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View Full Version : D&D 3.x Other Butcher's Madness [3.5 ToB Discipline, PEACH, KD:M related]



Ziaphas
2017-07-16, 07:43 PM
So this is a discipline I plan on using for the penultimate boss fight of a 6-15ish campaign thats been running for almost 1.5 years. I'm realizing, though, that it might not be as overwhelmingly strong as I thought, and might be suitable for PCs to pick up - I wouldn't be surprised if, after seeing it in action, some of my players wanted to do so.
So if people wouldn't mind PEACHing it, I'd appreciate it for 2 goals:

Does this look like fun for a boss to heavily utilize, even if it is slightly OP?
Is this appropriate for a PC to use, or what small changes could be made to make it ok for a PC to use?


Mechanical Lore:
Butcher’s Madness maneuvers focus on brutal attacks that cause bleeding wounds. The furious slashes and full-body defensive techniques incorporated into many Butcher’s Madness maneuvers are in fact designed to draw forth the inner hunger and hatred of the initiate. The Butcher’s Madness associated weapons are the dagger, falchion, handaxe, greataxe, and scythe. Its key skill is Craft (butchering), providing an initiate with the tools to disassemble individuals like so much meat.
This discipline is available only to those who take the Maddening Hunger feat.

Maddening Hunger
[Vile]
You have hacked and hewn through so many lives that you see flesh as nothing more than meat, and the life behind it a delicious prize.
Prerequisites: XXX.
Benefit: Whenever you confirm a critical hit with one of the Butcher’s Madness favored weapons, the target also takes bleeding damage equal to your weapon’s critical multiplier. This bleeding continues until either the creature receives magical healing equal or greater than the amount of bleeding it is taking each turn, or it receives a successful Heal check (DC 10 + ½ character level + your Str modifier) as a standard action. If the creature is unaffected by the critical hit (for example, by being Undead or successfully negating the critical damage through the Fortification ability), you can still cause it to begin bleeding. However, your psyche is fractured by your acceptance of these ideals and when you acquire this feat, your Wisdom score is immediately reduced by 2 points.
Special: If you are a martial adept, you can now learn Butcher’s Madness maneuvers but must give up one of your original disciplines. In addition, when you take this feat you may immediately exchange some of your maneuvers known for maneuvers of the Butcher’s Madness discipline. You may exchange up to one maneuver of each level, and the new maneuvers you learn must be of the same level as the exchanged maneuvers, unlike normal.


MANEUVER AND STANCE LIST
Many maneuvers from the Butcher’s Madness discipline cause a creature to begin bleeding. In all cases, bleeding deals damage at the end of the creature’s turn, stacks with all other sources of bleeding (including from the same maneuver), and continues until either the creature receives magical healing equal or greater than the amount of bleeding it is taking each turn, or it receives a successful Heal check (DC 10 + ½ initiator level + your Str modifier) as a standard action.
In many cases, the amount of bleeding damage caused by the maneuver is determined by making a Craft (butchering) check; the amount of bleeding damage is based on the following table:


Check Result
Bleeding Damage


15 or below
1


16-25
2


26-30
3


31-35
4


36+
5




First Level:
Butcher’s Hunger: Stance – Gain blindsense for bleeding creatures.
Charging Hound: Strike – Charging trip attempt causes bleeding damage, ignores attacks of opportunity.
Scream of Madness: Counter – After failing a Will save, punish source with Wisdom damage and knock it prone.
Second Level:
Bloody Hew: Strike – Deal +2d6 damage, plus bleeding damage based on Craft (butchering) check.
Butcher’s Frenzy: Boost – Defeat foe, gain Haste but start bleeding.
Third Level:
Blinding Riposte: Counter – Counter foe's attack with swift attack that can blind.
Butcher’s Grace: Boost – Damage yourself with each attack to deal bonus damage and bleed your target and other nearby enemies.
Impervious Guard: Stance – Use your armor to damage attacking weapons and creatures.
Fourth Level:
Bloody Hack: Strike – Deal +4d6 damage, plus bleeding damage based on Craft (butchering) check.
Lifelight Hunger: Teleport 50 ft. to bleeding enemy as a move action.
Roar of Fury: Boost – After successful melee attack, maddening roar sickens nearby enemies and complicates healing spells used on them.
Fifth Level:
Armored Deflection: Counter – Negate critical hit/precision damage from an attack, or reduce its total damage to 10 damage.
Butcher’s Hands: Stance – Cause bleeding damage to enemies you strike twice.
Crimson Storm: Strike – Make touch attacks with cumulative attack penalty that deal no damage but cause bleeding equal to total number of hits.
Sixth Level:
Bloody Carve: Strike – Deal +6d6 damage, plus bleeding damage based on Craft (butchering) check.
Dread Feast: Boost – Heal a small amount, plus 1d6 hit points for each nearby bleeding creature.
Slaughtering Spree: Boost - Blood from attacked creature entangles it and nearby bleeding enemies.
Seventh Level:
Furious Riposte: Counter – Before a foe completes its attack, strike it to knock it flying away.
Gutting Blow: Strike – Deal 1d6 bonus damage per point of bleeding damage the victim is suffering.
Eighth Level:
Embrace the Hunger: Stance – Drain life from bleeding foes you attack, and gain additional bonuses when your hit points are low.
Feast of Lifelight: Strike – Attack dooms creature for duration based on Craft (butchering) check.
Ninth Level:
Bloody Expulsion: Strike – Attack teleports you through victim's blood to erupt out of another creature.


Butcher's Hunger
Butcher's Madness (Stance)
Level: Crusader 1, Swordsage 1, Warblade 1
Prerequisite: One Butcher's Madness maneuver
Initiation Action: 1 swift action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: Stance
The presence of bleeding wounds is a lure you can't miss and couldn't possibly ignore.
While you are in this stance, you gain blindsense out to 30 feet, but only for creatures currently suffering bleeding damage.

Charging Hound
Butcher's Madness (Strike)
Level: Crusader 1, Swordsage 1, Warblade 1
Initiation Action: 1 full-round action
Range: Melee attack
Target: One creature
You charge at your foe with a vicious slash, capitalizing on his vulnerability if he falls.
As part of this maneuver, you charge an opponent. If your charge attack hits, you don't deal any damage but instead make a trip attempt. Neither the movement nor the trip attempt provokes attacks of opportunity, and your opponent cannot try to trip you if you lose the opposed check. You cannot choose to use your Dexterity modifier for this trip attempt, but gain a +2 bonus on the ability check. Otherwise resolve the trip attempt normally. If you win the opposed check, the opponent takes 1d4 bleeding damage.

Scream of Madness
Butcher's Madness (Counter)
Level: Crusader 1, Swordsage 1, Warblade 1
Initiation Action: 1 immediate action
Range: Personal
Target: One creature
Saving Throw: Fortitude partial
Invasions of your mind find only hunger and madness.
With this counter, your mind lashes out against someone who overcomes your mental defenses. You can use this maneuver whenever you fail a Will save against a mind-affecting effect that originated from a creature, even if the result of the failed Will save would normally prevent you from being able to initiate a maneuver. The creature that created the effect is sickened for 1d4 rounds and and falls prone, revolted and overcome by the madness of your mind. A successful Fortitude save (DC 11 + your Str modifier) negates falling prone.


Bloody Hew
Butcher's Madness (Strike)
Level: Crusader 2, Swordsage 2, Warblade 2
Initiation Action: 1 standard action
Range: Melee attack
Target: One creature
You slash at your opponent with a brutal attack, leaving a bleeding wound.
As part of this maneuver, you make a single melee attack. If this attack hits, it deals an extra 2d6 points of damage and you make a Craft (butchering) check. You gain a +1 bonus on this check for every 5 points of damage this attack deals, and your target takes bleeding damage based on the Craft (butchering) result.

Butcher's Frenzy
Butcher's Madness (Boost)
Level: Crusader 2, Swordsage 2, Warblade 2
Prerequisite: 1 Butcher's Madness maneuver
Initiation Action: 1 swift action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: See text
You lose yourself in the ecstasy of spraying blood and a crumbling opponent, ignoring that small wounds you've suffered tear open.
If you reduce a creature to -1 or fewer hit points during your turn, you can initiate this maneuver. You gain the benefit of a Haste spell (caster level equals your initiator level), except that its duration is 1d4 rounds. You also suffer 1 bleeding damage.
This maneuver is a supernatural ability.


Blinding Riposte
Butcher's Madness (Counter) [Light]
Level: Crusader 3, Swordsage 3, Warblade 3
Initiation Action: 1 immediate action
Range: Personal
Target: One creature
Saving Throw: Reflex negates
As your foe dares to spill your blood, you counterattack with a swift and vicious blow to their head that showers their face in blood.
When a creature successfully strikes you with a melee attack that deals at least 1 point of damage to you, you can then make an immediate melee attack against that opponent. You can't use this maneuver if you are denied your Dexterity bonus to AC against your attacker.
If the attack hits, the target takes melee damage normally and must succeed on a Reflex save (DC 13 + your Str modifier) or be blinded for 1 round.
This maneuver is a supernatural ability.

Butcher's Grace
Butcher's Madness (Boost)
Level: Crusader 3, Swordsage 3, Warblade 3
Prerequisite: One Butcher's Madness maneuver
Initiation Action: 1 swift action
Range: Melee attack
Target: One or more creatures you threaten
Duration: 1 round
You attack with a crazed abandon, your attacks swinging so fast that you strain yourself, but so wide that they make small cuts on everyone around you. Your skill allows you to avoid counterattack, but your greatest enemy is your own hunger. You must initiate this maneuver before making any attacks in the current round. Each time you strike a creature with a melee attack until the start of your next turn, you take 1d6 points of damage, but deal 1d6 damage, plus 1 bleeding damage, to your target and all other creatures you threaten.

Impervious Guard
Butcher's Madness (Stance)
Level: Crusader 3, Swordsage 3, Warblade 3
Initiation Action: 1 swift action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: Stance
Saving Throw: Reflex negates; see text
As you ready yourself for each new foray of combat, you position your heavy armor to not merely blunt attacks, but also strike the incoming weapons at the most damaging location.
As long as you are wearing metal armor, the melee attacks that attempt to hit you (even if the attack misses, but only if it misses because of failing to overcome your AC) take damage equal to 1d8 + your Str modifier, and the weapon's hardness does not reduce this damage. If the weapon is an unarmed attack, touch attack, or natural weapon, this damage is dealt to its wielder. In either case, the wielder may attempt a Reflex save (DC 13 + your Str modifier) to avoid taking this damage.
This stance only has a chance to damage the weapon used in the first attack (if wearing light armor), first two attacks (if wearing medium armor), or first three attacks (if wearing heavy armor) that qualify each round.


Bloody Hack
Butcher's Madness (Strike)
Level: Crusader 4, Swordsage 4, Warblade 4
Prerequisite: Two Butcher's Madness maneuvers
Initiation Action: 1 standard action
Range: Melee attack
Target: One creature
You tear into your opponent with a vicious attack, leaving a badly bleeding wound.
As part of this maneuver, you make a single melee attack. If this attack hits, it deals an extra 4d6 points of damage and you make a Craft (butchering) check. You gain a +2 bonus on this check for every 5 points of damage this attack deals, and your target takes bleeding damage based on the Craft (butchering) result.

Lifelight Hunger
Butcher's Madness [Teleportation]
Level: Crusader 4, Swordsage 4, Warblade 4
Prerequisite: Two Butcher's Madness maneuvers
Initiation Action: 1 move action
Range: 50 ft.
Target: One creature
You breath deep the scent of blood and fear, allowing your body to follow your lust for the spilling blood and waiting life energy.
You instantly appear in a square adjacent to a creature that is within range and suffering at least 5 bleeding damage. If you cannot move adjacent to the target, this maneuver fails to function but is still considered used.

Roar of Fury
Butcher's Madness (Boost) [Fear, Mind-Affecting]
Level: Crusader 4, Swordsage 4, Warblade 4
Initiation Action: 1 swift action
Range: 30 ft.
Area: 30-ft-radius burst centered on you
Duration: 1 minute
Saving Throw: Will partial
You roar with fury and madness, inviting others to experience your unending hunger.
If you successfully damage a creature with a melee attack during your turn, you can initiate this maneuver. You roar with such maddening fury that all enemies within a 30-foot radius are sickened for 1 minute. For the duration, all Conjuration (healing) spells cast on an affected enemy must succeed on a caster level check (DC 14 + your Str modifier), or the spell has no effect. A successful Will save (DC 14 + your Str modifier) reduces the duration of both effects to 1 round.

Armored Deflection
Butcher's Madness (Counter)
Level: Crusader 5, Swordsage 5, Warblade 5
Initiation Action: 1 immediate action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: Instantaneous
You imbue your armor with a furious refusal to suffer harm, shrugging off an incredible blow.
As long as you are wearing metal armor, you can use this maneuver whenever a creature successfully damages you with an attack to reduce the damage in one of two ways:
If the attack is a critical hit or would deal precision damage, this maneuver negates the extra damage caused by the critical hit or precision damage.
If the attack is not a critical hit nor would deal precision damage, you reduce the damage you take to 10 damage (unless it would deal less than 10 damage).

Butcher's Hands
Butcher's Madness (Stance)
Level: Crusader 5, Swordsage 5, Warblade 5
Initiation Action: 1 swift action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: Stance
As you cut into your foes, you twist your blades, savoring the resulting sprays of blood.
If you are in this stance and strike an opponent multiple times during your turn, you also cause bleeding damage. Determine the bleeding damage dealt immediately after you make your last attack for your turn by making a Craft (butchering) check. You gain a +2 bonus on this check for each of your attacks that struck the creature, which takes bleeding damage based on the Craft (butchering) result.
If you strike multiple opponents each multiple times during your turn, you make a Craft (butchering) check to determine bleeding damage against each of them. You gain a bonus on each check based on the number of attacks that hit that particular creature, not the number of successful attacks you made.

Crimson Storm
Butcher's Madness (Strike)
Level: Crusader 5, Swordsage 5, Warblade 5
Prerequisite: Two Butcher's Madness maneuvers
Initiation Action: 1 full-round action
Range: Melee attack
Target: One creature
In a spray of blood and flash of steel, you unleash a barrage of swift attacks that seem to do nothing, until the blood starts to flow.
You lash at an opponent, attempting to slit open small bleeding wounds without landing a full blow. If your attack hits, you repeat the same attack again and again at nearly superhuman speed, allowing you to score multiple bleeding cuts without ever committing to a single strike. Unfortunately, the speed required to make these nimble slices is disrupted as soon as an attack misses.
As part of this maneuver, you make a single melee touch attack against an opponent. If that attack hits, it deals no damage, but you can then make another attack against that foe with a -4 penalty on your attack roll. If that attack hits, you can make another attack against that opponent with a -8 penalty. You continue to make additional attacks, each one with an additional -4 penalty, until you miss. You must direct all these attacks at a single foe.
Once you have stopped attacking, your opponent takes 1 bleeding damage for every successful touch attack you landed.

Bloody Carve
Butcher's Madness (Strike)
Level: Crusader 6, Swordsage 6, Warblade 6
Prerequisite: Three Butcher's Madness maneuvers
Initiation Action: 1 standard action
Range: Melee attack
Target: One creature
You tear into your opponent with a vicious attack, leaving a badly bleeding wound.
As part of this maneuver, you make a single melee attack. If this attack hits, it deals an extra 6d6 points of damage and you make a Craft (butchering) check. You gain a +3 bonus on this check for every 5 points of damage this attack deals, and your target takes bleeding damage based on the Craft (butchering) result.

Dread Feast
Butcher's Madness (Boost)
Level: Crusader 6, Swordsage 6, Warblade 6
Prerequisite: Two Butcher's Madness maneuvers
Initiation Action: 1 swift action
Range: 60 ft
Area: 60-ft-radius burst centered on you
Duration: Instantaneous
Your ki ignores distance, feeding on the bleeding wounds of all nearby creatures.
If you have half or fewer of your full normal hit points remaining, you can initiate this maneuver to heal hit points equal to 3 + your Str modifier, plus an additional 1d6 hit points for every creature with bleeding damage within range (including yourself), to a maximum number of dice equal to your initiator level.

Slaughtering Spree
Butcher's Madness (Boost)
Level: Crusader 6, Swordsage 6, Warblade 6
Initiation Action: 1 swift action
Range: Melee attack
Target: One or more creatures
Duration: See text
Saving Throw: Reflex partial
You slice open your victim, then beckon with a welcoming expression - abruptly, the creature's face twists from confusion and pain to abject horror, its blood writhing and snaring its limbs.
After you successfully make a melee attack on your turn that damages a creature, you can initiate this maneuver to make a Craft (butchering) check. You gain a bonus on this check equal to the creature's bleeding damage. The damaged creature becomes Entangled for a number of rounds based on the check result, as the blood you spill from its body gushes out and becomes viscous.


Check Result
Duration


15 or below
1


16-25
2


26-30
3


31-35
4


36+
5


The call to the victim's blood also affects all enemies within 10 feet of it that have bleeding damage, entangling each for the same duration as the original creature.
Every affected creature can reduce the entangling duration to 1 round with a successful Reflex save (DC 16 + your Str modifier).
This maneuver is a supernatural ability.

Furious Riposte
Butcher's Madness (Counter)
Level: Crusader 7, Swordsage 7, Warblade 7
Initiation Action: 1 immediate action
Range: Personal
Target: One creature
Saving Throw: Reflex negates
As a foe closes in to strike, you surprise it with an unexpected attack that sends it flying.
When an enemy makes a melee attack against you, you can initiate this counter to first make an immediate melee attack against that opponent, possibly dealing it a blow that prevents it from being able to successfully make its attack. You can't use this maneuver if you are denied your Dexterity bonus to AC against your attacker.
As part of this maneuver, you make a single melee attack against the creature that is attempting to make a melee attack against you. If this attack hits, the target takes melee damage normally and must succeed on a Reflex save (DC 17 + your Str modifier) or be pushed 5 feet, plus another 5 feet for every 5 points of damage it took, in a direction of your choice, where it falls prone. You can only push the opponent in a straight line, and cannot move it closer to you than the square it started in. If an obstacle prevents the completion of the opponent's move, the opponent and the obstacle each take bludgeoning damage equal to 1d6 + your Str modifier, and the opponent stops and falls prone in the space adjacent to the obstacle. The movement caused by this maneuver does not provoke attacks of opportunity.

Gutting Blow
Butcher's Madness (Strike)
Level: Crusader 7, Swordsage 7, Warblade 7
Initiation Action: 1 standard action
Range: Melee attack
Target: One creature
As your brutal attack cuts into your foe, every bleeding wound it is suffering abruptly gushes and tears open further.
As part of this maneuver, you make a melee attack against a creature. This attack deals an extra 1d6 points of damage for every point of bleeding damage the creature is suffering.


Embrace the Hunger
Butcher's Madness (Stance)
Level: Crusader 8, Swordsage 8, Warblade 8
Initiation Action: 1 swift action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: Stance
You consume your foes' lifelight as you cut them to pieces, and draw on the power of your own as you begin to falter.
While in this stance, all of your melee attacks against creatures with bleeding damage deal an additional 1d6 points of damage, and you heal an equal amount. If your hit points are equal to or less than one-half your full normal hit points, you gain a +2 luck bonus on attack rolls, ability checks, saving throws, and skill checks. If your hit points are equal to or less than one-quarter your full normal hit points, the luck bonus and healing from this stance are doubled.

Feast of Lifelight
Butcher's Madness (Boost) [Curse, Mind-Affecting]
Level: Crusader 8, Swordsage 8, Warblade 8
Initiation Action: 1 swift action
Range: Melee attack
Target: One creature
Duration: See text
Saving Throw: Will partial
You carve at your foe's face, seeking to get at the lifelight that hides within their blood and soul, damning them to your hunger.
As part of this maneuver, you make a single melee attack. If this attack hits, in addition to normal damage you make a Craft (butchering) check. You gain a bonus on this check equal to the creature's bleeding damage. The creature's inner essence and very life becomes vulnerable to your hunger for a duration based on the check result:


Check Result
Duration


15 or below
1


16-25
2


26-30
3


31-35
4


36+
5


A creature affected by this maneuver is Staggered for a number of rounds based on the result, and for an equal number of minutes all critical hits against it automatically confirm and all stabilization checks automatically fail. A successful Will save (DC 18 + your Str modifier) reduces the duration of the staggered effect to 1 round, and the duration of the rest of the effect to 1 minute.
This maneuver is a supernatural ability.

Bloody Expulsion
Butcher's Madness (Strike)
Level: Crusader 9, Swordsage 9, Warblade 9
Initiation Action: 1 standard action
Range: Melee attack; see text
Target: One living creature; see text
Saving Throw: Fortitude half; see text
You sunder a creature open, and your ki transfuses into its blood, carrying your body into it and through it, to the waiting life beyond.
You can transport yourself great distances via the blood of other creatures. As part of this maneuver, make a melee attack. This attack deals an extra 5d6 points of damage. If the attack hits and deals damage, you can dissolve into blood and enter the target's body, then immediately pass through its blood to the blood of another creature up to 100 feet away. Both the entry creature and destination creature must be your size or larger, and both must also have blood or similar fluid, or at one point have done so (generally doesn't apply to constructs, elementals, or oozes). You merely designate a direction and distance ("a creature 50 feet west of me"), and this maneuver transports you to a destination creature as close as possible to the desired location. You can't specify a named individual as the endpoint unless it is also within sight, or you have previously consumed a sample of its blood. Otherwise, the entry and destination creatures need not be familiar to you. When exiting a creature, you choose an adjacent square in which to appear. If you wish, you can make your exit painless (causing nothing more than surprise and an unsettling wrenching sensation). However, most initiators erupt out of the destination creature, dealing 10d6 points of damage. A successful Fortitude save (DC 19 + your Str modifier) halves this damage. In addition, if the entry creature has any bleeding damage, the destination creature is dealt that much bleeding damage.
This maneuver is a supernatural ability.


(Note: Though I have created the entirety of this discipline, the original credit for its lore, themes, and some of its names goes to Adam Poots and the Butcher in his Kingdom Death: Monster game - you can learn more about this tremendous product with an easy google search (and you should!).

aimlessPolymath
2017-07-18, 10:34 PM
Alright, here's a medium-detail review.

1st level:
Butcher's Hunger: Not OP. You need to get a hit on them in the first place, making it unable to protect you from ambushes, and requires some work in order to deal with hidden enemies. Compare to the Tiger Claw scent stance.
Charging Hound: Looks fine. Tripping charge is pretty good, but compare to the Stone Dragon charge.
Scream of Madness: Iiinteresting. Reminds me of the Will-save defense maneuver. The backlash effect feels a bit off to me, but not overpowered- maybe too weak, actually.

Level 2:
Bloody Hew: After a few reads, this looks a little weak. It will rarely do much bleed damage. Honestly, if the +1 to the check per 5 damage were taken out, I could see it as a level 1 maneuver- 1d6 plus a little upside.
Butcher's Frenzy: This is pretty powerful. Comparable to swift haste, except that you're a martial initiator and can take much better advantage of the speed and attack power. Level 2 maneuvers have always felt a bit sparse to me, and this is a #1 pick. If you want to keep it at this level, I'd copy swift haste completely and make the duration 1d4 rounds.

Level 3:
This level is missing a Strike maneuver, IMO. I might drop the counter for it.
Butcher's Grace: I... can't visualize this. That aside, it feels like it's not going to be useful in most scenarios. If you are surrounded by enemies, they probably aren't very strong ones (or you'll lose already), but 1-3 hp per round will take a while to down your enemies- you might as well use Great Cleave. If you only are fighting a few enemies, then it will be even worse. It might be OK as a Stance.
Impervious Guard: This doesn't feel like it entirely fits in this discipline, and it feels like a Counter, not a Stance.
Lifelight Explosion: This is bizarre in this discipline- blinding light?

Suggested Stance: If you want defense, I suggest tying it to the bleeding condition in some way- perhaps whenever you deal bleed damage to someone, they take a -X penalty to attack rolls for one round.

Level 4:
Bloody Hack: This feels like a level 3 maneuver to me, damage-wise. Compare to Bonecrusher, which is +4d6 at level 3.
Lifelight Hunger: Reduce to a move action.. Compare to Shadow Jaunt (level 2) and Shadow Stride (level 5)- due to the restriction, level 4 seems fine to me.
Roar of Fury: The Wisdom damage is a nice touch, but this just doesn't do very much at level 4. I'd add an extra rider- movement towards you costs double while they are shaken from the effect.

Level 5:
Armored Deflection: Typo in the Duration line. Sure, seems fine after Impervious Guard.
Butcher's Hands: Seems good! I'd eyeball this at around 2-3 bleed damage per person you hit, maybe 4 with optimization.
Crimson Storm: Neat. No idea on balance.

Level 6:
Bloody Carve: I'd move the damage up to +6d6, but seems fine.
Dread Feast: Now THIS is a boss move. Very very good vs. hordes, although weaker in skirmishes. Compare to Rallying Strike, which heals 3d6+level to all allies in a burst. Suggest capping the bonus healing at one die per level.
Slaughtering Spree: This is a bit hard to evaluate, because I'm not sure how much bleed damage one person will take under most circumstances. Still, Entangle is about this duration, though without the selectiveness.

Level 7:
Furious Riposte: Is pushing part of this discipline? I'm not sure what is at this point. I would suggest adding a counter at lower levels which is just an attack against someone trying to attack you, in order to lead in to this maneuver.
Gutting Blow: See Slaughtering Spree. I'm not really sure how much bleed damage people will take on a regular basis, is the thing.

Level 8:
Embrace the Hunger: Stylish. As powerful as a Greater Heroism spell (which is very). Fun to pair this with a Vicious weapon. This does add a subtheme of "fighting while you yourself are damaged", which isn't well supported elsewhere.
Feast of Lifelight: Brutal. It's unclear how the duration works- if you roll a 20, are they staggered for 20 rounds or for 2? The word "equal" may be misleading. Other than that, seems OK.

Level 9:
Bloody Expulsion: Blood magus? Blood magus. Not a fan- doesn't feel very thematic.

What this discipline needs:
Coherence- I'd add the following maneuvers:
-Something armor-related (a counter?) around 1st or 2nd level if you're keeping it the maneuvers which mention heavy armor.
-All the bleed payoff maneuvers are high-level. I suggest adding a low-level one, such as inflicting fatigue, or slowing movement- a single-target entangle version of Slaughtering Spree?
-If you have Embrace the Hunger, I suggest a low-level boost or strike which adds the Vicious quality to an attack or attacks.
-Furious Riposte needs the lower level version, as mentioned.
-Wisdom damage and fear/mental effects show up at low levels, but not at higher levels- oversight?

There's a solid core of bleed-focused abilities in there, but the armor and Wisdom damage-related maneuvers feel like they're part of different disciplines.

There's another issue where this discipline is heavily polarized depending on whether or not magical healing is available. Mass Cure Light Wounds every round or every other round will shut down this class hard, because of the way it interacts with magical healing- it's essentially a race to get the amount of bleed per round as high as possible before a spell erases it all, but if you win, you totally shut out the healing. Consider changing the interaction with magical healing to allowing the caster to balance closing wounds (every 2 hp of healing used on this is enough to reduce the bleed by 1 point- favorable after 2 rounds) and normal healing?

VoodooPaladin
2017-07-19, 06:22 AM
I really like this discipline. Very inspired. Very creative.

To answer your questions: no it does not look too powerful for boss or PC use. It's bound heavily by the action economy in the former case, and specialized enough to not raise alarm bells otherwise.


The maneuvers look solid from where I'm standing. I don't personally like incremental enhancement (Bloody Hew, Hack, and Carve) but that's a stylistic choice. The Wisdom damage is, perhaps, slightly out-of-place. The armor synergy less so; I like that kind of thing and kind of wish it was featured in more of the discipline. (Furious Riposte, lookin' at you)

Polymath makes a solid point about the nature of bleed damage vs. magical healing. This is why Mummy Rot is also a curse that blocks healing. There are ways around this: one strike is already a curse (no heal for you), two more involve teleportation (punish the healers!), even the use of Wis damage could be tied into this somehow...

Wisdom damage could probably be replaced with sickening or nausea, unless it has a reason for being there. This seems like horror stock, so I could see reasons why it would.

I've got some suggestions for if you feel you could use more maneuver ideas, but either way the question is what you're after. How do you feel about the discipline's sub-themes? Just how quick do you think the sweet spot for death of bleeding damage after one clean strike is?

Ziaphas
2017-07-19, 11:54 AM
Thanks for the suggestions, its really gratifying to see people pick up on the nuances I was struggling with and provide solid critiques without needing to be pushed.

Couple of things:
- Thematically, I realize this might seem to have a few disparate parts. Its based off of a very cinematic fight from KD:M, and I wanted to both capture the essence of the amazing creature, but also needed to make a unified and powerful whole for dnd purposes. I like the inclusion of the heavy armor synergy, both because its rare imo to see heavy armor synergy (especially for initiators) AND because it seemed to lend itself well towards a long-fight build, which bleed definitely is.
- As to the Wisdom damage, I needed an analog for basically sanity damage but didn't want to pidgeonhole this discipline into a sanity-based game. Wis dmg seemed a good alternative, but I actually think Sickened is more appropriate, and also more what this discipline wants.


With this feedback, I'm definitely going to bump the d6s on the primary strikes (Hew/Hack/Carve) as I've struggled with whether another die on each was too much several times - I was super glad for the feedback on that.
Same thing with Lifelight Hunger, I wasn't sure if putting it at Move Action made it too "Death-Spiral-y" since its already capitalizing on a moment of weakness - while that makes it "worse" because its limited, but also "better" because it triggers when it can best utilize the opponent's vulnerability? I wasn't sure, glad for the push to Move.

As for substantial changes, I think I'm going to change the Lvl1 Counter to Prone + Sickened, so no permanent damage or effects on the person who affected you, but a SOLID amount of temporary CC. I'll continue that theme to the Roar of Fury, maybe change the name, and switch it from Shaken + Wis dmg to Sickened + "all healing has a CL check or fail for the duration" - again, less permanent damage, more temporary (but as pointed out, probably necessary) cc.
Also, Lifelight Explosion (the lvl 3 counter) was a thematic element from KD:M, but doesn't really fit here perfectly. I think I'll switch that to a counter that causes some sort of modified melee attack (to give some cohesion with the later Knockback counter) that causes blindness to the struck target.

The thing I'm least certain about changing is the Butcher's Grace boost at lvl 3. Does this seem too powerful?
Boost, all attacks deal +1d6 damage and 1 bleed to target and all adjacent, but deal 1d6 to you as well.
Cohesion wise, its Vicious (good points on needing something like that) and changes 1/2 the Vicious damage to bleeding;
Power-wise, its AoE, which can sometimes matter (but still isn't THAT powerful since its only splashing 1d6, +1 bleed, not a full attack).

EDIT: Forgot to mention, I also changed the Duration typo, changed the Haste duration to 1d4 rounds, and added a cap=IL for the heal.
I'm also still interested in any suggestions for the two things mentioned that I haven't addressed - another Armor-based low lvl effect, and a "payoff for bleeding" low lvl effect, if people think they're still necessary? I did aim for a smaller discipline, so there is room to add a bit if it won't get too bloated, and I'm willing to completely rewrite/change things for good ideas!

aimlessPolymath
2017-07-19, 06:10 PM
On mobile so I'll keep it relatively short.

My point with Armor and Wisdom damage was mainly that they feel like loans from other disciplines, one armor-themed, and one sanity-themed. I could easily imagine a character who uses armor who doesn't make bleed attacks, or someone who attacks the minds of others who doesn't use armor, and so on. I could easily see a player who wants the armor tricks, but doesn't care about the rest of the discipline, for example.

If you want your boss to make use of those maneuvers, it isn't much of a stretch to use DM arbitration to give him access to maneuvers outside his known disciplines, but calling them part of the same style feels off.

New Butcher's Grace... Maybe drop the extra 1d6 AoE, and put it on the target of the attack only? Otherwise I could see things getting a little silly between the Swift Haste maneuver and the Cleave feat- also sometimes you would end up attacking enemies next to the guy you want to hurt in order to get him, because they have lower AC.

A little more detailed thoughts on low levels:

I would make the following changes at low level (feel free to disregard this if you like, it contains my own discipline opinions) :
Level 1:
Scream of Madness is moved to its own discipline.
Bloody Hew reduced by 1d6, moved to level 1- it's was the only "real" source of bleed early on.
New Boost: Bleeding Wounds. Whenever you hit someone with an attack which deals piercing or slashing damage, you also deal 1 bleed damage.

Explanation: You need a reliable source of bleed damage early on to function in the discipline, and really "feel" like an member of the discipline. I added two. Bloody Hew becomes the standard "+1d6 plus rider" effect that you'd see at 1st level.

Level 2:
Bloody Hew moved to level 1.
New Maneuver: Bleed Out: As Feast of Lifelight, except that the target is instead shaken for a number of rounds and fatigued for a number of minutes equal to the duration calculation. If the calculation comes to 3 or more, they are exhausted instead.
If they succeed on the save, it's reduced to 1 minute of fatigue, no matter the result.
New Counter: Retribution. In response to someone making an attack against you, you make an attack against them. You take a - 2 penalty to AC though.

Explanation:
With all those bleed triggers, here's a little payoff. You can now apply a nasty debuff (-3 to attack rolls, and - their level in HP) for a couple of rounds, with slight scaling up with level. Retribution is there to act as a "base level" for the counters related to attacking back, and is balanced against Flashing Sun.