Soulknife + Psychic Warrior gestalt. How good would this be in E6? (3.5e)

[Thomeyis]

Hey everyone. I'm about to start up an E6 game and I've got a player who took an interest in the Soulknife class. Problem is, most of the rest of the party wants to play things that are pretty good straight out of the box (So far I've got a Swordsage, a PF Witch, and a Swift Hunter scout/ranger). I never want to tell people they can't do something if the character concept appeals to them, even if the crunch sucks, so I thought a buff was in order. I was considering just letting the player straight-up Gestalt the psychic warrior and soulknife as a single class. I know the Soulbound Weapon/Hidden Talent ACFs exist which sort of bridge the gap between the two, but they don't really seem to pack too much punch, especially in E6. Psychic Warrior isn't exactly a powerhouse considering all of its class features are feats which will be coming in spades later in the campaign anyway. Adding soulknife to psychic warrior gives a few power points, a decent scaling weapon, some (bad) bonus damage, a (bad) ranged option, and an HP boost, none of which seem to be game-breaking. Are there any tricks or game-breaking combos with this gestalt that I should be looking out for?

[Psyren]

I know the Soulbound Weapon/Hidden Talent ACFs exist which sort of bridge the gap between the two, but they don't really seem to pack too much punch, especially in E6. Psychic Warrior isn't exactly a powerhouse considering all of its class features are feats which will be coming in spades later in the campaign anyway.

I disagree - Psionic characters can never have enough feats, even in E6. Whether its Expanded Knowledge, Psionic Talent, Open Minded, you have tons of stuff to choose from before you fall back on Toughness and the like. You're better off than a lot of E6 characters I'd say. You can certainly gestalt them if you feel like, but imo you should be fine as a Soulbound Weapon psywar.

[DEMON]

Actually, PsyWar's class features aren't just the bonus feats - their actual class features are their powers (and power points).

In E6 the 6 levels of PsyWar would net you 3 bonus feats, 2 of which would be used for the soulbound weapon ACF.

The 3rd bonus feat comes with 2 more powers and 6 power points attached (assuming you go all the way to level 6) and would also qualify you for a capstone feat (I suggest a 3rd level power and a couple more power points).

Suggestin playing a PsyWar with an ACF, when a player wants to play a Soulknife might fall on deaf ears, but then again, SK is possibly the worst base class in game (depending on which way the SK vs CW Sam goes), so there's that.

And if you really feel like throwing the PsyWar another bone, making their capstone a virtual 6 BAB (similar to Fighter's capstone of 8-BAB-but-not-really), would also go a long way... this suggestion would actually apply to SK as well, if you can't convince your player to switch his preferences from SK to PW.

[Hackulator]

In my post about Soulknife being the worst class in the game, on thing I said was that Soulknife and Psychic Warrior should just be one gestalt class, so yeah, I think that would be fine. You could also just gestalt it with fighter. With full BAB, heavy armor and all those feats, it will actually be a playable class.

[Thomeyis]

I disagree - Psionic characters can never have enough feats, even in E6. Whether its Expanded Knowledge, Psionic Talent, Open Minded, you have tons of stuff to choose from before you fall back on Toughness and the like. You're better off than a lot of E6 characters I'd say. You can certainly gestalt them if you feel like, but imo you should be fine as a Soulbound Weapon psywar.

Here's my problem with Soulbound weapon: It just plain stinks compared to a real mind blade. You have to spend a standard action and a power point to call your weapon for 1 minute/level. That means in any fight where you don't have the jump on someone, you waste the first round just "drawing" your weapon. If you want the +1 weapon enhancement ability, that's 6pp. You'll go through your whole power point reserve in 4 encounters just summoning your weapon. Soulknife also has a better skill list which allows the character to do something outside of combat.

It's also worth noting that this game is going to have a lot of custom feats, including one that increases base attack bonus up to a maximum of +6. So changing BAB to full isn't really necessary here.

[Psyren]

Linked Synchronicity exists - and since custom feats are on the table, why not one that lets you Call Weaponry as a swift or move action then?

Obviously you can allow that player to gestalt if you want, but it seems unnecessary, especially since nobody else is doing so.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Gestalting with Soulknife should be fine, yeah. Maybe trade some or all of the bonus feats if you're worried about balance. Though that's probably not super-relevant; your Soulblade is going to be flat-out inferior to other options for most of your career.

Still, I'd talk to the player, see what part of Soulknife they're actually interested in. Then find a more attractive way to make it work. They might not want the complexity of a caster-type character. (In which case, gestalting with Rogue or something is probably better)


Here's my problem with Soulbound weapon: It just plain stinks compared to a real mind blade. You have to spend a standard action and a power point to call your weapon for 1 minute/level. That means in any fight where you don't have the jump on someone, you waste the first round just "drawing" your weapon. If you want the +1 weapon enhancement ability, that's 6pp. You'll go through your whole power point reserve in 4 encounters just summoning your weapon. Soulknife also has a better skill list which allows the character to do something outside of combat.

It's also worth noting that this game is going to have a lot of custom feats, including one that increases base attack bonus up to a maximum of +6. So changing BAB to full isn't really necessary here.
True. Better to spend the two feats on Shape Soulmeld (Incarnate Weapon) and Bonus Essentia; That'll also get you a magically-produced +2 weapon.

[lord_khaine]

Well.. it isnt like giving the psychic warrior all the soulblades soulblade abilities would make it overpowered.

Gestalting it might be a bit much though, since the Soulknife has a superior chassis. I dont think the psychic warrior needs an upgrade to skills, HD and saves.
Its already a tier 3 class that playes well with the other tier 3 classes. But i dont think that will change if just the mindblade ability is added.

[johnbragg]

Looking at the Soulknife class, there really isn't much there. Is the player open to just taking Mind blade as a feat, and have the abilities of some other (cough better) class? (Rogue, PsyWar, ooh Psychic Rogue?) Maybe key the psychic strike damage to ECL, not Soulknife level?

Find out if the player is stuck on the Soulknife class, or on just having the Mind Blade ability.

[Nifft]

So, a full gestalt would look like...

HD: d10 (instead of PsyWar d8)

BAB: 3/4 (same for both)

Saves: all good (Fort from PsyWar; Ref and Will from Soulknife)

Skills: 4+Int (instead of PsyWar 2+Int)
- skills only from PsyWar: Ride, Search, Swim.
- Skills only from Soulknife: Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Spot, Tumble.
- Skills that both get: Autohypnosis, Concentration, Jump, Climb, Knowledge (psionics).

IMHO the most important skills are Autohypnosis and Concentration.


Class Feature Progression

Level 1:
* Mindblade
* Feats: Weapon Focus (mindblade), bonus PsyWar feat
* L1 PsyWar power

Level 2:
* Throw Mindblade
* Feat: bonus PsyWar feat
* L1 PsyWar power

Level 3:
* Psychic strike +1d8
* L1 PsyWar power

Level 4:
* +1 Mindblade
* L2 PsyWar power

Level 5:
* Free draw, shape mind blade
* Feat: bonus PsyWar feat
* L2 PsyWar power

Level 6:
* Mind blade enhancement +1
* Feat: Speed of Thought
* L2 PsyWar power


... yeah this isn't too bad, and I'd allow it in a game with stronger classes like the Swordsage.

But you could also eliminate some (or all) of the gestalt advantages while keeping the class feature progression the same, or otherwise muck with things.

[Yogibear41]

Depends on the E6 and how long it lasts, but in the one I played in it was high enough magic that the soul knife's equivalent of a +2 weapon would be waaaaay outclassed after a decent amount of time at 6th level.

Technically speaking its possible to get +3, maybe even +4 weapons at level 6, and thats not including adding on things like flaming, etc.

They have no way to ever upgrade there weapon.

Sure they can spend the money on other stuff, but if your main thing is hitting something with a sword, you generally want a pretty darn good sword.

[ExLibrisMortis]

I presume there'd be an E6 feat for soulknives that increases the mind blade's enhancement bonus, and one that increases your maximum enhancement by 1. Even if you can take each feat only once, that's a pretty good deal, giving you a +2 collision weapon with some (minor) advantages. Bladewind and Multiple Throw are decent abilities to grant with feats, making the mind blade a bit better as well.

A psionic class in E6 would probably want to take Psionic Body, which doesn't happen a lot in regular play. After all, two hit points per feat adds up when you have fifteen or so lying around (and only ~30 + 6*con base hp).