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Thrawn183
2007-08-07, 06:53 PM
Ok, so I'm going to be playing in an Eberron campaign that will be from level 1-15.

Stats: 14, 14, 15, 16, 14, 12 (move one point: the 15 can become a 16 if I drop another score one point, the 16 can become a 17 if I drop one point somewhere else, but can only be done to a single score).
- Currently looking at making the 16 a 17, or making the 15 a 16, either probably at the expense of the 12. (14, 14, 15, 17, 14, 11 vs. 14, 14, 16, 16, 14, 11)
- Going with 2 16's in Dex and Wis is currently the front runner, but the 15 and 17 looks nice becoming 16 and 18 at level 8.

Race: Changeling or Human (DM has ok'd Changeling Chameleon).
Tentative Build: Ninja 3/Fighter 2/Chameleon 10
- Ninja levels would probably alternate with fighter levels, especially if I choose Changeling to avoid multiclassing penalties.

Party members:
- Straight Cleric
- Swashbuckler/ToB (not sure exactly except that almost certainly heavy melee)
- Arcanist (probably Beguiler).

Hence, I'm looking at an archer build. I've never made an archer before. I've never built a skillmonkey before. This ends up being a mish-mash of both, and I'm woefully out of my league.

What I've thrown together:
1) Point Blank Shot
2F) Precise Shot
3) Manyshot
4F) Quickdraw (?)
6) Zen Archery

Eventually I plan on having a very nice wisdom score, but I'm not sure it warrents getting Zen Archery, certainly not at such a low level. Normally, Ninja would be sub-par, but I'm willing to handle it, because Chameleon will provide such a nice boost to my wisdom (and with spells like mage armor, etc... not wearing armor won't end up being such a big deal).

Are there good feats out there that utilize my ki abilities? Is there anything that works well with Chameleons? I'm in uncharted territory.

Whiplord
2007-08-07, 07:15 PM
Factotum always makes a nice lead in for chameleon. Combining those two classes reall gives an "I can do anything" feel.

Factotum 11/Chameleon 9 taking Font of Inspiration for every feat besides Able Learner (needed for Chameleon).

This lends you about 45 Inspiration points per encounter by level 20, and is quite playable in the meantime. Some fun things you can do with inspiration points:

Get an extra standard action
Cast an SLA
Get INT to AC

and a bunch of other cool stuff. For best results use the Arcane/Divine aspects of the chameleon and put the stat increases in Int and Wis.

Fax Celestis
2007-08-07, 07:19 PM
Paladin with the Serenity feat (which swaps your Cha-based attributes to Wis) might also be a viable option. You'll have to spend your featage to pick up archery stuff, but you'll get a few paladin spells, a mount, and wis-based divine grace.

Alternatively, bonus feat ranger (found in CCham, swaps spellcasting for bonus feats) might be a better choice.

goat
2007-08-07, 07:32 PM
I'm not entirely sure why you're starting with ninja? Is there any specific reason?

Thrawn183
2007-08-07, 08:01 PM
Well, Chameleon entry generally relies on taking a little bit of skillmonkey, because the majority of the requirements are ranks in skills (bluff and disguise in particular). This usually entails rogue, ninja, bard or something with the City Slicker feat to get some added to your skill list.

Once you take 1 level of a 3/4 BAB class, you might as well take 3. Not to mention that the first three levels of ninja are really nice. Ghost step and poison use are my friend.

The feat ranger is a very interesting option. Especially as I get better ranger casting as a chameleon than I would as a ranger... so it literally doesn't hurt me at all. And who can say no to full BAB plus two good saves? Man Fax, you really leave me torn now.

Ok, I'll keep poking at class choices. But how do y'all go about building a standard ranged character? I figure somewhere around level 8-10-12 I'll switch from ranged to support casting plus ranged to mostly just spell casting. Its like running into a wall made of doors that are different options.

Where is this serenity feat?

Jack_Simth
2007-08-07, 08:13 PM
How do you want to play your chameleon?

If you're playing him to the hilt as a Jack of All Trades...

NICE stat array. Leave it be; Go Bard 5/Chameleon X
Con 16, Cha 12; put the 15 wherever you like, it won't matter much. Be a Changling (it'll be FUN when the DM plays to your strengths....)

Feats:
1) Able Learner (required, only place you can get it)
3) Practiced Spellcaster (Bard) (I'll explain why later)
6) Eh, Whatever - maybe Improved Initiative; it's always useful
9) Craft Rod (you qualify, barely, due to Practiced Spellcaster; I'll explain why the choice later)
12+) Eh, whatever. You can have any one feat you like by way of the Chameleon's Bonus Feat

Skills:
Max Bluff, Disguise (for Flavor and the PrC), amd Use Magic Device (it's THAT useful), and take at least some Spellcraft (enough so that at any level where you have access to an arcane spell, you can make the "borrowed spellbook" DC by taking 10 - which, with an Int of 14, is basically just the minimum required to be a Chameleon, if you put your Stat Boost into Intelligence whenever you take the Arcane Focus) and Sense Motive (to meet the requirements), and Perform (8 ranks, one instrument only - I suggest something that doesn't require your hands or an instrument), but you'll also want some ranks in Open Lock, Spot, Hide, Move Silently, Disable Device, and Search (take them cross-class when needful; doesn't hurt due to Able Learner) ... primarily because your party is lacking a proper Rogue. You'll also want 1 rank in every knowledge skill.

Why Bard?
Well, first off, it's a Jack of All Trades from the get-go.
Second, you cannot qualify for anything based on your Chameleon focus, and you have to qualify for the feat before you can take it with the Chameleon's Bonus Feat. The Bard gives you a caster level of 5 while still meeting all your skill requirements handily, and Practiced Spellcaster boosts that up to 9 - so now you're qualified for Brew Potion, Craft Magic Arms and Armor, Craft Rod (but you're taking it in actuality anyway for a reason - I'll get there, don't worry), Craft Wand, Craft Wondrous Item, and Scribe Scroll. Basically, you'll be able to make anything except Rings and Staves by way of your Bonus Feat. If it requires a spell above 6th level, ask the other party casters. You're a crafting maniac in down-time (but not quite on par with an Artificer).

Fortunately, you can use the Chameleon Caster Level for crafting items (it's not prohibited, so it defaults to a standard caster level) - which is twice your Chameleon class level. At character level 14 (Chameleon 9, Chameleon Caster level 18) you can make Caster Level 17 Metamagic Rods. Use your Bonus Feat to get the Metamagic feat, and as you took Craft Rod normally, you can make any of the Metamagic Rods.

Basic Tactics:
Backup: With the Charisma of 12, you get your allotment of Bard spells - so you always have a little healing to fall back on.

Sneak: This will be your normal focus, as your party lacks a Rogue. Sorry. Tactics are fairly self-explanatory, though - stay out of sight, find traps, open doors.

Arcane: Ability Boon always goes into Intelligence. Between the Intelligence boost, your basic Intelligence, and the Skill boosts, you will be able to prepare any spell you have a spell slot for (and a Headband of Intellect +2 will get you a bonus spell slot for where you've got a 0 spells per day, with the exception of Chameleon-9; at that point, you'll want the +4 version) by taking 10. This basically means any captured spellbook is very useful for you. Due to your caster level mechanics, at Character Level 11 (Chameleon-6) and up, anything dependant on caster level is good - grab Greater Dispel Magic as soon as you can; also grab anything that scales well with caster level - Telekinesis and Evard's Black Tentacles (of Forced Intrusion) come to mind, but blasting works too.

Divine: Ability Boon always goes into Wisdom. Do note that you can get any divine spells from ANY divine spellcasting class - and Heal is a 5th level spell on the Adept list. Like Arcane, you'll be able to meet the requirements for casting any spell you've got a slot for. With a Peripat of Wisdom +2, you'll even have a bonus spell slot for where you've got a 0 spells per day, with the exception of Chameleon-9 (at that point, you'll want the +4 version). Due to your caster level mechanics, at Character Level 11 (Chameleon-6) and up, anything dependent on caster level is good - grab Greater Dispel Magic as soon as you can.

Combat Focus: No real strategy, here; Ability Boon goes to Strength. Use your bonus feat for whatever strikes your fancy - probably something useful with your weapon of choice for the day. Curiously, you'll be able to hit about as well as a dedicated Fighter, save for the issue with Magic Items. Smite if you want (it's funny) but Rage will usually serve you better.

Wild Focus: Normally kinda useless. Occasionally useful if you're caught without supplies for whatever reason, but that shouldn't happen often, and most times, you'll be fine with a Divine Focus and Create Food and Water.

Items:
You want something that gives a +X to all attributes, for the simple reason that it's universally useful to your role for the day. I believe the Miniatures Handbook has something for it, but also check the Magic Item Compendium. You don't want +X Swords/Armor (Divine Focus can cover that with Magic Vestments and Greater Magic Weapon - and past Chameleon-6, your caster level is high enough that you'll do a better job of that than a dedicated Cleric) but don't turn them down, either.

And, as a bonus, as you can mimic basically any class with reasonable efficiency, you can replace just about anyone you need to (temporarily, of course, unless you want to retire the character).

There's nowhere to go after Chameleon, but that won't matter too much, as the campaign lists a cap of 15.

Edit:
Some feats that will be useful for just about any focus...
1) Improved Initiative (Going first helps in any battle, regardless of role).
2) Quickdraw (whether it's wands, weapons, or rods, getting something out without spending an action is useful)

Edit 2:
If you can, convince your DM to let you use Fractional BAB and Fractional Saves - it'll boost each by 1 point at a few different levels.

As you want to play archer, Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot are your friends, as they also work with ranged touch attacks for things like Enervation when you switch out to support casting. You can use your Bonus Feat for Rapid Shot until then.

Thrawn183
2007-08-07, 10:37 PM
Yeah, the Belt of Magnificance is a pretty amazing item.

A question: If I scribed a scroll with a 6th level Bard spell, would I require a umd check to cast it? I don't know how umd interracts with spells on your spell list, but too high of level for you to cast.

I was definitely planning to get a Bead of Karma by 13th level. Casting spells at 20th caster level is just fun: hello +5 weapon, +5 armor...:smallbiggrin:

I think part of the reason I'm having so much trouble with feats is that I'm going to be doing so many different things ie. rage for melee, stealth focus (for stealth!), arcane or divine foci for spelcasting; but feats generally end up locking you into a specific role. I think that's why I like your ideas for crafting and Improved Initiative so much. The crafting helps everybody. Improved Initiative always helps, just like Quickdraw does.

tainsouvra
2007-08-07, 10:45 PM
A question: If I scribed a scroll with a 6th level Bard spell, would I require a umd check to cast it? I don't know how umd interracts with spells on your spell list, but too high of level for you to cast. You can't scribe a spell unless you can cast it.

Thrawn183
2007-08-07, 11:00 PM
Ah, but with Chameleon's arcane focus I could cast it. But without the focus I wouldn't be able to... so normally (ie. rogue build) I would need UMD, but what about if I still have lower level Bard spellcasting?

The plot thickens...

Gralamin
2007-08-07, 11:02 PM
Ah, but with Chameleon's arcane focus I could cast it. But without the focus I wouldn't be able to... so normally (ie. rogue build) I would need UMD, but what about if I still have lower level Bard spellcasting?

The plot thickens...

You get to make a Caster level check DC of the scrolls caster level +1 to use it.

Jack_Simth
2007-08-08, 06:12 AM
Ah, but with Chameleon's arcane focus I could cast it. But without the focus I wouldn't be able to... so normally (ie. rogue build) I would need UMD, but what about if I still have lower level Bard spellcasting?

The plot thickens...

It's a curious question - however, you're just forbidden to qualify for things by way of your apptitude focus; nothing else is restricted. If you've got a Bard base, a Bard spell is on your spell list, and you've got a high caster level from your day's focus, you can cast it, no problems. If you don't have the caster level from the day's focus, you need either a UMD check or a caster level check (you can pick).

Oh, and one note - while you can prepare and cast any divine spell of 6th or lower when you've got a Divine focus, and prepare and cast any arcane spell you've got in spellbook form of 6th level or lower when you've got an arcane focus, you don't have a class spell list from being a Chameleon - so if you Craft a Divine scroll of Flame Blade, you'll need to make a UMD check to use it, even if you've got a Divine focus that day.


Yeah, the Belt of Magnificance is a pretty amazing item.

It's got a cost break because *most* classes don't need all six stats (and those that do need a break anyway due to the MAD). You will need all six (charisma less than others).


A question: If I scribed a scroll with a 6th level Bard spell, would I require a umd check to cast it? I don't know how umd interracts with spells on your spell list, but too high of level for you to cast.

The caster level check is usually easier than the UMD check... but the UMD check is less risky.


I was definitely planning to get a Bead of Karma by 13th level. Casting spells at 20th caster level is just fun: hello +5 weapon, +5 armor...:smallbiggrin:

Simply getting your caster level above your character level is fun that way - even at 9th (Bard 5/Chameleon 4), that Bead of Karma gets your caster level up to 12 - which is +3 armor all around - as good as anyone can craft at that point.

The higher than normal caster level above character level 10 is one of the benefits of the Chameleon.

Oh - and do keep an eye out for a PrC you can qualify for based on your bardic abilities and skill ranks - Virtuoso, perhaps - that advances spellcasting for the off-chance that the campaign hits 16th. While you can't qualify for PrC's by way of your aptitude focus, you can apply those nifty +1 spellcasting advancements to it... and the Chameleon has a double caster level (but no more spell access).


I think part of the reason I'm having so much trouble with feats is that I'm going to be doing so many different things ie. rage for melee, stealth focus (for stealth!), arcane or divine foci for spelcasting; but feats generally end up locking you into a specific role. I think that's why I like your ideas for crafting and Improved Initiative so much. The crafting helps everybody. Improved Initiative always helps, just like Quickdraw does.
Yeah. You may end up wanting to play Human for the skills and extra feat. You might want to put the 16 in Int just for the skill points. The Jack of All Trades gets spread pretty thin - it's why the Rogue gets 8 skill points per level.

Person_Man
2007-08-08, 08:13 AM
You're going to have serious MAD problems. And Ninja, in particular, is the weakest of Skill Monkeys. Though pumping your Wis will get you a lot of Swift Invisibility uses, by mid levels you can just ask the full caster in your party to cast Greater Invisibility on you.

Thrawn183
2007-08-08, 01:13 PM
Is the trick using your bonus feat to learn new sorc/wiz spells and then scribe them into your spellbook legal? I'm not sure you technically count as knowing the spell and therefore being able to scribe it.

I might have to start a thread as a repository for great caster level dependent spells: there are a lot of spells out there that are designed for classes without full caster level progression (I'm looking at you paladin and ranger!) I might do it on the wizards forums though, don't know if it would be clutter-rific here.

Jack_Simth
2007-08-08, 04:13 PM
Is the trick using your bonus feat to learn new sorc/wiz spells and then scribe them into your spellbook legal? I'm not sure you technically count as knowing the spell and therefore being able to scribe it.

Technically legal, but there's a requirement set that makes it an almost worthless exploit:

1) You cannot use your Focus to qualify for anything (feats are explicitly listed).
2) You must qualify for your Bonus Feat normally (which means your focus for the day can't qualify you).
3) Most "extra spell known" type-feats specify that it's at the highest level you can cast, or one level below. You'll only have your non-Chameleon spell slots to pull this off with, and about the highest base spell slot build you can have in a X-5/Chameleon-Y build is going to be 3rd level (the Bard build I suggested is going to cap out knowing 6 0th, 4 1st, and 3 2nd level spells). At best, you're going to be getting a "free" 1st, 2nd, or 3rd level spell (and you still have to pay the Scribing costs) at character level 7 (Chameleon-2) - when the party Wizard is throwing around Evard's Black Tentacles of DOOM. This is going to be the peak level for the tactic. At character level 10 (Chameleon-5) you're still getting (at best, with a twinked build and JUST the right feat) 3rd level spells that way, while the party Wizard is throwing around 5th level spells. At Character level 15 (Chameleon-10) you're getting (at best) 3rd level spells that way, while the party Wizard is throwing around 8th level spells. With most such feats, you'll only be pulling 1st or 2nd level spells, and even then, it's at 7th level. A very mild savings, if it's allowed at all (and it may not be - you're not a Wizard, you may not be able to properly maintain a spellbook at all....)


I might have to start a thread as a repository for great caster level dependent spells: there are a lot of spells out there that are designed for classes without full caster level progression (I'm looking at you paladin and ranger!) I might do it on the wizards forums though, don't know if it would be clutter-rific here.
You actually want to be looking at partial casters not for scaling spells, but for early access and unique spells; for example, the Ranger gets Resist Energy as a 1st level spell (it is a 2nd level for just about everyone else); Protection From Energy, Wind Wall, and Snare as 2nd level spells (3rd level for just about everyone else). Likewise, the Paladin gets Lesser Restoration as a 1st level spell (2nd level for Clerics), Break Enchantment, Dispel Chaos, Dispel Evil, and Mark of Justice as 4th level spells (5th for just about everyone else). Holy Sword (Paladin 4) is pretty much unique to Paladins... and you can get it as a Chameleon (as it's a 4th level spell, you can get it at Chameleon-5, character level 10, where the Paladin doesn't get it until 14th level); it only lasts for one round per level, but for the duration, whatever weapon you happen to cast it on is +5 Holy (which is very useful, provided you're not Evil - in which case, it drags you down).

Most of the good scaling spells are on the primary caster lists - Greater Dispel Magic, Evard's Black Tentacles, Poison (save DC based on Caster level, not spell level), and so on.

CASTLEMIKE
2007-08-08, 06:56 PM
Consider starting out as a variant changeling Rogue - 1 for the 10 skill points (extra 8 skill points at level 1 over a standard rogue and 16 over a ninja) and Social Intuition.

Take a second level for Evasion sometime because it would always be one for PC in the future.

If you need to make lots of knowledge checks taking a third level in the Changeling Rogue for Minor Lore wouldn't be a bad idea because of the knowledge special you pick up.

A level in Beguiler would be nice for some low level spellcasting options.

I might have missed it in your OP but you need the Able Learner feat to PRC as a Chameleon and I didn't see it listed in your feat choice.

__________

What could be interesting is Changeling Rogue -1 (2 for Evasion) for the skill points and Social Intuition (Gather Information checks take 20 - 50 minutes vice 2 - 5 hours, Sense Motive checks in a round vice 10 rounds and can always take 10 on Bluff, Dipolmacy, Gather Information, Intimidate and Sense Motive checks), Beguiler -1, Bard - 1 (2 for level 1 spells), Clericist (Bardic knowledge and Turning for DMM) or FS - 1 of the Traveller.

Lots of low levels spell options from Beguiler plus a few others from Clericist or FS (Fast Healing 1) and some cantrips from Bard along with Bardic specials including Bardic Knowledge averaging out BAB.

Going 5 levels of Psychic Rogue not as good (Available for download or printing at Wizards) would give your PC 4 base PP before bonus PP and 3 level one powers (Things like Attraction, Dimenion Pocket, Disable, Force Screen or Vigor) and 1 level 2 power (Animal Affinity, Cloud Mind, Concealing Amorpha, Detect Hostile Intent, Knock or Read Thoughts) in an intrigue based campaign.

Chamelon - 10.

Thrawn183
2007-08-09, 08:52 AM
Perhaps I should have explained. I would do two or three different lists: one for spells that can be cast at lower level off of alternate spell lists. A good example is Lesser Restoration that is a level 1 Paladin spell. Another list for spells that scale well with caster level (which you can get higher than anyone else at some levels) such as barkskin, Greater Magic Weapon, Magic Vestment or Nature's Favor. Since you can get any spell off any divine list, you can find a LOT of these buffs. I would probably lump spells like Holy Sword into the list of spells that you get at lower level than you normally could. Holy Sword isn't dependent on caster level other than for duration for example.

----------

I'm going to get in contact with the player who plans to play the arcanist for the campaign and see if she really wants to play a beguiler. Taking beguiler levels when we already have one... would not be the best idea. I don't want to be stepping on her toes.

namo
2007-08-09, 01:48 PM
Perhaps I should have explained. I would do two or three different lists: one for spells that can be cast at lower level off of alternate spell lists. A good example is Lesser Restoration that is a level 1 Paladin spell.

There already is such a list on the wizards.com boards, since it is useful for the Archivist. Search for 'Archivist spell list' or some such.