[3.5] Just how far does a typical wizard go?

[AnimeTheCat]

I know that through magic amazing and crazy things are possible. What is the standard though?

For example, I know people love the ACF Abrupt Jaunt for wizards as something of a *nope* card to just about anything. A stipulation to that is that you can't use it if you're unaware of the attack. In this example, how would a wizard use this against a rogue using a ring of invisibility to sneak up on them and full attack two weapon fight backstab them? From what I read, the sneak attack damager would still happen would could potentially end the wizard without a chance. Am I missing something there?

And when you start getting in the realm of contingent spells, what is the "norm" or is there one? I know that a lot of posters on these forums will say "you have a contingent spell for that" but don't those cost resources to create? How is the wizard the same level as the rest of the party if they're making all of these contingent spells and magic items and such?

[Florian]

What is the standard though?

On an actual table, no PbP or something where you have time to think? Pretty low actually.

[AnimeTheCat]

On an actual table, no PbP or something where you have time to think? Pretty low actually.

That's what I was thinking, but I have also only ever played a Necromancer Wizard. While I loved it and having very strong undead minions to do my bidding was wonderful, it wasn't this far reaching overdeity that many would try to convince you that they are. I'm not saying they're wrong in any sense, but I don't see how it's practical unless you're just overly paranoid.

[Pleh]

The thing is that it depends on a lot of factors.

What LEVEL are we talking about?

Level 1 to 5, yeah, the wizard probably isn't preparing contingent spells yet. An invisible Rogue would be a pretty scary thing at that level. But, then again, See Invisibility is a 2nd level spell, so very attainable at that level range. Would they think ahead to prepare it? Maybe, maybe not. Would they happen to cast the spell at exactly the time in the day they needed it? Maybe, maybe not. But it could still happen, so this still comes out to maybe a 50/50 threat.

Level 15 to 20, what wizard WOULDN'T have some spell contingent to interrupt teleport to safety upon ANY source of damage normally causing them to die? It wouldn't matter where the source of the damage was coming from or how they could (or couldn't) know about it, contingency can be programmed to trigger the moment it happens, no matter the how.

Heck, at that level, you could probably do all your work from the safety of a pocket dimension and have your clones and willing pawns do your work for you so that you yourself are inaccessible to any mere rogue, even an epic one.

But you're asking the question about how does this actually play out at REAL table games.

The answer is that the Wizard doesn't try to solo games on their own. The wizard gets sneak attacked, then gets healed by the cleric while the fighter smashes the now-visible enemy rogue that attacked the wizard.

If the DM insta-kills the wizard with an invisible rogue while the party is unable to Resurrect, it was kind of a "rocks fall" kind of move. Not exactly fair play.

[Grod_The_Giant]

For your last question... The xp tables are constructed such that lower level characters get more experience. If you fall a level behind the rest of the party, you'll catch up quickly.

[AnimeTheCat]

The thing is that it depends on a lot of factors.
What LEVEL are we talking about?
Level 1 to 5, yeah, the wizard probably isn't preparing contingent spells yet. An invisible Rogue would be a pretty scary thing at that level. But, then again, See Invisibility is a 2nd level spell, so very attainable at that level range. Would they think ahead to prepare it? Maybe, maybe not. Would they happen to cast the spell at exactly the time in the day they needed it? Maybe, maybe not. But it could still happen, so this still comes out to maybe a 50/50 threat.
Level 15 to 20, what wizard WOULDN'T have some spell contingent to interrupt teleport to safety upon ANY source of damage normally causing them to die? It wouldn't matter where the source of the damage was coming from or how they could (or couldn't) know about it, contingency can be programmed to trigger the moment it happens, no matter the how.
Heck, at that level, you could probably do all your work from the safety of a pocket dimension and have your clones and willing pawns do your work for you so that you yourself are inaccessible to any mere rogue, even an epic one.
But you're asking the question about how does this actually play out at REAL table games.
The answer is that the Wizard doesn't try to solo games on their own. The wizard gets sneak attacked, then gets healed by the cleric while the fighter smashes the now-visible enemy rogue that attacked the wizard.
If the DM insta-kills the wizard with an invisible rogue while the party is unable to Resurrect, it was kind of a "rocks fall" kind of move. Not exactly fair play.

Ok, so I'm talking at any level really. I'm not starting a fight or anything either. At level 1-5, you're not likely to be coming up against assassins turning invisible and trying to backstab you, unless you do something to warrant it (like stealing from another, stronger, wizard). You'll probably get what's coming to you if you do that. But even still, at level 5 you can cast see invisibility and have it last 50 minutes. That's not even an hour and you'll still have to make your spot check to notice the rogue hiding. Wisdom isn't a commonly high stat among wizards and spot isn't even a class skill, so your wizard's spot check isn't likely to be high.

How does the contingent spell know that the damage would be enough to kill you without damage being rolled? If an attack roll was made and it met/exceeded your AC, doesn't that mean you've been hit and damage is rolled? I'm not aware of any ability that can interrupt something AFTER it's already happened. For it to work, wouldn't the wording have to be something like "upon successful contact from an enemy" or something like that?

[Zombimode]

Level 1 to 5, yeah, the wizard probably isn't preparing contingent spells yet. An invisible Rogue would be a pretty scary thing at that level. But, then again, See Invisibility is a 2nd level spell, so very attainable at that level range. Would they think ahead to prepare it? Maybe, maybe not. Would they happen to cast the spell at exactly the time in the day they needed it? Maybe, maybe not. But it could still happen, so this still comes out to maybe a 50/50 threat.

How do you arrive at these odd when the rogue could strike anytime, but See Invisibility covers only 10 min/Level? It's more like 4/96.


Level 15 to 20, what wizard WOULDN'T have some spell contingent to interrupt teleport to safety upon ANY source of damage normally causing them to die?

First, a contingency after you die is of limited usefulness.
Second, this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0928.html)

[Florian]

That's what I was thinking, but I have also only ever played a Necromancer Wizard. While I loved it and having very strong undead minions to do my bidding was wonderful, it wasn't this far reaching overdeity that many would try to convince you that they are. I'm not saying they're wrong in any sense, but I don't see how it's practical unless you're just overly paranoid.

The main difference is between acting and reacting. Notice that next to all discussion about full caster OP-ness are based on said caster taking control of the pacing. That simply doesn´t happen.

[Pleh]

Ok, so I'm talking at any level really. I'm not starting a fight or anything either. At level 1-5, you're not likely to be coming up against assassins turning invisible and trying to backstab you, unless you do something to warrant it (like stealing from another, stronger, wizard). You'll probably get what's coming to you if you do that. But even still, at level 5 you can cast see invisibility and have it last 50 minutes. That's not even an hour and you'll still have to make your spot check to notice the rogue hiding. Wisdom isn't a commonly high stat among wizards and spot isn't even a class skill, so your wizard's spot check isn't likely to be high.

And why would an invisible rogue also be hiding? Isn't the point of being invisible that you no longer need to hide? Move Silently, sure, but why Hide? Sure, you get a great bonus to hiding when you do, but why bother?

And again, in a REAL table, the Wizard isn't traveling alone. He likely has wiser, more perceptive companions who heard something walking nearby. When nothing could be seen, the Wizard casts See Invisibility just to be sure.

Perhaps now that the party has noticed something and is actively looking, the rogue might seek to hide, but now he has to hide for 50 minutes. Now it really matters HOW the rogue is invisible, because the basic Invisibility spell lasts a tenth as long as the See Invisibility spell (of the same caster level). Ring of Invisibility? Nice 20,000gp magic item to drop on a low level party.

My point being this isn't nearly as dangerous to a wizard as you're making it out to be (or else you're making it WAY more dangerous than any REAL game ought to be). PLENTY dangerous, sure. But it really shouldn't be so insurmountable, given their vast array of options. 50/50. It just comes down to, "Did the wizard decide to prepare him/herself for combating invisible enemies?"


How does the contingent spell know that the damage would be enough to kill you without damage being rolled? If an attack roll was made and it met/exceeded your AC, doesn't that mean you've been hit and damage is rolled? I'm not aware of any ability that can interrupt something AFTER it's already happened. For it to work, wouldn't the wording have to be something like "upon successful contact from an enemy" or something like that?

I suppose, but arguing about the exact trigger conditions is pretty trivial. The point being that all of a Wizard's work is already being done upon spell selection regardless, so it's just a matter of taking the time to work out a proper contingency plan (which the wizard was already planning to do). Since the wizard is among the party's most important assets, it only makes sense that one of the highest priorities in allocating wizard resources is preserving the function of the wizard.

[logic_error]

The paranoid optimization you see on the boards is generally restricted to theory. No one I know goes to the full length of protecting themselves as they are assured that the DM would not out right kill them with a sucker punch.

That said, wizards can 'easily' become immune to surprise if they are playing in Eberron with a dragon mark. Or take ten levels of Divine Oracle. Generally a ghastly trick to pull on the DM, as surprise Is the wizard's only real weakness.

[emeraldstreak]

A typical wizard goes all the way to the bank, laughing.

[Elkad]

And why would an invisible rogue also be hiding? Isn't the point of being invisible that you no longer need to hide? Move Silently, sure, but why Hide? Sure, you get a great bonus to hiding when you do, but why bother?

Because Scent, guys (or Owl/Hawk/Eagle familiars) with crazy high spot checks, dusty floors, bat familiars, and guys with See Invisibility exist. And yes, Hiding doesn't work on some of those things.
Permanency on See Invisibility is only 1000xp. That matters at L5, but it isn't crippling.

So since I'm already moving half-speed for Move Silently, I might as well at least be taking 10 on hiding. Which at L5 should put me in the 20-25 range. Good enough vs Wizard's with their cross-class spot and See Invisibility. And means I still have a good chance vs that Hawk that with +16 almost negates the +20 Invisibility bonus.

[Eldariel]

Once I reach level 11 I'd probably pack Contingency for myself and my familiar. I don't see why not. My familiar would optimally have some sense abilities: I like Pseudodragon Improved Familiar with Mindsight, though personal Mindsight would work too. Also, by level 9 I'm traveling with Teleport making it very hard for any given Wizard ('cause let's face it, an invisible Wizard is about 100 times more dangerous than an invisible Rogue) to pin me down long enough to be able to assassinate me. By level 7, I'm going to have a Skeletal Hydra or whatever and travel time I'll spend flying with Overland Flight. I'll be extra careful in settlements and minimize my time as I have no reason not to sleep in my own extradimensional space - much safer than any given inn, and I can arrange luxury to taste if I so desire. By level 10 I'll probably want to travel with Phantom Steed or an animated Zombie Dragon and by level 9 I have access to Planar Bound underlings providing me with e.g. Etherealness and Astral Projection (Nightmare).

That's how far I'd go; I'd use the core spells available at each level. Thus on low levels I'd be at significantly higher risk of a Wizard sneaking up on me and ganking me for 100 damage or some weak save SoD or Feeblemind or whatever. That's more a matter of contextual information and my company: of course I try to keep helpful allies and beasts and such and be the party taking the initiative. Before Improved Familiar, Bat-familiar gives me Blindsense and can warn me via. empathic link so the enemy at least needs Darkstalker or a lethal ranged attack for surprise. Hummingbird and its Initiative-bonus and speaking Raven for UMD are solid alternatives but generally I prefer the Bat. On level 5, I prefer to rest and prepare spells in Extended Rope Trick as that's much safer than out in the open and the whole party thanks me generally.


Post-9, it becomes very hard for a non-caster to gain the initiative on the caster. Permanency is big; you can even have permanent Arcane Sight which is amazing (everyone relevant has spells or magic items on them). They can skulk a city but I can be in any given city in 6 seconds, and I'm not confined to 2 dimensions. Casters are more dangerous, all the more reason to prepare as you can and again, have underlings/allies who can fill in your blanks as assassination attempts are a practical guarantee.

On low levels I at least make reasonable use of Detect Magic and Concentration but it's only for when things seem suspicious: yeah, an enemy aware of your position with Potions of Invis and e.g. Color Spray is like to get the drop on you on level 1 if you don't suspect anything and even with good Will-save, it's a very dangerous attack. Same with a two-handed melee attack from a high Str Ranger who drank a Potion of Invis.

[Pleh]

Because Scent, guys (or Owl/Hawk/Eagle familiars) with crazy high spot checks, dusty floors, bat familiars, and guys with See Invisibility exist. And yes, Hiding doesn't work on some of those things.
Permanency on See Invisibility is only 1000xp. That matters at L5, but it isn't crippling.

So since I'm already moving half-speed for Move Silently, I might as well at least be taking 10 on hiding. Which at L5 should put me in the 20-25 range. Good enough vs Wizard's with their cross-class spot and See Invisibility. And means I still have a good chance vs that Hawk that with +16 almost negates the +20 Invisibility bonus.

So, "the wizard is much weaker if you play him in a real game as opposed to granting him the benefit of theorycrafting"

while this hypothetical rogue is "theoretically very dangerous to the wizard"

If the Wizard is barred from meta knowledge that they need to be prepared against invisible rogues, how does the rogue get the meta knowledge that the wizard's hawk is anything more than a normal pet?

Sure, you see they have a bloodhound with them and you know you have to be a little more clever than just walking up to them. You see a dusty floor and you might think to try and obscure your footprints.

But when you think, "that +16 almost negates the +20 bonus" you're theorycrafting one side of the debate while demanding that the other not do the same. The Rogue should really be thinking, "who cares if the hawk looks at me? It clearly can't possibly see me."

ESPECIALLY an NPC rogue, who (at a real table) is meant to be an encounter to be overcome, not a means to sucker punch the wizard because otherwise the wizard is difficult to outmaneuver.

[AnimeTheCat]

So, "the wizard is much weaker if you play him in a real game as opposed to granting him the benefit of theorycrafting"

while this hypothetical rogue is "theoretically very dangerous to the wizard"

If the Wizard is barred from meta knowledge that they need to be prepared against invisible rogues, how does the rogue get the meta knowledge that the wizard's hawk is anything more than a normal pet?

Sure, you see they have a bloodhound with them and you know you have to be a little more clever than just walking up to them. You see a dusty floor and you might think to try and obscure your footprints.

But when you think, "that +16 almost negates the +20 bonus" you're theorycrafting one side of the debate while demanding that the other not do the same. The Rogue should really be thinking, "who cares if the hawk looks at me? It clearly can't possibly see me."

ESPECIALLY an NPC rogue, who (at a real table) is meant to be an encounter to be overcome, not a means to sucker punch the wizard because otherwise the wizard is difficult to outmaneuver.

I used the rogue as an example because I've run a game where the wizard was on the run (both me as the DM and he as the player sat down and built it in to his back story). He knew that attempted assassinations were a possibility and he was very paranoid about it. As a part of one of the encounters, I had a rogue (High Dex, High Cha) that was hired to "take care of him" as the BBEG of the first 6 levels of the game. In this final encounter the rogue was invisible, but knew he was targeting a wizard and didn't want to take any chances. He set up a distraction of sailors picking a fight with the party and used the distraction as a chance to backstab the wizard with poison (int reducing poison). They successfully caught/defeated the rogue but the wizard had taken int damage that wasn't being healed by magic or resting. Thus a new arc was born and they tried to figure out how to restore the wizard's int. Until that time, the wizard was reduced to 2nd or lower level spells, but wasn't dead.

That's just an example where neither party was using metagame or theory knowledge. Both characters were doing what they could best do to accomplish their mission and I used it to springboard the party in to some other cool stuff.

But just to question, if there is a wizard, and he's the bad guy, and you need to take him out. How would you do it? would you assume you know nothing of a wizard and just charge head long into a battle and get beat through all the hells and back? or would you be smart, research your target, and go after his/her weaknesses?

[Segev]

At levels 17+, the wizard has foresight active and is aware of the attack.

[AnimeTheCat]

At levels 17+, the wizard has foresight active and is aware of the attack.

Foresight at level 17 will last 170 minutes, hardly all day unless it's extended or persisted. Once it's worn off the wizard can be surprised and flat-footed again.

[Eldariel]

Foresight at level 17 will last 170 minutes, hardly all day unless it's extended or persisted. Once it's worn off the wizard can be surprised and flat-footed again.

It is, however, very hard indeed for the attacker to know whether said Wizard has the spell active and when it has run out; such things are not easy to divine. And given the unparalleled mobility and safehouses such a Wizard can access, I don't see why they'd be out and about when their protections are not active. Extended Foresight off a Greater Rod of Extend - quite affordable on this level - (let's assume he has +2 caster level, one from Archmage Spell Power and one from Orange Prism Ioun Stone) lasts for 6 hours and 20 minutes. 6 hours should be plenty of time to do all you need to do in a given day and still potentially leave slots leftover for essentials like Shapechange and Time Stop. Shapechange can do almost anything including making you incorporeal and enabling you to act from inside walls, be immune to surprise and such for 6 hours 20 seconds and when it comes down to blows, Time Stop is just one of the best combat spells in the game. This is assuming +1 specialist spell (admittedly Conjurer is probably more common than Transmuter in which case e.g. Gate is probably prepared over Time Stop) and +1 slot from high stat (28 is starting 18 + 4 levels + 6 item so a reasonable assumption even without aging, Gray Elves or such).

Of course, other avenues such as Astral Projection and indeed, acting under Time Stop for a well-timed smash'n'grab where adversaries are unable to affect you, but again, 9th level spells are 9th level spells - at that point I don't see the Wizard being seriously inconvenienced without divine intervention unless they intentionally put themselves in the harm's way. Even with Persistent Spell/Incantatrix-or-Spelldancer, extra slot/infinite slot stuff and such isn't game. Like why would a level 17 Wizard ever randomly walk into a tavern with no protections? He can do just as well without ever being present through Astral Projection, intermediaries or such - and few taverns are as pleasant as a Magnificent Mansion to where he can invite whom he likes with a bit more luxury.

[Elkad]

So, "the wizard is much weaker if you play him in a real game as opposed to granting him the benefit of theorycrafting"

while this hypothetical rogue is "theoretically very dangerous to the wizard"

If the Wizard is barred from meta knowledge that they need to be prepared against invisible rogues, how does the rogue get the meta knowledge that the wizard's hawk is anything more than a normal pet?

Sure, you see they have a bloodhound with them and you know you have to be a little more clever than just walking up to them. You see a dusty floor and you might think to try and obscure your footprints.

But when you think, "that +16 almost negates the +20 bonus" you're theorycrafting one side of the debate while demanding that the other not do the same. The Rogue should really be thinking, "who cares if the hawk looks at me? It clearly can't possibly see me."

ESPECIALLY an NPC rogue, who (at a real table) is meant to be an encounter to be overcome, not a means to sucker punch the wizard because otherwise the wizard is difficult to outmaneuver.


I don't have to meta the bonus level. I just have to know 3 basic things.
"Invisibility isn't perfect. It sometimes leaves little ripples, disturbs dust motes in the air, etc. Especially when you are moving."
"Wizards have small animals, and sometimes worse things, as pets. Those animals are smarter than usual, and can often communicate with the wizard."
"Birds of Prey have excellent eyesight."

That's enough to know that even with Invisibility, I'm not immune to being spotted.

Meta is adding up all the bonuses and saying "Well, the wizard can cast Black Tentacles, which means he is 9th level, which means his familiar has an int of at least 10 - eliminating the skill ranks penalty - which means it could have 8 skillpoints in Spot, raising it to +20. So I need to Beat a DC40 spot consistently to be 100% safe. 20 for Invisibility, 11 ranks/bonuses, and take10 does it. But I actually have a +16 bonus to Hide due to skill focus or less-than-medium size or something, so I can safely move at full speed (taking the -5 penalty) and still not worry."

[Sagetim]

Also, wizards who are team players and party members, especially ones who are trying to actually help the party succeed at whatever the task is that they are trying, tend not to be teleporting at the slightest whiff of danger. I've never actually seen contingency used by players. I think we had a grand total of it happening once by and npc, but they contingency was a buff, not an escape clause, because they were a butler/bodyguard to another npc.

You generally don't see the heady realms of Theoretical Optimization happen in actual tabletop games because you are not playing solo characters that have to do everything themselves all the time forever. You are playing a character who is part of a group, a party, a team of individuals who bring their strengths to bear together to solve problems. A cleric with a heal is more useful to you than bleeding out alone after you teleport just yourself to safety, or, if you get away safely, having to get all the way back to the place you teleported out of to either find the rest of the party dead, or Very pissed that you wussed out.

[Eldariel]

Also, wizards who are team players and party members, especially ones who are trying to actually help the party succeed at whatever the task is that they are trying, tend not to be teleporting at the slightest whiff of danger. I've never actually seen contingency used by players. I think we had a grand total of it happening once by and npc, but they contingency was a buff, not an escape clause, because they were a butler/bodyguard to another npc.

You generally don't see the heady realms of Theoretical Optimization happen in actual tabletop games because you are not playing solo characters that have to do everything themselves all the time forever. You are playing a character who is part of a group, a party, a team of individuals who bring their strengths to bear together to solve problems. A cleric with a heal is more useful to you than bleeding out alone after you teleport just yourself to safety, or, if you get away safely, having to get all the way back to the place you teleported out of to either find the rest of the party dead, or Very pissed that you wussed out.

Tactical Teleportation Contingency is more than advised. Or something like Resilient Sphere around self or whatever. Protection is good though.

Every level 11/15+ (15 for Greater Shadow Evocation) Wizard I've played with/as after our very first games has had defensive contingency/ies. PCs and NPCs alike. It's the most efficient defense. Tho some used Celerity instead.

Plus it's not wussing out, it's taking the initiative.

[Braininthejar2]

In my last campaign I used evacuation rune for escape, while using contingency offensively ("polymorph me into a hydra if I cast wraithstrike")

[Malroth]

A characters first wizard doesnt use their familiar, won't have see invisibility ready, oneshot Dies to the rogue using 12+ lv WBL. the player learns to be more paranoid.

A characters second wizard Has a Bat Familiar, Has see invisibility prepared, manages to stop one rogue encounter then dies to a second one an hour later while the party was asleep. The player learns to be more paranoid

A characters third wizard used contigency for invisibility purge and has neverskitter magnificent mansion and glitterdust prepared. They defeat both rogues but then die to some bruiser for overpreparing for an ambush. The player learns to be more paranoid.

A characters 4th wizard has magic jar/imprison posesser themselves into a dragon, took craft congigent spell and mindsight and has 20 contigencies on both themselves and their permanently invisible familiar the DM only has themselves to blame.

[AvatarVecna]

Playing a wizard who can solo most every encounter beyond lvl 5 who can circumvent most challenges takes a lot of work, but can be very rewarding for you personally - but will likely result in the rest of the table not having as much fun. It is far easier, and generally better for real play, for the wizard to act as a simple force multiplier. A wizard who plays nice with the party can be very simple to build:

Step 1) Prepare buff spells.

Step 2) Prepare BFC spells.

Step 3) Prepare versatile and/or highly useful utility spells.

Step 4) Cast your spells in situations where they are vaguely relevant.

Step 5) Bust out a super-combo when your group is in dire straits.

Step 6) Profit.

[icefractal]

Contingency (the spell) has a pretty low opportunity cost, so I'd expect one to be active at 11th+ level if the Wizard in question didn't ban Evocation, which a lot do.

Crafted Contingencies are useful, and I'd expect them to be present, but they're a pain in the ass to replace (the time cost even more-so than the money cost), and so they're generally reserved for worse case scenarios, not (as often seen in theory) to avoid ever being inconvenienced in the first place. They're also not a Wizard thing, they're an "anyone with enough resources" thing.

Here's the set of crafted contingencies one character (a Warlock) had:
freedom of movement (when paralyzed, or by winking 3x in a row), revivify (if killed), cure light wounds x10 (when revivified)


The biggest difference I see between the "ideal" Wizard and Wizards at the table is that they go adventuring for multiple days in a row. The true paranoid play is to spend about a week divining and making preparations for every one day of going into danger, but nobody has ever done that IME.

Not that they generally need to, since the theoretical Wizard standard of "defeat literally any published thing with < 1% chance of failure" is not something PCs are required to do.


Something I haven't seen, but would be interesting, is optimizing an NPC Wizard for maximum mercantile/research efficiency while still retaining sufficient paranoia to handle any normal threats with, say, 5% risk. By which I mean as little repeating expenses (such as Crafted Contingencies that get used) and as many spells/day unspoken for as possible. That would be a pretty useful resource.

[Zanos]

I would imagine that the number of wizards who prepare a ridiculous number of contingency plans is directly proportional to the number of rogues with rings of invisibility looking to instantly kill them. By sheer logic if your setting contains people looking to assassinate wizards all the time, they're going to use what they have available to defend themselves.

Some things about this specifically:

1) The rogue still needs to hit flat footed AC, which is sometimes low for wizards.
2) It's a DC 20 spot check to notice an active invisible creature. This doesn't tell you exactly where they are, but does tell you someone is invisible in your vicinity.
3) You can't move + full attack in the same round. A full attack would require a stationary wizard who failed all his spot checks.
4) By the time a ring of invisiblity is within WBL, a wizard can have permanent see invisibility for a much lower cost.

[ben-zayb]

It really depends on the particular gaming group and their optimization level, so there's exactly just no telling how far

For example, some playgroups call foul when you use Teleport to reach a place you know where you cannot easily go (e.g. where the sky meets the sea, where the road doesn't lead back to, etc.). Other groups see Control Weather as metagaming when used to make wind on yours sails stay behind you. You could probably use Wish as long as it doesn't break the campaign--like wishing to be a perfect daughter or something.

I think the idea is that everybody has a role in a party. So as a wizard, don't overshadow the other's and maybe just roll with yours. Instead of leading the party with pride, you leave such tasks to the charismatic ones and make your party strong with buffs instead. They'll be more satisfied if you played along the right optimization level. If you are in a cooperative RPG and doing everything by yourself, just ask yourself what is wrong with you.

[Zanos]

Other groups see Control Weather as metagaming when used to make wind on yours sails stay behind you.
It only has a 2 mile radius so this wouldn't help all that much. But if it did, who would consider using the spell that messes with the weather to provide a weather based benefit metagaming?

[ben-zayb]

It only has a 2 mile radius so this wouldn't help all that much. But if it did, who would consider using the spell that messes with the weather to provide a weather based benefit metagaming?
You'd be surprised with the variance of acceptable optimization levels among different playgroups then. Some high level spells (even the aforementioned Teleport and Control Weather) are just too powerful and game breaking for some

[Zanos]

You'd be surprised with the variance of acceptable optimization levels among different playgroups then. Some high level spells (even the aforementioned Teleport and Control Weather) are just too powerful and game breaking for some
That doesn't even read as an optimization blip to me...it's like taking WF(Greatsword) because you often hit things with a greatsword.

[Florian]

That doesn't even read as an optimization blip to me...it's like taking WF(Greatsword) because you often hit things with a greatsword.

Wrong way to look at it. There´s enough people that see mechanical solutions to challenges as boring, so it is kind of optimization to avoid each and any spell or item that could spoil their fun by being "too easy".

[Telok]

When doing a "play nice" wizard I generally end up watching four things: the party, the enemy, the gm/story, and my fun/effort ratio.

Help the party most of the time and dominate no more than your fair share. Weirdly magic missile-ish, grease, and glitterdust last well into the teen levels. Interrupt casters, slippery weapons, and lighting up invisibles for your allies. Energy resistance and the mass versions are also big helps.

Don't bother having the perfect counter for every enemy, tactic, or situation. Get general stuff and a few tricks to deal with what you know is coming. Primarialy focus on whatever your party is weak to, which is usually enemy casters and the occasional humongeous beat stick.

Teleport and company don't really become useful until you can move the whole party plus one and/or the loot pile. Likewise with various 'invincibility' schemes, you either share the wealth or when the inevitable counter happens you have to tank it alone.

Possibly the biggest thing is having/conserving spell slots to keep up with the party. Cast too fast and you're weighing down the party, too little and you aren't pulling your weight.

At low levels you keep behind the meat shields and cast one of your limited number of spells trying for maximum effect. Knowing your foes is really important because you have very few slots. Ye olde crossbow is completely legit here, although a partial wand of truestrike and net/bolas isn't bad either.

Up to level 10 slots are still an issue, but classic wizard mode (fireball, invis, web, etc.) is actually good. Hp and resistance haven't outstripped basic blasting, usually.

Low teens are a changeup, you can hold your 4ths for celerity, contingency a dispel or full concealment, or 'benign transposition: raging barbarian'. Teleporting the party once or twice a day, and 24 hour buffs really come online here. Huge elemental summons, forcecage, disintegrate, the way you participate in combat changes.

I've found that it starts to actually be 16+ before non-magic users really start suffering obsolescence. They still give and take damage in combat but generally lack scrying protection, real spell resistance, and counters to effects. While they will often have one or two of those things they can't have all of them without sacrificing staying relevant in the damage race. Wizarding for me took on a weird turn here, you don't have enough higher spell slots to cover the mundanes and yourself so alternative strategies came in. The high casters in our group made backups of the mundanes (combo wiz, cleric, and psi to batch up a fast demiplane with some defenses and clones) and sort of treated them like summoned/called creatures.

Actual spell strategy at that level was similar to the low teens on crack. Low and mid level spells were buffs, utility, and for dealing with some conditions. Middle-high spells were your bread and butter, serious defenses or offenses that you used pretty regularly. The 8th and 9th level spells were your big effects, real immunities to whole classes of threats and full on encounter enders. Interestingly it's similar to low levels in some ways, a few good spells used at maximum effect and feeling fragile to anything that got past your defenses. Hiding behind melee bruisers tended to be ineffective though.

Edit: Hilariously in one game ye olde crossbow came back at high levels. It became affordable to get a decent set of enchantments and a selection of multi-bane spell storing bolts. Not a lot of bolts, a wand chamber for truestrike, and a reroll or two. Good for when your major spell takes more than one round to ensure winning a combat.

[Sagetim]

I would imagine that the number of wizards who prepare a ridiculous number of contingency plans is directly proportional to the number of rogues with rings of invisibility looking to instantly kill them. By sheer logic if your setting contains people looking to assassinate wizards all the time, they're going to use what they have available to defend themselves.

Some things about this specifically:

1) The rogue still needs to hit flat footed AC, which is sometimes low for wizards.
2) It's a DC 20 spot check to notice an active invisible creature. This doesn't tell you exactly where they are, but does tell you someone is invisible in your vicinity.
3) You can't move + full attack in the same round. A full attack would require a stationary wizard who failed all his spot checks.
4) By the time a ring of invisiblity is within WBL, a wizard can have permanent see invisibility for a much lower cost.

Isn't there a pair of shoes in the magic item compendium that have charges per day and allow you to teleport short distances in as little as a swift action? I seem to recall my party's fighter having something like that in one game, very useful for getting a full attack out on someone after you charged the previous round but need to reposition. In this case, very useful for an invisible rogue to close the gap and get their full attack out from surprise and with invisibility.


Anyway, to get back to the actual topic: The typical wizard doesn't need to worry about soloing anything, just figuring out how they best work with the rest of the players in the game that is being played. If it's political intrigue focused, then divinations, enchantments, and abjurations might see much greater prominence than a game about taking on the lich king and his army of hula zombies. Sending might be the most important spell in the game when you use it to end the war with the opposing king by offering a peaceful alternative, with some well placed diplomacy and sense motive going on at the rolling level while words are going on at the roleplaying level.

[Eldariel]

Anyway, to get back to the actual topic: The typical wizard doesn't need to worry about soloing anything, just figuring out how they best work with the rest of the players in the game that is being played. If it's political intrigue focused, then divinations, enchantments, and abjurations might see much greater prominence than a game about taking on the lich king and his army of hula zombies. Sending might be the most important spell in the game when you use it to end the war with the opposing king by offering a peaceful alternative, with some well placed diplomacy and sense motive going on at the rolling level while words are going on at the roleplaying level.

It's a matter of the scenario and the party. If the rest of the party also operates on the world-altering paradigm, I see no reason not to have teleportation Contingencies up - they can also nope out in case the circumstances are unfavourable. If they can't, depends on if you can get back and if you're in mortal danger.

Teleporting offensively enables you all to instead ambush your ambusher with Teleport at an opportune moment and have the initiative. This is why picking your battles is so important, PC or NPC. Fundamentally casters are all able to operate on the same level.

Now, if the party can handle it and the Cleric/Druid has Revivify-type effects up, you can stay and fight. But staying in an ambush enemy has had the luxury of preparing without your knowing is generally a bad idea and you're generally more use to the party if you can Teleport back in and go to town compared to if you're dead.

Note that you don't need to Teleport far; 500' in an open area allows you to re-engage on your own terms. If you have Phantom Steed, you can get to Medium range cast range within a turn. In dungeons, even shorter distances suffice: most cleared rooms are like to be rather safe.

Of course, you can be surgical enough on those levels that short of Forbiddance, Dimensional Lock or similar, you can skip the excess rooms and go after the McGuffin/BBEG directly (though beware Anticipate Teleportation). In such areas you need to be extra-hypercareful and minimize your stay, and preferably first send in expendables before the party.

[weckar]

For your last question... The xp tables are constructed such that lower level characters get more experience. If you fall a level behind the rest of the party, you'll catch up quickly.This only works up to a point. Too far behind and you won't get any experience at all!

[AnimeTheCat]

Please don't misunderstand me as thinking that wizards are too over the top with the defenses. I am trying to build a baseline so that I can write some modules to challenge wizard type characters. If I have an understanding of what many consider "typical" then I can write these things in.

On top of that, I know that I can't use my groups as a baseline for this because we avoid level 12+ full casters usually. We all like a smattering of magic, but it's rare that we enjoy just solving every problem with magic. We prefer to smash a full caster with some form of martial or skillful class so the adventures we go on are typically tailored for that. I know that these experiences have jaded my opinion of full casting classes but I'm really trying to broaden my understanding of the system so that I can write these modules for others to enjoy.

[Goaty14]

Please don't misunderstand me as thinking that wizards are too over the top with the defenses. I am trying to build a baseline so that I can write some modules to challenge wizard type characters. If I have an understanding of what many consider "typical" then I can write these things in.


Wizards only get 2 spells/class level, and if the wizard has a favored school, then 1 of the 2 has to be in that school.
Sure, this crazy, all-knowing wizard could research every spell in the Spell Compendium, but knowing it takes weeks to research 1 spell, going over the 2/level would be damaging to the rest of the party if they didn't have excessive downtime, IF you do have excessive downtime; why aren't you playing a truenamer?
Overall, the average wizard I think about only buffs themselves to not get hit, i.e displacement.

TL:DR Wizards are limited to gaining 2 spells/class level, which is what I think is largely overlooked on this forum.

[AnimeTheCat]

Wizards only get 2 spells/class level, and if the wizard has a favored school, then 1 of the 2 has to be in that school.
Sure, this crazy, all-knowing wizard could research every spell in the Spell Compendium, but knowing it takes weeks to research 1 spell, going over the 2/level would be damaging to the rest of the party if they didn't have excessive downtime, IF you do have excessive downtime; why aren't you playing a truenamer?
Overall, the average wizard I think about only buffs themselves to not get hit, i.e displacement.

TL:DR Wizards are limited to gaining 2 spells/class level, which is what I think is largely overlooked on this forum.

Collegiate Wizard Feat (level 1 only) grants you 6+int mod spells at level 1 and 4 spells for every level after 1. You can also be a specialist. You could also be a domain wizard and get, effectively, 7+int mod at level 1 with this feat starting the game with 11 or 12 level 1 spells. Also, you can scribe spells from scrolls and other wizard's spellbooks. This makes an enemy wizard's spellbook and scrolls particularly valuable treasure for the wizard. Copying/adding a spell in this manner takes only one day of study meaning the wizard can add a spell to his/her spell book every day of downtime.

The downtime is useful as well for the fighter/barbarian to train their animal(s), rogue/bard to collect information, etc. Everyone can benefit from downtime, a wizard just arguably more so since downtime usually exponentially expands their capability.

What I'm gathering from the slowly petering out thread is that when people talk about what a wizard can do, they mean in TO when they have days/weeks/months/years to prepare or in PO when talking about simple defensive/reactive contingent spells that will get them through an upcoming adventure.

[Zanos]

Isn't there a pair of shoes in the magic item compendium that have charges per day and allow you to teleport short distances in as little as a swift action? I seem to recall my party's fighter having something like that in one game, very useful for getting a full attack out on someone after you charged the previous round but need to reposition. In this case, very useful for an invisible rogue to close the gap and get their full attack out from surprise and with invisibility.
Yeah, anklets of translocation. Again, the prevalence of now teleporting permanently invisible rogues is going to further decrease the number of people who could attempt such and make wizards even more paranoid.


Wizards only get 2 spells/class level, and if the wizard has a favored school, then 1 of the 2 has to be in that school.
Sure, this crazy, all-knowing wizard could research every spell in the Spell Compendium, but knowing it takes weeks to research 1 spell, going over the 2/level would be damaging to the rest of the party if they didn't have excessive downtime, IF you do have excessive downtime; why aren't you playing a truenamer?
Overall, the average wizard I think about only buffs themselves to not get hit, i.e displacement.

TL:DR Wizards are limited to gaining 2 spells/class level, which is what I think is largely overlooked on this forum.
Wizards can copy spells from scrolls and other wizards spellbooks at a rate of 1 per day.

Also the rest of the party not taking downtime is fallacious,. +1 Flaming Keen Collision Longswords and +1 Soulfire Heavy Fortification Adamantine Full Plate don't grow on trees, they're only crafted by request. Adventurers are human(oids)(usually) and most would presumably at some point like to enjoy the proceeds of their toil rather than spending every single day until they die in constant combat.

Not really sure what truenamers have to do with downtime.


Please don't misunderstand me as thinking that wizards are too over the top with the defenses. I am trying to build a baseline so that I can write some modules to challenge wizard type characters. If I have an understanding of what many consider "typical" then I can write these things in.
It depends more on your player than the class. Focused Specialist evoker with metamagic fireballs in every single one of his slots is a different beast than Elven Generalist Domain Conjurer.

[Eldariel]

Please don't misunderstand me as thinking that wizards are too over the top with the defenses. I am trying to build a baseline so that I can write some modules to challenge wizard type characters. If I have an understanding of what many consider "typical" then I can write these things in.

On top of that, I know that I can't use my groups as a baseline for this because we avoid level 12+ full casters usually. We all like a smattering of magic, but it's rare that we enjoy just solving every problem with magic. We prefer to smash a full caster with some form of martial or skillful class so the adventures we go on are typically tailored for that. I know that these experiences have jaded my opinion of full casting classes but I'm really trying to broaden my understanding of the system so that I can write these modules for others to enjoy.

Depends on the players' system mastery, certainly. I'd say using Core spells as written is a safe bet for somewhat competent people, and prioritising defense: if you survive long enough to get defenses in place you darn well wouldn't like to die to a random Goblin. So it's entirely a matter of how skilled the player is and of course, how reckless the character is. Though I doubt reckless Wizards survive long.

Thus:
Level 1 Wizard probably only has offense as their defense. Mage Armor might be too costly to prepare except for quick dungeon excursions you expect to get done within 1 hour. Generally you want as many active slots and don't want to waste any on defense. However, things like Sleep, Color Spray, Grease, Enlarge Person and company combined with likely encyclopedic Knowledge of the various creatures you are facing makes them a force to reckon with. Grease in particular doubles as a defense vs. Grapple, castable on self or teammates (and makes enemies drop weapons too). Charm Person can get you helpful meatshields or such if you have Enchantment, but is generally a non-combat/downtime spell (though it CAN be used in combat, it's impractical; rather before and alone instead of with a threatening party).

From level 0, Detect Magic is noteworthy particularly vs. illusions and invisible enemies but it's restricted to combat environments (except in PF where you can keep it up and keep focusing all day) since it doesn't have that much duration, particularly on level 1. I'd say it's practically automatic that it's available though and there's little reason to hurry ahead without focusing every round.

The only possible great defense a level 1 Wizard might have is Abrupt Jaunt. If I'm playing a low level Wizard I'd probably pick it even at the cost of the familiar (quite expensive on 1st level anyways) and just pick up Obtain Familiar later. A less experienced player or a character who doesn't care much about teleportation might not. For an experienced player I'd say it's likely game if the DM allows it and that makes his death highly unlikely as immediate action teleporting behind cover, to hiding spots or whatever makes it very hard for anyone to hit them with anything, spell or attack. But I'd say that's nerf/ban-worthy since it's so much better than all the alternatives.

Options available to all armorless characters like Hiding and Mounts are available though and Wizards have relatively good amounts of skill points and low opportunity cost and likely good Dex. Thus on this level where base is still generally more important than rank, these are ways a Wizard might make themselves harder to hit. Or Tower Shields but those are dumb as written since even a non-proficient user can get the full cover, and then you just unfasten it and drop it and do stuff when you're safe.

Level 2 Wizard can easily afford to summon a familiar. Boost to Spot, Listen, etc., doubled checks, aid another, potential blindsense or extreme skill bonuses, Hummingbird this makes approaching a Wizard much harder.

Level 3 Wizard can probably afford to prepare Mage Armor and it lasts long enough to matter. Invisibility is game too though it doesn't last long enough to use reactively. Alter Self might - it can grant +6-+8 NA, some movement modes like flight, vast NA for Outsiders, etc. for 30 mins per level. For those 30 mins the Wizard is very hard to touch. But Alter Self is busted so it might be subject to nerfs. Note that Glitterdust is also defensive; if you can roughly guess an invisible opponent's area. Fog spells can also be used for personal cover as well, but not before you're aware of the existence of an enemy. What can I say, the game favours the attacking party and that's not up to spells yet. If you're lucky enough to find some mindless undead, pick them up with Command Undead for extra tanks to protect yourself and the party from lasting damage.

Level 5 means some more mobility for everyone and Dispel Magic. Passive defenses still wait though: it's mostly about the first nuke. Again, Initiative and Dexterity are important. Phantom Steed adds a lot of mobility which adds safety but it doesn't fly yet and 5 hours isn't quite all day. And you might not want to blow your top level spell on utility quite at this point yet. Stuff like Shrink Item (Adamantine Cone-sorta stuff vs. antimagic fields, thrown giant rocks, etc.) should be a preparatory effect though and at this point the active combat awareness of the Wizard is already quite solid. Also, Extended Rope Trick is long enough to rest and prepare spells in on this level and Lesser Rod of Extend Spell or just oldfashioned use of Extend Spell makes restring particularly in the wilderness much safer. I'd expect most careful parties to make full use of this if they have to camp out; or perhaps even in an inn even if Rope Trick lacks some luxuries at least initially.

Level 7 sees the addition of Animate Dead which provides potentially very solid underlings to tank for you. Or Zombie Dragons to fly on with their vast speeds. A lot of great options. Polymorph for burrowing and such also gives some interesting new options. Also Scrying, meaning it's much harder for any known hostile party to take the initiative before you get the chance. And lots of key offensive spells. Also Improved Familiar options get good and they add a lot of defense.

Level 9 is where I'd expect a Wizard to have seriously good chances vs. even the most daring ambush. All day flight even without Zombie Dragon, Lesser Planar Binding and Dominate Person and Geas and such for superunderlings (though again, I'd expect enchantment to be banned as it loses steam swiftly after the first levels). Permanency is game so Arcane Sight can give you an all-day 120' wall-piercing warning siren against anyone with magic items or buffs or such. You could Permanency See Invis too but that seems superfluous: it's only relevant vs. like Hellcats, Will-o'-Wisps and few others. Also, Overland Flight and Teleport are game making it drastically harder for anyone to actually get the drop on you as your location becomes swiftly very difficult indeed to determine.


From level 11 onwards, I'd expect Wizards who live that long to make good and hard use of their newfound resiliency. Note, this is just with the basic use of the Core-spells; non-core stuff does add some additional options like Immediate Action defenses such as Celerity, Lesser Celerity and Greater Mirror Image further adding options. And earlier place switching/teleportation/such. I'd expect competent Wizards to do at least this much even if they aren't Incantatars/Spelldancers persisting all spells or circle magicking stuff to insane CLs for all day undispellable protections or such.

This is around what I generally see from more experienced players in basically all tables I've played in. New players are a separate matter of course.


Wizards can copy spells from scrolls and other wizards spellbooks at a rate of 1 per day.

Also the rest of the party not taking downtime is fallacious,. +1 Flaming Keen Collision Longswords and +1 Soulfire Heavy Fortification Adamantine Full Plate don't grow on trees, they're only crafted by request. Adventurers are human(oids)(usually) and most would presumably at some point like to enjoy the proceeds of their toil rather than spending every single day until they die in constant combat.

Not really sure what truenamers have to do with downtime.

Wizards can and do often also get spellbooks from defeated casters (or ones they find) and they can use those with a Spellcraft-check. And it's only 15+Spell Level, which becomes trivial rather quickly: Let's say 18 Int (so +4), 5 ranks and +2 synergy on level 2 is already +11, where you only need to roll a 5 to use a borrowed/stolen spellbook's level 1 spell (80% chance of success). And it only gets easier from there, with higher Int (e.g. Gray Elf) and company - and that's without using masterwork tools, Skill Focus: Spellcraft (gained for free from Master Specialist 1 and prerequisite for e.g. Archmage so not a trivial consideration) or company. It's also possible to scribe spells on fast time planes or whatever.

[Zanos]

Wizards can and do often also get spellbooks from defeated casters (or ones they find) and they can use those with a Spellcraft-check. And it's only 15+Spell Level, which becomes trivial rather quickly: Let's say 18 Int (so +4), 5 ranks and +2 synergy on level 2 is already +11, where you only need to roll a 5 to use a borrowed/stolen spellbook's level 1 spell (80% chance of success). And it only gets easier from there, with higher Int (e.g. Gray Elf) and company - and that's without using masterwork tools, Skill Focus: Spellcraft (gained for free from Master Specialist 1 and prerequisite for e.g. Archmage so not a trivial consideration) or company. It's also possible to scribe spells on fast time planes or whatever.
Yep. IIRC spellbooks and scrolls are both in the random loot tables as well.

And you can just take 10 on your spellcraft check to copy spells, it shouldn't really ever be an issue. Max ranks in spellcraft and 14 intelligence is enough to scribe any level spell at the point at which they become available.

[Telok]

If you want 'typical' wizards as actually played at real tables I can see about getting some of the caster character sheets from my group and distilling down to critical stats and spell lists plus notes on setting and strategy. It may be well into next week before I have the results to post though.

[Zanos]

If you want 'typical' wizards as actually played at real tables I can see about getting some of the caster character sheets from my group and distilling down to critical stats and spell lists plus notes on setting and strategy. It may be well into next week before I have the results to post though.
I don't think this is a great metric. I have around half a dozen wizard sheets and at least one StP erudite sitting around I have played at actual real tables that a good number of people would slap me for even suggesting. I also have half a dozen wizard sheets that would be dead in the first encounter in the games I played the first half dozen in.

You really need to know about the people actually in the group to make any sort of call.

[logic_error]

Which brings us back to square one. It all depends on the DM/Group.

[Telok]

Well in this case it's "hold back to let the crusader, warblade, chain tripper, archer build guys shine" levels of play. At least for some of our casters, others have had hard death splats in the same game.

You know, player>build>class, the usual.

[JbeJ275]

It really depends on the particular gaming group and their optimization level, so there's exactly just no telling how far

For example, some playgroups call foul when you use Teleport to reach a place you know where you cannot easily go (e.g. where the sky meets the sea, where the road doesn't lead back to, etc.). Other groups see Control Weather as metagaming when used to make wind on yours sails stay behind you. You could probably use Wish as long as it doesn't break the campaign--like wishing to be a perfect daughter or something.

I think the idea is that everybody has a role in a party. So as a wizard, don't overshadow the other's and maybe just roll with yours. Instead of leading the party with pride, you leave such tasks to the charismatic ones and make your party strong with buffs instead. They'll be more satisfied if you played along the right optimization level. If you are in a cooperative RPG and doing everything by yourself, just ask yourself what is wrong with you.
And once you haves buffed them What can you say except you're welcome :biggrin:

[unseenmage]

In my experience how 'paranoid wizard' my character goes largely depends on what resources are available.

If I have Energy Transformation Field and Smoky Confinement available then I am much more likely to walk around with them stashed in an Enveloping Pit/Portable Hole stuck to the shield of my Shield Guardian.

I've played in a real tabletop game where I was allowed infinite gp before. That character, an artificer, DID go full on paranoid; BUT he was also being pitted against nigh epic threats at level 11.

In the above game every book, magazine, etc was allowed. I forbade myself only Wish, Miracle, Genesis, and Gate. Because everything was okayed, I attempted to use everything.

My characters don't usually go that far because my GMs usually don't pit me against nigh epic threats while also granting me infinite wealth.
So it boils down to opportunity and incentive.


For your situation I would advise writing for wizards based on core only with a eye towards thr more general weaknesses that other APs attempt to exploit in full casters, the very fact that they ARE casters.
Magic, generally, is a flashy and loud enterprise. Capitalize on that by introducing a stealth mision or two.
Casting is easily magically detrcted, and there are several creatures who actively hunt/prey upon/consume magic. Use that.

I suggest to try less to guess what kinds of wizards will see play and more to simply guess that casters will see play and adjust accordingly.

Can the paranoid wizard prepare for every eventuality at their given level? Probably not, especially with rule zero in mind.
Can a prospective writer prepare for every possible average wizard to play in their adventure? Probbably not, especially with rule zero in mind.
GMs will change what 'average' means at their table and this will have a profound impact on the possible characters AND how they handle a given adventure.

[AnimeTheCat]

hmm... I guess a natural flow for this conversation is, What keeps a wizard up at night? How do you challenge a wizard player? How do you effectively remove a wizard as a threat without killing them?

[Afgncaap5]

hmm... I guess a natural flow for this conversation is, What keeps a wizard up at night? How do you challenge a wizard player? How do you effectively remove a wizard as a threat without killing them?

Have the player establish a quest, a status quo they care about, and people that they like. Then hold 'em hostage. It's a standard superhero plot, to be sure, and it requires some roleplaying on the part of both the player and the DM, and it assumes that you have a player who hasn't acquired a statue made of elephant ivory and who stockpiles the eyelashes of ogre mages, rakshasas and the like for the purpose of casting contingency on every lousy NPC they grow attached to, but I assume if there's a gentleman's agreement for fair play in the name of story at the table then that should work out nicely.

...is it weird to me that I'm actually wondering if agreeing to play for a story is more rare than stockpiles of rakshasa eyelashes?

[icefractal]

Have the player establish a quest, a status quo they care about, and people that they like. Then hold 'em hostage.Use this one with caution though. Some people like it, some people really don't, and over-using it is how you end up with literal murderhobo characters who have no friends or relatives. I'd advise to start relatively small and see what the reaction is.

[Endarire]

The answer is "Depends on details."

In play, spells are a finite resource. Each spell is effectively a special effect button. 3.5 Wizards have generally had few viable options when not using said buttons or items that act as such buttons or other reliable beings that are contextually viable.

[Eldariel]

hmm... I guess a natural flow for this conversation is, What keeps a wizard up at night? How do you challenge a wizard player? How do you effectively remove a wizard as a threat without killing them?

Wizard is awesome when they get to prepare for a scenario. Thus unexpected but logical turnabouts and sudden new threats are more challenging for them than average. You know the like, the real power behind who you thought was the BBEG is something totally different and suddenly the scenario is something you're not at all prepared for. Of course, their normal array of spells still keeps them competitive, but they'll have less surgical tools for the problem.

Wizard specifically needs rest (Nightmare-spell or such are annoying) and have spellbooks (but since Clerics, Druids, Sorcerers, Eidetic Wizards, Psions, Erudites and company don't, that's not a generic caster matter). Wizards make a lot of use of extradimensional spaces so places where access to such is limited is annoying to them, but of course they'd rather not enter such places unprepared of their own volition. In general, other full casters can give Wizards a run for their money and Wizards are less than amazing in enclosed spaces that prevent dimensional travel - just don't make it the default though. Also enemies who can turn their underlings on them are something to note.

I prefer writing modules that specifically plan around having a Wizard and making them use their powers and then when push comes to shove, work together. Like the Bastion of the Broken Souls module limits divination due to the Ban of the Unborn or some such, and still makes heavy use of Scrying, Teleporting, Plane Shifting and such. That's good design for a 16th+ level adventure. Make magic a part of the module and design around it, not something that breaks everything you planned. Ride the wave and make the casters a part of the module - at the cost of making it very hard for non-casters but just make that explicit in the design. A party near the same tier makes this work.

Oh yeah, some of my favourite caster elements are when I can prepare just few spells or have just few spells remaining and suddenly have to do something I didn't anticipate now. Like bail my party out of an execution, get out of a trap, reacquire my spellbook or such. It's like a good puzzle without a premade answer - I have to conjure one up myself on the spot. These come back to the unexpected contingencies and limits/enemy casters checking your casters.

Ultimately casters are creature of information. Thus it's not so much the tactical combat but the strategic information they fight over and if they reign supreme, they're very hard to hold back but if someone is few steps ahead of them, they might think they have everything covered but they don't. Play the characters, their own motives and desires and abilities, and work from there. Like the Rogue, if the level 5 Wizard knows one notable (level 6 is notable) assassin of notoriety (if he's really good he might just be a death's shadow nobody knows) is hired to kill him and about knows the target, it's a game of cat and cat and the Wizard has the edge. But if the Wizard thinks he knows things but actually doesn't he's at a risk. Make it about information of things going on in the city and such - that's a game casters thrive in but don't necessarily dominate. One Charmed stooge in the assassins' guild can suddenly spill the beans but he can just as well have been discovered and be kept in the dark lulling the Wizard to a false sense of security. Which might or might not matter.

EDIT: This is a topic I'd have a lot to say about and a lot of work editing the ideas into a more coherent whole as it's something I've never properly spelled out before. I'm really sad I'm short on time and I'll try to be more comprehensive in the future.

[Florian]

hmm... I guess a natural flow for this conversation is, What keeps a wizard up at night? How do you challenge a wizard player? How do you effectively remove a wizard as a threat without killing them?

Interesting.

When designing a scenario, I always aim to incorporate the current power level and available options of a potential party. This means that I expect things like flight, teleportation, binding outsiders for favors or information or speaking with the dead to happen and base my design decisions around that.

[Arbane]

Too Far.

It's the only place they have left to go.

[logic_error]

Just to add to the possibilities it is totally viable around level 9 to have a wizard that can alt best deal with anything you throw at him or run away without a scratch of he does not like it.

Hopefully, this latter part actually tells you what a real wizard can do.

Of course, it s equally possible to have a wizard played badly, so that he has no clue what he is potentially capable of.

[Thurbane]

What happens at actual table play can vary hugely from practical and theoretical optimizations discussions online.

I'm sure there are some tables out there that play at near TO levels, but my own experience shows that kind of game is the exception to the norm.

Thing is, a fully optimized Tier 1 character could be almost unplayable in a real game, for a couple of reasons.

1. If other PCs in the group aren't at that power level, they just get to sit back and watch while the Batman Wizards and Codzillas breeze through every encounter in a round or two.

2. It can become a nightmare for the DM to come up with adventures that challenge the player/party, and most of what does actually challenge them (i.e. similarly optimized NPCs for the most part) will come down to a game of rocket tag.

Again, anecdotal evidence only, but despite what you may hear online, people do actually play Fireball hurling Wizards and Healbot Clerics IRL, alongside Fighters and Monks. And the groups do actually enjoy their games, despite a lot of finger waggling and "badwrongfun" accusations being made by the virtual community.