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View Full Version : D&D 5e/Next Initiative Remastered: For your Tactical consideration



Steampunkette
2017-07-17, 12:29 PM
So. Mearls wanted a more complex initiative system that made combat ore dynamic and less static. After all, in 5e your locked in place leads to people zoning out, sometimes, because they're waiting for whoever goes before them to get a turn so they can pay attention to what's happening right before their turn comes up.

However, his system is poop from a butt. It's overly complex, requires too much up-front preparation, and ultimately rewards people for standing still and doing as little as possible. It also doesn't lend itself well to abilities that improve one's initiative in the first place. So without further ado, here we go:

Steampunkette's Amazing Dynamic Rolling Tactical Initiative!

1. Roll initiative normally on the first round of combat.

2. After you've acted, look at your action chart and determine which dice to roll.

3. Roll the die.

4. Subtract the result from your current initiative. If that number would reduce your initiative to 0, loop around to 20 and count any remaining numbers down.

5. The result is your initiative for the next round.

Tadaaaaaah!

And now for the chart.

Spellcasting
Cast a Cantrip: 1d4
Cast a 1st-3rd level spell: 1d6
Cast a 4th-5th level spell: 1d8
Cast a 6th-7th level spell: 1d10
Cast an 8th-9th level spell: 1d12


Weapon Attacks
Make a Weapon Attack: The Damage Die of the Weapon is used. For Dual-wielding and Versatile Weapons, the attacker can choose which weapon Damage Die to use.
Make an Unarmed Attack: The Damage Die of the unarmed attack or 1d4, the attacker chooses which die to use.


Maneuvers
Dash: 1d4
Dodge or Disengage: 1d6
Hide or Use an Object: 1d8
Grapple, Breath Weapon, or other Combat Maneuver: 1d10



Movement, Bonus Actions, and Reactions have no effect on your initiative count.

In this much simpler method, your initiative becomes a tactical choice. Do you swing for the fences with a Greataxe to hopefully drive your initiative down more quickly to roll up to the top, or try to go for something with a little less damage up front to try and maintain their initiative and let the enemy drop down past them? It also gives Dual Wielders and Versatile characters a slight advantage, giving them the ability to maintain initiative advantage longer, or drop through initiative more quickly, depending on what weapons they're using.

You may now proceed to laud me with endless praise. ;)

Might use this system in the next game I run.

JNAProductions
2017-07-17, 01:46 PM
Seems a little finicky to use, but cool. Worth trying, at the very least.

Yanecky
2017-07-18, 02:13 AM
Look interesting! I might test it, but to save time I'd use flat numbers instead of additional dice (e.g. d4-->+2)

zeek0
2017-07-18, 05:33 AM
Interesting system. Your initiative isn't determined by what you *will do*, but rather by what you *did*. It allows you to choose what you want to do on the fly, which you can't do with Greyhawk Initiative (a terrible awful thing or a rather nice feature, depending on who you talk to).

Perhaps I don't understand it right, but it seems that any given character will not be predictably better at initiative after a few rounds of combat. At that point, the numbers have looped around themselves a bit, and you couldn't really predict whether the rogue or the barbarian will be more likely to hit first that round.

Do I have the right?

Steampunkette
2017-07-18, 07:38 AM
You do, Zeek! Mostly.

The Rogue is going to go first, more than likely, thanks to a high initiative modifier. And then maintain advantage (Probably) by using smaller damage die weapons while other characters drop down the initiative more rapidly thanks to using larger dice. So on average the Rogue will maintain advantage for a few rounds, which is how long most combats are.

But the situation can change based on rolls. Even a Barbarian with a Greataxe can roll 1s on the d12 while the Rogue drops 4s and 6s on d4s and d6s.

I would say initiative advantage is still a thing for 2-3 rounds. After that things might turn around.

robbie374
2017-07-18, 10:12 AM
I like it. Adjusting based on what was already done is definitely less constraining. Good idea!

JBPuffin
2017-07-18, 10:29 AM
My only complaint: Dragonborn are penalized even further, as now their one racial feature takes longer than about 75% of the actions low-level characters take. Changing initiative order is a fun idea that most DnD variants avoid, but this is a very nifty and functional variant that doesn't rob players of tactical cooperation while still tying it to the players' choices. Nice work, Steampunkette :smallsmile:.

Steampunkette
2017-07-18, 11:01 AM
People like my idea! *glee!*

It does cause the Dragonborn to have a d10 option for their initiative modifier... but I should stress that it's an option: not a penalty.

Let's say you're playing a Dragonborn Rogue for character reasons. You've got a shortsword in your main hand and a dagger in your offhand so that you can control how fast you drop down the initiative order as a dual-wielder. But, through no fault of your own, you wind up with an initiative of 5! (+3 dex mod, rolled a 2). You're going to go almost last this round. And unless you roll a 5 or 6 on your d6 ('Cause you're using a shortsword for your attack action) you're gonna go last, again, next round.

So hit your Breath Weapon, instead, to hasten the wrap-around to 20. Average roll of 5.5 means you're probably gonna go on 19 or 20 next round!

And if you're a fighter-type character you're probably already swinging d8s, d10s, or 2d6. So throwing a d10 in there isn't going to be a big change.

Low level casters, though, with their d4 and d6 cantrip and 1st level spells will also be able to make great use of a d10 to catapult themselves up to the top of the next turn's initiative.

The only real downside I've seen in the system is the issue where a character can net two turns in a row by being lowest on the initiative count in one round and the top of the count the next round. It's not bad on it's face, but there's abilities that end "At the start/end of your next turn" that kinda get shortened too much by such changes. But I guess it's just a matter of being aware of your initiative place and not using them when you'd get no benefit from them...

JBPuffin
2017-07-19, 12:59 AM
People like my idea! *glee!*

It does cause the Dragonborn to have a d10 option for their initiative modifier... but I should stress that it's an option: not a penalty.

Let's say you're playing a Dragonborn Rogue for character reasons. You've got a shortsword in your main hand and a dagger in your offhand so that you can control how fast you drop down the initiative order as a dual-wielder. But, through no fault of your own, you wind up with an initiative of 5! (+3 dex mod, rolled a 2). You're going to go almost last this round. And unless you roll a 5 or 6 on your d6 ('Cause you're using a shortsword for your attack action) you're gonna go last, again, next round.

So hit your Breath Weapon, instead, to hasten the wrap-around to 20. Average roll of 5.5 means you're probably gonna go on 19 or 20 next round!

And if you're a fighter-type character you're probably already swinging d8s, d10s, or 2d6. So throwing a d10 in there isn't going to be a big change.

Low level casters, though, with their d4 and d6 cantrip and 1st level spells will also be able to make great use of a d10 to catapult themselves up to the top of the next turn's initiative.

The only real downside I've seen in the system is the issue where a character can net two turns in a row by being lowest on the initiative count in one round and the top of the count the next round. It's not bad on it's face, but there's abilities that end "At the start/end of your next turn" that kinda get shortened too much by such changes. But I guess it's just a matter of being aware of your initiative place and not using them when you'd get no benefit from them...

I saw if after I made the comment :smalltongue:. Yeah, I'll totally use this next time I DM 5e - pooling together house rules for such a campaign right now...

Kaskus
2017-07-19, 09:17 PM
The only real downside I've seen in the system is the issue where a character can net two turns in a row by being lowest on the initiative count in one round and the top of the count the next round. It's not bad on it's face, but there's abilities that end "At the start/end of your next turn" that kinda get shortened too much by such changes. But I guess it's just a matter of being aware of your initiative place and not using them when you'd get no benefit from them...

Can't you just hold your action if persisting an effect is more advantageous than going early?

Steampunkette
2017-07-20, 09:02 AM
Can't you just hold your action if persisting an effect is more advantageous than going early?

I hadn't considered holding or delaying in this system... I need to figure out what effect they should have...

Steampunkette
2017-07-20, 10:29 AM
So... Holding/Delaying/Readying/Whatever you call it could have some seriously broken applications.

Normally when you delay you wind up taking the lower initiative spot. If someone was at Initiative 10 with no one below them they could, ostensibly, delay to initiative 1, then use even a dagger's d4 to put themselves at the top of the initiative order in the following round.

So Delaying could definitely be an issue...

So I think what I'll do is have Delay be a special edge case where Delaying puts you on the initiative you delayed to. Period. That's the "Action" you used that round, even if you use an action on the delayed turn that would cause you to roll a dice and change your initiative position.

So you could delay from 10 to 1 if you wanted, but you'll be on a 1 the following turn.

But if you're using it in a legitimate manner, keying your actions off someone lower in the initiative than you are, you maintain initiative advantage over them in the following round (Unless the initiative you delayed to is -really- low).

For example let's say you've got an initiative of 22 and delay until your enemy acts on initiative 16. As soon as your enemy acts your turn happens on 16, and your initiative next round becomes 16. But your enemy still has to roll the Action Die and lower their initiative since they took a normal action, putting them below you at 15 or lower.

Thoughts?

Lemmy
2017-07-20, 11:04 AM
Fun idea... But it seems like it'd be a pain in the ass to do it every round.

Personally, I really like the idea of changing initiative every round and/or based on your actions... But it slows down gameplay too much. If you have some sort of electronic initiative tracker, though... It works. :)

EDIT: One thing to keep in mind when talking about changing Initiative, though, is that there'll be moments when a characters gets two full actions before another gets to act. Not being able to move before eating two full-attacks can be rather frustrating...

robbie374
2017-07-26, 02:38 PM
A slight variation would be to reroll your initiative like normal at the start of every round, and then adjust according to this plan, rather than subtracting over and over from the same first roll every time until you roll around to 20 again.

As mentioned, if someone uses an ability that lasts until their next turn, and they end up going twice in a row, that can cause a problem. How's this rule: "When your turn creates an effect that lasts until your next turn, it stays in effect until after every other combatant has taken one turn or your next turn, whichever comes later."

Kaskus
2017-07-28, 12:29 AM
Of you are re-rolling each round, you could have the effect end on the initiative score they had when the effect started.

JBPuffin
2017-07-28, 11:08 PM
EDIT: One thing to keep in mind when talking about changing Initiative, though, is that there'll be moments when a characters gets two full actions before another gets to act. Not being able to move before eating two full-attacks can be rather frustrating...


As mentioned, if someone uses an ability that lasts until their next turn, and they end up going twice in a row, that can cause a problem.

These two sides of the same coin actually provide a sort of balance in and of itself; there are pros and cons to both sides being to go twice in a row. I think it's an important distinction from the original system (hence why it'll be my go-to the next time I DM :smallsmile:).