Mulling over character possibilities

[RavynsLand]

After DMing a campaign for nearly a year now (and with our group having just gotten to level 11), one of my players recently offered to start a campaign of his own so that I'd get to play once in a while. As one of those "always a DM, never a player" types in recent years, I find myself filled with elation -- but what should I make? We'll be starting at level 1 btw.

The other two players are very new to the game, and while one is taking to it pretty well, the other is lagging behind a little. As such, I want to make something that's useful and helpful to the group as a whole, but also something that I can feel... y'know... badass playing. I'm also determined to multiclass, 'cause I just love multiclassing, and wanna try to come up with something interesting.

Options I have in mind so far are High Elf Bladesinger 11/Arcane Trickster 9, being something of a utility caster and sneaky bastard in general, with plenty of ability to become a combat nuisance in the throes of bladesong. Another possibility I've put some thought into is Tiefling Favored Soul (Life or Death domain) 16/Battlemaster 4 (or 17/3, maybe?), to make a kinda melee support/buffer/debuffer/nuker with more limited out-of-combat utility but a lot of combat usefulness.

Then again, maybe something with Land Druid? Land Druid/Hunter Ranger maybe? Agh, so many possibilities!

Any recommendations from y'all? As a flavorful character concept that can both be helpful and cool, would the Bladesinger or Favored Soul be more viable? Any other cool class combos that might fit the bill?

P.S. I'm really not a fan of 1-2 level dips, they feel... wrong, somehow, in a roleplaying sense.

[Finger6842]

What stats? It can make a big difference in the choices.
Only 2 good stats then choose from fighter and thief, (dex, con)
multiclass only these two
3 good ones choose cleric, druid, barb, ranger, wizard, lock, bards, sorc, paladin (primary cast stat plus dex, con)
multiclass any that share all 3 stats you chose.
4 good ones choose any class above and multiclass as desired.

Mechanically this is how I choose. Thematically do whatever you like and compensate for the mechanical shortcomings with brilliant tactical play.

[BillyBobShorton]

Kick ass-Battlemaster6/Tempest Cleric> Bugbear Polearm Master & Sentinel Feats. Lightning, pushback, 15'Melee, reaction attacks, cleric goodness and maneuvers.

Utility-Diviner2/LoreBard>. Lucky Feat and maybe Mage initiate Cleric for guidance. Rerolls and buffs for days. Plus 4 spells from any list. Fun to role play, more fun to alter dice, more funner to fly and shiot fireballs and cast wish

Caster-Moon Druid. Don't bother with land-improved shapeshift destroys a few wizard spells any day.

Destroyer-Warlock/Evoker

Healer-Life Cleric mage initiate Druid for shillelllelleghlliegh and goodberries. 40 hp to carry around free every day. Sometimes 80 if cast before & after rest.

Rogue-Arcane Trickster or Bladesinger/Swashbuckler

Tank-Bear Totem

Missile-Assassin3/Ranger>

Sneaky-Shadow Monk 6 (at least)/Trickery Cleric Assassin gels well here also

[RavynsLand]

What stats?

I haven't rolled yet x_x But I will keep this in mind. The Favored Soul is definitely a bit more MAD but the Bladesinger should be able to thrive on dex and int alone, with con as a supplement. So we shall see.


Badass- Battlemaster6/Tempest Cleric>

Utility-Diviner2/LoreBard>

Caster-Moon Druid

Destroyer-Warlock/Evoker

Healer-Life Cleric mage initiate Druid

Rogue-Arcane Trickster or Bladesinger/Swashbuckler

Tank-Bear Totem

Missile-Assassin3/Ranger>

Sneaky-Shadow Monk 6 (at least)/Trickery Cleric (Assassin)

*hastily scribbles notes* What's so good about Warlock/Evoker, specifically? Also I thought Bladesinger and Swashbuckler had conflicting stat placement (int and cha, respectively)?

Don't really care for moon druid just 'cause I personally don't care for shapeshifting. Keeping the tempest warrior in mind though -- I'd probably bite at it if our other campaign didn't already have TWO spear guys.

[BillyBobShorton]

I haven't rolled yet x_x But I will keep this in mind. The Favored Soul is definitely a bit more MAD but the Bladesinger should be able to thrive on dex and int alone, with con as a supplement. So we shall see.



*hastily scribbles notes* What's so good about Warlock/Evoker, specifically? Also I thought Bladesinger and Swashbuckler had conflicting stat placement (int and cha, respectively)?

Don't really care for moon druid just 'cause I personally don't care for shapeshifting. Keeping the tempest warrior in mind though -- I'd probably bite at it if our other campaign didn't already have TWO spear guys.
I see conflicting stat placement as almost a myth. Yes, there is math involved, but so is role playing. Sure, everyone wants perception, but in my experiemce as a DM, 80% of the time all the party needs is 1 solid perception score among the papers to spot something. There are exceptions, but if you were to take a moderate wisdom, dump str, moderate con, jack your dex, int, and cha, you'd have quite the interesting character capable of melee, roleplaying, area spells, buffs, and sneaking. Not to mention showmanship. So you're a little aloof and don't pay much attention. Stats can be raised, and paired with stat bump feats, the right race, the Blade-buckler (now that I understand BS better) can be a fantastic filler for a party and even the face in non-combat situations. Almost a variant Bard.

High/low stats start out that way, but with the long game in mind, high levels... you'd be well served to not have any dump stats remain at their original score.


Warlock-evoker... all I can say is creativity is a must. You get instant access to a lot of useful spells and abilities with warlock that may evade you for a while or be passed over in favor of more hard-hitting spells as wizard. Free mage armor? Devil's sight? Silent Image as a cantrip, basically? Command, hex... too much goodness to specify. A million combinations.

Moon druid... your choice and opinion, man. But shapeahifting, IMO, does more than just make you have extra HP and attack options for combat. You gain many abilities that you's need spells for otherwise. Even at CR1. Advantage on perception, pack tactics, darkvision, stealth, become a mount for another pc, climbing, blending in, mobility, sense of smell, tiny things like a rat to scout ahead, water-breathingn etc... plus buff spells you can cast beforehand and get a higher con to concentrate on.

Cast heat metal, turn into an animal with multiattacks and pounce, help the party tank destroy a big bad in plate or chainmail like a hot knife through butter. Or call lightning... at 8th level you can fly above out of harm's way while electrocuting a small horde. Many, many possibilities. Plus the extra life, maintaining mental stats, and bonus action to transform. Eventually you can cast spells in animal form... so you get many abilities granted by spells, more life than most pc's, all your druid spells, and insanely better options... or land, which is a handful of mage spells, most of them utility rather than dmg-utilities that can be matched or exceeded in CR2-3-4 beast forms. Plus you can turn into a tree or small weed. How useful for spying?

I like the subtle wizard flavor of land, but I think Moon gives you plenty of spell casting already plus a whole plethora of insane options.

Just my long-winded 2cents. Good luck with your choice.

Ps-isn't there some stupid rule about spears not being useable as polearms? So maybe go halberd and get that bonus action hilt attack, as well as all the nice knockback. Great weapon fighting style... can even take cleric at 1 because tempest gets martial weapons & heavy armor.

Enjoy.

[Finger6842]

I haven't rolled yet x_x But I will keep this in mind. The Favored Soul is definitely a bit more MAD but the Bladesinger should be able to thrive on dex and int alone, with con as a supplement. So we shall see.



*hastily scribbles notes* What's so good about Warlock/Evoker, specifically? Also I thought Bladesinger and Swashbuckler had conflicting stat placement (int and cha, respectively)?

Don't really care for moon druid just 'cause I personally don't care for shapeshifting. Keeping the tempest warrior in mind though -- I'd probably bite at it if our other campaign didn't already have TWO spear guys.

Warlock and evoker have good synergy. A little too combat oriented for my taste. Lore Bard is my favorite class when the party has a tank. They are not comparatively powerful but can fill almost any roll other than tank. They are also a ton of fun to RP because they have so many skills. The capstone is crap so a dip into another class is easy and changes the flavor of the character overall. Gishes are nice but not my cup of tea.

[Potato_Priest]

Well, if you want to feel like a badass, wizard/rogue isn't what I'd pick. You spend a lot of time running away as either of those classes (I do at least) just because you don't have a lot of HP.

A real badass build would be barbarian/fighter or barbarian/paladin, with excellent tanking ability (damage resistance) as well as great burst damage potential (smites or action surge).

Barbarian 9/paladin 11 is a good place to end up, because you get your +3 rage damage as well as doing mini-smites on every hit.

[Beelzebubba]

I'm in a similar boat - old-school D&D player with a crowd of newbies to medium level experience - and loving the hell out of my Wood Elf Land Druid.

Most of my powers are support - battlefield control, buffing, scouting - so I rarely take the center stage. What I do is set up the battlefield so they take center stage. Faerie Fire, Entangle, Fog Cloud, Spike Stones, etc. all swing the battles in big ways, but they're the ones doing the big damage.

Wild Shape is great for utility also. Spying, scouting, tracking (high Survival, high Wisdom + advantage in Wolf or Dog form). It's an ability that rewards cleverness.

I chose Land over Moon because the spellcasting is *significantly* stronger - it doubles the known 2nd to 5th level spells, and gives 15% more spells per day due to Natural Recovery - so I feel like I'm a perfect blend of Cleric and Wizard with a nature theme.

I find the breadth of abilities make for a really fun, complex, multi-faceted character that lets me delve into a bunch of different rules systems and styles of play over the course of a campaign.

Druid 20 is bad-ass enough as-is. I keep wanting to drop a few levels into Ranger, but each level of Druid is so rewarding that I keep changing my mind. That said, going UA Ranger 2 or 5 on top of Druid + sharpshooter might be great fun for a Rambo level forest ninja sniper. First level Ranger spells are quite effective when boosted to higher level spell slots, and that would round out the only Druid weakness - ranged damage.

[RavynsLand]

Well, if you want to feel like a badass, wizard/rogue isn't what I'd pick. You spend a lot of time running away as either of those classes (I do at least) just because you don't have a lot of HP.

But Bladesinger thooooooough. The more I look into it the more I wanna do it. Sure Bladesong only lasts a minute but what combats last that long? You get sky-high AC and better movement. Tack on a familiar to give Advantage and suddenly every attack, no matter what, is a sneak attack. Booming Blade, sneak attack, Cunning Action to disengage, and see if they even wanna come after me after that. I see it as a high-damaging hit-and-run melee wasp with enough utility to shine out of combat, too. I'm having a really hard time not going this way even if it isn't maybe the MOST optimized.

[BillyBobShorton]

Grab the mobile or charger feat at some point for even MORE Flash-like shenanigans. Or alert for absurd initiative. Lol.

[Potato_Priest]

I'm having a really hard time not going this way even if it isn't maybe the MOST optimized.

Well, by all means do what you wish to do. My suggestion probably wasn't the MOST optimized either, when you get down to it. Just be aware that you might not feel like such a badass if/when you end up having to retreat after taking just a couple of hits.

Mechanically, your choice is great. I'm just worried that it won't feel like it. This generally comes from a place of personal experience.

Often times, I think that I want to play a fast, hard hitting glass cannon. In reality though, when a frost giant reduces me to 4hp in one round of lucky swings and I have to sit on the sidelines plinking for the rest of the fight my attitude quickly changes to "screw this, I'm playing a tank next time."

That's why I said something. Conceptually I'm fine with being fragile, but in actuality it feels terrible. Hopefully you don't find the same thing.

[BillyBobShorton]

I'm in a similar boat - old-school D&D player with a crowd of newbies to medium level experience - and loving the hell out of my Wood Elf Land Druid.

Most of my powers are support - battlefield control, buffing, scouting - so I rarely take the center stage. What I do is set up the battlefield so they take center stage. Faerie Fire, Entangle, Fog Cloud, Spike Stones, etc. all swing the battles in big ways, but they're the ones doing the big damage.

Wild Shape is great for utility also. Spying, scouting, tracking (high Survival, high Wisdom + advantage in Wolf or Dog form). It's an ability that rewards cleverness.

I chose Land over Moon because the spellcasting is *significantly* stronger - it doubles the known 2nd to 5th level spells, and gives 15% more spells per day due to Natural Recovery - so I feel like I'm a perfect blend of Cleric and Wizard with a nature theme.

I find the breadth of abilities make for a really fun, complex, multi-faceted character that lets me delve into a bunch of different rules systems and styles of play over the course of a campaign.

Druid 20 is bad-ass enough as-is. I keep wanting to drop a few levels into Ranger, but each level of Druid is so rewarding that I keep changing my mind. That said, going UA Ranger 2 or 5 on top of Druid + sharpshooter might be great fun for a Rambo level forest ninja sniper. First level Ranger spells are quite effective when boosted to higher level spell slots, and that would round out the only Druid weakness - ranged damage.

You make a fair case for land druid. They do have some nice options available and the arcane recovery is sweet. Perhaps it is more balanced than it appears on paper.

I'm just an option whore and the amount of stuff Moon can do with so many more shapeshift options... seems more suited to my unorthodoxed playstyle. But for purely arcane-ish power as a support/control/buff/debuff style caster, Land does have the clear edge. But... tiger shape at level 2... mmmmm.... tigerrrrsss..... they're great!

[RavynsLand]

Well, by all means do what you wish to do. My suggestion probably wasn't the MOST optimized either, when you get down to it. Just be aware that you might not feel like such a badass if/when you end up having to retreat after taking just a couple of hits.

Mechanically, your choice is great. I'm just worried that it won't feel like it. This generally comes from a place of personal experience.

Often times, I think that I want to play a fast, hard hitting glass cannon. In reality though, when a frost giant reduces me to 4hp in one round of lucky swings and I have to sit on the sidelines plinking for the rest of the fight my attitude quickly changes to "screw this, I'm playing a tank next time."

That's why I said something. Conceptually I'm fine with being fragile, but in actuality it feels terrible. Hopefully you don't find the same thing.

Hah, all very good points. Hrmm... well it may depend on the stats I roll, I guess. If I get good enough int and dex, I'll be able to afford to have a solid con and spend a feat on Tough. Suddenly, bye-bye squishee. But that's gonna be rough and I've got a number of other feats I wanna take (Elven Accuracy at the very least).

[BillyBobShorton]

Well, by all means do what you wish to do. My suggestion probably wasn't the MOST optimized either, when you get down to it. Just be aware that you might not feel like such a badass if/when you end up having to retreat after taking just a couple of hits.

Mechanically, your choice is great. I'm just worried that it won't feel like it. This generally comes from a place of personal experience.

Often times, I think that I want to play a fast, hard hitting glass cannon. In reality though, when a frost giant reduces me to 4hp in one round of lucky swings and I have to sit on the sidelines plinking for the rest of the fight my attitude quickly changes to "screw this, I'm playing a tank next time."

That's why I said something. Conceptually I'm fine with being fragile, but in actuality it feels terrible. Hopefully you don't find the same thing.

Free disengage. Bonus action dash or hide. Uncanny dodge. Expertise in stealth. Mobile feat or longstrider/expeditious retreat. Tabaxi/wood elf... A fast rogue is damn near impossible to hit in melee if played right. The idea isn't to be a melee fighter. It's to become an actual ranged weapon. Houseflies die easy. But they are hard to hit/catch. Their defense is so good it almost nullifies their lack of durability.

Besides, it's not always about optimization. Math and number crunching is useful, but having a FUN character you really enjoy with unusual abilities can easily make one forget about max dmg, tons of HP, or perfect AC/DC/SAVE builds.

Fundamentally the "experience" of D&D as a player is that you get to BE a character in another world. Creating a character and building a pc go hand in hand, but they are not necessarily the same thing nowadays. One is the embracement of a personality, a lifestyle, and a defining set of skills. The other is an exercise in efficiency; utilizing as many available multiplication formulas as you can manage to harvest off the rules tree. Which can be as fun for some players as it is for others playing (what we'd consider a hopeless build) a gnome beastmaster/Paladin/4 elements monk

The main "rule" really is to have fun. For some that's crafting a mathematically perfected Bearbarian or Assassin/Monk. For others, it's doing whatever seems cool, numbers be damned.

Does the guy 1-shotting hill giants with his perfect triple smite advantage build Half Orc Barbar-adin "do better" at D&D than the goofball who uses his sacked 8 int for hilarious role-playing and comvat decisions? Is there a proper way to "go about D&D"? Not really. True, the optimizer may have a better chance making it past a nig boss later on than the fighter with 19 in charisma and a ritual caster feat... but I guess there's a thought that the game is more a journey than a destination. As long as the journey is fun, who cares if or when you end up somewhere or not?

And this is not to knock any of your initial feedback. I'm just offering a counter perspective. Most of the time a clever player, particularly an experienced DM, can get around mis-matched builds by virtue of dealing with adversity and unexpectedness, as well as having to rules monger and study for so long.

The Bladebuckler may not be the next Elmister on a power level, but I bet he'll be one of the OP's most memorable and beloved pc's for years to come.

....unless he gets outright killed by some crummy arrow crit at level one...

Kinda funny thinking about it like that...

[RavynsLand]

Chewing on how to make it work and come online at a low level.

Thoughts:

Race: High Elf or Feral Tiefling. Ultimately depends on whether the DM allows wings and how badly I want Booming Blade at first level.

1. Rogue
2. Rogue (Cunning Action)
3. Arcane Trickster (level 1 spell slots)
4. Wizard (Familiar)
5. Bladesinger (Bladesong, level 2 spell slots)
CLASS COMES ONLINE
6. ArT (ASI)
7. ArT (Uncanny Dodge)
8. ArT
9. BS (level 3 spell slots)
10. BS (ASI)
11. BS (level 4 spell slots)
12. BS (extra attack)
13. ArT
14. ArT (ASI)
15. ArT (Magical ambush, level 5 spell slots)
16. BS
17. BS (level 6 spell slots)
18. BS
19. BS (level 7 spell slots)
20. BS

[Finger6842]

Chewing on how to make it work and come online at a low level.

Thoughts:

Race: High Elf or Feral Tiefling. Ultimately depends on whether the DM allows wings and how badly I want Booming Blade at first level.

1. Rogue
2. Rogue (Cunning Action)
3. Arcane Trickster (level 1 spell slots)
4. Wizard (Familiar)
5. Bladesinger (Bladesong, level 2 spell slots)
CLASS COMES ONLINE
6. ArT (ASI)
7. ArT (Uncanny Dodge)
8. ArT
9. BS (level 3 spell slots)
10. BS (ASI)
11. BS (level 4 spell slots)
12. BS (extra attack)
13. ArT
14. ArT (ASI)
15. ArT (Magical ambush, level 5 spell slots)
16. BS
17. BS (level 6 spell slots)
18. BS
19. BS (level 7 spell slots)
20. BS

Try listing the features and spells you like but will give up for each class. It's the best way to be sure you are happy with the split.

[RavynsLand]

Try listing the features and spells you like but will give up for each class. It's the best way to be sure you are happy with the split.

That's actually a really good idea, because the more I look the more I find myself wanting things I'm not getting and not getting some things I want. The level 10 Bladesinger ability for instance is useless with Uncanny Dodge. And if I lean into Rogue I can get those two extra ASIs... but I sacrifice spells....

ArT12/BS8 maximizes my possible ASIs, even nabbing the Rogue's extra one, gives me Reliable Talent, higher sneak attack. But I'll only be a level 12 spellcaster, netting me level 6 slots. May well be worth it for the extra rogueliness.

Edit: Yeah that's just a better build. Only sacrificing one slot level for two more ASIs and a lot of other junk. Guess we're leaning Rogue.

[Byke]

Bladesinger is fun...but never give up your 9th level spells !!!!

2 Paladin or 3 Swashbuckler works really well, 1 Cleric for more utility.

[Beelzebubba]

You make a fair case for land druid. They do have some nice options available and the arcane recovery is sweet. Perhaps it is more balanced than it appears on paper.

I'm just an option whore and the amount of stuff Moon can do with so many more shapeshift options... seems more suited to my unorthodoxed playstyle. But for purely arcane-ish power as a support/control/buff/debuff style caster, Land does have the clear edge. But... tiger shape at level 2... mmmmm.... tigerrrrsss..... they're great!

I think Moon Druid is overall a bit stronger, for 2-3 levels early on absurdly so, but overall not by much. The wild shapes are more useful in combat. But you give up a lot of flexibility in spellcasting, and eat a lot of spell slots healing.

[Finger6842]

That's actually a really good idea, because the more I look the more I find myself wanting things I'm not getting and not getting some things I want. The level 10 Bladesinger ability for instance is useless with Uncanny Dodge. And if I lean into Rogue I can get those two extra ASIs... but I sacrifice spells....

ArT12/BS8 maximizes my possible ASIs, even nabbing the Rogue's extra one, gives me Reliable Talent, higher sneak attack. But I'll only be a level 12 spellcaster, netting me level 6 slots. May well be worth it for the extra rogueliness.

Edit: Yeah that's just a better build. Only sacrificing one slot level for two more ASIs and a lot of other junk. Guess we're leaning Rogue.

Yes, a lot of choices. The funny thing is most people don't communicate what they envision for the character with their DM, the only person that can not only help them get there but also fit them into the world.

In the early years you could keep going in every class, it just took forever. Ponder being level 20 in Wizard AND Fighter or Druid AND Barbarian or Bard AND Ranger. Ever dual wield staff of the magi with staff of striking? I wonder what a Raging Titan looks like? How much damage could you do with swift quiver, multiple attacks, and magical secrets while casting meteor swarm? Now double it because this guy has a Simulacrum AND an army of undead. The combinations would be crazy.

[Beelzebubba]

In the early years you could keep going in every class, it just took forever. Ponder being level 20 in Wizard AND Fighter or Druid AND Barbarian or Bard AND Ranger.

Nah, by 'Name' level you'd be building your Wizard tower and attracting a weird bunch of acolytes and fame-whore monsters. Nobody I knew in over 3 decades even got above 15th level without cheating (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MontyHaul) anyway.

Those Magic User spell tables going up to 30 were just Gygax being a design amateur.