Is this a balanced dungeon?

[Specter]

Greetings,

I don't want to waste your time, so let's be quick: is this dungeon balanced for a party of five level-10 adventurers or is it too deadly?

MONSTERS
- 3 gelatinous cubes (simultaneously)
- 2 tree blights (from Curse of Strahd; basically CR7 evil treants; simultaneously)
- 1 swarm of bats
- 1 swarm of beetles
- 1 cloaker
- Laughing Worm (uses the stats of the Purple Worm, but has improved mental stats; pic below)

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/98/8d/06/988d064bb19972d08c3d3223eb50e268.jpg

TRAPS
- 4 dire wolves (they are conjured when the adventurers come close to certain statues; could be avoided after they find the password later on, otherwise it's 8 of them)
- Necrotic doorknobs (4d8 upon touch; protecting a library and an armory; if the players solve two riddles they won't take the damage)
- Green slime (three times, in different doorways)

Any suggestions appreciated. Thanks in advance.

[JackPhoenix]

Let's see, using koboldfightclub's encounter builder (http://kobold.club/fight/#/encounter-builder):

3 Gelatinous Cubes: Not even Easy
2 Tree Blights: halfway between Medium and Hard
Swarms: Not even Easy... for level 1 characters.
Cloaker: Easy
Worm: Hard, not quite Deadly

If anything, the dungeon is way to easy for 5 level 10 characters. The worm is the only thing resembling a challenge, as it is one of 2 serious encounters in the whole dungeon, the characters should have almost all their resources, so no big deal either.

[Specter]

Huh, fair enough. So which of these encounters should I sweat out? 2 cloakers? More swarms all huddled up together?

[coolAlias]

Huh, fair enough. So which of these encounters should I sweat out? 2 cloakers? More swarms all huddled up together?
In most of your encounters, you are using creatures with CRs of 2 and lower... for 5 level 10 adventurers.

Have you read the DMG encounter building guidelines (pg 81-82)?

A single 10th level adventurer's XP budget is 600 for an easy encounter. A gelatinous cube is CR 2, worth only 450 xp, so isn't even an easy encounter for a single level 10 adventurer.

I suggest you peruse the Monster Manual for creatures of at least CR 3 (700 xp - DMG pg 306 has lists of monsters by CR) and put them in groups of at least 4-5 (for a Medium challenge). Use the Kobold Fight Club linked above if you don't want to figure it all out by hand.

[Kane0]

Some of those monster encounters are pretty easy but you should be OK if you pair them with the traps. Goal is to force a short rest before the worm (which made me smile more than it should have), two if you're lucky.

If theyre having it too easy just throw something small at them when theyre going down a narrow corridor or busy dealing with some other hazard (or encounter). Burn a couple extra resources in time for the climactic end fight.

Edit: Kobold Fight Club is your friend.

[imanidiot]

Greetings,

I don't want to waste your time, so let's be quick: is this dungeon balanced for a party of five level-10 adventurers or is it too deadly?

MONSTERS
- 3 gelatinous cubes (simultaneously)
- 2 tree blights (from Curse of Strahd; basically CR7 evil treants; simultaneously)
- 1 swarm of bats
- 1 swarm of beetles
- 1 cloaker
- Laughing Worm (uses the stats of the Purple Worm, but has improved mental stats; pic below)

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/98/8d/06/988d064bb19972d08c3d3223eb50e268.jpg

TRAPS
- 4 dire wolves (they are conjured when the adventurers come close to certain statues; could be avoided after they find the password later on, otherwise it's 8 of them)
- Necrotic doorknobs (4d8 upon touch; protecting a library and an armory; if the players solve two riddles they won't take the damage)
- Green slime (three times, in different doorways)

Any suggestions appreciated. Thanks in advance.

I tend not to design encounters with less than 3 opponents unless one or more of them have legendary actions.

I use http://dhmstark.co.uk/rpgs/encounter-calculator-5th/ to gauge the danger of my encounters but there are other sites that do the same thing.

According to that site 3 Gelatinous cubes would be a trivial encounter, I used it to retune your encounters just by adding more opponents. And I got

-12 Gelatinous cubes, Deadly encounter
-3 Tree blights, Deadly
-48 Swarms of bats, Hard
-24 Swarms of beetles, Hard
-3 Cloakers, Deadly
-2 Purple worms, Deadly

I would also change the trap to summon 4 dire wolves per PC so 20 at the same time. That's an extremely dangerous encounter with a high likelihood of failure. So it becomes more important that the PCs find a way to avoid it instead.

For the swarms keep in mind that they can all 48 fit in the same 5' space so they should all attack the same character. With an AC of 20 a character would get hit 25% of the time for 5 damage, with 48 attacks that's 60 damage per round. It takes some simple math but it's better than rolling 48 hit rolls every round.

[Specter]

In most of your encounters, you are using creatures with CRs of 2 and lower... for 5 level 10 adventurers.

Have you read the DMG encounter building guidelines (pg 81-82)?

A single 10th level adventurer's XP budget is 600 for an easy encounter. A gelatinous cube is CR 2, worth only 450 xp, so isn't even an easy encounter for a single level 10 adventurer.

I suggest you peruse the Monster Manual for creatures of at least CR 3 (700 xp - DMG pg 306 has lists of monsters by CR) and put them in groups of at least 4-5 (for a Medium challenge). Use the Kobold Fight Club linked above if you don't want to figure it all out by hand.

I'm having a hard time finding creatures that would actually be in an abandoned underground elven sanctuary. The next thing on the list is to increase monster number, I guess.


Some of those monster encounters are pretty easy but you should be OK if you pair them with the traps. Goal is to force a short rest before the worm (which made me smile more than it should have), two if you're lucky.

If theyre having it too easy just throw something small at them when theyre going down a narrow corridor or busy dealing with some other hazard (or encounter). Burn a couple extra resources in time for the climactic end fight.

Edit: Kobold Fight Club is your friend.

I always have trouble with CRs because they're almost never applicable in practice, which is why I usually ask for advice here (thanks btw).


I tend not to design encounters with less than 3 opponents unless one or more of them have legendary actions.

I use http://dhmstark.co.uk/rpgs/encounter-calculator-5th/ to gauge the danger of my encounters but there are other sites that do the same thing.

According to that site 3 Gelatinous cubes would be a trivial encounter, I used it to retune your encounters just by adding more opponents. And I got

-12 Gelatinous cubes, Deadly encounter
-3 Tree blights, Deadly
-48 Swarms of bats, Hard
-24 Swarms of beetles, Hard
-3 Cloakers, Deadly
-2 Purple worms, Deadly

I would also change the trap to summon 4 dire wolves per PC so 20 at the same time. That's an extremely dangerous encounter with a high likelihood of failure. So it becomes more important that the PCs find a way to avoid it instead.

I'm sorry, but are you suggesting that I implement all of these changes? Because I can't imagine even the most hardcore group of powergamers walking away from that.

[imanidiot]

I'm having a hard time finding creatures that would actually be in an abandoned underground elven sanctuary. The next thing on the list is to increase monster number, I guess.



I always have trouble with CRs because they're almost never applicable in practice, which is why I usually ask for advice here (thanks btw).



I'm sorry, but are you suggesting that I implement all of these changes? Because I can't imagine even the most hardcore group of powergamers walking away from that.

Those swarms are all ging to die in 1 round to a fireball or spirit guardians spell. The only really difficult encounter is the gelatinous cubes and you can put that one at the beginning so the PCs have all of their resources available.

These are the encounters I have for my current game of 4 level 1 characters.

6 cr 1/8 cultists 150x
3 cr 1/4 goblins 150x
6 cr 1/4 goblins 300x
short rest
2 cr 1/2 crocodiles 200
4 cr 1/4 goblins 200x
short rest
4 cr 1/4 drow 200x

all of these groups will attempt to ambush the characters and will flee after one round if the ambush isn't successful. The cultists fight to the death but every other group will retreat and regroup to try again or try to ambush them later. The 6 goblins are in their lair behind fortifications and the crocodiles are encountered in or near deep water.

I don't expect that every group will be able to succeed at this adventure the first time. In fact, if no one ever dies and my PCs never have a TPK I consider the adventure to be too easy and easy is boring. If you can't lose you can't win either and there's no poin t to playing a game if you can't win.

[coolAlias]

Lol, yeah if you're throwing dozens of creatures at the PCs at once, usually that's a sign that the creatures aren't hard enough, but with that many, especially swarms, it can still be a deadly challenge (for groups without AoE).

Speaking of which, the adventuring day is designed around 6-8 medium encounters, not deadly ones. I personally find that the default is a little too easy feeling for my taste, but I try not to throw too many deadly encounters at PCs - save those for big boss fights and such.

Also, yes, fights with one single opponent are usually pathetically one-sided in the PCs favor due to action economy. They don't have to be, but be prepared to do some homebrew to make it happen whenever you want. For example, I gave an Ankheg lair actions (among other tweaks) and called it the Ankheg Queen as a mini-boss for a side quest. You can't expect to just use the MM entries as is all the time.

Fights are also always better with at least 2 different types of creatures, preferably ones with different tactics.

As for which ones to use? You didn't give us much information about your dungeon's theme in the OP, but stick whatever you want in there and come up with reasons later if the players ask. I mean, why are there gelatinous cubes hanging with a purple worm and cloakers? Do the players care why, or are they just going to romp through killing and looting?

Starting with CR 3, why not toss in a Green Hag? Or a coven of them? What if they had some basilisk guard dogs and rode on giant scorpions? Perhaps they have some thralled knights or a minotaur. Now you've got some serious encounter potential, and that's just the CR 3 creatures. Toss in some goblin cannon fodder (and trap-springers / harriers) as the hags' loyal servants into every fight and you'll have some interesting stuff to work with.

[Kane0]

They'd presumably use a fireball for 3 swarms or 8, so either way its the same expenditure.

[imanidiot]

Lol, yeah if you're throwing dozens of creatures at the PCs at once, usually that's a sign that the creatures aren't hard enough, but with that many, especially swarms, it can still be a deadly challenge (for groups without AoE).

Speaking of which, the adventuring day is designed around 6-8 medium encounters, not deadly ones. I personally find that the default is a little too easy feeling for my taste, but I try not to throw too many deadly encounters at PCs - save those for big boss fights and such.



Yeah I personally never use anything less than a hard encounter and use mostly deadly encounters because as a player I think anything else is too easy. But my DM actually uses much easier encounters with much easier tactics because he runs a predominantly story focused game and that what the majority of the group prefers. If your group doesn't like intensive encounters or losing PCs regularly my DM style would not be appropriate or fun for them.

[coolAlias]

Yeah I personally never use anything less than a hard encounter and use mostly deadly encounters because as a player I think anything else is too easy. But my DM actually uses much easier encounters with much easier tactics because he runs a predominantly story focused game and that what the majority of the group prefers. If your group doesn't like intensive encounters or losing PCs regularly my DM style would not be appropriate or fun for them.
Oh, our group loves intense encounters, but even a medium encounter can feel pretty intense if the opponents are played intelligently, especially if the party is already running a little low on resources.

The encounters you mentioned in your post after you edited it would be extremely challenging for 4 1st level adventurers. I would expect probably half of the groups to be TPK'd, maybe more if there are lots of places for the goblins to hide and snipe (like a published adventure that starts off with a meager 4 goblins and often succeeds in achieving TPK).

Nothing wrong with a good meat-grinder game, but for our games there is plenty of excitement without going to such an extreme. Death is a very real possibility, but we don't like to make it a near certainty. ;)

[imanidiot]

Oh, our group loves intense encounters, but even a medium encounter can feel pretty intense if the opponents are played intelligently, especially if the party is already running a little low on resources.

The encounters you mentioned in your post after you edited it would be extremely challenging for 4 1st level adventurers. I would expect probably half of the groups to be TPK'd, maybe more if there are lots of places for the goblins to hide and snipe (like a published adventure that starts off with a meager 4 goblins and often succeeds in achieving TPK).

Nothing wrong with a good meat-grinder game, but for our games there is plenty of excitement without going to such an extreme. Death is a very real possibility, but we don't like to make it a near certainty. ;)

Yeah it's meant to be very dangerous. It's worth noting that the PCs can leave the dungeon to regroup with little to no consequence pretty much whenever they want to. And the goblins aren't necessarily 100% hostile, they want the PCs to leave they don't want to kill them, not at first anyway. Don't want to hijack the thread anymore so I'm going to leave it at that.

[Tanarii]

These are the encounters I have for my current game of 4 level 1 characters.

6 cr 1/8 cultists 150x
3 cr 1/4 goblins 150x
6 cr 1/4 goblins 300x
short rest
2 cr 1/2 crocodiles 200
4 cr 1/4 goblins 200x
short rest
4 cr 1/4 drow 200xTheres no way 4 level 1 characters can survive that in a single adventuring day.

They're:
Hard (300 XP)
Hard (300 XP)
Deadly (600 XP)
Hard (300 XP)
Deadly (400 XP)
Deadly (400 XP)

That's 2300 XP for an adventuring day, or almost double the adventuring day budget/limit for 4x 1st characters. They should get a shirt rest after each of the first two hard fights, and a long one after the Deadly Goblin fight. Followed by a short rest after each of the next two fights, and a second long rest after the Drow fight.

I'm all for upping the difficulty by extending the adventuring day by increasing the budget. But unless you've got some serious power gamers using highly unconventional tactics, that's almost certainly going to wipe the party.

[Chugger]

I suppose you're mainly asking about the monster CR challenge, and you said there are some traps and riddles to mitigate them.

But what seems missing to me is a "mind bender" or two. Now, not everyone likes these - not everyone can do them well - but they can be more satisfying to solve than winning a battle.

Or if not that, I was exposed to a new mechanism (new to me) the other night at an adv league game. We were trapped in a guy's house by creatures we couldn't defeat, but he had a flying machine (semi-magical) that was almost ready to go. He also wanted his effects picked up. The party had to split up and someone had to figure out a way to delay the things from breaking down the door - while another group with good perception had to hunt down his effects he had to have before he'd fly us all away - and ones with good intel had to help him put the finishing touches on the flying machine. It was roll city, with us fighting for every edge we could get. Guidance and bardic insp and once the high wis/low intel players had found the effects, we had to NOT touch the machine but only assist - giving the high intel people advantage on their rolls. The way it seemed to work was that the things outside could be delayed by tricks and/or intimidation maybe illusions and delays and so on (putting stuff in stairs). The searchers had to make 5 to 10 dc 10 checks before his stuff was gathered, but a fail did not set back. On the machine, a failed dc 10 intel roll caused a set-back -cancelled a positive check - and 5 to 10 positive checks were needed to escape.

Once we escaped you had to make str checks for the people turning the cranks or risk crashing, which we thankfully made - and we got away. There was a system for it - two successful cranks = 5 ft altitude gain and 20 ft forward. We had to go like 100 feet to get away to safety (the pursuers would give up on us - or at that point if we had at least 30 ft alt we cleared a barrier that hindered them). If one made a str check and one missed something happened - I think we lost 5 ft and only went 10 ft fwd. And if both missed we dropped 10 ft and stalled making no fwd progress.

It was a very interesting mechanism and it was harrowing to experience. It was exciting. I wouldn't put more than one such an event in an adventure, but it was pretty cool. Obviously I'm not saying put this exact encounter in your haunted castle type adventure - but the point is that a series of positive skill checks could add up, while failed ones detract. Maybe they find a flesh golem creation lab and one is partially created there - but they're trapped in this place by something they can't beat (but there is writing there that this flesh golem, if finished, would be very good against the thing trapping them and breaking down the door w/e). There is a chemical component that might require an Insight check. There is an electricity component that might require Perception checks. Maybe perception checks are needed to find a missing page to the instruction manual - or several missing pages. You must advance the chemical and electrical stages - like five of them - with successful dc 10 or dc w/e checks (harder if you want hard) needed to advance a step - a failed one brings them back a step - and maybe a str check is needed for the final thing - throwing the master switch - and voila - if they read it and did it right the flesh golem serves them and kills the thing coming after them (tragically dying in the process) - but if they read it wrong and forget a key step the flesh golem is enraged and attacks them and you need a dm intervention to rescue them (at the last minute they could discover an escape hatch) perhaps (but they don't get that sweet xp they woulda got (or a magic item) had they done it properly and made the golem their buddy). Something like this might fit in very well in your dungeon - and heck, I'm thinking about using it myself!!

The point is that there is more to the game, potentially, than hack n slash n cast n shoot n deal with normal dungeon traps. Push yourself, if you want - see if you can add an experience that is different, exciting, out there - and so on. And if not, a lot of people are happy w/ the normal routine. Some even don't like "change" (if the event is cool, most will). Good luck!

[imanidiot]

Theres no way 4 level 1 characters can survive that in a single adventuring day.

They're:
Hard (300 XP)
Hard (300 XP)
Deadly (600 XP)
Hard (300 XP)
Deadly (400 XP)
Deadly (400 XP)

That's 2300 XP for an adventuring day, or almost double the adventuring day budget/limit for 4x 1st characters. They should get a shirt rest after each of the first two hard fights, and a long one after the Deadly Goblin fight. Followed by a short rest after each of the next two fights, and a second long rest after the Drow fight.

I'm all for upping the difficulty by extending the adventuring day by increasing the budget. But unless you've got some serious power gamers using highly unconventional tactics, that's almost certainly going to wipe the party.

If you try to kill everything you encounter you're going to die. You're not supposed to fight everything. You have to be smart and make good tactical decisions. If you just charge in and start murderhoboing, you die.

[Yanecky]

One point you seem to be missing: are the PCs going to be able to get a long rest, especially before the purple worm encounter? If they enter the deadly-rated encounters with spells and abilities depleted, they're likely to die. On the other hand, even deadly encounters can go smoothly if the party is rested.

[Malifice]

Huh, fair enough. So which of these encounters should I sweat out? 2 cloakers? More swarms all huddled up together?

Step 1: Go to Kobold Fight club (or one of the many other calculators online). Plug in 5 x 10th level PCs to get yourself an XP budget (it spits out an easy, medium, hard and deadly figure).

Step 2: Punch in a number of monsters by CR into same. You're aiming for 6-8 medium- hard encounters. (remember the values for medium and hard are the starting values only; from that value to 1 less than hard/ deadly are the range of permissible values). Its OK to have a single Deadly fight in there somewhere, and an easy one as well. Aim for 6-8 medium-hard as a ball park.

Step 3: Impose a time constraint on the quest (WHY are they there? WHAT happens if they fail?). The time limit should basically amount to (bad consequence Y happens) unless they (slay the BBEG/ rescue the princess/ stop the ritual/ recover or destroy the macguffin etc) by (time X); with time X (in a dungeon like this) being a period of time less than 24 hours since they last Long rested (so they hit the dungeon fully gassed up, but cant long rest while in it).

This sets them consequences for their actions, it provides narrative impetus (and a sense of urgency) for the quest, and polices the adventuring day.

Finally, have a few 'random' encounters to throw at them (or to reinforce existing encounters) if the try and game the Short rest mechanic.

Done.

[Tanarii]

If you try to kill everything you encounter you're going to die. You're not supposed to fight everything. You have to be smart and make good tactical decisions. If you just charge in and start murderhoboing, you die.
If they don't have to use the equivalent resources they would fighting them to get past the creatures, they're not worth the same XP. An encounter that doesn't require resources to bypass is an Easy encounter (about 1/3 the XP of a Hard encounter, or 1/4 that of a Deadly). Don't forget to reduce the encounter's XP reward accordingly.

[Specter]

Thanks for everyone's help. Will come back later with the changes.

[Specter]

So, some modifications and improvements to the encounter list:

- 3 shambling mounds (hard)
- 2 tree blights (treants are listed as CR9 because they awake other trees unlike these guys, but by giving them the rock attack option I think this goes to hard)
- 8 dire wolves, summoned 2 at a time by the trap (easy encounters, but should drain some resources to avoid damage)
- 2 cloakers (hard)
- Laughing Worm now will have those four lvl3 fighters from the drawing up there fighting by its side (they are charmed by it). This along with the improved mental stats should make it deadly.
- Plus some traps.

Is this fair enough for a hard (not deadly) dungeon?

[coolAlias]

So, some modifications and improvements to the encounter list:

- 3 shambling mounds (hard)
- 2 tree blights (treants are listed as CR9 because they awake other trees unlike these guys, but by giving them the rock attack option I think this goes to hard)
- 8 dire wolves, summoned 2 at a time by the trap (easy encounters, but should drain some resources to avoid damage)
- 2 cloakers (hard)
- Laughing Worm now will have those four lvl3 fighters from the drawing up there fighting by its side (they are charmed by it). This along with the improved mental stats should make it deadly.
- Plus some traps.

Is this fair enough for a hard (not deadly) dungeon?
2 dire wolves at a time isn't even an easy challenge for your party - that's a mere 600 XP worth of encounter budget, which is the XP budget for an easy encounter for ONE player of 10th level, and you have FIVE players, so an easy encounter would be five times that amount, i.e. 3000 XP worth of baddies.

Please read the DMG guidelines carefully - it explains all of this on page 82.

Otherwise, as has been said, the default challenge expectation is 6-8 medium to hard encounters per adventuring day.

To get an idea of the total day's XP budget, multiply the budget for a medium encounter by 6 to get the low end and the hard budget by 8 to get a quite high end.

Now tally up the total XP budget of your fights (remember to multiply by number of creatures). Does it fit within the full day's budget as calculated above? If so, you've nailed it. If not, you'll need to adjust it.

[imanidiot]

If they don't have to use the equivalent resources they would fighting them to get past the creatures, they're not worth the same XP. An encounter that doesn't require resources to bypass is an Easy encounter (about 1/3 the XP of a Hard encounter, or 1/4 that of a Deadly). Don't forget to reduce the encounter's XP reward accordingly.

I was just able to beat the first encounter of 6 cr 1/8 cultist with pregen characters of a fighter, cleric, rogue, and warlock without using any short or long rest abilities after using the Cleric's Healer feat the Rogue was missing 2 hp and no one else was damaged. It took 4 rounds. That is a "hard" encounter that was trivially easy only using the most basic, straightforward tactics.

[JNAProductions]

I was just able to beat the first encounter of 6 cr 1/8 cultist with pregen characters of a fighter, cleric, rogue, and warlock without using any short or long rest abilities after using the Cleric's Healer feat the Rogue was missing 2 hp and no one else was damaged. It took 4 rounds. That is a "hard" encounter that was trivially easy only using the most basic, straightforward tactics.

Care to go into more detail?

[Specter]

2 dire wolves at a time isn't even an easy challenge for your party - that's a mere 600 XP worth of encounter budget, which is the XP budget for an easy encounter for ONE player of 10th level, and you have FIVE players, so an easy encounter would be five times that amount, i.e. 3000 XP worth of baddies.

Please read the DMG guidelines carefully - it explains all of this on page 82.

Otherwise, as has been said, the default challenge expectation is 6-8 medium to hard encounters per adventuring day.

To get an idea of the total day's XP budget, multiply the budget for a medium encounter by 6 to get the low end and the hard budget by 8 to get a quite high end.

Now tally up the total XP budget of your fights (remember to multiply by number of creatures). Does it fit within the full day's budget as calculated above? If so, you've nailed it. If not, you'll need to adjust it.

I have read it, but I find it hard to believe that having 4 very easy encounters wouldn't measure to at least an easy one. If the party doesn't spend resources in these fights quickly, they will get jumped, and that's a setback. CR is supposed to be a reference, not a gospel.

As for the 6 encounters, I've counted the traps described in the first post as one, because encounters don't necessarily translate into combat ones. If they're clever, the traps won't matter, but if not, they'll be bothersome.

[coolAlias]

I have read it, but I find it hard to believe that having 4 very easy encounters wouldn't measure to at least an easy one. If the party doesn't spend resources in these fights quickly, they will get jumped, and that's a setback. CR is supposed to be a reference, not a gospel.

As for the 6 encounters, I've counted the traps described in the first post as one, because encounters don't necessarily translate into combat ones. If they're clever, the traps won't matter, but if not, they'll be bothersome.
If you have some interesting terrain features that give the wolves advantages or the PCs disadvantages (e.g. low ceilings, lots of concealment / cover for the wolves, etc.), then yes it could turn out to be a slight resource drain.

But consider, at 10th level with 5 characters, they'll put down 2 dire wolves in 1-2 rounds no problem and have a pretty good chance of never taking a single point of damage.

Why? Action economy. 2 vs 5, where the 2 have a single attack each on their action and the 5 have all sorts of stuff at level 10. AC 14 with 37 HP isn't going to last long against them even if they use only regular attacks and cantrips.

That's not to say you can't include them, but just be aware that the PCs are going to steamroll them handily and probably come out no worse for the wear.

If it were me, I'd want to up the ante a little - why not throw ogre handlers in there or have a couple of them actually be werewolves? Mix it up a little bit - encounters with a single enemy type are less interesting than encounters with multiple enemy types, even if those types are just "goblin skirmisher" and "goblin shaman."

[imanidiot]

Care to go into more detail?

I still have the spreadsheet i used to track the combat. I made all of the rolls with actual dice.

Short Setup - the PCs are hired by a shady merchant to go raid the catacombs under the city. A group of cultists has set up at the mouth of the cave to ambush the adventurers and kidnap them to add to the cult. The cultists try to hide until the last minute (+1 to stealth roll, all PCs succeed) and jump out demanding that the PCs throw down their weapons, The cultists fight to the death and attack if the PCs do not comply

PCs are all standard array
Fighter VHuman, Heavy Armor Master
Rogue VHuman, Alert
Cleric VHuman, Healer
Warlock Half Elf

Initiative
26 rogue (stealth roll succeeded, hidden)
21 fighter
11 warlock
8 cultists
6 cleric

round 1
the rogue flanks and attacks from hiding kills one of the cultists
the fighter advances toward the main group within 5' of 3 cultists, 7 damage to one
the warlock EB's from the back and finishes the injured cultist
2 cultists attack the rogue, the other two attack the fighter because if they move away he could get an OA. the rogue takes 4 damage the fighter takes 1
the cleric casts Sacred Flame on a cultist for 4 damage

round 2
the rogue attacks the cultist that attacked him that is within 5' of the fighter, dead cultist
the fighter attacks the cultist that the cleric damaged, dead cultist
the warlock EBs and misses
the two cultists left both attack the rogue, the rogue takes 4 more damage
the cleric casts Sacred Flame on a cultist for 7 damage

round 3
seeing that the cultist have no intention of surrendering the rogue maneuvers behind one within 5' of the fighter, kills it
fighter and warlock finish off the last one, combat over
the cleric uses Healer to heal the fighter to full and the rogue up to 8 hp

I thought that it had taken 4 rounds but it appears that i mis-remembered, it was only 3

[Tanarii]

Okay so you've got heavily optimized characters using two variant rules (vumans and feats), a house rule allows the rogue to separately start combat stealthed, and your rolling init for the enemy as a single group. That allowed the players to off two cultists immediately.

Edit: an important thing I hadn't thought of is the use of optional rules. The game isn't balanced around vhumans and feats, especially at low level. They can easily double the effective power of a 1st character, especially the top choices. They're common enough I should have realized that's probably what was going on. Problem is I don't use them in the game I run. So I concede, if they're in play, the party might be able to survive the proposed adventuring day.

[imanidiot]

I am under the impression that variant humans and feats are only technically variant rules. I have never played in a game that didn't use both.

Why wouldn't the rogue begin combat hidden if he was able to win Stealth/Perception against all 6 opponents? Do your rogues not try to remain hidden out of combat in dangerous areas?

Those characters are far from optimized. They do take advantage of obviously superior options when presented with those options. But, why would you bring an inferior combatant with you when you're going into a situation where you are likely to encounter violence?

I ran it again for 2 rounds rolling initiative separately and rolling enemy damage instead of using the average. No difference.

Edit: All that being said it is just the first encounter. If the PCs were dead set of finishing the adventure no matter what and refused to leave the dungeon and flee, I would expect them to do so successfully about half the time. Stealth and Perception are the 2 most important skills by a long shot in this game. Failing a Perception roll can kill you.

[Malifice]

So, some modifications and improvements to the encounter list:

- 3 shambling mounds (hard)
- 2 tree blights (treants are listed as CR9 because they awake other trees unlike these guys, but by giving them the rock attack option I think this goes to hard)
- 8 dire wolves, summoned 2 at a time by the trap (easy encounters, but should drain some resources to avoid damage)
- 2 cloakers (hard)
- Laughing Worm now will have those four lvl3 fighters from the drawing up there fighting by its side (they are charmed by it). This along with the improved mental stats should make it deadly.
- Plus some traps.

Is this fair enough for a hard (not deadly) dungeon?

The encounters lack variety for mine. You really want to mix them up, not just in encounter difficulty and solo v multiples, but also in types of monsters, and threats posed.

Here are a few ideas:

Encounter 1: 2 x Shambling mounds (increase AC to 17, Strength to 20, add +1 to hit and damage and to ability DC's) and a Call lightning trap.

The room/ area is covered in weeds, vines and foliage (creating areas of difficult terrain). Concealed in the weeds are the Shambling mounds (a DC 15 Nature Check from anyone who specifically examines the weeds/ vines on the wall detects).

In the centre of the room is a copper rod sticking up from the ground to a height of 7'. It is circled at a distance of 10' diameter a series of runes inscribed in verdigris stained greenish copper on the floor (written in druidic which warn not to cross); however the runic circle is iteself hidden under the weeds (a DC 15 [Intelligence] Investigation check detects if the PC states he is specifically searching/ clearing the ground; a PC that doesnt specifically state he is clearing the weeds to look under them is at disadvantage). A detect magic also reveals the trap (A DC 15 [intelligence] Arcana check reveals the presence of evocation magic coming from the rod to a distance of 10' around it)

A PC that crosses the runes sets off the trap triggering the encounter. PCs are surprised on round one unless aware of the Shamblers. The Trap acts on Inititiave count 20 of each round; with lightning arcing from the copper rod and targeting one randomly determined creature in the room (and all creatures within 5' of that creature) dealing 3d10 lightning damage (DC 15 Dexterity for half). The trap also targets the Shambling mounds (remember - shambling mounds are healed by Lightning damage!) who voluntarily fail their saves. A PC in metal armor makes his Dexterity save at disadvantage.

The Shamblers move to attack once the trap is triggered, or if the PCs succesfully disarm it. The trap stops functioning after 10 minutes, or if a dispell magic is cast on it. It resets each night at midnight.

The trap is disarmed with a succesful DC 20 [Dexterity] thieves tools check by chiselling out the copper in the runes breaking the circle. Failure by 5 or more sets it off.

Encounter 2: NPC Archdruid (foresight already cast and active, replace animal shapes with sunburst, replace firestorm with reverse gravity), Treant (lacks animate trees ability, reduce CR to 6) and 8 x twig blights with bows (+3, 1d6+1 piercing) (do not multiply for difficulty as they are only CR 1/8).

The Druid is here to study the trap in encounter 1 (the shambling mounds are friendly to him, and he wants to nothing to do with the worm and is avoiding him). He is barking mad, and attacks any interlopers (assuming they are here to steal his research). He has already cast [I]foresight, and tries to catch as many PCs as possible with a sunburst on round 1, before switching to sunbeam (while his minions deal with and tie down the PCs). If pressed to less than half HP he assumes Elemental form (as a bonus action) and fights on.

Encounter 3: I'd use Winter Wolves instead of Dire wolves (spammed in groups of 4). Otherwise the same encounter. (Breath weapons and AoE's make for fantastic resource drains for the party).

Encounter 4: No change. 2 x Cloakers. Likely obtain surprise.

Re Encounter 5 (the Laughing Worm) I would consider making it legendary (grant it 2 x legendary resistances, and 2 x legendary actions each turn).

It can use its Legendary actions to cast Vicious mockery (CL 17th, 4d4 psychic damage, DC 19 Wisdom resists).

It has 4 x Charmed CR 2 warrior minions (Use Orog stats).

This next bit is the most important bit:

***The worm is seeking to complete a ritual at midnight (the ritial is named 'Calling of the Worm' - if succesful, the whole region the PCs are in will be infested with Purple worms for some time).

Alternatively maybe the fighters it has enslaved are allies/ friends of the PCs, or the PCs are otherwise hired to rescue them before the worm eats them (any time now). If they save these fighters by midnight (when the worm plans on eating them) they gain the services of these 4 x NPCs as loyal companions and bodyguards as long as they treat them well, and provide for them.

Whatever the reason, the PCs are aware of the fact they are on the clock, and that long resting will have consequences.***

[Tanarii]

Edit: removing my post because it's too much of a tangent /thread jack.

[JNAProductions]

Also, I believe I noticed Flanking in there. Is that just a term, or are you actually using the Flanking rules?

[coolAlias]

Because that's not how the surprise rules work. To surprise an opponent, you need for your entire party to successfully beat the opponents passive perception.

And allowing a stealth check at the beginning of combat for 'free', outside of the surprise rules, means you just gave the Rogue a free bonus action.
If you notice, the cultists were all able to take an action in the first round, so they weren't surprised.

Do you not allow characters to e.g. scout slightly ahead and be moving stealthily, i.e. having rolled a Dexterity (Stealth) check, and that character choosing to remain in place until the party catches up and engages? As long as the enemies' passive Wisdom (Perception) isn't good enough to notice the hidden character, I've always allowed them to begin combat hidden - provided, of course, that they do in fact have a hiding place.

As for those encounters, 6 cultists against 4 characters could go poorly if the cultists end up with better initiative and positioning, thus the Deadly ranking. Per the DMG:

"A deadly encounter could be lethal for one or more player characters. Survival often requires good tactics and quick thinking, and the party risks defeat."

I'd say that pretty well qualifies, as even with good tactics you might be at the mercy of the dice.

[imanidiot]

Also, I believe I noticed Flanking in there. Is that just a term, or are you actually using the Flanking rules?

No by flanking I just mean he moves to the side and attacks.

[imanidiot]

Edit: removing my post because it's too much of a tangent /thread jack.

This is a good idea. Ive hijacked this thread enough.

[Malifice]

If you notice, the cultists were all able to take an action in the first round, so they weren't surprised.

Do you not allow characters to e.g. scout slightly ahead and be moving stealthily, i.e. having rolled a Dexterity (Stealth) check, and that character choosing to remain in place until the party catches up and engages? As long as the enemies' passive Wisdom (Perception) isn't good enough to notice the hidden character, I've always allowed them to begin combat hidden - provided, of course, that they do in fact have a hiding place.

As for those encounters, 6 cultists against 4 characters could go poorly if the cultists end up with better initiative and positioning, thus the Deadly ranking. Per the DMG:

"A deadly encounter could be lethal for one or more player characters. Survival often requires good tactics and quick thinking, and the party risks defeat."

I'd say that pretty well qualifies, as even with good tactics you might be at the mercy of the dice.

They may start hidden, but they wont have surprise.

The enemies notice even 1 PC at the start of combat (when initiative is called for) they are not surprised. 1 hidden PC and 4 other non-hidden PCs = no surprise.

The hidden PC gets the benefit of advantage on his first attack, but (for example) cant assasinate or similar.

The game isnt designed around 1 (super deadly) encounter per long rest. It's designed (and balanced) around half a dozen encounters, broken up by 2-3 short rests. When an encounter is classified as 'hard' that is taken to mean 'hard' in the context of 'it's only one of an expected 6 encounters this day'.

You can throw a single super deadly encounter at the party from time to time (such encounters pretty much become rocket tag but hey). In fact its advisable (to mix things up). But equally, you should be throwing the occasional meat grinder at them (10+ encounters in a single day) and sticking to a median of around 6 or so encounters as your baseline.

Its easy enough to do as DM. Putting them on the clock is the easiest method. If that doesnt work tweak the rest rules (gritty realism resting works a treat) or simply rule they dont benefit from the rest (it only counts as a short rest due to *reasons*) etc.

[ShirAhn]

Greetings,

I don't want to waste your time, so let's be quick: is this dungeon balanced for a party of five level-10 adventurers or is it too deadly?

MONSTERS
- 3 gelatinous cubes (simultaneously)
- 2 tree blights (from Curse of Strahd; basically CR7 evil treants; simultaneously)
- 1 swarm of bats
- 1 swarm of beetles
- 1 cloaker
- Laughing Worm (uses the stats of the Purple Worm, but has improved mental stats; pic below)

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/98/8d/06/988d064bb19972d08c3d3223eb50e268.jpg

TRAPS
- 4 dire wolves (they are conjured when the adventurers come close to certain statues; could be avoided after they find the password later on, otherwise it's 8 of them)
- Necrotic doorknobs (4d8 upon touch; protecting a library and an armory; if the players solve two riddles they won't take the damage)
- Green slime (three times, in different doorways)

Any suggestions appreciated. Thanks in advance.

It really depends on how much time the party gets to rest between encounters. On its own its of these won't give much of a challenge, however if the party has to fight the worm and they are almost out of spellslots it becomes a big difference. I would say go with it, and if you feel like its not too much of a challenge up the pressure by throwing in the worm mid fight? It could borrow through a wall whist they are fighting some monsters. The worm eats one of the monsters right infront ot them. The worm then attacks both the players and the remaining monsters.

Once the fight is over, the players find out that this worm still has egg shells attached to it, so it was probably just a baby and there might be others nearby. Everytime they take a rest, you can role a %die and see if they get attacked, or not. Whatever you want.

[Citan]

Greetings,

I don't want to waste your time, so let's be quick: is this dungeon balanced for a party of five level-10 adventurers or is it too deadly?

MONSTERS
- 3 gelatinous cubes (simultaneously)
- 2 tree blights (from Curse of Strahd; basically CR7 evil treants; simultaneously)
- 1 swarm of bats
- 1 swarm of beetles
- 1 cloaker
- Laughing Worm (uses the stats of the Purple Worm, but has improved mental stats; pic below)

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/98/8d/06/988d064bb19972d08c3d3223eb50e268.jpg

TRAPS
- 4 dire wolves (they are conjured when the adventurers come close to certain statues; could be avoided after they find the password later on, otherwise it's 8 of them)
- Necrotic doorknobs (4d8 upon touch; protecting a library and an armory; if the players solve two riddles they won't take the damage)
- Green slime (three times, in different doorways)

Any suggestions appreciated. Thanks in advance.
Yes, it's deadly... If you make all creatures listed attack at once. ;)
Otherwise far too easy.
Either pair several creatures at once, or increase the number if you want to keep several encounters.
Now with that said...

I tend not to design encounters with less than 3 opponents unless one or more of them have legendary actions.

I use http://dhmstark.co.uk/rpgs/encounter-calculator-5th/ to gauge the danger of my encounters but there are other sites that do the same thing.

According to that site 3 Gelatinous cubes would be a trivial encounter, I used it to retune your encounters just by adding more opponents. And I got

-12 Gelatinous cubes, Deadly encounter
-3 Tree blights, Deadly
-48 Swarms of bats, Hard
-24 Swarms of beetles, Hard
-3 Cloakers, Deadly
-2 Purple worms, Deadly

I would also change the trap to summon 4 dire wolves per PC so 20 at the same time. That's an extremely dangerous encounter with a high likelihood of failure. So it becomes more important that the PCs find a way to avoid it instead.

For the swarms keep in mind that they can all 48 fit in the same 5' space so they should all attack the same character. With an AC of 20 a character would get hit 25% of the time for 5 damage, with 48 attacks that's 60 damage per round. It takes some simple math but it's better than rolling 48 hit rolls every round.
That is a borderline void example imo, sorry, far too over the top, depending on party composition.
48 Swarm of bats may be downed with a single Fireball, but it's provided someone in the party had high enough Initiative to do that before their turn (because Specter would probably roll once for all swarms) and swarms are concentrated enough for the Fireball to at least dish out 1/3 of it.
And in that case, it was in fact more than an easy encounter.

Otherwise, 48*5 average potential may be too hard a hit.
Let's say the lowest character in party has 16 AC - Wizard with Mage Armor for example, so nearly half hit: still 24*5 = 120, far more than any Wizard could have (or any character or that level in fact, except a Barbarian or optimized Paladin/Fighter). And without caster, exit Fireball. :)

In fact, making an encounter with just one type of enemies is always a bad idea imo. Especially with this kind, the swarms. Either the party has someone with high enough DEX and any fitting spell (like the aforementioned, but Moonbeam also could make quick disposal, or Fear to make them lose any chance to hit). Then it's just a one slot expenditure, more or less. Or the party has nothing of the like (arguably nigh impossible in a 5 man party though) and action economy is so that they get little chances to win.

@Specter: I'd strongly consider mixing both methods: pairing creatures together, and slightly adding their number, so that everyone in your party has a chance to shine and feel challenged (number of creatures > AOE so casters, high-defense creature > reliable hitters like Battlemaster or Barbarian, high-offense creatures > single-target control or debuff: casters, Monks, niche Rogue/Ranger/Fighter etc).

Like, always get 3-4 "low resilience, medium mobility, medium damage", 1 debuffer, 1 small AOE, 1 very resilient and high damage as the "core" of the encounter. Then adapt by adding traps, groups of small fry such as swarms or picking one or two creatures that are a great match for the party (ex: party with no decent Wisdom save? Caster with Fear).

And keeping a low enough total number of creatures per encounter so you can afford to keep separate Initiative for each of them (or for big groups, at least split them in 2 or 3).

Final note, keep "party smarts" in mind when designing: if players don't have good analysis skills and as such usually fail to use the right spell they have, some encounter that should have been medium could end deadly if you "counted" on it (happened to me once XD). ;)

Sorry I cannot provide better/more precise advice, no time to check in detail right now (also, I'm probably among the 10% less experienced DM in this forum about "5e encounter making", I don't follow DM guidelines that often so I can just provide general considerations that work for me).

[coolAlias]

They may start hidden, but they wont have surprise.

The enemies notice even 1 PC at the start of combat (when initiative is called for) they are not surprised. 1 hidden PC and 4 other non-hidden PCs = no surprise.

The hidden PC gets the benefit of advantage on his first attack, but (for example) cant assasinate or similar.

The game isnt designed around 1 (super deadly) encounter per long rest. It's designed (and balanced) around half a dozen encounters, broken up by 2-3 short rests. When an encounter is classified as 'hard' that is taken to mean 'hard' in the context of 'it's only one of an expected 6 encounters this day'.

You can throw a single super deadly encounter at the party from time to time (such encounters pretty much become rocket tag but hey). In fact its advisable (to mix things up). But equally, you should be throwing the occasional meat grinder at them (10+ encounters in a single day) and sticking to a median of around 6 or so encounters as your baseline.

Its easy enough to do as DM. Putting them on the clock is the easiest method. If that doesnt work tweak the rest rules (gritty realism resting works a treat) or simply rule they dont benefit from the rest (it only counts as a short rest due to *reasons*) etc.
Not sure why you were quoting me in this reply - all of this is stuff I have been agreeing with.

[Specter]

Thanks to all replies on the subject, especially this one:


The encounters lack variety for mine. You really want to mix them up, not just in encounter difficulty and solo v multiples, but also in types of monsters, and threats posed.

Here are a few ideas:

Encounter 1: 2 x Shambling mounds (increase AC to 17, Strength to 20, add +1 to hit and damage and to ability DC's) and a Call lightning trap.

The room/ area is covered in weeds, vines and foliage (creating areas of difficult terrain). Concealed in the weeds are the Shambling mounds (a DC 15 Nature Check from anyone who specifically examines the weeds/ vines on the wall detects).

In the centre of the room is a copper rod sticking up from the ground to a height of 7'. It is circled at a distance of 10' diameter a series of runes inscribed in verdigris stained greenish copper on the floor (written in druidic which warn not to cross); however the runic circle is iteself hidden under the weeds (a DC 15 [Intelligence] Investigation check detects if the PC states he is specifically searching/ clearing the ground; a PC that doesnt specifically state he is clearing the weeds to look under them is at disadvantage). A detect magic also reveals the trap (A DC 15 [intelligence] Arcana check reveals the presence of evocation magic coming from the rod to a distance of 10' around it)

A PC that crosses the runes sets off the trap triggering the encounter. PCs are surprised on round one unless aware of the Shamblers. The Trap acts on Inititiave count 20 of each round; with lightning arcing from the copper rod and targeting one randomly determined creature in the room (and all creatures within 5' of that creature) dealing 3d10 lightning damage (DC 15 Dexterity for half). The trap also targets the Shambling mounds (remember - shambling mounds are healed by Lightning damage!) who voluntarily fail their saves. A PC in metal armor makes his Dexterity save at disadvantage.

The Shamblers move to attack once the trap is triggered, or if the PCs succesfully disarm it. The trap stops functioning after 10 minutes, or if a dispell magic is cast on it. It resets each night at midnight.

The trap is disarmed with a succesful DC 20 [Dexterity] thieves tools check by chiselling out the copper in the runes breaking the circle. Failure by 5 or more sets it off.

Encounter 2: NPC Archdruid (foresight already cast and active, replace animal shapes with sunburst, replace firestorm with reverse gravity), Treant (lacks animate trees ability, reduce CR to 6) and 8 x twig blights with bows (+3, 1d6+1 piercing) (do not multiply for difficulty as they are only CR 1/8).

The Druid is here to study the trap in encounter 1 (the shambling mounds are friendly to him, and he wants to nothing to do with the worm and is avoiding him). He is barking mad, and attacks any interlopers (assuming they are here to steal his research). He has already cast [I]foresight, and tries to catch as many PCs as possible with a sunburst on round 1, before switching to sunbeam (while his minions deal with and tie down the PCs). If pressed to less than half HP he assumes Elemental form (as a bonus action) and fights on.

Encounter 3: I'd use Winter Wolves instead of Dire wolves (spammed in groups of 4). Otherwise the same encounter. (Breath weapons and AoE's make for fantastic resource drains for the party).

Encounter 4: No change. 2 x Cloakers. Likely obtain surprise.

Re Encounter 5 (the Laughing Worm) I would consider making it legendary (grant it 2 x legendary resistances, and 2 x legendary actions each turn).

It can use its Legendary actions to cast Vicious mockery (CL 17th, 4d4 psychic damage, DC 19 Wisdom resists).

It has 4 x Charmed CR 2 warrior minions (Use Orog stats).

This next bit is the most important bit:

***The worm is seeking to complete a ritual at midnight (the ritial is named 'Calling of the Worm' - if succesful, the whole region the PCs are in will be infested with Purple worms for some time).

Alternatively maybe the fighters it has enslaved are allies/ friends of the PCs, or the PCs are otherwise hired to rescue them before the worm eats them (any time now). If they save these fighters by midnight (when the worm plans on eating them) they gain the services of these 4 x NPCs as loyal companions and bodyguards as long as they treat them well, and provide for them.

Whatever the reason, the PCs are aware of the fact they are on the clock, and that long resting will have consequences.***

After I've tried the encounters, I'll come back with the results.

[Tanarii]

Malifice I may disagree with you strongly on a bunch of topics (which is its own kind of fun), but I gotta give you props, you're pretty good at whipping together a '1 adventure day' adventure. :smallwink:


This is a good idea. Ive hijacked this thread enough.Yeah, we were basically just making significantly different assumptions. Based on yours, I totally can see where you're coming from.

[Beelzebubba]

One thing I've seen that works is to have an encounter with 2-3 'stages', and calling the later ones in if the first one ends up too easy and you want to ramp up the drama.

If you do that, give some kind of foreshadowing. Critical Role did this well in the Underdark, the DM kept talking about some small earthquakes and rumbling noises, and right near the end of a combat with some Derro, another rumbling hit, then a Bulette popped out of the ground and attacked.

If it's a bit hard to do something like that, have reinforcements show up, or a regular 'patrol', whatever - just make it have a plausible rationale, and the players will probably dig it. To really sell it, between combat rounds say something like 'hold on a second' and roll dice. When you think they're ready for it, roll again, and then narrate the foreshadowing of what will show up next round.

If the first encounter is harder than you anticipated, you can 'pull the plug' on the second one, or - until you get more confident and understanding of encounter balance - set it up in a way that creates a good opportunity to retreat.

That should give you some wiggle room for a bigger, more extended encounter that you worry about.

[Whit]

I would suggest
1. Tell us briefly the scenario. Wilderness and dungeon or all dungeon etc.
2. 5 lvl 10. How is your magic item give away. Low average extra. Overbuff
3. Yes without knowing more your encounters are below average.
4. Calculate average damage output per round per character.
5 take into account ae damage from spells if you will allow it. As stated a fire ball can wipe out swarms unless already on The group
6. As for traps you can easily make them stronger or not and allow for disarm or investigate password