Theorycrafting a 20/20

[Finger6842]

We were discussing multiclassing with our DM last weekend and he confessed his desire to run a campaign where every character had 2 classes and both could reach level 20. The character would level 1 level at a time alternately in each class but would start at 1/1. PHB only so no UA, limit 2 feats per character which will be awarded at 5/5 and 15/15 and are not part of ASI's. Each ASI will award only 1 point instead of 2. Standard array.

My question for anyone interested is what class combination would you choose and why? What would the build look like? I am not sure we will ever actually try it but it's an interesting thought.

[Sigreid]

I'm thinking wizard/cleric would be the optimal abuse of power. Especially if you got spell slots as a normal multi-class.

[lunaticfringe]

Monk|Rogue. I really want play a Gestalt ShadowBuckler, I don't care about Evasion overlapping.

[Naanomi]

Warlock/Sorcerer would be a fun combo to me... fiend/red dragon being the most obvious fit (Ashardalon is my patron?)

Combining a fighter's four attacks with a source of extra damage might be good... is it wrong that I feel like Fighter/Barbarian might be a fun combo? Or Fighter/Moon Druid?

[SharkForce]

I'm thinking wizard/cleric would be the optimal abuse of power. Especially if you got spell slots as a normal multi-class.

honestly, i prefer sorcerer/cleric. cleric gives you a good selection of default spells, which pretty much removes the biggest drawback of sorcerer. meanwhile, sorcerer gives you a good selection for filling in the gaps.

(truthfully, anything + sorcerer sounds pretty danged good).

as another possibility, if your spell slots don't stack at all... go with warlock, since those function differently :)

[Rhedyn]

You should ask your DM if bonus asi are also +1

I would go eldritch Knight/abjur wizard. That gives you str, con, int, and wis saves plus high defenses and damage with one concentration spell to wreck the encounter (summons).

For feats I would take warcaster and then lucky.

Duelist style and sage background.

[Kane0]

I was part of a gestalt game like this. The party ended up being:

Warlock | Fighter
Warlock | Paladin
Warlock | Rogue
Warlock | Sorcerer
Warlock | Bard

One half had to be warlock for plot reasons, it turned out very well.

[Naanomi]

It is a good question; how can you use the Fighter/Rogue Bonus ASI... of you can use them as feats, it opens up a lot of ground (Battlemaster/Hunter seems like it could be a lot of fun)

Also... saves? Do you get both from each class?

[thoroughlyS]

Combining a fighter's four attacks with a source of extra damage might be good...
Fighter/Warlock is the way to go.

Start every fight with Hex
1-4 Attacks + Action Surge
???
Profit

It just gets better.

Pump Str/Dex and Con (don't need Charisma).
TWF for a bonus action attack.
War Caster for Eldritch Blast as an Opportunity Attack (up to 4 hits!)* + advantage on your godly concentration.
Battle Master for Riposte = reaction attack
Dual Wielder for 19 AC in Plate
Devil's Sight means you can drop darkness for advantage to all attacks.


*At least, according to Jeremy Crawford (http://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/05/08/can-warcaster-use-a-lvl-5-eldritch-blast-using-all-rays-against-the-provoking-creature/), your mileage may vary.

[Naanomi]

How is HP determined?

[coolAlias]

A martial build could be fun:

Half-Orc Barbarian (Any) | Fighter (Champion)

Great Axe + Half-Orc and Barbarian bonus dice on crit + Champion expanded crit range = ultimate critical hit monster. Of course he would also have the Great Weapon Master feat and the Great Weapon Fighting style.

It would be even sweeter if he could swap out of Champion after 3rd and start taking Rogue for some nasty sneak attack dice on top, but that's probably asking too much. ;)

[Vaz]

What you're looking for is called Gestalt. What that does is create a special kind of class that is made up of the abilities of two classes at once, and shouldn't be thought of as two "sides" of a build.

1 - Choose the highest Hit Dice, Hit Points at 1st level, and Hit Points at Higher levels of the two classes chosen
2 - You gain the Armor, Weapon, Tool, and Saving Throw Proficiencies of both classes, and may choose a number of skills to be proficient in equal to the total number from both classes, chosen from the combined list of class skills. For example, a Paladin/Ranger gets 5 class skills chosen from Animal Handling, Athletics, Insight, Intimidation, Investigation, Medicine, Nature, Perception, Persuasion, Religion, Stealth, and Survival.
3 - You determine your available spell slots by choosing only one of the classes at each level. However, you otherwise prepare spells as if each class was taken individually. A Wizard 10/Paladin 10 would be able to get up to 5th level spell slots, but you could not prepare 5th level Paladin spells unless they appear on the Wizard spell list also.
4 - Pact Magic and Mystic Arcanum is worked out separately from Spellcasting as per the normal rules for multiclassing. A Warlock 11/Sorcerer 11 would know spells as a Warlock 11 and a Sorcerer 11, and have the spell slots of a Sorcerer 11, and the spell slots of a Warlock 11 also. However, unlike the normal rules for Multiclassing, Pact Magic spells may not be cast out of non-Pact Magic spell slots, and vice versa.
5 - Extra Attack - you only gain the benefit of the Extra Attack ability once. You may choose which class uses this.
6 - ASI - you only gain an ASI a maximum of once per level; as normal, you may either add +2, or +1/+1, or select a feat, but a Fighter 4/Paladin 4 does not get 2 ASI's.

[Kane0]

The aforementioned Warlock | Fighter was my character actually, and it was bulit like so:

Fighter (EK) | Warlock (Fiend/Blade)

Great Weapon Fighting Style
Second Wind
Action Surge
Fighter Extra Attacks
Fighter Bonus ASIs
Bonded Weapon

Dark Ones Blessing
Dark Ones Own Luck
Fiendish Resilience
Fiendish Vigor Invocation
Lifedrinker Invocation
Devils Sight / Eldritch Sight / Witch Sight Invocations
Pact Weapon

Absorb Elements, Shield, Hex, Armor of Agathys, Darkness, Misty Step, Mirror Image, etc
Great Weapon Master & Tough Feat
Curseblade (Magic Greatsword)

Difficult to kill, even harder to ignore and almost entirely short rest based.

[Finger6842]

I was part of a gestalt game like this. The party ended up being:

Warlock | Fighter
Warlock | Paladin
Warlock | Rogue
Warlock | Sorcerer
Warlock | Bard

One half had to be warlock for plot reasons, it turned out very well.

Sounds very interesting, what was the general plot?

[Finger6842]

It is a good question; how can you use the Fighter/Rogue Bonus ASI... of you can use them as feats, it opens up a lot of ground (Battlemaster/Hunter seems like it could be a lot of fun)

Also... saves? Do you get both from each class?

We did discuss saves, choose one from each class, also no duplicate classes like lore bard valor bard, though I'm unsure why anyone would. We didn't discuss spell lists though, which I'm now seeing as a major omission.

[Naanomi]

You can also explore some more RP centric builds as well... a 'master of disguise/trickster' type... maybe a Half-Elf or Lightfoot Halfling Lore Bard/Feylock with the Actor and Luckg feats?

Also I will also double the sentiment that someone needs to be a Champion/Bearbarian crit fishing build... so much combined synergy and brutally challenging to take down

Exploring ways to use moon Druid features combined with other classes might be fun as well... open hand monk maybe?

If you can get the stats high enough; adding two stats to your attack spells via Dragon Sorcerer/Evoker would make for some Brutal blasting

If you are really looking to crack the balance of the game in half... Necromancer/Warlock utilizing its 'short rest Spell slots' with massive use of Animate Dead gets to be overwhelming pretty quick

[Finger6842]

How is HP determined?

1/2 of each level die plus con bonus up to 2 per class. Though he was looking at other options like primary class only.

[Dimers]

My question for anyone interested is what class combination would you choose and why? What would the build look like? I am not sure we will ever actually try it but it's an interesting thought.

As a team member, I'd feel like I should go for battlemaster fighter/mastermind rogue, with a shove-oriented build. Once you've hit your 1/turn Sneak Attack you can do lots of stuff to aid allies, and of course you have plentiful skill for things other than combat.

Fighter/Sorcerer focusing on self-buffs would be a combat beast.

But I'd most enjoy a druid/monk. Could go full-on hippie with Dreams/Tranquility, or even more unkillable with Moon/Long Death.

[Finger6842]

What you're looking for is called Gestalt. What that does is create a special kind of class that is made up of the abilities of two classes at once, and shouldn't be thought of as two "sides" of a build.

1 - Choose the highest Hit Dice, Hit Points at 1st level, and Hit Points at Higher levels of the two classes chosen
2 - You gain the Armor, Weapon, Tool, and Saving Throw Proficiencies of both classes, and may choose a number of skills to be proficient in equal to the total number from both classes, chosen from the combined list of class skills. For example, a Paladin/Ranger gets 5 class skills chosen from Animal Handling, Athletics, Insight, Intimidation, Investigation, Medicine, Nature, Perception, Persuasion, Religion, Stealth, and Survival.
3 - You determine your available spell slots by choosing only one of the classes at each level. However, you otherwise prepare spells as if each class was taken individually. A Wizard 10/Paladin 10 would be able to get up to 5th level spell slots, but you could not prepare 5th level Paladin spells unless they appear on the Wizard spell list also.
4 - Pact Magic and Mystic Arcanum is worked out separately from Spellcasting as per the normal rules for multiclassing. A Warlock 11/Sorcerer 11 would know spells as a Warlock 11 and a Sorcerer 11, and have the spell slots of a Sorcerer 11, and the spell slots of a Warlock 11 also. However, unlike the normal rules for Multiclassing, Pact Magic spells may not be cast out of non-Pact Magic spell slots, and vice versa.
5 - Extra Attack - you only gain the benefit of the Extra Attack ability once. You may choose which class uses this.
6 - ASI - you only gain an ASI a maximum of once per level; as normal, you may either add +2, or +1/+1, or select a feat, but a Fighter 4/Paladin 4 does not get 2 ASI's.

1 yes, that was his initial thought. Then he basically went for total divided by 2 + con.
2 yes.
3 we didn't discuss how this will work but I'd say your idea is likely. I do know we can't "sack" a classes spells to service the other class which is actually weaker than standard multi classing.
4 yes.
5 yes.
6 yes.

I'm guessing he already knew about Gestalt though I must confess I hadn't.

[Finger6842]

You can also explore some more RP centric builds as well... a 'master of disguise/trickster' type... maybe a Half-Elf or Lightfoot Halfling Lore Bard/Feylock with the Actor and Luckg feats?

Also I will also double the sentiment that someone needs to be a Champion/Bearbarian crit fishing build... so much combined synergy and brutally challenging to take down

Exploring ways to use moon Druid features combined with other classes might be fun as well... open hand monk maybe?

If you can get the stats high enough; adding two stats to your attack spells via Dragon Sorcerer/Evoker would make for some Brutal blasting

If you are really looking to crack the balance of the game in half... Necromancer/Warlock utilizing its 'short rest Spell slots' with massive use of Animate Dead gets to be overwhelming pretty quick

My first thought was Lore Bard / Moon Druid but it's hard to give up the 4 warrior actions.

[Finger6842]

As a team member, I'd feel like I should go for battlemaster fighter/mastermind rogue, with a shove-oriented build. Once you've hit your 1/turn Sneak Attack you can do lots of stuff to aid allies, and of course you have plentiful skill for things other than combat.

Fighter/Sorcerer focusing on self-buffs would be a combat beast.

But I'd most enjoy a druid/monk. Could go full-on hippie with Dreams/Tranquility, or even more unkillable with Moon/Long Death.

Of the 4 players the initial thoughts were druid/monk, priest/wizard, warlock/sorcerer and bard/druid for me. I was shocked not to see a barbarian/rogue but considering the DM seems to hate paladins I wasn't surprised no one chose that. Rangers are awesome from a RP perspective but I wasn't surprised no one went there.

[Finger6842]

The aforementioned Warlock | Fighter was my character actually, and it was bulit like so:

Fighter (EK) | Warlock (Fiend/Blade)

Great Weapon Fighting Style
Second Wind
Action Surge
Fighter Extra Attacks
Fighter Bonus ASIs
Bonded Weapon

Dark Ones Blessing
Dark Ones Own Luck
Fiendish Resilience
Fiendish Vigor Invocation
Lifedrinker Invocation
Devils Sight / Eldritch Sight / Witch Sight Invocations
Pact Weapon

Absorb Elements, Shield, Hex, Armor of Agathys, Darkness, Misty Step, Mirror Image, etc
Great Weapon Master & Tough Feat
Curseblade (Magic Greatsword)

Difficult to kill, even harder to ignore and almost entirely short rest based.

Sounds super strong, how was the RP?

[Zene]

Hmm.... what I'd play would really depend on how spell slot progression is handled. I'd love to play a high-level Illusionist mixed with another full caster class (Probably Sorcerer); but if progression is somehow slowed down or otherwise nerfed, then definitely wouldn't go that way. Maybe I'd try Warlock/Abjurer instead, as the separate spellcasting systems would prevent overlap.

For martials, Rogue(Any)/Totem Barbarian would be absolutely nuts.

[smcmike]

Barbarian/Rogue is definitely a fun martial with a ton of synergy - the ultimate action hero. More fun than the Barbarian/Champion, I think (though that could be fun too).

I think I would be tempted to build a Battlemaster/Lore Bard archer. Partially I just like the idea of hoarding a giant pile of inspiration/superiority dice at the table, but this combo also gives you a full range of spells and top end weapon damage.

[TheTeaMustFlow]

If Pact Magic slots are worked out separately but multiple normal casting classes are not, Warlock with Bard or Sorcerer seems an obvious choice.

Paladin/Cha Caster is also very good (like your classical sorcadin /pallock build on steroids), though if your DM dislikes them that could be a problem.

[Naanomi]

Too bad it is PHB only, Tempest Cleric + Storm Sorcerer has a lot of conceptual coolness to it

[Kane0]

Sounds very interesting, what was the general plot? Sounds super strong, how was the RP?

Plot was summed up as each PC died in their own way but were spared by a Vestige on their way to the afterlife. We got a second lease at life (registering as undead) in exchange for furthering the Vestige's interests, hopping around planes in search of fragments and artifacts of deities that continued its existence and gradually built its power, which in turn built ours.

My guy was a dragonborn mob enforcer but took the wrong side in an attempted coup and got backstabbed, I chose to go the full hexblade route (before it was a thing in UA) and played up my fraying conscience as we went on wierder and wierder adventures across the multiverse. By the end he was more than a little unhinged and completely addicted to the power trip of getting his my hands on deific power.

The specific gestalt rules we went by:
Select two classes (one must be warlock). No multiclassing.
HP: Determine from best of your classes
Saves: Choose one from each of your classes
Weapons/Armor: determine from best of your classes
Skills/Tools/Languages: Choose highest number from both classes out of combined pool available
Class features: Take from both classes at appropriate level.
- ASIs are as normal but do not double up at the same level (eg Paladin 4 / Warlock 4).
- Double ups of Extra attack feature instead function as a half-ASI (+1 to one stat of choice)
- Double ups of the spellcasting feature take the best progression of the two

[SharkForce]

Fighter/Warlock is the way to go.

Start every fight with Hex
1-4 Attacks + Action Surge
???
Profit

It just gets better.

Pump Str/Dex and Con (don't need Charisma).
TWF for a bonus action attack.
War Caster for Eldritch Blast as an Opportunity Attack (up to 4 hits!)* + advantage on your godly concentration.
Battle Master for Riposte = reaction attack
Dual Wielder for 19 AC in Plate
Devil's Sight means you can drop darkness for advantage to all attacks.


*At least, according to Jeremy Crawford (http://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/05/08/can-warcaster-use-a-lvl-5-eldritch-blast-using-all-rays-against-the-provoking-creature/), your mileage may vary.

- bonus action from TWF doesn't combine well with hex.
- if you have crap cha, how are you going to aim those opportunity attacks with eldritch blast (at disadvantage because you're in melee) that you're drooling over?
- you can't riposte and opportunity attack in the same round, so now you're not only competing for your bonus action, you're competing for your reaction as well.
- concentrating on darkness means you aren't concentrating on hex.

i mean, it certainly isn't terrible. but i do think you're overhyping it pretty badly...

[cZak]

I took advantage of a very thematic character in a Gestalt game run for our group
Half-elf Paladin OotA/ Archfey Sorcerer
Str>Chr>Con

Went the full S&B devastating combatant. Used Sorcerer spells for boosts to combat or defense.
Bend luck helped with smite spells. Wrathful smite kept bruisers back while we mopped up the mooks.
Blur on an AC21 made him very difficult to tag. The Shield spell would also help. And if they did hit, concentration was not an issue.
Twin Haste was very nice with the Fighter/Warlock for a team effort. Greater invis even more so.

I'd review the class guides.
Most have a section on multiclassing benefits. Check those out and expand how well they work when applied quicker

[thoroughlyS]

- bonus action from TWF doesn't combine well with hex.
For what reason?

- if you have crap cha, how are you going to aim those opportunity attacks with eldritch blast (at disadvantage because you're in melee) that you're drooling over?
Honestly, if you're taking War Caster anyway (which you are, for advantage to concentration), this seems like a decent gamble. You're trading one likely hit for multiple potential hits. This is not the basis of the build, just a fun bonus. Side note: "drooling over" is pretty hyperbolic, considering I mentioned it once.

- you can't riposte and opportunity attack in the same round, so now you're not only competing for your bonus action, you're competing for your reaction as well.
Or - to spin it a different way - you have another method of attacking off-turn. If you're drawing aggro, it's unlikely something will move away from you, but very likely that it'll attack (and potentially miss) you. Having a second reaction option isn't a bad thing.

The only bonus actions I've mentioned are Hex and TWF. You drop Hex on the first round, and TWF until something is dead. Yes, this is worse against hordes of enemies, but you're already a Fighter. Just hit everything twice anyway.

- concentrating on darkness means you aren't concentrating on hex.
You got me there. I forgot darkness was concentration.

[Naanomi]

It is way to MAD, but there is something conceptually pleasing about a Paladin/Monk... maybe Shadow Monk/Assassin for a real classic Ninja instead?

A Half-Elf Lore Bard/rogue who takes the skilled feat would be proficient in every skill.

[Sigreid]

Thinking some more Wiz/Land druid would give you two spell slot recovery abilities. Magic, magic everywhere!

[Dimers]

For what reason?

You need to spend bonus actions moving the Hex from one target to the next, so you can't TWF in the same round. Not a huge problem, but not ideal.

[JellyPooga]

AT Rogue/Lore Bard...sooooo much Expertise it's not funny, spellcaster on both sides of the coin, Sneak Attack for combat, BI for being a buddy, Cunning Action for doing more stuff, Uncanny Dodge and Evasion for toughness, Song of Rest and healing spells for being everyones favourite team-mate, Jack-of-all-Trades plus Reliable Talent for never failing a skill check. Ever.

[Finger6842]

The DM has provided an update to the rules. Spellcasting will be the full list of spells and slots for both caster classes. You can't use the spells from one in the slots of the other. So no converting or combining class slots. Basically keep the classes separate.

Hit points will be based on the best class but hit dice (for heal purposes) for both classes will be available.

Apparently we will actually start this campaign this weekend. My compatriots have chosen druid/monk, druid/fighter, and barbarian/rogue.

[coolAlias]

Apparently we will actually start this campaign this weekend. My compatriots have chosen druid/monk, druid/fighter, and barbarian/rogue.
In that case, have you considered something crazy like Wizard / Sorcerer? Would your DM allow you to use Metamagic on your Wizard spells? If so, go for it!

[bid]

Apparently we will actually start this campaign this weekend. My compatriots have chosen druid/monk, druid/fighter, and barbarian/rogue.
Barbarogue is neat.

Bard / paladin would complete the party nicely.

[Kane0]

So you have three beatsticks in your party (no cha builds) and you have double the Hit Die available for short rest healing.

Bard/Sorc? Buffs, debuffs and CC galore! Pinch some choice healing or other clerical spells using bard to round yourself out as the super-support character.

[JellyPooga]

Ooh...Assassin Rogue/Vengeance Paladin. Tasty flavour and truly redunkulous amounts of single-hit damage (especially on a surprise round...).

[Naanomi]

Warlock/Sorcerer; synergizes with the short rest Druid and fighter abilities

[coolAlias]

Bard/Sorc? Buffs, debuffs and CC galore! Pinch some choice healing or other clerical spells using bard to round yourself out as the super-support character.


Warlock/Sorcerer; synergizes with the short rest Druid and fighter abilities
Those are both good options, especially since they share the same casting stat. Good call on that.

[SharkForce]

So you have three beatsticks in your party (no cha builds) and you have double the Hit Die available for short rest healing.

Bard/Sorc? Buffs, debuffs and CC galore! Pinch some choice healing or other clerical spells using bard to round yourself out as the super-support character.

there are already 2 druids in the party. yeah, there's a decent chance they're moon druids, but still... he shouldn't need to grab that many healing spells...

[Bloodcloud]

Moon Druid/ Monk Open hand = Kung-fu panda... But it is much funnier to go shadow monk. A teleporting mammot is just... hard to pass.

More seriously, there's quite a few things to build around. Bear Barbarian/ assassin rogue makes for a perfect grapple master (advantage from rage, expertise from rogue), grabbing ennemy and dragging them to the shadows while shanking them with sneak attack. You get perma advantage on attack (rogues get immune to disadvantage, reckless attack now has no drawback). Advantage on initiative helps getting those assassinate auto crit, who are even more damaging from barb. Plus, wis/dex/con save proficiency. Ho and uncanny dodge from rogue stack with rage resistance. Quite a lot of synergy.

I think in term of raw power, it's hard to beat Dragon Sorcerer 18 - Ftr 2 on one side and Infernal Balde Warlock 14 - Pal 6 on the other. You get all armor and weapon, extra attack, action surge, quicken spell, eldritch blast/hex, smites, cha on all save and a d10 to add to them 1/short rest. Hp is pretty great and you get temp hp on kills. All around great fundamentals and about as much action economy breaking as you can get.

The other great thing would be Eldritch knight 14 - Pal 6 /Dragon sorc 17 - Infernal Tome Warlock 3. Again, big breaking of the action economy, lots of attacks with smites and quickened spells and eldritch blast and all rituals, but mostly disadvantage on spell saving throw for all monster. Now that is fun.

[Byke]

I was part of a gestalt game like this. The party ended up being:

Warlock | Fighter
Warlock | Paladin
Warlock | Rogue
Warlock | Sorcerer
Warlock | Bard

One half had to be warlock for plot reasons, it turned out very well.

We also had a game like this. I was DMing Way of the wicked and *****SPOILER******

When it came to signing the contract with Asmodeus, I was inspired to try a Warlock Gestalt....Suffice it to say I had to triple the encounters or make them all Deadly to keep up with them after that. There favorite attack was called Tactic #1 ...Everyone Fireball...it was a nightmare to deal with :)

Tactic #2 was chain Hurtle through Hell.....

[Finger6842]

I think in term of raw power, it's hard to beat Dragon Sorcerer 18 - Ftr 2 on one side and Infernal Balde Warlock 14 - Pal 6 on the other. You get all armor and weapon, extra attack, action surge, quicken spell, eldritch blast/hex, smites, cha on all save and a d10 to add to them 1/short rest. Hp is pretty great and you get temp hp on kills. All around great fundamentals and about as much action economy breaking as you can get.

The other great thing would be Eldritch knight 14 - Pal 6 /Dragon sorc 17 - Infernal Tome Warlock 3. Again, big breaking of the action economy, lots of attacks with smites and quickened spells and eldritch blast and all rituals, but mostly disadvantage on spell saving throw for all monster. Now that is fun.

Sadly no multiple multiclass, I asked about 18 lock 18 bard 2 war 2 rog or the like and got 2 classes only total. I'm a bit worried by dual caster based on low HP and AC.

[Byke]

Sadly no multiple multiclass, I asked about 18 lock 18 bard 2 war 2 rog or the like and got 2 classes only total. I'm a bit worried by dual caster based on low HP and AC.


Paladin / Full Caster is the way I would go.....Sorcerer for Meta Magic shenanigans.

[Finger6842]

Barbarogue is neat.

Bard / paladin would complete the party nicely.

Bard with Paladin kind of gimps the Necromancy line of spells for Bard doesn't it?

[strangebloke]

paladin sorcerer. Yes, yes, I know, it's nothing new, but it is incredibly overpowered and flavorful.

You remove the biggest weaknesses of the sorcadin. You don't have to wait a long time for your build to come online, you don't need to burn a feat on resilient: Constitution, and while you can still run out of resources on a long adventuring day... you're not going to run out very quickly.

Draconic Sorc/Oath of the Crown, s&b

You're a blessed knight who is descended from dragons. You've devoted your life to the realm. Friends call you Arthur Pendragon.

Alternately...

Draconic Sorc/Oath of Vengeance, GWM.

You're a blessed knight who is descended from dragons, but your family was slaughtered by *evil organization* you are now a silent guardian, a watchful protector, a dark knight.

Go forth and kick butt.

[Khrysaes]

Honestly you could take most multiclass builds and make them stronger.

I saw

Half orc Fighter(Champion//Barbarian(Any) mentioned for a crit beast.

Fighter(EK)//Warlock(Fiend) was also mentioned, although in a melee sense, going with a heavy crossbow would also work with Eldritch blast and the 7th level EK ability. You could do both, one for melee and one for ranged.

Honestly the Warlock is a great pick as a secondary class for many of the combinations.

Paladin//Warlock, especially Oathbreaker Paladin, would be good for fueling smites with Short rest slots.

Paladin//Sorcerer or Bard for more and higher level slots.

Paladin//Champion for more crits, on which to use smites.

Sorcerer//Warlock for short rest fueling of sorcery points.

EK//Wizard for the normal multiclass capabilities of this, but better.

Champion//Rogue for more crits on a sneak attack.

Cleric or Druid//Any for more healing.

Cleric//Any for heavy armor proficiency.

Monk//Druid if your monk features are retained in Animal Form, and can be used in them.

Warlock//Any for hex and dark vision.

Fighter//Any for 4 attacks in an action, and action surge.

Monk//Rogue, ultimate ninja.

Rogue//Wizard or Warlock, get the familiar and use it to get advantage for easier sneak attacks, not to mention the spells and other benefits.

With the limit on Feats, Variant Human if it is allowed, while strong to begin with, may be stronger than most races, as some of the benefits of the races are less valuable with gestalt. Such as dwarven Heavy Armor, or High elf cantrip, and some other things.

I am sure there are other combos that would be good.

I am not sure if Ranger would be.. A Fighter//Druid or Rogue//Druid would basically be a ranger, but better in a lot of aspects than it, more so than they are already.

To bad it is PHB only, so many other things present themselves with the other published works, not to mention UA, its not like it will be balanced anyways. I could Imagine an Oathbreaker//Hexblade. Max Charisma. Use charisma for attack, damage(hexblade), damage(oathbreaker), damage(lifedrinker), save(paladin), casting, other things.

Or an elf or Half Elf Champion//Barbarian, Rogue, Paladin or Smite Weapon Warlock, with Elven Accuracy. 18-20 Crit Range, with 3 dice on advantage and all the damage boosts :).

[Twizzly513]

I once did this in a game. I went Barbarian|Bard
I was the bardbarian.
It was a mostly comedy campaign. He was a tiefling, his weapon was a magically-loud guitar with axe heads on the bottom (counted as spell focus and greataxe). I had large speakers behind me that I would animate to fight with me. It wasn't the most optimized probably but he was so badass.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/uN1V3jOBKpYUveq5cuaJsOYFp5U58t8w_HJdQVElVZE4oaBt82 ga6t8BF6pAOesJyQNukBgMW85mJXs=w1680-h920-rw

Honestly though if I did this, I'd probably go Lore Bard|Enchantment Wizard to be the best talker and you could also be a good support for your team, having bard support and the ability to be a wizard god (as termed by TreantMonk). Or Lore Bard|Rogue to be the ultimate skill monkey. Never fail on a single check ever again.

[Aett_Thorn]

Be a Barbarian/Monk, and be able to zip around the battlefield like a bunny on crack.

A Trickery Cleric/Rogue might be fun as well, since you get rid of one of the main weaknesses of the Cleric by actually having decent finesse weapons to use. Plus, you can almost constantly grant yourself advantage thanks to your shadow.


However, given the current part makeup, it seems like you either need good Int or Cha support to round out the skills. As such, I would say Go Half-Elf Wizard/Paladin Combo. Why Wiz instead of Sorc? Because if you go Evoker Wizard, you can drop Fireballs right on top of your mostly melee party and still be safe. Just use the Cha bonus for skills and the auras, but mainly build up Str/Dex and Int.


It's too bad that you're PHB only, otherwise an Arcane Trickster/Bladesinger would be one hell of a combo here. Especially since your group is Wisdom heavy, but lacking good Int support.

[Theodoxus]

Bard with Paladin kind of gimps the Necromancy line of spells for Bard doesn't it?

Does bard get necromancy? Regardless, if you go Oathbreaker, you get amazing synergy with necromancy... So, I guess it depends on if you're allowed Oathbreaker or not - not being PhB... but it is DMG, so maybe?

[Steampunkette]

Half-Orc Hexblade Warlock/Barbarian (Any)

Congratulations: You're now ridiculously overpowered.

Yeah, I know. You can't cast spells or concentrate on them while raging. You don't NEED to. Just put Armor of Agathys on for 25 temporary HP that deals 25 damage to anyone that hits you. Then Rage so you reduce all incoming damage by half, extending the amount of times someone takes 25 damage for having the Temerity to hit you.

Swing your Greataxe around at your Hexblade Curse target for a 19-20 crit that deals 3d12 at level 1 and maxes out at 5d12 at level 17. Make sure to use Reckless Attack to gain advantage on every swing! And add your Proficiency Bonus to the damage on top of your Barbarian Rage damage.

And hey, if you went Frenzy Barb you can swing 3 times a round, rolling twice per attack, with 19-20 for the crit! And after level 14 when someone takes 25 damage for hitting you, you can add insult to injury by flinging another Reckless Attack as a Retaliation reaction.

Pact of the Blade? Could be nice if you nab yourself a Headband of Charisma or something similar so you can add another +1 to +4 damage to your individual attacks, but don't bother with the Extra Attack invocation. And hey! When you -do- need to do some Ranged Damage, whip out Eldritch Blast for up to 4d10 (plus cha) damage!

And hey, if you encounter an obstacle you can't crush with your bare hands, you've got a handful of spells to pull out to circumvent it.


Half-Orc Champion Fighter/Frenzied Barbarian

18-20 crit range, 5 attacks on your turn, 9 when you action surge, reckless attack, reaction attack... You become a Blender.

[Naanomi]

It is always funny to read recommendations of Hexblade and Bladesinger when the OP was clear it was PHB only...

Although I'm shocked no one in the party went with Champion/Barbarian; your front line looks crowded already... this leans me away from recommending a Paladin/Bard or Paladin/Sorcerer... lightfoot halfling (to maneuver through all those Druids) warlock/sorcerer; either fiend/red dragon for the AoE blastiness... or wild/fey trickster type. Either way, take the Tome because there is not a lot of ritual casting in that party yet

[Steampunkette]

In that case, I stand by Champion-Berserker.

Though since the group needs more casters, Bardlock would be awesome.

Or Roguelock.

Or Sorcerer-rogue.

Wizardlock would also be great, just focus on one "Side" for anything requiring a save or attack roll.

Fighter-Bard could be amazing. You could even go Eldritch Knight for extra spells, though between Bardic Inspiration and Battlemastery you could do an AMAZING Knight-Commander build. Give out orders, inspire your allies, and throw down Blessings since they're pretty much all going to be melee.

[Rhedyn]

Dex AT/EK?

With war magic, you can cast a spell and sneak attack.

[SharkForce]

In that case, I stand by Champion-Berserker.

Though since the group needs more casters, Bardlock would be awesome.

Or Roguelock.

Or Sorcerer-rogue.

Wizardlock would also be great, just focus on one "Side" for anything requiring a save or attack roll.

Fighter-Bard could be amazing. You could even go Eldritch Knight for extra spells, though between Bardic Inspiration and Battlemastery you could do an AMAZING Knight-Commander build. Give out orders, inspire your allies, and throw down Blessings since they're pretty much all going to be melee.

sorcerer/rogue sounds pretty hilarious. go arcane trickster, get into stealth, and give everyone disadvantage on saving throws... it's like heighten, only dozens of times better (doesn't cost a metamagic, doesn't cost a ton of sorcery points, works on all targets not just one... still doesn't work on recurring saves, but apart from that you're looking good). and rogue does offer some nice stuff for any caster; evasion, good dex saves, light armour means you don't need to learn mage armour (and you're one feat away from medium + shield if you want), it removes the need for a few utility spells, expertise and reliable talent in social skills can be hilarious, you get increased mobility (and you can hide extremely well), you don't need damage cantrips (although with warcaster and one of the weapon cantrips you'd have one heck of an opportunity attack), you'll eventually pick up wisdom saves without spending a feat on it... too bad you can't do something like a rogue/monk split combined with sorcerer, but you're still looking at some pretty good synergy imo. the combination of being hidden while casting really nasty debuff spells sounds pretty nice to me...

[Naanomi]

Wizardlock would also be great, just focus on one "Side" for anything requiring a save or attack roll.
This is a good route; a Necromancer/Warlock could maintain an impressive legion of skeletons with all those short-rest slots available

[malachi]

AT / EK with a bow lets you make 4 attacks + sneak attack, and you get a decent chunk of spells (at lvl 20, you'll have 8x lvl 1, 6x lv l2, 6x lvl 3, 2x lvl 4).
Any Rogue / Valor bard gets you 2 attacks + sneak attack OR one bard Spell + Sneak attack each turn (costing your bonus action, you you won't be able to disengage / hide after doing this)
EK / Wizard gets you full spellcasting plus it allows you to toss out disadvantage against your spells, and allows you to cast spells on the same turn you attack.
Any two full casters (assuming you have the stats to make it work) is going to give you lots of power and utility.

[Vorpalchicken]

To best help your group, I'd go cleric/wizard. If your going to level 20, nothing tops a wizard's spells and cleric helps with the defense that the wizard is lacking. At top level, you have potentially three 9th level spells with divine Intervention. Nature or Healing might be a good domain. For a tradition, divination is so good. But others are nice too.

I've never been too impressed with sorcerers. For all their metamagic it mostly just amounts to an extra cantrip each round. (Unless you are paired with a non caster class- then they're okay. But they still have the lamest spell selection)

Arcane Trickster also is wonderful with a full caster for reasons mentioned above.

[Ovarwa]

Hi,

Monk/Moon Druid: Wisdom-based AC in animal form. Higher movement rates, for slower critters. But make sure you get agreement about how unarmed attacks work for you. Tiger form kung fu in tiger form.

Paladin/Warlock: It's great as a regular multiclass and even better here. Half-casting plus full warlock casting. Are you a bladelock, with +Cha to damage at level 12 and no need to take the 2nd attack invocation? Or are you a tomelock who casts Shillelagh to use Cha for everything? Or are you a chainlock, with both familiar *and* paladin's mount? (Less fond of bladelock for this, because the extra synergy doesn't kick in until level 12.)

Sorcerer/Warlock or Bard/Warlock: Full charisma spellcasting, plus full warlock casting. Bard for super versatility. Sorcerer for Con-proficiency and metamagic. Wish either way.

Rogue/Class with Second Attack: Rogues are meant to work with only one attack, so getting a second attack from somewhere is tremendous. Battlemaster makes sure your attack hits. Ranger is pretty good too. Assassin/bladelock. And more.

Spellcaster/Spellcaster isn't so good, because spell slots don't combine in your system.

LoreBard/Fighter using spell secrets is simply a better ranger. Abjurer/Martial is very tanky.

You'll have lots of ASIs to raise stats, but still not want to be too MAD, if only because you don't get them all at once. With only two feats, you'll need to be careful, and Moon Druids are not happy, since the only stat they care about is Wisdom.


Anyway,

Ken

[Vorpalchicken]

Spellcaster/Spellcaster isn't so good, because spell slots don't combine in your system.



As I understand the OP, each class has its separate own spell slots- ie combining two full caster classes will get double total slots. Which would make a double full caster pretty spectacular IMHO.

[SharkForce]

To best help your group, I'd go cleric/wizard. If your going to level 20, nothing tops a wizard's spells and cleric helps with the defense that the wizard is lacking. At top level, you have potentially three 9th level spells with divine Intervention. Nature or Healing might be a good domain. For a tradition, divination is so good. But others are nice too.

I've never been too impressed with sorcerers. For all their metamagic it mostly just amounts to an extra cantrip each round. (Unless you are paired with a non caster class- then they're okay. But they still have the lamest spell selection)

Arcane Trickster also is wonderful with a full caster for reasons mentioned above.

you've clearly played only with people who like quicken spell. also, specifically people who like quicken spell and don't know how to get the most out of it.

now, quicken spell is not bad, but there are some really dirty tricks you can pull with a sorcerer.

for example, subtle spell has a variety of niche uses that are hard to duplicate; yeah, everyone thinks about when you're tied up and gagged, and it does work for that, but have you considered that it works underwater? in a silence spell? when you're climbing and need to keep your hands on your handholds? when you're trying to use suggestion on a merchant who has guards? when someone is trying to counterspell you? when you're trying to get the drop on someone who can see you by getting a spell out before they know what's happening?

careful spell allows you to lay down area of effect crowd control that doesn't risk hitting your party. and i don't mean just stuff like fear, where you cast the spell and then the area is gone, i mean you can cast a web or a stinking cloud and your party can hang out inside it all day without ever risking failing a save. any enemy melee that wants to play will need to come in themselves.

twin can allow you to double up on a variety of interesting buff spells (most of the debuff spells already have multitargeting options, but many buffs do not. and even with debuffs, there are some interesting ones to consider... like phantasmal force, suggestion, levitate, etc). haste is a popular spell to twin, and polymorph at the levels you can first get it is crazy with twin spell. greater invisibility is another good one.

heighten i feel is extremely expensive, but it is also one of the few ways to get easy access to forcing disadvantage on an enemy's saving throws. it can cancel out magic resistance, and it works exceptionally well with spells like banishment, where a failed save typically means you're gone for the duration.

and quicken spell, well... if you've only seen bonus cantrips, you've never seen it used to full potential. remember, casting a spell is not the same as using a spell like sunbeam or eyebite or telekinesis.

now, when you pair that with the spell list of another class and an additional set of spells prepared/known/whatever, there can be other interesting options as well. the disadvantage of having a limited spell list and spells known gets reduced a lot when you can pair sorcerer with a second spellcasting class too.

sorcerer goes extremely well with other spellcasters :)

[Finger6842]

you've clearly played only with people who like quicken spell. also, specifically people who like quicken spell and don't know how to get the most out of it.

now, quicken spell is not bad, but there are some really dirty tricks you can pull with a sorcerer.

for example, subtle spell has a variety of niche uses that are hard to duplicate; yeah, everyone thinks about when you're tied up and gagged, and it does work for that, but have you considered that it works underwater? in a silence spell? when you're climbing and need to keep your hands on your handholds? when you're trying to use suggestion on a merchant who has guards? when someone is trying to counterspell you? when you're trying to get the drop on someone who can see you by getting a spell out before they know what's happening?

careful spell allows you to lay down area of effect crowd control that doesn't risk hitting your party. and i don't mean just stuff like fear, where you cast the spell and then the area is gone, i mean you can cast a web or a stinking cloud and your party can hang out inside it all day without ever risking failing a save. any enemy melee that wants to play will need to come in themselves.

twin can allow you to double up on a variety of interesting buff spells (most of the debuff spells already have multitargeting options, but many buffs do not. and even with debuffs, there are some interesting ones to consider... like phantasmal force, suggestion, levitate, etc). haste is a popular spell to twin, and polymorph at the levels you can first get it is crazy with twin spell. greater invisibility is another good one.

heighten i feel is extremely expensive, but it is also one of the few ways to get easy access to forcing disadvantage on an enemy's saving throws. it can cancel out magic resistance, and it works exceptionally well with spells like banishment, where a failed save typically means you're gone for the duration.

and quicken spell, well... if you've only seen bonus cantrips, you've never seen it used to full potential. remember, casting a spell is not the same as using a spell like sunbeam or eyebite or telekinesis.

now, when you pair that with the spell list of another class and an additional set of spells prepared/known/whatever, there can be other interesting options as well. the disadvantage of having a limited spell list and spells known gets reduced a lot when you can pair sorcerer with a second spellcasting class too.

sorcerer goes extremely well with other spellcasters :)

I'm not sure if I would be allowed to twin spells from another class list but I will ask. I'm definitely leaning toward a caster of some type since we don't seem to have one, maybe bard/sorcerer with 8 spells from the other lists. I can have an aura from paladin etc. Still worried about ac and hit die though, will be pretty low comparatively without some kind of tank levels

[Thrasher92]

I think I would like to try out a Swashbuckler Rogue/ Battlemaster Fighter.

I would be a Dexterity based fighter, with dueling as my fighting style. I would be able to give myself advantage with Feint and sneak attack with 10d6 and use precise strike often to ensure I would hit.

At least it would be a fun idea, I would be the ultimate rapier wielding pirate swashbuckler.

[SharkForce]

I'm not sure if I would be allowed to twin spells from another class list but I will ask. I'm definitely leaning toward a caster of some type since we don't seem to have one, maybe bard/sorcerer with 8 spells from the other lists. I can have an aura from paladin etc. Still worried about ac and hit die though, will be pretty low comparatively without some kind of tank levels

low HP as compared to what? hit die doesn't make the huge difference you'd think it does from the way people talk about it. a fighter isn't a "tank" because of 2 extra HP per level on average over a non-tank wizard. obviously, more HP is better, but HD is not going to be the difference between living and dying.

as to AC... it doesn't need to be all that low. mage armour (or draconic sorcerer origin, which could help some with HP as well) will give you some protection, but ultimately, you've got 3 front liners so far from what i recall. you have plenty of people to hide behind. and since you'll have the shield spell and they won't, it may even feel like they're the ones with low AC some of the time :P and as a lore bard, you'll be able to use cutting words to reduce the effectiveness of individual attacks, and if you can get your hands on magical light armour that can work too.

also, it is entirely possible to upgrade to medium armour + shield and focus con as your second attribute. obviously, you don't have a ton of feats to work with since you only get 2, but medium armour + shield is just one feat away, and it means you don't need high dex. heck, if you start with variant human (if that's allowed), you could have medium armour + shield as soon as you can afford it, which is probably about as good AC as anyone in your group is likely to have.

[Nifft]

The DM has provided an update to the rules. Spellcasting will be the full list of spells and slots for both caster classes. You can't use the spells from one in the slots of the other. So no converting or combining class slots. Basically keep the classes separate.

Hit points will be based on the best class but hit dice (for heal purposes) for both classes will be available.

Apparently we will actually start this campaign this weekend. My compatriots have chosen druid/monk, druid/fighter, and barbarian/rogue.

Wizard (Evoker) / Cleric (Tempest).

Channel Divinity to deal maximum damage on a Lightning or Thunder spell (which Wizards get).

Booming Blade (Wizard cantrip from SCAG) + Thunderstrike (Cleric domain feature) => hit to push + lockdown, or deal extra damage.

Divine Strike stacks nicely with SCAG weapon attack cantrips.

== == ==

You could also go Wizard (Abjurer) / Cleric (Life), and be the "life-preserver". The toughness you get from your Abjuration Ward is just your inherent extra vitality.

Or even Wizard (Diviner) / Cleric (Knowledge), and be a total know-it-all.

[Finger6842]

low HP as compared to what? hit die doesn't make the huge difference you'd think it does from the way people talk about it. a fighter isn't a "tank" because of 2 extra HP per level on average over a non-tank wizard. obviously, more HP is better, but HD is not going to be the difference between living and dying.

as to AC... it doesn't need to be all that low. mage armour (or draconic sorcerer origin, which could help some with HP as well) will give you some protection, but ultimately, you've got 3 front liners so far from what i recall. you have plenty of people to hide behind. and since you'll have the shield spell and they won't, it may even feel like they're the ones with low AC some of the time :P and as a lore bard, you'll be able to use cutting words to reduce the effectiveness of individual attacks, and if you can get your hands on magical light armour that can work too.

also, it is entirely possible to upgrade to medium armour + shield and focus con as your second attribute. obviously, you don't have a ton of feats to work with since you only get 2, but medium armour + shield is just one feat away, and it means you don't need high dex. heck, if you start with variant human (if that's allowed), you could have medium armour + shield as soon as you can afford it, which is probably about as good AC as anyone in your group is likely to have.

Variant Human is off limits but the shield spell will help a ton I'm sure. I'm not overly concerned about low ac or low hp but both strikes me as a concern, still, a feat will do the trick.

[Zene]

Another gestalt thread got me thinking. If I were to play this, One of my top choices would be Fighter (probably EK) / Nature Cleric, tanking all the way. Thorn whip. Plant Growth with Spirit Guardians. Elemental Damage Absorption. Death Ward.

Or, maybe, Lore Bard and Arcana Cleric, for the ultimate cross-class caster. Full cleric spell list, full bard spell list, poach 8 spells from any list, and poach another 4 high-level spells from the wizard list at 17. Plus Divine Intervention.

[Finger6842]

Another gestalt thread got me thinking. If I were to play this, One of my top choices would be Fighter (probably EK) / Nature Cleric, tanking all the way. Thorn whip. Plant Growth with Spirit Guardians. Elemental Damage Absorption. Death Ward.

Or, maybe, Lore Bard and Arcana Cleric, for the ultimate cross-class caster. Full cleric spell list, full bard spell list, poach 8 spells from any list, and poach another 4 high-level spells from the wizard list at 17. Plus Divine Intervention.

Yes, I'm a huge fan of Lore Bards and play them unless I know the campaign will require something the party lacks. Magical Secrets is my favorite skill in the game, it's agony choosing just 2 spells from such a large list of great spells and lets you supplement any roll missing from the party (Except tank).