Whip Ranger build?

[gloryblaze]

https://i.warosu.org/data/tg/img/0402/39/1432849767092.jpg

Was browsing generic fantasy art and came across this - I think it's a MtG card, but whatever it is, it's hella badass :biggrin:

So, I'm planning on using the image as a starting point for my next character build. The relatively light armor and cowboy hat SCREAM ranger to me (is that weird? I can't see her as a rogue or fighter lol), with the background hinting at maybe Deep Stalker (but I'll probably go Hunter just cause I love the idea of Whirlwind Attack with a whip! Then again, Stalker's Flurry with a whip is a pretty cool concept too...)

Right now I was thinking of something along the lines of:

Vuman Ranger

10
15+1
14
10
13+1
10

(point buy)

Feat: Dual Wielder

And proceeding to wield the whip in one hand and in the other a dagger for throwing (I can draw + chuck + draw + chuck in one turn thanks to DW feat), offhand attacks in melee, and proccing spells like Hail of Thorns, Conjure Barrage, and Lightning Arrow. Obviously I'd take TWF Fighting style at Level 2, then either DS or Hunter at 3.

Other options I was considering were taking starting feat: magic initiate (wizard) and grabbing Booming Blade for reach shenanigans, but I think I would need spell sniper to use BB with a whip properly, so the build wouldn't come online until Level 4, which is right before I get Extra Attack, which is anti-synergetic with Booming Blade.

Another thing I was thinking about was going start feat crossbow expert and wielding whip + hand crossbow + archery fighting style. The main issue I have with that build is that as soon as I take crossbow expert, the hand crossbow has better "reach" than the whip, better damage than the whip (1d6 vs 1d4), no disadvantage for being used in melee, procs the spells mentioned before (Hail of Thorns, Conjure Barrage/Volley, etc), and by RAW the hand crossbow procs its own BA attack as it IS a one handed weapon. So if I did that, there would be no reason to have the whip at all, which sort of kills the build concept. I'm willing to go for a weaker but more flavorful build at character creation (whip + daggers), but purposefully gimping myself during actual gameplay by using a primary weapon that is inferior in every way to the one I LITERALLY have in my other hand... well, I would feel silly :tongue:

Really what I want to do is bounce the build idea off y'all and see what you think, how to optimize the whip+dagger build as I level up, and if there's any other basic whip Ranger builds that I totally missed when I was planning the concept. Thanks in advance!!

[Azgeroth]

instead of two weapon fighting, take the dueling fighting style, only draw the hand crossbow when you need it, your whip is now 1d4+2 which is better than a d6 (higher average).

that also means if you needed to you could use a shield or net off hand (i dont think a net is considered a weapon?)

take the crossbow expert anyway, or maybe the martial adept feat, so you can prone/push/pull people with your whip (granted its a very limited ability, but thematically cool as hell)

alternatively, you could take the observant, lucky, or dungeon delver feat(s) to round out that indiana jones feel..

[nickl_2000]

SNIP
that also means if you needed to you could use a shield or net off hand (i dont think a net is considered a weapon?)
SNIP


A net is certainly a weapon (it's in the weapon table in the book). It's just a weapon that does no damage and gets destroyed by slashing damage (a whip). Also there is some disagreement on whether you could throw the net and also use the whip on the same turn, see your DM for a ruling.

Still the option of a shield or dagger would be nice.

[RSP]

And proceeding to wield the whip in one hand and in the other a dagger for throwing (I can draw + chuck + draw + chuck in one turn thanks to DW feat), offhand attacks in melee, and proccing spells like Hail of Thorns, Conjure Barrage, and Lightning Arrow.

A few quick things:

DW feat's third benefit states "You can draw or stow two one-handed weapons when you would normally be able to draw or stow only one." Drawing a weapon uses the free item interact. DW lets you draw 2 weapons when normally you can draw one, however, it doesn't give a second free item interact. I believe the RAW is you would have to draw both daggers at the same time using the DW benefit. Plus, if you're spending the feat on DW, why not just dual wield two whips?

Also, keep in mind the component requirements of the spells you're looking to use with the thrown dagger, as CB and LA both require a free hand for casting.

The suggestion of going Dueling FS helps make the whip more effective (so long as not using the off hand).

Taking Defensive Duelist might be thematic in using the whip defensively as well as its finesse, and probably gets a lot more use than Marrial Adept.

[Easy_Lee]

This concept would work better as a rogue. Whip / dagger is actually very effective on a rogue. You have two effective ranges for opportunity attacks, can throw the dagger when you need a ranged attack, can stay out of melee range and force creatures to move in when they want to attack you, and can take feats like mage slayer and sentinel to give yourself extra reaction attacks for sneak attack.

In contrast, a whip on a ranger really only has one use: using ensnaring strike to immobilize foes where they can't hit you. And that usage is limited, since most of the targets you'd want to keep out of melee range of will have high strength.

[DivisibleByZero]

I concur with both the comments about a) crossbow expert, and b) this being better on a rogue.
Dip something to get whip proficiency (or ask your DM if you can just be proficient with it) and take XbX instead of DW.
Whip and handXbow combo on a rogue is amazing.

[Easy_Lee]

I concur with both the comments about a) crossbow expert, and b) this being better on a rogue.
Dip something to get whip proficiency (or ask your DM if you can just be proficient with it) and take XbX instead of DW.
Whip and handXbow combo on a rogue is amazing.

I always forget that rogues don't have whip proficiency. That said, a one level dip into the revised ranger may be the ticket. The level one benefits are powerful for that class, and work well with rogue.

[DivisibleByZero]

I always forget that rogues don't have whip proficiency. That said, a one level dip into the revised ranger may be the ticket. The level one benefits are powerful for that class, and work well with rogue.

Yeah, I think it's crap that rogues don't get whip prof in 5e, so I don't see it as a problem to give it *back* to them.

[xroads]

Was browsing generic fantasy art and came across this - I think it's a MtG card, but whatever it is, it's hella badass :biggrin:

So, I'm planning on using the image as a starting point for my next character build. The relatively light armor and cowboy hat SCREAM ranger to me (is that weird? I can't see her as a rogue or fighter lol), with the background hinting at maybe Deep Stalker (but I'll probably go Hunter just cause I love the idea of Whirlwind Attack with a whip! Then again, Stalker's Flurry with a whip is a pretty cool concept too...)

Just for reference, I think I have seen her in Magic. And if memory serves, she's an inquisitor of some sort.

[Haydensan]

With using a whip it feels thematic that you could do some of the stuff the battlemaster does such as disarming and tripping the enemy. I DM a game and i'm not sure how i'd respond atm if a player not a BM asked about using a whip like that.

On one hand I don't want to pigeon whole those combat options so that only a BM can attempt them, especially with a weapon as rarely seen as the whip.

But on the otherhand, i dont want to take a away from what any Battlemaster fighters might find is "their thing".

Any ideas how to resolve?

Edit: awesome picture and ranger with a whip seems really thematic. I love the idea of a rogue with a whip also using as an aid in their acrobatics.

[Lord Il Palazzo]

Just for reference, I think I have seen her in Magic. And if memory serves, she's an inquisitor of some sort.That would be Thraben Valiant (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=240099). The closest the card gives us to a character class is that she's a soldier (creature type) and that she has the authority to command other soldiers into battle (flavor text). She's from a setting where the military (and the rest of the government) is basically a branch of the church, protecting humanity from all manner of unholy horrors so "inquisitor" isn't a bad term for the job.


With using a whip it feels thematic that you could do some of the stuff the battlemaster does such as disarming and tripping the enemy. I DM a game and i'm not sure how i'd respond atm if a player not a BM asked about using a whip like that.

On one hand I don't want to pigeon whole those combat options so that only a BM can attempt them, especially with a weapon as rarely seen as the whip.

But on the otherhand, i dont want to take a away from what any Battlemaster fighters might find is "their thing".

Any ideas how to resolve?There are rules for disarming, shoving (including knocking someone prone) and similar maneuvers baked into the rules. All Battle Master does is allow them to be performed as part of an attack that deals damage apply a saving throw (instead of opposed rolls) to resolve what happens. Shoving (including knocking someone prone) is in the PHB on pg. 195 and is athletics opposed by athletics or acrobatics. Disarming is in the DMG on pg. 271 and is an attack roll with your weapon opposed by the target's athletics or acrobatics. Either can be used in place of a normal attack.

[Naanomi]

Rogue 1/Fighter 1/Rogue (swashbuckler) +18

[Haydensan]

There are rules for disarming, shoving (including knocking someone prone) and similar maneuvers baked into the rules. All Battle Master does is allow them to be performed as part of an attack that deals damage apply a saving throw (instead of opposed rolls) to resolve what happens. Shoving (including knocking someone prone) is in the PHB on pg. 195 and is athletics opposed by athletics or acrobatics. Disarming is in the DMG on pg. 271 and is an attack roll with your weapon opposed by the target's athletics or acrobatics. Either can be used in place of a normal attack.

Cheers a bunch. I use the contested shoving (both prone and pushing) regurlarly, dont know why i didn't make the link to use them with a whip. Guess a shove sounded weird in my head for a whip. Now to make it work with a Dex rogue or ranger is my next thought. For rogue i guess you could take expertise athletics which isn't unheard of.

[Lord Il Palazzo]

Now to make it work with a Dex rogue or ranger is my next thought. For rogue i guess you could take expertise athletics which isn't unheard of.Pretty much. No matter how dexterous you are, you need the strength to knock/pull someone's feet out from under them or you need the knowhow to apply the strength you do have properly.

[Naanomi]

If your concept is whip fighter; you could always start with a level of fighter; go the rest rogue; and use STR as your attack stat... nothing is forcing you to use DEX (beyond, in this case, multiclassing requirement).

[Potato_Priest]

One thing that seems to have been ignored so far that the ranger can take full advantage of with a whip: Entangling strike. It's very thematic, and would help keep enemies out of melee range, costing them a full action to escape.

I'm going to assume that you're using the unearthed arcana revised ranger.

For fighting style, I'd second the duelist recommendation. At level 1, pick humanoids or monstrosities as your favored enemy (depending on campaign theme), so that at level 1 you're dealing 1d4+dex+duelist+favored enemy against many of your opponents.

If you choose hunter ranger, take horse breaker at level 3. It gives you an extra attack with all of those damage mods pretty frequently, and keeps your bonus action free for entangling strike.

[Easy_Lee]

If you choose hunter ranger, take horse breaker at level 3. It gives you an extra attack with all of those damage mods pretty frequently, and keeps your bonus action free for entangling strike.

Horse breaker =D.

I'd multiclass into rogue after level 5 and take colossus slayer instead. You can only ensnaring strike one target at a time. Use that to build a character who keeps single foes restrained while doing considerable damage to them from just outside their reach.

It's niche, but ought be effective against certain types of enemies. Flyers come to mind. The spell Jump, which is on the ranger spell list, might be useful for handling flyers as well as whip acrobatics.

[DivisibleByZero]

Horse breaker =D.

He *is* a Ranger. :smalltongue:

[gloryblaze]

Thanks for the comments guys! So we're thinking Ranger 5 (for whip prof and entangling strike) into Rogue X? With the rogue levels, do we go duelist and keep a free hand for grappling, or do we keep the dagger for TWF (if I recall correctly, melee rogues prefer TWF in order to have twice the chance to proc sneak attack, and it also means I get to apply Hunter's Mark damage twice if for whatever reason I decide to concentrate on it instead of casting ES, Hail of Thorns, Conjure Barrage)

And are we thinking Assassin, Thief, AT, Swashbuckler, or Mastermind? AT gives bonus spell slots, Assassin synergizes pretty well with Natural Explorer, Swashbuckler gives more consistent Sneak Attack procs... Hmmm.

[Naanomi]

How are you determining Stats? Whether I recommend swashbuckler or AT depends a lot on if we can spare some points for Charisma or not

[gloryblaze]

How are you determining Stats? Whether I recommend swashbuckler or AT depends a lot on if we can spare some points for Charisma or not

The sample stats in the OP used point buy. I could dump Str, Int, or Cha to 8 to boost Int or Cha slightly.

On another note, regarding M/S components for spells, I think HoT is strictly verbal, so no free hand needed, while the "material component" for Conjure Barrage is the dagger itself. Can I do the somatic components with the hand holding the dagger, or will I need to pick up War Caster?

Bonus question, if I do need War Caster to cast CB with whip + dagger, do archery rangers need it to use CB with any bow or xbow (besides hand xbows), since they're two handed weapons?

[Easy_Lee]

I just remembered that whips aren't light, either. Damn. That means you'd technically need dual wielder to TWF with one.

For a strict RAW build, I recommend the ranger 5 / rogue X route with Dueling and a free hand. That should offer good damage and utility. Thief may be a good choice here, as you can use the free hand for Fast Hands item usage.

Between cunning action and ranger spells, you should have plenty to do with your bonus. And two attacks per round is plenty of opportunity to land sneak attack.

[gloryblaze]

I just remembered that whips aren't light, either. Damn. That means you'd technically need dual wielder to TWF with one.

For a strict RAW build, I recommend the ranger 5 / rogue X route with Dueling and a free hand. That should offer good damage and utility. Thief may be a good choice here, as you can use the free hand for Fast Hands item usage.

Between cunning action and ranger spells, you should have plenty to do with your bonus. And two attacks per round is plenty of opportunity to land sneak attack.

Sounds good - would I take Martial Adept, then, for my starting feat, or something else?

[DivisibleByZero]

Sounds good - would I take Martial Adept, then, for my starting feat, or something else?

One more time:
XbX
Crossbow expert.
You don't need a light weapon. You still get a bonus attack if you want/need it. You still get to add your mod to damage. And you have slightly more range when you need it.
A rogue with XbX is better off than TWF unless your DM is a jerk about reloading it.
Bonus because you now no longer need Ranger 5.

[Chugger]

Is there a whip feat - you disarm someone or you restrain them? There should be!

This is one of the best ranger posts I've seen - of course you're right - go ranger. But the absolute funniest ranger post I ever saw was someone using the beast master way and taming a panther with a halfling ranger, who would then totally pimp out his poor panther with a fancy saddle and barding - and he would RIDE it around going "look at me! look at me!" :smallcool: And I guess he'd shoot his short bow every once in a while. This, on the other hand - the whip thing - is genuinely bad*ss and worth trying out.

[gloryblaze]

One more time:
XbX
Crossbow expert.
You don't need a light weapon. You still get a bonus attack if you want/need it. You still get to add your mod to damage. And you have slightly more range when you need it.
A rogue with XbX is better off than TWF unless your DM is a jerk about reloading it.
Bonus because you now no longer need Ranger 5.

I'll definitely consider it, but the thing is, I want to be a ranger - even if it is a tad suboptimal compared to pure Rogue. So I'm definitely going to stick to Ranger 5 (maybe even more, but I'll probably go Ranger 5 -> Rogue X and then maybe jump back to Ranger if the campaign goes long enough). XbX sounds pretty good though

[DivisibleByZero]

I'll definitely consider it, but the thing is, I want to be a ranger - even if it is a tad suboptimal compared to pure Rogue. So I'm definitely going to stick to Ranger 5 (maybe even more, but I'll probably go Ranger 5 -> Rogue X and then maybe jump back to Ranger if the campaign goes long enough). XbX sounds pretty good though

You want to be a Ranger. OK.
That's even more of a reason for XbX instead of another feat, because crossbows work with the particular Ranger specific spells that no one else gets which require a ranged attack (eg: lightning arrow, etc). Can't use them while dual wielding melee weapons. A Ranger who doesn't have a box/crossbow on hand isn't using his full arsenal.
If you want to be a Ranger and do Ranger-y things, but you also want to dual wield, XbX gives you the best of both worlds.
Handbow for range, whip for when you want to toss some melee in, both concurrently if you desire (and your DM isn't a stickler about the whole reloading thing).

[Easy_Lee]

You want to be a Ranger. OK.
That's even more of a reason for XbX instead of another feat, because crossbows work with the particular Ranger specific spells that no one else gets which require a ranged attack (eg: lightning arrow, etc). Can't use them while dual wielding melee weapons. A Ranger who doesn't have a box/crossbow on hand isn't using his full arsenal.
If you want to be a Ranger and do Ranger-y things, but you also want to dual wield, XbX gives you the best of both worlds.
Handbow for range, whip for when you want to toss some melee in, both concurrently if you desire (and your DM isn't a stickler about the whole reloading thing).

I agree with this. A pure ranger needs some form of ranged attack. Too many ranger spells require ammunition.

One more thing to remember about whip rangers: reach doesn't benefit whirlwind attack. For whatever reason, the ability specifically says foes within 5'.

With that in mind, you may consider the revised BM archetype. It fixes most of the problems with the original and is, in general, pretty good. You won't get extra attack, horde breaker, or any of that. But you will get a companion that can do many things both in and out of combat. And with a whip, you can setup situations where a foe has to move to hit you, provoking an opportunity attack from your companion.

A whip ranger fighting alongside a panther is a good look.

[Twizzly513]

I love the idea of a rogue with a whip also using as an aid in their acrobatics.

Indiana Jones

'Nuff said

[gloryblaze]

You want to be a Ranger. OK.
That's even more of a reason for XbX instead of another feat, because crossbows work with the particular Ranger specific spells that no one else gets which require a ranged attack (eg: lightning arrow, etc). Can't use them while dual wielding melee weapons. A Ranger who doesn't have a box/crossbow on hand isn't using his full arsenal.
If you want to be a Ranger and do Ranger-y things, but you also want to dual wield, XbX gives you the best of both worlds.
Handbow for range, whip for when you want to toss some melee in, both concurrently if you desire (and your DM isn't a stickler about the whole reloading thing).


I agree with this. A pure ranger needs some form of ranged attack. Too many ranger spells require ammunition.

One more thing to remember about whip rangers: reach doesn't benefit whirlwind attack. For whatever reason, the ability specifically says foes within 5'.

With that in mind, you may consider the revised BM archetype. It fixes most of the problems with the original and is, in general, pretty good. You won't get extra attack, horde breaker, or any of that. But you will get a companion that can do many things both in and out of combat. And with a whip, you can setup situations where a foe has to move to hit you, provoking an opportunity attack from your companion.

A whip ranger fighting alongside a panther is a good look.

Sounds like XbX it is then!

I was planning to do Deep Stalker (we use the UA Revised Ranger, so it's a core archetype for that one), which avoids the whirlwind attack issue