Making magic items in 3.0 and 3.5 (rant)

[Yahzi]

In 3.0, the requirement for making a Headband of Intellect is Commune or Legend Lore. This means it requires a 9th level cleric or 11th level wizard. (Even though the typical caster level of a Headband found as treasure is 8...)

In 3.5, the requirement is Fox's Cunning, which is a 2nd level spell (that doesn't even exist in 3.0). This means a 3rd level wizard can make even the most powerful +6 headband.

So we go from a world where only master wizards can make the single most valuable item for a wizard, to one in which every hedge wizard can make the supreme item, if only they can find enough raw materials.

Why, it's almost as if they didn't put any thought at all into this...

[Mordaedil]

I'm pretty sure Fox's Cunning existed in 3.0 given that it is featured in NWN1, a decidedly 3.0 based game.

[Yahzi]

I'm pretty sure Fox's Cunning existed in 3.0 given that it is featured in NWN1, a decidedly 3.0 based game.Nope, I've got the book (the actual, physical book) right here. Fly, Fog Cloud, Forbiddance, Forcecage, Foresight, Freedom... no Fox. Just Bull's Strength and Cat's Grace. Because of course wizards would only ever want to boost the attributes that apply to fighters and rogues. :smallbiggrin:

I did not know that it's was NWN1. Huh.

[DeTess]

It's also an item a wizard will only be able to make by 7th level if WBL guidelines are followed, because of the cost of creating it. I see your point, but it's not quite as bad as you think.

[Eldariel]

Nope, I've got the book (the actual, physical book) right here. Fly, Fog Cloud, Forbiddance, Forcecage, Foresight, Freedom... no Fox. Just Bull's Strength and Cat's Grace. Because of course wizards would only ever want to boost the attributes that apply to fighters and rogues. :smallbiggrin:

I did not know that it's was NWN1. Huh.

It's in 3.0 supplements: Tome and Blood and Savage Species.

[Yahzi]

It's in 3.0 supplements: Tome and Blood and Savage Species.
Ah, supplements. I don't have any of those. Thanks.

This is so annoying. In 3.0 a +2 INT Headband requires at least a 9th rank cleric or 11th level wizard, while a +6 STR Belt can be made by a 3rd level wizard. Then it all changes when you move to 3.5.

For those of us who wonder, "Gosh, what kind of magic can you buy in a town with a 5th level wizard?" the book is virtually hopeless. The DMG basically assumes that the world is full of 17th level casters, who make stupid things like Rings of Jumping just because, and that players should never bother to make items or even inquire where they come from. The whole concept of, "If Kingdom A goes to war with Kingdom B, how many wands of fireballs can they make?" is supposed to be solved by the DM waving his hands. Pro tip, WotC... my hands are tired!

How about this: at 3rd level you can make anything that appears on the "Minor" treasure tables. At 7th level you can make anything that appears on the "Medium" tables. At 11th you can make "Major" items. See how simple that is? Now I can quickly scan a few tables, as a player or DM, and see what is for sale. Low-level casters can only make low-level items, which seems appropriate. Objects of different power are still differentiated by cost. It's all neat and tidy and quick.

Of course that single paragraph invalidates all the work they did of picking spell prerequisites and making up (random) typical caster levels. Hours of work they put into details that are obscure, wonky, unpredictable, and sometimes contradictory. Am I wrong to wish that they had done less work and more thinking?

[Mordaedil]

Well, that's kind of why nobody plays 3.0 edition anymore. Everybody has moved on to either 3.5 edition or Pathfinder.

[Kaleph]

In 3.5, the requirement is Fox's Cunning, which is a 2nd level spell (that doesn't even exist in 3.0). This means a 3rd level wizard can make even the most powerful +6 headband.

This is the only point I can't follow. The creator's caster level must be as high as the item's caster Level, and in addition he must be able to fulfil all other prerequisites, including cost to create - so a headband of intellect can be created by a level 8+ wizard or equivalent, provided that he can pay the 1440xp. So, if my reading is correct, there's not such a huge difference between 3.0 and 3.5.

Nevertheless I agree in principle, that multiple caster level requirements, scaling up with the power of the item, should be provided. Something like:
Moderate transmutation; Craft Wondrous Item, fox’s cunning; Price 4,000 gp (+2, CL 5), 16,000 gp (+4, CL 9), 36,000 gp (+6, CL 13).

[Mordaedil]

I think casters already pay a hefty enough cost spending a feat for an item creation feat, when they could just as well ask the DM at any time "does any store in this city sell X".

If they really wanted headbands of intellect +6, they could just ask if they sell them and not need to spend their xp to create the item themselves.

I mean, they can just get turned down by the DM, but there's really nothing stopping wizard from seeking out a master craftsman and putting in an order for a fee. I just don't see "raw materials" as being a problem in the game. That's kinda what it is all about, killing monsters, obtaining loot, use loot to become better at killing monsters.

[Eldariel]

I mean, they can just get turned down by the DM, but there's really nothing stopping wizard from seeking out a master craftsman and putting in an order for a fee. I just don't see "raw materials" as being a problem in the game. That's kinda what it is all about, killing monsters, obtaining loot, use loot to become better at killing monsters.

Well, also global politics, changing the (game)world, planar and religious matters, morality, diplomacy and intimidation, etc.

[Mordaedil]

Well, also global politics, changing the (game)world, planar and religious matters, morality, diplomacy and intimidation, etc.

To be fair, we add all that on top of the game presented, which is just a bunch of combat rules for miniatures. It's still the most entertaining hobby and has a lot of support for doing things besides moving miniatures around which is why so many of us are still drawn to it, I think.

I was just narrowing it down to what they bother detailing, since they leave a lot of the above to the DM and players to do with as they please (even though they are arguably the best and biggest part of the hobby)

[Yahzi]

The creator's caster level must be as high as the item's caster Level
Not true, though almost everyone makes that mistake. The CL listed for a magic item is merely the CL you find it at. It controls how hard it is to dispel, make, spell effects, etc. You can make the item at any CL from the minimum for its prerequisites up to your own CL.

This is a completely silly and arbitrary distinction. No one can begin to guess why anyone would make a 1st level item at 20th CL, except that they want to spend more money on it? Just another way they did bad, bad work.


Well, that's kind of why nobody plays 3.0 edition anymore
Fair enough :smallbiggrin:, but I've got a lot of work put into 3.0. Although the most significant changes (to economic and political magic) are the cost of Raise Dead, and the change from Fly to Overland Flight. Still, it's not much better in 3.5 - these problems are probably still there in the magic item prereqs.


ask the DM at any time "does any store in this city sell X".
But, as the DM, how am I supposed to know the answer?

The reason it matters is that I want to run D&D the old way - that is, when you get to 9th level you build your own castle, become a political leader, and fight on the battlefield of nations. This whole idea of 13th level characters who spend all their time kicking in dungeon doors and then go home to kingdoms ruled by 3rd level Aristocrats just strikes me as... unsatisfying.

I've got most everything nailed down now. It's just magic item creation, which is so random it resists analysis. I wish I could find a list of magic items by CL required to create them, but I don't think anyone has done that much analysis. And why should they? It's chock full of stupid... :smallfrown:

[Kaleph]

Not true, though almost everyone makes that mistake. The CL listed for a magic item is merely the CL you find it at. It controls how hard it is to dispel, make, spell effects, etc. You can make the item at any CL from the minimum for its prerequisites up to your own CL.

I quote directly from the DMG:
For potions, scrolls, and wands, the creator can set the caster level (...)
For other magic items, the caster level is determined by the item itself. In this case, the creator’s caster level must be as high as the item’s caster Level (...).

EDIT
Errata'ed in the SRD

[Grand Poobah]

Don't forget each village, town, city etc has GP values for total assets and maximum single item value, which will give you a guide on what's available. AFB atm so can't quote a page ref but DMG iirc.

[Yahzi]

the caster level is determined by the item itself. In this case, the creator’s caster level must be as high as the item’s caster Level

Really? There's a whole thread on it here: Crafting-Magic-Items-Caster-Level (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?219812-Crafting-Magic-Items-Caster-Level). When I google for your actual quote, I just find a StackExchange (https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/92382/are-magic-item-caster-levels-prerequisites)thread that explains the opposite.

Where are you seeing this errata? (Again, this is obviously a huge source of confusion for everyone.)


city etc has GP values for total assets and maximum single item value
True, but this is wholly useless when it's a player's city. :smallbiggrin:

I'm writing a program that generates an entire D&D continent, with kingdoms and armies and churches and magic shops and monsters and overlords. Half the fun is buying stuff in one place and transporting it somewhere else for a profit (like Traveller :smallbiggrin:). So I need a bit more granularity than that.

[Kaleph]

Really? There's a whole thread on it here: Crafting-Magic-Items-Caster-Level (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?219812-Crafting-Magic-Items-Caster-Level). When I google for your actual quote, I just find a StackExchange (https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/92382/are-magic-item-caster-levels-prerequisites)thread that explains the opposite.
Where are you seeing this errata? (Again, this is obviously a huge source of confusion for everyone.)

The sentences I quote are from the DMG I have. I searched for the same section in the SRD, and it's completely different. I post both versions.

For potions, scrolls, and wands, the creator can set the caster level of an item at any number high enough to cast the stored spell and not higher than her own caster level. For example, at 5th level, Mialee could scribe a scroll of invisibility at caster level 3rd (making it last 3 minutes), caster level 4th (4 minutes), or caster level 5th (5 minutes). For other magic items, the caster level is determined by the item itself. In this case, the creator’s caster level must be as high as the item’s caster level (and prerequisites may effectively put a higher minimum on the creator’s level).

For potions, scrolls, and wands, the creator can set the caster level of an item at any number high enough to cast the stored spell and not higher than her own caster level. For other magic items, the caster level is determined by the creator. The minimum caster level is that which is needed to meet the prerequisites given.

As you see, the original sentence of the DMG was very unfortunate, while the SRD is much clearer. According to the original wording, CL as reported in the item description and CL due to prerequisites (including the spell) appeared as two different conditions to be fulfilled. The sentence was errata'ed by the WotC here (http://archive.wizards.com/dnd/files/DMG_Errata032004.zip) (but it's not included in my DMG), and accordingly reported in the SRD.

That's what I mean with "errata'ed in the SRD".

[Yahzi]

That's what I mean with "errata'ed in the SRD".
Right; that's what I was trying to say (though not much more clearly than the DMG).

The Caster Level listed in the magic item description is, by and large, irrelevant. Unless it specifically states "requires caster level of X."

Which makes you wonder why they bothered to put one there that wasn't the minimum required. :smallmad:

[Eldariel]

Right; that's what I was trying to say (though not much more clearly than the DMG).

The Caster Level listed in the magic item description is, by and large, irrelevant. Unless it specifically states "requires caster level of X."

Which makes you wonder why they bothered to put one there that wasn't the minimum required. :smallmad:

It exists for the purposes of effects that care about CL, like Dispel Magic.

[Sagetim]

I just want to point out that even if a 3rd level character could craft a headband of intellect +6, by having the cash around, they would probably shy away from dumping 1440 xp into doing so. That's A LOT of their total xp at that level. But if you want to get really silly with an example: Craft Ring. It requires, what, level 12 to even take the feat? And yet there are so many piddling little rings, off hand the Ring of Sustenance is caster level 3, right? Shouldn't every ring be caster level 12 minimum, since someone decided that instead of being part of wondrous items, rings had to have their own particular feat tax?

Oh, and xp costs are an arbitrary addition of 3.0 that got kept in 3.5. They were dropped in subsequent editions like 4e, Pathfinder, and 5e. And you Got xp for creating magic items in 2nd. So if you want to be old school about it, and help explain why high level wizards might be making items that are otherwise not really worth their time nor hard earned xp...if you earn some for every item you complete, it makes for a safe way to gradually gain levels. Though, spells weren't keyed to xp costs (so much? at all?) in 2nd edition. Sure, you might still lose a level in 2nd ed for dying and getting raised or what have you, but wish aged you 5 years instead of costing 5k xp.

Of course, if you implemented the optional 2nd edition rules, or a semblance of them, for earning xp for doing class related activities for arcane casters, then priests, rogues, and fighters would be fair to demand the same. Meaning that fighters would want to last hit every significant monster (for something like 10 bonus xp per hit die) rogues would want to actively steal material wealth from rich people and get away with it (for 1xp per gold piece value of stolen objects, not from party members), and priest like characters would want to actually cast spells to help/intimidate npcs and further their god's agenda (with some amount of xp keyed off of spell level that I can't recall, 100?)