor wording to gain different +2 or +3 changes?

The free for all comes mostly from the wording of the example, which flat out states that you can choose every time you form it. The example doesn't say "or apply its original configuration" or anything similar,

It says: "For example, a 6th-level soulknife wearing the gauntlets could either choose to apply the gauntlets' effect or apply one of the +1 enhancement bonus value properties given on the table (EPH 29). A 10th-level soulknife could apply both the gauntlets' effect and a +1 enhancement bonus value property rather than applying a combination of properties from the table totaling +2."

That heavily implies, if not outright states, that the player has free reign to choose at the time of forming the blade and is not limited to its original configuration.

However, if that's not good enough, a weaker shuffle can be performed simply by rotating what the adamantine replaces every time you draw it.

Say you've got a +3 enhancement. You start with soulbreaker. Draw your mindblade using the gauntlet making it an adamantine collision. Draw it again. This time break up collision, reforming it into a suppressing adamantine. Draw it a third time. Break up suppressing and make it adamantine lucky psychokinetic, reform again as your soulbreaker. rinse, repeat.



Also, wouldn't a soulknife pursuing this level of optimization trade in the psychic strike for the superior bonus feats?

Well, yeah, obviously. Like I said, it's possible, but not necessarily the most optimal solution. My optimal soulknife build would be a Kalashtar using both of the Mind's Eye acfs to pick up Hidden Talent, combat psionic feats, and ToB feats (assassin stance comes to mind with maybe craven to top it off) while using most of its non-ACF feats for Kalashtar Mind link to boost ML to full HD and then illithid heritage/legacies to grant some bootstrap manifesting along with some decent perks and topping off with expanded knowledge to fill in minor powers like Hustle and P. Lion's Charge.

[ericgrau]

I'll be interested to see if this manages to go off, but my best actual prediction.. neither Samurai nor Soulknife have much in the way of relevant class features. Therefore, especially at higher levels, I expect these fights will be determined almost entirely by the equipment and feat choices of the combatants. I also suspect they're likely to look quite similar in that respect, since they both want roughly the same things out of their equipment. Soulknife's main feature may give him an edge there, in that the mindblade potentially frees up a significant amount of money.

For the record, I think Samurai is just that little bit worse off than Soulknife, and I'd be willing to attempt to provide a Soulknife of up to level 5 to compete in that level range.

This is a really good point, it probably is mostly equipment and feats. The poster's skill with these may determine the outcome more than the actual class.

I propose instead that people post their best soulknife or samurai build but then build nearly the same thing with the other class. Either the same person or another person can adapt the build from the original class onto the other. Or simply allow people to copy and tweak each other's builds when making a competing build from either class.

[mabriss lethe]

This is a really good point, it probably is mostly equipment and feats. The poster's skill with these may determine the outcome more than the actual class.

I propose instead that people post their best soulknife or samurai build but then build nearly the same thing with the other class. Either the same person or another person can adapt the build from the original class onto the other. Or simply allow people to copy and tweak each other's builds when making a competing build from either class.

I would almost propose the opposite. Strip everything down to bare bones. Home brew a "testbed race" that doesn't grant any ability modifiers or special tricks. Medium sized, elite array. I might even go so far as to strip them of level derived feats, so it's literally just the chassis and class abilities that you've got to rely on. WBL would probably have to change to "Just bare bones" Only level appropriate items that enhance a characteristic the class already uses. Limit weapons to Daisho vs Mindblade. We're not comparing how good you are at buying the right tools. We're comparing classes.

[ericgrau]

WBL is a basic part of the game though. You shouldn't ever omit it or it'll skew things. Heck the soulknife's #1 class feature is saving on WBL. How they perform in a low magic item setting is a completely different question. In fact I think I've heard before "I would only take soulknife in a low magic item setting where I couldn't get a magic weapon."

[ottdmk]

Without magical gear, it's very likely that a 20th level Samurai would toast a 20th level Soulknife. Highly unlikely the Soulknife would survive the Samurai's demoralizing ability.

[The Viscount]

I would almost propose the opposite. Strip everything down to bare bones. Home brew a "testbed race" that doesn't grant any ability modifiers or special tricks. Medium sized, elite array. I might even go so far as to strip them of level derived feats, so it's literally just the chassis and class abilities that you've got to rely on. WBL would probably have to change to "Just bare bones" Only level appropriate items that enhance a characteristic the class already uses. Limit weapons to Daisho vs Mindblade. We're not comparing how good you are at buying the right tools. We're comparing classes.

I mean we already have half-elf. It'd be equally useful (that is, useless) to both classes.

If you're depriving them of regular feats, then the we can find quite easily who will win. Same HD and no effects dependent on saves mean those chassis aspects are out of the equation. Both have a bastard sword, both are going to put the most investment in strength, so we can run all the numbers without needing characters.

Let's say both classes invested 14 in con, 13 in dex, and the samurai put his 12 in cha. Both characters have 15 in strength and all increases here (20) means a +5 on rolls, so the samurai is rolling at +25 for their first attack (or +26 if they get a masterwork one). The soulknife is rolling at +27 (15 from BAB, 2 from GWF, 5 from enhancement). A small edge to the soulknife in attacks, but if both classes are allowed armor the soulknife is stuck with light while the samurai has heavy, which tilts the effective chance of success back to samurai, especially considering they have one more attack. If the samurai uses both swords they're throwing on a -2 penalty, but taking AC into account they're still coming out ahead. Damage output is in favor of the soulknife per hit (1d10+12 vs 1d10+7, or +5 if TWF). If we convert to averages, the soulknife deals 17.5X3= 52.5 compared to samurai's 12.5X4= 50 if the samurai is two-handing. Edge soulknife.

Now let's assume both classes are going for damage, so the soulknife has a psychic strike charged, with collision and psychokinetic, and the samurai is TWFing and makes use of his smite. Soulknife's damage is averaged to 25X3=75 +22.5= 97.5 damage, 75 on subsequent rounds. Samurai's damage is averaged to 10.5X4=42 + 5.5X3 + 1= 59.5 for 4 rounds, 58.5 on subsequent. The soulknife here has a large advantage. Both classes will have the same average health, 20d10+40=154 hp (rounding down). Soulknife will hit that in 2 rounds, samurai requires 3. Regardless of who wins initiative (samurai has the edge), soulknife wins.

This little exercise assumed both classes just full attack every round, and that soulknife's psychic strike was already charged. If for whatever reason it was not, then both classes require 3 rounds, and the winner of initiative will be the winner of the fight. Samurai is rolling at +5 opposed to soulknife's +1, but it's not exactly a huge advantage. I didn't take missing or the soulknife having keen into account, because that would require more complicated analysis, and would bring in the randomness of the dice, which favor nobody.

We have a winner, but this is very far removed from a regular combat, and even further from normal play. There's such a thing as too abstract.

[DrKerosene]

I would almost propose the opposite. Strip everything down to bare bones. Home brew a "testbed race" that doesn't grant any ability modifiers or special tricks. Medium sized, elite array. I might even go so far as to strip them of level derived feats, so it's literally just the chassis and class abilities that you've got to rely on. WBL would probably have to change to "Just bare bones" Only level appropriate items that enhance a characteristic the class already uses. Limit weapons to Daisho vs Mindblade. We're not comparing how good you are at buying the right tools. We're comparing classes.

I've been thinking similarly. Maybe in the style of iron chef, villanous, etc, except a handful of Samurai and Soulknife builds are submited, and then a short series of challenges are used to judge the builds at various levels. Maybe assuming pre-selected gear for each level too?

Though, this is the "same challenge" method someone mentioned earlier in the thread, unless one of the challenges is head to head combat....

[Calthropstu]

I mean we already have half-elf. It'd be equally useful (that is, useless) to both classes.

If you're depriving them of regular feats, then the we can find quite easily who will win. Same HD and no effects dependent on saves mean those chassis aspects are out of the equation. Both have a bastard sword, both are going to put the most investment in strength, so we can run all the numbers without needing characters.

Let's say both classes invested 14 in con, 13 in dex, and the samurai put his 12 in cha. Both characters have 15 in strength and all increases here (20) means a +5 on rolls, so the samurai is rolling at +25 for their first attack (or +26 if they get a masterwork one). The soulknife is rolling at +27 (15 from BAB, 2 from GWF, 5 from enhancement). A small edge to the soulknife in attacks, but if both classes are allowed armor the soulknife is stuck with light while the samurai has heavy, which tilts the effective chance of success back to samurai, especially considering they have one more attack. If the samurai uses both swords they're throwing on a -2 penalty, but taking AC into account they're still coming out ahead. Damage output is in favor of the soulknife per hit (1d10+12 vs 1d10+7, or +5 if TWF). If we convert to averages, the soulknife deals 17.5X3= 52.5 compared to samurai's 12.5X4= 50 if the samurai is two-handing. Edge soulknife.

Now let's assume both classes are going for damage, so the soulknife has a psychic strike charged, with collision and psychokinetic, and the samurai is TWFing and makes use of his smite. Soulknife's damage is averaged to 25X3=75 +22.5= 97.5 damage, 75 on subsequent rounds. Samurai's damage is averaged to 10.5X4=42 + 5.5X3 + 1= 59.5 for 4 rounds, 58.5 on subsequent. The soulknife here has a large advantage. Both classes will have the same average health, 20d10+40=154 hp (rounding down). Soulknife will hit that in 2 rounds, samurai requires 3. Regardless of who wins initiative (samurai has the edge), soulknife wins.

This little exercise assumed both classes just full attack every round, and that soulknife's psychic strike was already charged. If for whatever reason it was not, then both classes require 3 rounds, and the winner of initiative will be the winner of the fight. Samurai is rolling at +5 opposed to soulknife's +1, but it's not exactly a huge advantage. I didn't take missing or the soulknife having keen into account, because that would require more complicated analysis, and would bring in the randomness of the dice, which favor nobody.

We have a winner, but this is very far removed from a regular combat, and even further from normal play. There's such a thing as too abstract.

Except the soulknife can simply pick keen. The soulknife has a +5 weapon with an additional +4 of different enhancements to choose from, totalling a +9. One of those choices is keen. Another choice is sundering... which will completely wreck the samurai's day. Another option is extra damage, giving further advantage to the soulknife in that regard.
If we factor in gold, this is a 160k weapon for free... a 25% increase of wealth by level essentially. That is fairly significant.
Yes, the samurai can purchase a better weapon... but he is spending a good chunk of his wealth on it, and it won't be much better.
Meanwhile, where the samurai is spending out the ass on a weapon, the soulknife can afford some sweet armor, countering a good amount of the bonuses from the samurai's sword.
Ultimately, the samurai is at a disadvantage every step of the way... monetarily, damage wise, soulknife has more options... in fact, unless the fight starts less than 120 feet away, the soulknife is guaranteed first strike... because the mindblade can be thrown with a full attack, gaining all of his attacks including the psychic strike.
I am calling it... the soulknife beats the samurai hands down. The range multiple throw attack clinches it.
The soulknife simply has more options than the samurai.

[lord_khaine]

If you wanted a good comparison, that did not depend on who the best shopper was, then you could always make a standard adventure package of armor/stat boosters/assorted utility items. And then give the Samurai a +9 sword, and the Soulknife an additional 160k to upgrade items for?

[The Viscount]

Except the soulknife can simply pick keen. The soulknife has a +5 weapon with an additional +4 of different enhancements to choose from, totalling a +9. One of those choices is keen. Another choice is sundering... which will completely wreck the samurai's day. Another option is extra damage, giving further advantage to the soulknife in that regard.
If we factor in gold, this is a 160k weapon for free... a 25% increase of wealth by level essentially. That is fairly significant.
Yes, the samurai can purchase a better weapon... but he is spending a good chunk of his wealth on it, and it won't be much better.
Meanwhile, where the samurai is spending out the ass on a weapon, the soulknife can afford some sweet armor, countering a good amount of the bonuses from the samurai's sword.
Ultimately, the samurai is at a disadvantage every step of the way... monetarily, damage wise, soulknife has more options... in fact, unless the fight starts less than 120 feet away, the soulknife is guaranteed first strike... because the mindblade can be thrown with a full attack, gaining all of his attacks including the psychic strike.
I am calling it... the soulknife beats the samurai hands down. The range multiple throw attack clinches it.
The soulknife simply has more options than the samurai.

Were you trying to quote someone that wasn't me?
The last section of my post assumes that the soulknife invested in the two straightforward damage enhancements. I did all the math to show that soulknife has a superior damage output compared to the samurai when both have no gear or feats. I said that soulknife would win. Why are you trying to argue with me?

[Tiri]

Were you trying to quote someone that wasn't me?
The last section of my post assumes that the soulknife invested in the two straightforward damage enhancements. I did all the math to show that soulknife has a superior damage output compared to the samurai when both have no gear or feats. I said that soulknife would win. Why are you trying to argue with me?

Well, you weren't very specific in that post on which class you actually thought would win, so it's easy to see how it might be misinterpreted by someone whose math is not quite up to scratch.

[The Viscount]

Regardless of who wins initiative (samurai has the edge), soulknife wins.

I guess this sentence got lost in the paragraphs. I'll just extract it here for relevance.

[ColorBlindNinja]

I can see why we might want to compare builds sans items.

Why would we want to compare them without taking feats into consideration?

[Calthropstu]

Well, you weren't very specific in that post on which class you actually thought would win, so it's easy to see how it might be misinterpreted by someone whose math is not quite up to scratch.

Actually, I was disagreeing that "keen" should be disregarded. Also, the Samurai would probably have improved critical as a feat.. it should be considered.
Also, his information wasn't considering ranged.
We agree who would win, but there are more factors that he wasn't taking into consideration... namely the fact that the Samurai MUST approach the soulknife, meaning the soulknife automatically gets first strike.

[Jormengand]

I too can see why a soulknife apologist may wish to compare the class whose only feature is a third-rate weapon to a class with real armour proficiency as though neither of them had any items. I suppose we're lucky that the samurai's first-level class feature says he gets a katana and wakizashi at first level or you'd be making him try to punch the soulknife until the latter stops moving.

We're also ignoring that the soulknife is absolute trash rather than just relative trash at low levels, where no literally it just has a nonmagical sword and that's it, so how this hypothetical soulknife even survived to reach level 20 (hiding behind a Samurai, who can at least hit things for regular bastard sword damage every round, perhaps?) I don't know.

[ColorBlindNinja]

New thread idea! Divine Mind vs Truenamer! ☺

[Jormengand]

New thread idea! Divine Mind vs Truenamer! ☺

I think the divine mind has a bad day, in short. :smalltongue:

[ColorBlindNinja]

I think the divine mind has a bad day, in short. :smalltongue:

The Mind's Eye actually gives them a few class features, but I think the Truenamer is better at most levels.

[Jormengand]

The Mind's Eye actually gives them a few class features, but I think the Truenamer is better at most levels.

Astral Construct as a psion of one level below is pretty decent, but the Divine Mind still probably dies - at low levels, the DMind is best off trying to greatsword the truenamer and land a real hit on the truenamer's AC probably-15 before the namer reminds the universe that the divine mind would look better if he died.

At medium levels the Divine Mind probably gets the biggest Astral Construct he can find and shoots blindly at the flying invisible truenamer, only the Divine Mind is on fire.

At level 20, the Divine Mind gets his face eaten by a solar.

[mabriss lethe]

I too can see why a soulknife apologist may wish to compare the class whose only feature is a third-rate weapon to a class with real armour proficiency as though neither of them had any items. I suppose we're lucky that the samurai's first-level class feature says he gets a katana and wakizashi at first level or you'd be making him try to punch the soulknife until the latter stops moving.

We're also ignoring that the soulknife is absolute trash rather than just relative trash at low levels, where no literally it just has a nonmagical sword and that's it, so how this hypothetical soulknife even survived to reach level 20 (hiding behind a Samurai, who can at least hit things for regular bastard sword damage every round, perhaps?) I don't know.

If you're referring to my suggestion, I think you're misrepresenting or simply misunderstanding my intentions. My suggestion was to create a sort of testbed that minimized the impact of wbl granting orthogonal abilities. They should be geared with level appropriate toys that build on existing abilities/chassis features, but not granting new ones. Simply because both could buy the same sort of items. As for a hypothetical character built along those parameters surviving? My suggestion was theorycraft, for the sole purpose of benchmarking each class's mechanics in a relative vacuum.

[tyckspoon]

I too can see why a soulknife apologist may wish to compare the class whose only feature is a third-rate weapon to a class with real armour proficiency as though neither of them had any items. I suppose we're lucky that the samurai's first-level class feature says he gets a katana and wakizashi at first level or you'd be making him try to punch the soulknife until the latter stops moving.


The Samurai's first level feature is just Bastard Sword Proficiency. He doesn't actually get the daisho - only the ability to wield the larger sword should he choose to buy one. (If they did get a free daisho, that would be a reasonably nice first level feature, since the katana and wakizashi are explicitly and specifically masterwork.. although probably more usefully used to pawn and buy fighting animals or hIrelings similar to the selling a wizards spellbook trick.)

[Calthropstu]

I too can see why a soulknife apologist may wish to compare the class whose only feature is a third-rate weapon to a class with real armour proficiency as though neither of them had any items. I suppose we're lucky that the samurai's first-level class feature says he gets a katana and wakizashi at first level or you'd be making him try to punch the soulknife until the latter stops moving.

We're also ignoring that the soulknife is absolute trash rather than just relative trash at low levels, where no literally it just has a nonmagical sword and that's it, so how this hypothetical soulknife even survived to reach level 20 (hiding behind a Samurai, who can at least hit things for regular bastard sword damage every round, perhaps?) I don't know.

A decent dex combined with gloves of dex combined with chain shirt gives the soulknife comparable ac to the samurai's full plate... no advantage there.
The best feature of the soulknife is being able to melee the samurai... at range. The Samurai has no defense against that, pretty much making a soulknife beating the samurai a guarantee.
The Samurai's attack pattern (20th) will be 16/16/11/11/6/6/1 (wakizashi is not a light weapon) Let's take the soulknife's base attack pattern: 15/10/5.
Obviously, the Samurai's attack pattern is far better. The soulknife can go the twf route, but he has a far betger option: two handed bastard sword. Since he can throw his mind blade, his best option is to charge his mindblade and throw it as the samurai approaches. Smacking at range for 1d10+5+1d4+5d8+6(34avg) two times before the samurai even gets into melee is a huge advantage.
Oh, and you know that heavy armor? Yeah... the soulknife can move faster. So you move up, soulknife moves away pelting you with bastard swords.
Only way the samurai wins is if he can corner the soulknife.

[shaikujin]

In the Soulknife's Mind Blade section, there are rules that say the Soulknife can make a roll to maintain the Mind Blade in a null psionics field.

Under the PF version, additional rules says that even if he makes the roll, the magical enhancements are still suppressed.

The 3.x version doesn't have this.

I'm wondering if there's any consensus on whether the mindblade retains its enhancements in a null psionics/AMF for the v3.5 Soulknife?

[DEMON]

The Samurai's attack pattern (20th) will be 16/16/11/11/6/6/1 (wakizashi is not a light weapon)

Wakizashi is a masterwork short sword, so it is a light weapon.

[Calthropstu]

Wakizashi is a masterwork short sword, so it is a light weapon.

Errr... where are you getting that from?

[DEMON]

Errr... where are you getting that from?

It's mentioned several times in the Samurai block in Complete Warrior.

Such as the description of his Daisho Proficiency class feature.

[Jormengand]

The Samurai's first level feature is just Bastard Sword Proficiency. He doesn't actually get the daisho - only the ability to wield the larger sword should he choose to buy one. (If they did get a free daisho, that would be a reasonably nice first level feature, since the katana and wakizashi are explicitly and specifically masterwork.. although probably more usefully used to pawn and buy fighting animals or hIrelings similar to the selling a wizards spellbook trick.)

"Many Samurai" apparently do; while I suppose a DM could technically say "You're one of the few samurai who don't!" I don't think I'd ever do that.

[The Viscount]

A decent dex combined with gloves of dex combined with chain shirt gives the soulknife comparable ac to the samurai's full plate... no advantage there.
The best feature of the soulknife is being able to melee the samurai... at range. The Samurai has no defense against that, pretty much making a soulknife beating the samurai a guarantee.
The Samurai's attack pattern (20th) will be 16/16/11/11/6/6/1 (wakizashi is not a light weapon) Let's take the soulknife's base attack pattern: 15/10/5.
Obviously, the Samurai's attack pattern is far better. The soulknife can go the twf route, but he has a far betger option: two handed bastard sword. Since he can throw his mind blade, his best option is to charge his mindblade and throw it as the samurai approaches. Smacking at range for 1d10+5+1d4+5d8+6(34avg) two times before the samurai even gets into melee is a huge advantage.
Oh, and you know that heavy armor? Yeah... the soulknife can move faster. So you move up, soulknife moves away pelting you with bastard swords.
Only way the samurai wins is if he can corner the soulknife.

Throwing a two-handed weapon is a full-round action.

What range are you presuming they are starting at? If soulknife is investing to improve their AC, why is the samurai not investing to improve their speed?

EDIT: We are still looking for someone to run the showdown, any takers?

[Calthropstu]

Throwing a two-handed weapon is a full-round action.

What range are you presuming they are starting at? If soulknife is investing to improve their AC, why is the samurai not investing to improve their speed?

EDIT: We are still looking for someone to run the showdown, any takers?

Not fullround for the soulknife. He gets throw mindblade at a rate of full attack at 30 foot range increments. So with 150 feet range, assuming a starting position of anything greater than that and it's soulknife auto win.
And any speed investment for the samurai can be matched easily by the soulknife... or did you forget the main argument for a soulknife win is that he has more to invest?

[Hackulator]

Not fullround for the soulknife. He gets throw mindblade at a rate of full attack at 30 foot range increments. So with 150 feet range, assuming a starting position of anything greater than that and it's soulknife auto win.
And any speed investment for the samurai can be matched easily by the soulknife... or did you forget the main argument for a soulknife win is that he has more to invest?

Any high level samurai who isn't at least carrying a masterwork composite longbow is an idiot though. With that he massively outranges the soulknife and maybe can even outdamage him with a couple invested feats.

[The Viscount]

Not fullround for the soulknife. He gets throw mindblade at a rate of full attack at 30 foot range increments. So with 150 feet range, assuming a starting position of anything greater than that and it's soulknife auto win.
And any speed investment for the samurai can be matched easily by the soulknife... or did you forget the main argument for a soulknife win is that he has more to invest?

There's nothing in soulknife's writeup that discusses the two-handed throwing rule. Either use the longsword or nab EWP.
The samurai I built has a speed of 80 feet. This means he closes the 150 foot distance in a single charge. I'm not saying a soulknife can never win, but these are not convincing arguments.

You're clearly passionate about this. Did you want to build a soulknife for round 2 so things can be even?

[Bonzai]

I'd like to throw fuel on the fire.

Soulknives are well served by picking up an anti magic torq from Underdark I believe. Once per day it creates an anti magic field. You can have your mind blade ignore it. So now you have your weapon vs their mw weapon. Further more I would go the spring attack route to negate his full attack. It will be your single strike vs his. Psychic strike still works, and if the DM concedes that manifesting your soul blade counts as a draw action you can tie it in to Iajutsu. Free action draw, free action dismiss. Add on feats like flick of the wrist, and skill tricks like Acrobatic back stab and hidden blade. That's three Iajutsu uses per combat without any flanks or other factors.

That's how I would build one.

[Hackulator]

I'd like to throw fuel on the fire.

Soulknives are well served by picking up an anti magic torq from Underdark I believe. Once per day it creates an anti magic field. You can have your mind blade ignore it. So now you have your weapon vs their mw weapon. Further more I would go the spring attack route to negate his full attack. It will be your single strike vs his. Psychic strike still works, and if the DM concedes that manifesting your soul blade counts as a draw action you can tie it in to Iajutsu. Free action draw, free action dismiss. Add on feats like flick of the wrist, and skill tricks like Acrobatic back stab and hidden blade. That's three Iajutsu uses per combat without any flanks or other factors.

That's how I would build one.

Mind Blade is a supernatural ability.

[Tiri]

Mind Blade is a supernatural ability.

Is that a problem?

[ColorBlindNinja]

Is that a problem?

It is if you're using an AMF.

[Zancloufer]

It is if you're using an AMF.

Except the Soulknife's Mind Blade explicitly calls out that if it is in a place where the mind blade would fail to function he can make a DC 20 Will save to keep the blade manifested even in areas where it should be inert.

While it specifically mentions stuff like null-psionic fields it does create a catch: Either Anti-Magic and Null-Psionics are the same, or being a Psionic Ability it isn't effected by anti/dead magic zones.

[Hackulator]

Except the Soulknife's Mind Blade explicitly calls out that if it is in a place where the mind blade would fail to function he can make a DC 20 Will save to keep the blade manifested even in areas where it should be inert.

While it specifically mentions stuff like null-psionic fields it does create a catch: Either Anti-Magic and Null-Psionics are the same, or being a Psionic Ability it isn't effected by anti/dead magic zones.

I forgot about that part you are correct. Generally, I always rule the magic and psionics function the same in terms of AMF and NPF being the same thing and PR ans SR being the same thing, otherwise it gets really annoying and the fact that a lot of books just weren't created with psionics in mind becomes a problem.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Except the Soulknife's Mind Blade explicitly calls out that if it is in a place where the mind blade would fail to function he can make a DC 20 Will save to keep the blade manifested even in areas where it should be inert.

While it specifically mentions stuff like null-psionic fields it does create a catch: Either Anti-Magic and Null-Psionics are the same, or being a Psionic Ability it isn't effected by anti/dead magic zones.

Ah, that would solve that problem.

But what if your opponent can fly?

[mabriss lethe]

Ah, that would solve that problem.

But what if your opponent can fly?

Depends on the ability granting flight and how far away from you they are. Suppression mindblades coupled to a manifester level will have a really good shot at interrupting many types of magic flight at melee and close range, assuming the opponent is able to be hit. Innate flight, however, would require different tactics. As would a long distance between opponents.

[Eldariel]

Depends on the ability granting flight and how far away from you they are. Suppression mindblades coupled to a manifester level will have a really good shot at interrupting many types of magic flight at melee and close range, assuming the opponent is able to be hit. Innate flight, however, would require different tactics. As would a long distance between opponents.

In any case, Mindblade offers no easy option for trapping an enemy. An enemy under the effect of a Fly-spell need but walk 10' back (taking AoO or Tumbling) and take flight probably reaching heights where trying to envelop the enemy in an AMF is a fool's errand (of course, an area with a low roof is a different matter). And of course, if an enemy can engage at a range vs. AMF-trapped Soulknife, Soulblade or not the Soulknife is in trouble as none of the Soulknife's defensive magic items nor stat boosters are working inside the AMF while the attacker has access to everything. This is a summary of why AMF takes a lot of effort to use (you need some way to immediately kill the enemy or to keep them in the AMF) - at that point the Soulknife is probably best off dismissing the AMF and engaging conventionally after having traded in an attack or two.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Depends on the ability granting flight and how far away from you they are. Suppression mindblades coupled to a manifester level will have a really good shot at interrupting many types of magic flight at melee and close range, assuming the opponent is able to be hit. Innate flight, however, would require different tactics. As would a long distance between opponents.

The Samurai I built, at least, can fly without magic.

[mabriss lethe]

The Samurai I built, at least, can fly without magic.

Then the soulknife should hope to have some comparable capacity to move in 3 dimensions. Then it's just a matter of bringing the fight back to the opponent.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Then the soulknife should hope to have some comparable capacity to move in 3 dimensions. Then it's just a matter of bringing the fight back to the opponent.

He'd need natural flight, and this is ignoring fear effects the Samurai can bring to bear.

[mabriss lethe]

He'd need natural flight, and this is ignoring fear effects the Samurai can bring to bear.

If it can be acquired by one class that doesn't have it, it can be acquired by another class that doesn't have it. (one of the reasons I advocated a stripped down "benchmark" comparison, it eliminates a lot of the noise created by magic items.) By level 20, both characters can acquire various means of flight and high resistance/immunity to fear, along with a host of other toys, gizmos, and gadgets.

How this applies to deploying an AMF: That's all about the timing. Just because you can, doesn't mean you should. If you've got it, you use it when it's most beneficial to you, or not at all. In a fight like this, it would be something akin to a quick and dirty finisher. Once you've got an opponent more or less under control, then you trigger the AMF to knock out a good chunk of the surprises they can deploy and finish it. That goes for either character.

[ColorBlindNinja]

If it can be acquired by one class that doesn't have it, it can be acquired by another class that doesn't have it. (one of the reasons I advocated a stripped down "benchmark" comparison, it eliminates a lot of the noise created by magic items.) By level 20, both characters can acquire various means of flight and high resistance/immunity to fear, along with a host of other toys, gizmos, and gadgets.

- The Soulknife is going to invest the resources necessary for a fear build?

- How are you going to get immunity to fear?


How this applies to deploying an AMF: That's all about the timing. Just because you can, doesn't mean you should. If you've got it, you use it when it's most beneficial to you, or not at all. In a fight like this, it would be something akin to a quick and dirty finisher. Once you've got an opponent more or less under control, then you trigger the AMF to knock out a good chunk of the surprises they can deploy and finish it. That goes for either character.

I'd recommend against using an AMF like that; AMF tactics suit casters with Selective Spell/Cheater of Mystra.

[mabriss lethe]

It doesn't really matter, because this particular fight scenario will boil down to nth dimensional chess primarily won via wealth by level since neither class has any innate abilities that go past the "checkers" level of play. That doesn't give us the slightest indication of which class is king of this particular crap pile, just which player is better at gear optimization. You can get this, I can get that. But you can counter that with this, I can shut it down with that. so on and so forth ad nauseum. A combination of action economy boosters, level appropriate defenses/immunities, and tactical movement options deployed at the right time in conjunction with even decent damage, (that either can provide) would simply end the encounter, regardless of whether it's the soulknife or the samurai that deploys it.

[dude123nice]

I like how utterly badass the title sounds if you don't know anything about the two classes.

[DrKerosene]

- The Soulknife is going to invest the resources necessary for a fear build?

I was under the impression this was about being able to use the same resources to also get non-magic Fly as the Samurai. Mind you, you already said "Cowl of Warding", so I assume that answers your question here too.



I'd recommend against using an AMF like that; AMF tactics suit casters with Selective Spell/Cheater of Mystra.

I'm unfamiliar with the Cheater of Mystra Samurai-20 build, what spells are they using? I'm only aware of ways to acquire cantrips, but I'd be interested to see your magic using samurai build.

[ColorBlindNinja]

I was under the impression this was about being able to use the same resources to also get non-magic Fly as the Samurai. Mind you, you already said "Cowl of Warding", so I assume that answers your question here too.

I don't think the Soulknife's player could afford one.



I'm unfamiliar with the Cheater of Mystra Samurai-20 build, what spells are they using? I'm only aware of ways to acquire cantrips, but I'd be interested to see your magic using samurai build.

I was talking about AMF tactics in general, not this duel specifically.

I guess you could try a Contingent Selective AMF, but that's expensive and seems a little much for this debate.

[The Viscount]

Nice to see there are still some people interested.

Anyone interested enough to oversee the showdown? We could do it here in PbP, and it shouldn't take more than a few rounds either way.