[3.5] ranger/scout/factotum

[alucardu]

I started playing d&d 3.5 about 6 months ago coming from a WoW background I kind of min-maxed my character. Because of that I don't have a lot to do outside of combat so I talked to my DM and he allowed me to retcon my character a bit, as long as it fits my character and backstory. The backstory in short. A young elf that lived with his family in a trading outpost. One day a dwarven merchant came rolling through town and he promised my character to enchant a bow that's been in the family for generation. Long story short, the dwarf stole the bow and ripped my character of. No one suspected my young elven character to have a part in this, but the guilt was overwhelming and he set out to get the bow back.

After a few sessions I tried to RP a bit with some NPCs in a dwarven citadel but because of -1 charisma and few skills in that regard I didn't get far. So here is the retcon part. We are almost level 4 and I've done some research into other non basic classes and feats and the Swift Hunter seems really fun to play.

My rolled stats are 10/10/15/15/16/18. We chose 2 flaws to get 5 skillpoints and 1 feat at the beginning of the game. I've decided to play a wood elf instead of a normal elf because it's preferred class is the ranger class.

Str: 12 (10 base + 2 from race)
Dex: 20 (18 base + 2 race)
Con: 8 (10 base - 2 race)
Int: 14 (16 base - 2 race)
Wis: 15
Cha: 15


Level 1: Ranger (1)
Feats: Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot.
Favorite enemy: Animals (background reasons, have been hunting).
Level 2: Scout (1)
Skirmish damage + Trapfinding (although we already have a rogue in the group).
Level 3: Factotum (1)
Feat: Travel devotion. For 1 minute I can move for free so I can move at least 10ft and use Rapid Shot so I get skirmish bonus on both attack rolls.
Inspiration. Cunning Insight is nifty to have, adding my int modifier (2) to a attack/damage/saving roll.
The main reason I took this dip is for the skills. For RP I really like to have bluff, diplomacy, disguise, forgery, intimidate etc.
Level 4: Ranger (2)
Combat style: Archery.
Feat: free Rapid shot.
Level 5: Scout (2)
Battle fortitude +1 on initiative and fortitude saves, both are pretty good to have.
Level 6 Scout (3)
10ft extra/free movement, not great but good to have.
+1 to ac when moving at least 10ft.
Skirmish 2d6 +1AC (since I can add my ranger level to my scout)
Feat: Swift hunter
This level opens up the swift hunter feat so I can add my scout levels to my ranger levels which allows me to have a favorite enemy (undead) and give it a bonus +2.
I can also add my ranger levels to my scout for skirmishing damage and bonus to my AC.
And now I can use my skirmish damage on undead.
Level 7 Ranger(3)
Feat: Endurance, not great but not much else going on at this level.
Level 8 Ranger(4)
Animal Companion (not sure what animal I want. I was thinking something that flies because it makes scouting easier).
A level 1 spell: Speak with animals. I chose this for RP reasons, entangle looks good too. But since I want to play a bit of a detective and RP more, I thought this would be a good/fun pick.
Since I can add my ranger level to my scout level for skirmish I get +2d6 +2AC


This is what I came up with (of course from reading other swift hunter guides) and it looks like a good fit.

Feats I want/could get in the future:


Improved Skirmish. More attack dice and AC bonus only for traveling 10ft extra? Looks good.
Improved Rapid Shot. A feat to remove the -2 from rapid shot, looks good to me. But improved Skirmish looks a lot better (right?)
I get Manyshot from leveling the ranger but it's not great, the penalties really add up. Attacking with 4 hit dice is really cool but a -2, -2, -4, -6, -8 penalty is a lot.
Greater Manyshot is cool because I can add the skirmish dice to each arrow shot but it doesn't do much about "fixing" the penalties on manyshot.


What I heard is that the basic ranger class doesn't really scale well after a few levels. The animal companion isn't great and the damage done by the ranger is poor compared to other classes like a wizard or barbarian. Having skirmish in certain situation or just rapid shot if moving isn't possible or unwanted looks great and competitive.

But I wouldn't mind some feedback on my ideas.

[Grod_The_Giant]

The base Ranger isn't terrible-- it's got skills, a bit of magic for utility, a few combat feats to make your life easier... the only thing it really lacks is damage, and Swift Hunter solves that problem neatly enough. That said, you can throw in a few ACFs to continue to improve things. My favorite is probably Urban Companion, from the Cityscape Web Enhancement. You get to trade your crappy animal companion for a souped-up familiar-- it gets 3/4 hit points instead of 1/2, and there's no penalty if it dies. I'm also a fan of Arcane Hunter (Complete Mage; take Favored Enemy (anyone with arcane spells or SLAs) and Spiritual Connection (Complete Champion; trade Wild Empathy for Speak With Plants/Speak With Animals 3/day).

As for your specific build... I might take Factotum at 1st, just to get the most benefit out of the expanded class skills. Ooor... maybe, just maybe... take a Cloistered Cleric dip instead. Grab the Travel and Dragon Domains (from the SpC), along with the free Knowledge domain*. Trade the Travel Domain for Travel Devotion, freeing up a feat, which you can spend on City Slicker (Races of Destiny). The net result is the same level/feat spending, the same skill points, and Bluff, Diplomacy, Disguise, Forgery, and Intimidate as class skills... plus you get 3+Cha Turn attempts to power Knowledge Devotion, can grab Knowledge Devotion for free as well, and get better scroll/wand access.

Also, I highly recommend swapping your Con and Wis scores. It'll be sad having only 10 Wis, but you can boost that with items by the time Ranger spellcasting comes online; with only 8 Con, you will die before that becomes relevant. Don't forget, you have to be close to Skirmish.


*"Cloistered" can represent holing up in the library at the trading post, but is more of a "why not, it costs nothing" than anything else; Dragon and Travel are both offered by Io (a neutral god of all dragons) and Aasterinian, his messenger and "cheeky deity who enjoys learning through play, invention, and pleasure." (Both described in the Draconomicon). The latter seems more fitting; she's described as having small shrines for travelers everywhere, so there might well have been one around a trade outpost. Or go with the "Cleric of a cause" stuff. Another possible reason to take the lower Wis; it means that you don't have to explain the casting, just the domain benefits.

[DEMON]

Grod mostly got you covered, so I'll just add to what he already said.

Swapping CON for CHA would be a better way to go about it, from optimization standpoint. I'd also swap STR for WIS - 12 WIS is enough for your spellcasting needs (you'll eventually boost it with items) and higher STR helps with damage.

Ranger has a ton of ACFs, and also substitution levels you might want to look at:
The Animal Companion can be traded for Distracting Attack (ranged flanking), Shooting Star sub level (+2 caster level and an extra spell of each level), Urban Companion (a beefed up familiar) or an Elven Hound (magical beast). My personal favorite is the Shooting Star, although Urban Companion is also good.

Elf Ranger substitution level 1 will give you 8 more skill points at the cost of 2 HP and a +3 boost to some of your favored enemies, instead of a +2. It also applies to different skills, which I find more useful.

I would also skip Factotum, it's probably going to give you a multiclass penalty and the skills you listed are... well, crap. Disguise can be simulated with a cheap magic item (hat of disguise) and forgery will most likely come up very rarely. Social skills are nice, of course, but you'll have a hard time keeping them reasonable high at their CC cost for most levels.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Able Learner (Races of Destiny) would certainly be worth looking into-- it'll keep cross-class ranks low, and let you dabble in skills without needing them as class skills.

[DEMON]

Able Learner (Races of Destiny) would certainly be worth looking into-- it'll keep cross-class ranks low, and let you dabble in skills without needing them as class skills.

But he's an Elf - he doesn't qualify.

[Gildedragon]

So I personally would recommend skipping Scout for factotum
You'd be giving up skirmish damage and 10' speed boost for Int to damage, saves, AC, and initiative; plus some spells and skill boosting.

[Grod_The_Giant]

But he's an Elf - he doesn't qualify.
Whoops, you're correct.


So I personally would recommend skipping Scout for factotum
You'd be giving up skirmish damage and 10' speed boost for Int to damage, saves, AC, and initiative; plus some spells and skill boosting.
Blech, no thanks. Factotum offers very little to the Ranger, and has some serious problems of its own vis-a-vis keeping up in combat.

[alucardu]

The base Ranger isn't terrible-- it's got skills, a bit of magic for utility, a few combat feats to make your life easier... the only thing it really lacks is damage, and Swift Hunter solves that problem neatly enough.


That's what I said ;).



That said, you can throw in a few ACFs to continue to improve things. My favorite is probably Urban Companion, from the Cityscape Web Enhancement. You get to trade your crappy animal companion for a souped-up familiar-- it gets 3/4 hit points instead of 1/2, and there's no penalty if it dies. I'm also a fan of Arcane Hunter (Complete Mage; take Favored Enemy (anyone with arcane spells or SLAs) and Spiritual Connection (Complete Champion; trade Wild Empathy for Speak With Plants/Speak With Animals 3/day).


My DM allowed me to buff my Animal Companion a bit if I figured out a good way to do it. Would you say that buffing the HP and removing the exp penalty would be good enough to buff the ranger animal companion? If not, do you have any advice?



As for your specific build... I might take Factotum at 1st, just to get the most benefit out of the expanded class skills.

My DM allowed me to get the able learner feat since Elfs are Human like ;).



Ooor... maybe, just maybe... take a Cloistered Cleric dip instead. Grab the Travel and Dragon Domains (from the SpC), along with the free Knowledge domain*. Trade the Travel Domain for Travel Devotion, freeing up a feat, which you can spend on City Slicker (Races of Destiny). The net result is the same level/feat spending, the same skill points, and Bluff, Diplomacy, Disguise, Forgery, and Intimidate as class skills... plus you get 3+Cha Turn attempts to power Knowledge Devotion, can grab Knowledge Devotion for free as well, and get better scroll/wand access.


Like you said below I can fit this into my character but it looks a bit cheesy. I don't think the DM and the other players would like this very much, they are all a bit laid back and relative new (as am I). I don't want to come in big **** swinging.



Also, I highly recommend swapping your Con and Wis scores. It'll be sad having only 10 Wis, but you can boost that with items by the time Ranger spellcasting comes online; with only 8 Con, you will die before that becomes relevant. Don't forget, you have to be close to Skirmish.


On level 8 I do get the second attribute for Con so I remove the negative modifier. Also I rolled quite good with the hit die. I'm on 8/8/6/7 hp (-1 though). Endurance (ranger feat) also helps with it a bit.



*"Cloistered" can represent holing up in the library at the trading post, but is more of a "why not, it costs nothing" than anything else; Dragon and Travel are both offered by Io (a neutral god of all dragons) and Aasterinian, his messenger and "cheeky deity who enjoys learning through play, invention, and pleasure." (Both described in the Draconomicon). The latter seems more fitting; she's described as having small shrines for travelers everywhere, so there might well have been one around a trade outpost. Or go with the "Cleric of a cause" stuff. Another possible reason to take the lower Wis; it means that you don't have to explain the casting, just the domain benefits.

Thanks for the tips!


Grod mostly got you covered, so I'll just add to what he already said.

Swapping CON for CHA would be a better way to go about it, from optimization standpoint. I'd also swap STR for WIS - 12 WIS is enough for your spellcasting needs (you'll eventually boost it with items) and higher STR helps with damage.


The actual strength rating is 10, I add 2 from my class bonus. Otherwise I would have put 12 in Wis and 15 in Con/Str :).



Ranger has a ton of ACFs, and also substitution levels you might want to look at:
The Animal Companion can be traded for Distracting Attack (ranged flanking), Shooting Star sub level (+2 caster level and an extra spell of each level), Urban Companion (a beefed up familiar) or an Elven Hound (magical beast). My personal favorite is the Shooting Star, although Urban Companion is also good.


Thanks, I'll look into it.



Elf Ranger substitution level 1 will give you 8 more skill points at the cost of 2 HP and a +3 boost to some of your favored enemies, instead of a +2. It also applies to different skills, which I find more useful.


What do you mean by Elf Ranger substitution level 1?



I would also skip Factotum, it's probably going to give you a multiclass penalty and the skills you listed are... well, crap. Disguise can be simulated with a cheap magic item (hat of disguise) and forgery will most likely come up very rarely. Social skills are nice, of course, but you'll have a hard time keeping them reasonable high at their CC cost for most levels.

In the world of RP you can use forgery as much as you want of course. We are running a fairly political campaign. I agree it doesn't work when you are working through a goblin mine but in a dwarven citadel where we are trying to find some people and a vampire that's high up the political chain it can be used. Right? Disguise might not be great, but looks like a lot of fun. The multiclass penalty might be true though, going to check it out.


So I personally would recommend skipping Scout for factotum
You'd be giving up skirmish damage and 10' speed boost for Int to damage, saves, AC, and initiative; plus some spells and skill boosting.

Yea going factotum is a valid choise, it doesn't scale on the damage as well as the scout but it does add more skill points and "stuff" but it also doesn't look like a lot of fun. Adding the skirmish dice, figuring out where to move, bust out that travel devotion to do a few rounds of rapid shot with skirmish dice when the group is in a pinch of when my (young and arrogant) elf wants to show off looks like fun as well. And I do get to add some inspiration to those attacks :).

Edit
Well I don't need to factotum class if I can get able learner from level 1 since I can just use my ranger/scout skill points for all the "detective" kind of things I want to do.

Edit II
Oh but then I can only add 3 points into the skill. So the factotum fixes that. Doh

[DEMON]

What do you mean by Elf Ranger substitution level 1?

Races of the Wild, p 155-156. It's similar to ACFs.

[Grod_The_Giant]

My DM allowed me to buff my Animal Companion a bit if I figured out a good way to do it. Would you say that buffing the HP and removing the exp penalty would be good enough to buff the ranger animal companion? If not, do you have any advice?
Removing the level penalty relative to the Druid helps a lot. If you do that and take the Natural Bond feat (Complete Adventurer), you're basically up to full-strength. Still not as good as the Druid's, since you can't share spells, but good enough to be a beatstick.


My DM allowed me to get the able learner feat since Elfs are Human like ;).
Sweet. Cross-class ranks costing more is a bad idea anyway.


Like you said below I can fit this into my character but it looks a bit cheesy. I don't think the DM and the other players would like this very much, they are all a bit laid back and relative new (as am I). I don't want to come in big **** swinging.
Fair, I suppose. I mainly suggest it because it gets you repeated Travel Devotion uses. There are other ways to pick up Turn Undead, tho. Or other ways to activate Skirmish. (Mounted Combat is great for Scout-archers if your DM will overrule the errata that says it doesn't work, for instance, and it goes great with an animal companion). Check out my handbook here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?473666-New-Scout-Handbook)for more ideas.


On level 8 I do get the second attribute for Con so I remove the negative modifier. Also I rolled quite good with the hit die. I'm on 8/8/6/7 hp (-1 though). Endurance (ranger feat) also helps with it a bit.
Still, highly not-recommended.


What do you mean by Elf Ranger substitution level 1?
It's an alternate class feature type thingie from Races of the Wild-- elves can get special benefits at certain Ranger levels. If you take them, you get a d6 HD, 8+Int skill points, and altered class features.


Yea going factotum is a valid choise, it doesn't scale on the damage as well as the scout but it does add more skill points and "stuff" but it also doesn't look like a lot of fun. Adding the skirmish dice, figuring out where to move, bust out that travel devotion to do a few rounds of rapid shot with skirmish dice when the group is in a pinch of when my (young and arrogant) elf wants to show off looks like fun as well. And I do get to add some inspiration to those attacks :).
Honestly, I might recommend Rogue or something. It'll hit a lot of the same skills you care about, and a little Sneak Attack ain't bad. It also reduces the need for Int a bit.


Edit
Well I don't need to factotum class if I can get able learner from level 1 since I can just use my ranger/scout skill points for all the "detective" kind of things I want to do.

Edit II
Oh but then I can only add 3 points into the skill. So the factotum fixes that. Doh
Yeah, Ranger/Scout is going to have a hard time being a socialite. City Slicker, as I mentioned, is a feat that'll give you Disguise, Forgery, Gather Information, and Knowledge (local), and the Urban Ranger ACF (Unearthed Arcana) gives you Gather Information, Knowledge (local), and Sense Motive, but I'm having a hard time finding a good non-Domain/multiclass way to get Bluff and Diplomacy.

Other ACFs that might be useful to you, though, include

Rival Organization (Cityscape Web Enhancement) lets you take an organization as a favored enemy and grants a bonus to social skills when making checks related to it
Skilled City Dweller (same) is a sort of universal ACF that lets you trade Survival for Sense Motive (and other such gifts)
Voice of the City (same) replaces Wild Empathy with a limited ability to communicate across language barriers.

[Zombulian]

The base Ranger isn't terrible-- it's got skills, a bit of magic for utility, a few combat feats to make your life easier... the only thing it really lacks is damage, and Swift Hunter solves that problem neatly enough. That said, you can throw in a few ACFs to continue to improve things. My favorite is probably Urban Companion, from the Cityscape Web Enhancement. You get to trade your crappy animal companion for a souped-up familiar-- it gets 3/4 hit points instead of 1/2, and there's no penalty if it dies. I'm also a fan of Arcane Hunter (Complete Mage; take Favored Enemy (anyone with arcane spells or SLAs) and Spiritual Connection (Complete Champion; trade Wild Empathy for Speak With Plants/Speak With Animals 3/day).

As for your specific build... I might take Factotum at 1st, just to get the most benefit out of the expanded class skills. Ooor... maybe, just maybe... take a Cloistered Cleric dip instead. Grab the Travel and Dragon Domains (from the SpC), along with the free Knowledge domain*. Trade the Travel Domain for Travel Devotion, freeing up a feat, which you can spend on City Slicker (Races of Destiny). The net result is the same level/feat spending, the same skill points, and Bluff, Diplomacy, Disguise, Forgery, and Intimidate as class skills... plus you get 3+Cha Turn attempts to power Knowledge Devotion, can grab Knowledge Devotion for free as well, and get better scroll/wand access.

Also, I highly recommend swapping your Con and Wis scores. It'll be sad having only 10 Wis, but you can boost that with items by the time Ranger spellcasting comes online; with only 8 Con, you will die before that becomes relevant. Don't forget, you have to be close to Skirmish.


*"Cloistered" can represent holing up in the library at the trading post, but is more of a "why not, it costs nothing" than anything else; Dragon and Travel are both offered by Io (a neutral god of all dragons) and Aasterinian, his messenger and "cheeky deity who enjoys learning through play, invention, and pleasure." (Both described in the Draconomicon). The latter seems more fitting; she's described as having small shrines for travelers everywhere, so there might well have been one around a trade outpost. Or go with the "Cleric of a cause" stuff. Another possible reason to take the lower Wis; it means that you don't have to explain the casting, just the domain benefits.

Small nitpick but for clarity I'd like to point out that Grod meant turning attempts to power *Travel* Devotion. Knowledge Devotion is free to use.

I'd also like to add that I recommend dropping Factotum as well. It functions much better as a dip with a minimum of 3 levels, or a full splash with 8. Additionally, the heavy reliance upon Int doesn't mesh too well with a Scout/Ranger, so there's not much to be gained anyway.

[Grod_The_Giant]

A mix of Factotum 3+/Swashbuckler 3 works decently, though. Free Weapon Finesse and constant Int-to-damage are neat. Pair with something like an Elven Courtblade or a Feycrafted Falchion and Power Attack, and you can keep up a passable offense. Can get to be a lot of feats, though.

[DEMON]

A mix of Factotum 3+/Swashbuckler 3 works decently, though. Free Weapon Finesse and constant Int-to-damage are neat. Pair with something like an Elven Courtblade or a Feycrafted Falchion and Power Attack, and you can keep up a passable offense. Can get to be a lot of feats, though.

This would be quite a deviation from the original build, since you're now a Dex/Int focused melee build and might as well follow through with a Daring Outlaw build.

But I also add my vote to either removal of the Factotum from the build, or adding more Factotum levels to it (and combining with other Int-focused classes), as right now we're looking at a rather strange hybrid dipping Factotum for social skills, but going for "socially awkward" wilderness classes for the rest of their career and also probably infringing multiclass penalties.

[alucardu]

I talked to the DM and although he didn't dislike Factotum, he didn't really like it in combination with Able Learner (since I'm not a human and all). We got to the core which is me having some different skills besides being nature boy.

Since there's a lot of overlap in skills between the Ranger and Scout we decided to remove some of those and add Bluff, Gather Information, Diplomacy and Sleight of Hand to my character. So now I can just level Ranger/Scout but can still level the skills I want.

Also we agreed to change from a normal Elf to a Wood Elf, he needed some convincing since he thought Wood Elves were really reclusive and kind of aggressive towards dwarves. But I got some lore and it was okay. My backstory is that my father was a Wood Elf who fell in love with a ... normal elf who was a trader in a outpost. That's were I was born but I had my fathers Wood Elf genes. A +2 str, +2 dex, -2 int, -2 cons modifier. This evens out my rolls a bit too. So I'm a happy little Ranger/Scout with a custom Private Investigator feat :)