Which one is better mage initiate or spell sniper

[Whit]

Only regarding these two feats.
Mage initiate get 2 cantrips which can be at your level and (1 lvl 1 spell 1/day cast at lowest lvl)
As a wizard with fire blast cantrip I would think warlock eldritch blast it increases with level does force damage and later on 4 separate hits. 4x1d10 bolts. And fire bolt is 1x4d10. and hex as lvl 1 spell at lowest level 1/day doesn't change at all and adds 1d6 to damage spells for 10 rounds and gives disadvantage to an ability no save
Now if you pick cleric do you get the spells from a god or just studying and turning it to weave casting ?
The other cantrip either chill touch which increases by level up to 4d8 and gives undead disadvantage vs you.
Or friends advantage on charisma rolls on interaction but the person will know And be angry later on.

Or spell sniper ignore up to 3/4 cover , double range of attack spells and learn 1 attack cantrip eldritch blast. I was thinking cover may be used sometimes and most range spells at 12 hex is far enough. What do you guys think is better.

[Joe the Rat]

It really depends on who you are, and what you want.

Your example is focused on attack cantrips, which makes spell sniper a fair comparison.

Magic Initiate: 2 cantrips and a 1/day 1st level spell, using the casting stat of the class you are learning from. You also now count as a spellcaster.

Spell Sniper: prerequisite: Must be able to cast spells. You gain one cantrip with an attack roll from a class of your choosing, using the casting stat of that class. You also get the ability to ignore 1/2 and 3/4 cover, and double the range of all your attack roll spells.

If you are already a caster, Spell Sniper adds to what you can already do, and something that you can't get through other means.
Magic Initiate would be more about adding utility - accessing spells outside your normal list. But it's going to have more impact for a non-caster.

And to reiterate, you use the casting stat of the class you are pulling from - so MI: Warlock or Spell Sniper (Eldritch Blast) means the Eldritch Blast still uses Charisma for attack rolls. If you go the MI, you'd be better off picking utility cantrips, and use your wizard slots for attack spells. Hex applies to all your attacks (any time you roll to hit), so it works just fine with your own spells. If you want the EB, Bard or Sorcerer works better since they already use Charisma.

[Falcon X]

I'm a bigger fan of Spell Sniper.
Magic initiate has just never been worth a feat for me. However, getting a great cantrip and powering it up with range and ignoring cover is great to me.

[MeeposFire]

One big difference is that spell sniper requires that you can cast already but magic initiate does not.

Also I am a big fan of magic initiate since there are a few 1st level spells that are awesome even 1/day (find familiar) and two cantrips can be a lot of fun though I tend to use it for utility rather than attack spells.

[Theodoxus]

I like MI, and consider it 'better', if I'm gaining an ability that augments something I'm doing already. Grabbing Shillelagh on a (non-Nature) cleric reduces MAD, needing only enough STR to worry about heavy armor (if you're a Life Cleric, say). It also allows you a different ranged attack option (Poison Spray, Thornwhip, Produce Flame) than just Sacred Flame (or Toll the Dead if using UA spells) as well as Goodberry shenanigans...

However, I wouldn't mix casting stats, unless you're needing pure utility, though I tend to find Ritual Caster is better all around for that. (No cantrips, but the utility of rituals in general is hard to beat, provided your DM is kind enough to provide them to you.)

About the only time I've considered Spell Sniper was with a Warlock sniper build using Eldritch Spear and Spell Sniper to maximize the range on EB. 600' range is pretty sweet for remaining anonymous with your attacks... though you do lose out on Hex at that range - but the 120' Hex range means you can still be out of threat from most ranged attacks and all melee for a few rounds on the average combatant...

[Lord Vukodlak]

Magic Initiate, if spellsniper let you do things like sharpshooter to actually buff the damage of your cantrips sure I could see it being more useful.

But Magic Initiate either gives spells to someone who doesn't have them or give someone with spells access to spells they wouldn't normally have access to such as hex valuable to anyone making multiple attacks. A melee rogue could learn green-flame or booming blade. You make a melee attack as part of casting the spell and you only have one attack a round anyway.

[lunaticfringe]

Spellsniper if I'm Land Druiding, MI otherwise. Druid cantrips have terrible range & Thornwhip is awesome with 60ft range.

[toapat]

I'm a bigger fan of Spell Sniper.
Magic initiate has just never been worth a feat for me. However, getting a great cantrip and powering it up with range and ignoring cover is great to me.

the way i viewed it was basically this: Magic Initiate is for Plebe classes that dont get fullcasting or fullcasters that can get that little boost out of the few extra real options for the class

Spell Sniper is for blasters to improve their mechanics

[Khrysaes]

Spell Sniper + Eldritch Blast + Eldritch Spear is fun, BUT...

Yeah on a wizard Eldritch blast will be less viable because you would be using you Cha to attack.

A Cleric for Message and Guidance wouldnt be bad though.

[Syll]

I would typically say MI, but Spell Sniper is better if you're going for certain builds.

ex: Spell Sniper + Booming blade will let you use booming blade w/ a reach weapon, which is nice if you're comboing it w/ PAM.

[Bahamut7]

It depends on the character. If it fits your character, then you take the appropriate feat.

Magic Initiate grants limited magic to a non-caster which offers fantastic role playing and mechanical benefits. If you can already cast, spell sniper makes you better at it.

[Random Sanity]

600' range is pretty sweet for remaining anonymous with your attacks...

I have this mental image of a Warlock using opera glasses to aim their spells.

[Matrix_Walker]

MI is far more versatile a boost and adds a flavor dash to any class.


But if you're a pole arm wielding character who already has spells and is looking to pick up booming blade or green flame blade to use at reach....

[mephnick]

But if you're a pole arm wielding character who already has spells and is looking to pick up booming blade or green flame blade to use at reach....

Whip Arcane Trickster mmmmm

[Sigreid]

the way i viewed it was basically this: Magic Initiate is for Plebe classes that dont get fullcasting or fullcasters that can get that little boost out of the few extra real options for the class

Spell Sniper is for blasters to improve their mechanics

Spell sniper is to give paladins a solid very long range option in EB.:smallbiggrin:

[Joe the Rat]

I also rather like spell sniper for the 60' thorn whip. Yank those sneaky bastards out from behind cover / off of balconies.
And it's a melee spell attack, so no worries about adjacent enemies throwing off your aim.

[lunaticfringe]

I also rather like spell sniper for the 60' thorn whip. Yank those sneaky bastards out from behind cover / off of balconies.
And it's a melee spell attack, so no worries about adjacent enemies throwing off your aim.

+ Druids aren't hurting for AoE Concentration Battlefield Effects. It combos fairly well with their natural Controlliness.

[Citan]

Only regarding these two feats.
Mage initiate get 2 cantrips which can be at your level and (1 lvl 1 spell 1/day cast at lowest lvl)
As a wizard with fire blast cantrip I would think warlock eldritch blast it increases with level does force damage and later on 4 separate hits. 4x1d10 bolts. And fire bolt is 1x4d10. and hex as lvl 1 spell at lowest level 1/day doesn't change at all and adds 1d6 to damage spells for 10 rounds and gives disadvantage to an ability no save
Now if you pick cleric do you get the spells from a god or just studying and turning it to weave casting ?
The other cantrip either chill touch which increases by level up to 4d8 and gives undead disadvantage vs you.
Or friends advantage on charisma rolls on interaction but the person will know And be angry later on.

Or spell sniper ignore up to 3/4 cover , double range of attack spells and learn 1 attack cantrip eldritch blast. I was thinking cover may be used sometimes and most range spells at 12 hex is far enough. What do you guys think is better.
There is no better.
This comparison, sorry to say, makes absolutely no sense.

Either you are looking for a ranged attack cantrip to shore up a weakness, in which case Spell Sniper will most always be the better choice.

Or you are looking for a very specific 1st level spell (Find Familiar, Shield, Bless, Mage Armor) then Spell Sniper is irrelevant in the first place.

Or you are just looking for a way to expand your options then Magic Initiate is obviously better because you get two cantrips instead of one (and in a larger choice).

Otherwise said...
The main reason to pick Spell Sniper is that you want to become great at spell ranged attacks (either straight from the chosen cantrip, or because it also affects any other spell you know that would apply). It's extremely focused on encounter offense.
The main reasons to pick Magic Initiate is to get ahold on a combination of cantrips and/or spells. So basically any other goal than "being great at ranged spell attacks": it could be to get melee offense options, defensive options, utility, etc...

They both cater to very different use-cases overall. So whichever would be the best can only be decided on a case by case analysis.

[Chugger]

Spell Sniper has many positive features, but Magic In., for a clever player, can be amazing.

There is no wiz or lock in your party, and your sorc has picked mostly damage cantrips. Let's say you're a druid going moon. As a huVar at level one you can add to your repertoire two very cool and useful cantrips. Mage hand means you can open doors and boxes and w/e from 30' away, maybe not dying when the trap goes off. You do all sorts of useful. fun and colorful things w/ mage hand, if you think about it. Are you not allowed to meta-game? But you really need to tell the character sneaking ahead not to do something stupid? Message is a godsend in this case. Message has many uses - but again is campaign dependent and requires an imaginative player. Minor Illusion - can be amazing. There are other cantrips, but I'm for now focused on Magic Init and Wiz for a reason.

This is because you can pick as your level 1 spell Find Familiar. You get an amazing little scout that can possibly fly (or swim) - you can see through its eyes up to 100' or so - and it can assist you in combat, giving you advantage. You can tuck it into a dimensional pocket and resummon it, if you need to, and if it dies you pay 10g to resummon, iirc. A disposable scout that can't permanently die is amazing. I'm shocked at how many players don't realize this.

You only get to cast the first level spell once per day, but you can pick Mage Armor which lasts 8 hrs - i.e. a typical full day - w/out concen.

To use scaling, damaging cantrips look for ability synergy. A pal going magic init to get E blast from a lock or firebolt and that cold ray that slows from a sorc would share the cha thing and work. An EK taking a wiz firebolt would work as the ek needs int.

I can't begin to cover the useful things.

ALSO I need to point out that a related feat should be considered here - ritual caster. One of the most powerful 5e spells ever is Leomund's Hut. Why? Ritual cast and it's a safe and very protected place to do short and even long rests. Rope trick is better for a short rest cuz there is no evidence of where you are (unless dm's have extra-dimensional creatures come after you , but this is not in the rules). RT is not ritual however. And L's Hut is. I'd say worse case scenario for the hut is that a smart evil powerful thing notices the hut and waits to ambush you when you come out - if it's invisible, it could be a challenge. Or a nasty caster with that earth cantrip removes all the dirt from under the hut - but you'd see that happening from within - well, the hut is not "perfect" - but in general with 5e what you need is a safe place to rest throughout the day to get back health and abilities and with some classes getting back spent spell slots. If you're lvl 8 going feat you can just pick leomund's hut - and have it in your book. If you take the feat at lvl 4 you'll need to have or find a copy of LH and spend the money to copy it into your ritual book (when you hit lvl 5) - but it's an amazingly useful and powerful ritual spell - and one that many wizards just blow off - and I still don't get that - they want to blast and don't understand w/ LH _in their book_ - i.e. not memorized - but just in their book they can be amazingly useful to the party - a safe rest on the way to a bad fight can mean success or failure! All for a little 10 min ritual cast that doesn't eat a slot.

[Gignere]

I would typically say MI, but Spell Sniper is better if you're going for certain builds.

ex: Spell Sniper + Booming blade will let you use booming blade w/ a reach weapon, which is nice if you're comboing it w/ PAM.

Not sure I understand this combo. Booming blade requires a cast a spell action to use PAM you need the attack action. They don't mix at all. I think you mean it combos great with a reach weapon. My preferred is BB + whip if using spell sniper.

[Theodoxus]

Not sure I understand this combo. Booming blade requires a cast a spell action to use PAM you need the attack action. They don't mix at all. I think you mean it combos great with a reach weapon. My preferred is BB + whip if using spell sniper.

Well, if you've spent 2 additional ASI (or vhuman and 1 ASI) on the feats PAM and War Caster, you can cast BB as a reaction when they get within 10' of you, and then again when it's your turn... Optimal? Probably not - though if you have Sentinel as well, and make them stop 10' from you - you could attack, casting BB again and move back 10' to see if they come at you, repeating the process... Ton of feat tax, and very one trick pony, but viable (probably only really viable with (really well) rolled stats...)

[90sMusic]

Depending on the group, campaign setting, etc etc etc, I will sometimes take Magic Initiate on a Rogue.

You can get Cure Wounds as your once a day spell which can be used to bring your actual group healer back up if he loses consciousness. You can get Spare the Dying as a cantrip to prevent your allies from bleeding out during or after a fight if the **** hits the fan and your healer can't do anything about it for whatever reason.

AS your other cantrip, you can get guidance which you can just cast on yourself whenever you want and add a 1d4 to any ability checks you make to help you pick those locks, stealth, deceive people, look for traps, etc.

It's very useful.

Spell Sniper is great for warlocks who already have agonizing, eldritch blasts. You ignore cover so don't have to deal with that, you double your range up to 240 feet which is more than enough for any combat map, etc. For the cantrip, you can get Chill Touch. It is an extremely useful and often overlooked cantrip because when you hit something with chill touch, it can't get healed in any way until the start of your next turn which you can then just cast it again. Assuming you keep hitting it, you can prevent anything from being able to heal. Troll? No problem, chill touch. Vampire crazy regeneration? No problem, chill touch. Fighting enemies that have a healer in their party? No problem, chill touch.

[MeeposFire]

Well, if you've spent 2 additional ASI (or vhuman and 1 ASI) on the feats PAM and War Caster, you can cast BB as a reaction when they get within 10' of you, and then again when it's your turn... Optimal? Probably not - though if you have Sentinel as well, and make them stop 10' from you - you could attack, casting BB again and move back 10' to see if they come at you, repeating the process... Ton of feat tax, and very one trick pony, but viable (probably only really viable with (really well) rolled stats...)

You would need to have spell sniper too if you want to use booming blade 10 feet out as booming blade has a range of 5 feet.

[ShikomeKidoMi]

Spell Sniper is great for warlocks who already have agonizing, eldritch blasts. You ignore cover so don't have to deal with that, you double your range up to 240 feet which is more than enough for any combat map, etc. For the cantrip, you can get Chill Touch. It is an extremely useful and often overlooked cantrip because when you hit something with chill touch, it can't get healed in any way until the start of your next turn which you can then just cast it again. Assuming you keep hitting it, you can prevent anything from being able to heal. Troll? No problem, chill touch. Vampire crazy regeneration? No problem, chill touch. Fighting enemies that have a healer in their party? No problem, chill touch.

Speaking of warlocks, if you're a fighter that wants a little extra offense grabbing Mage Initiate and taking Hex is a good way to gain even more Nova ability.

Cast Hex as a bonus action, action surge, get 1d6 extra damage on numerous attacks.

[Trampaige]

I think they forgot to include War Caster.

PAM = AoO at 10' reach
Spell Sniper = Get Booming Blade, range is now 10'
War Caster = Spell can be used as AoO

It all works together to be a hell of a lot of area control.

Well, it's from Mearls, but the sage advice on that is you have to use the polearm to make the opportunity attack, can't sub it with warcaster.

https://www.sageadvice.eu/2014/09/16/polearm-caster/



Same way it isn't valid if you use sentinel, because warcaster calls out movement provoking opportunity... and the sentinel attack isn't an attack of opportunity anyway.

https://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/05/09/can-i-with-war-caster-feat-cast-a-reaction-spell-on-opportunity-attacks-triggered-by-the-sentinel-feat/

Your table may vary.

[Chugger]

Speaking of warlocks, if you're a fighter that wants a little extra offense grabbing Mage Initiate and taking Hex is a good way to gain even more Nova ability.

Cast Hex as a bonus action, action surge, get 1d6 extra damage on numerous attacks.

And a warlock slot recharges on a short rest...except the slot granted by magic init doesn't. This is good for one fight a long rest. Well, more than one if the fights are within the hour. Hex at low lvl lasts about that.

Find familiar to get an owl (with flyby) - and if you're careful with it and keep it out of where aoe spells might nail it - you might be able to get a heck of a lot of advantaged attacks all day long. If you can keep the owl alive. And it can scout for you. And if there's a weird symbol on the floor and someone has to touch it - but you're scared it does mega-death if it's trapped - you can sac. the fam.

The point is that fams have a lot of use. Hex for a few fights a day is not bad, either. Iirc hex is a concentration spell. Find Fam isn't.

[SharkForce]

Well, it's from Mearls, but the sage advice on that is you have to use the polearm to make the opportunity attack, can't sub it with warcaster.

https://www.sageadvice.eu/2014/09/16/polearm-caster/

conveniently, booming blade is perfectly capable of using your polearm to make the opportunity attack.

[samcifer]

I have this mental image of a Warlock using opera glasses to aim their spells.

With Distant Metamagic, you can become a true arcane sniper by picking off foes from 600' feet, 1200' if you have Eldritch Blast and Eldritch Spear, which is one of the things I'm aiming for. (I'm playing a home-brewed campaign with a good amount of outdoor encounters where distance has played a role).

[8wGremlin]

conveniently, booming blade is perfectly capable of using your polearm to make the opportunity attack.

It is, if they are with in 5' as the spell states. that's the kicker...

[SharkForce]

It is, if they are with in 5' as the spell states. that's the kicker...

spell sniper is *literally* in the title of the thread. that means double range, which brings it to 10 feet.

[djreynolds]

MI is nice for a fighter. Protection from evil/good is 10 minutes in duration (AFB) or hex is good for an hour

And adding any cantrip is good as well, and no pre-requisite.

And if you add spell sniper to this after.

Both are great feats.

[8wGremlin]

spell sniper is *literally* in the title of the thread. that means double range, which brings it to 10 feet.

I think we are arguing the same point.
Normal = 5
Spell sniper = 10

Thus if move out of threat range and you have both warcaster and spell sniper you can booming blade at 10’ which is your reach.

What is PAM’s interaction on this though, what’s your opinion?

[SharkForce]

I think we are arguing the same point.
Normal = 5
Spell sniper = 10

Thus if move out of threat range and you have both warcaster and spell sniper you can booming blade at 10’ which is your reach.

What is PAM’s interaction on this though, what’s your opinion?

works just fine, as i already said. with those three feats, someone wants to move next to you, they get to 10 feet, you can make your opportunity attack with the polearm and casting booming blade. someone wants to move away, same thing happens. (though of course, only if you have your reaction available).

yes, it is pretty powerful. it's also 3 feats and only happening once per round.

[8wGremlin]

PAM means you can pop them when they first enter your threat range at 10', not just when they try to disengage after being in melee with you. (2nd bullet of the feat.)

So, for most creatures (with 5' reach), you get the full damage capable of the spell before they even get a crack at you - (weapon + Xd8 on Attack of Opportunity) + (Xd8 when they move) - or they are forced to stop moving. Win/win.

Read the last one here - Mearls: "that chain should work"
https://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/03/12/can-you-combine-spell-sniper-war-caster-and-polearm-master-with-booming-blade/


Excellent - it's a large investment 3 feats, and a cantrip, but very cool.

What's the earliest level you can pull this off?

[MeeposFire]

Excellent - it's a large investment 3 feats, and a cantrip, but very cool.

What's the earliest level you can pull this off?

A variant human EK could do this by level 6 with no rules changes.

[miburo]

The PAM combo is doable, but 3 feats is a large investment for something you might have the opportunity to do only once per round. More power to the player though if that's what they want.

Back to OP, they are both useful feats for very different reasons. IMO Spell Sniper is almost mandatory for an Eldritch Blast-oriented Warlock. Longer range and you ignore cover. As a secondary cantrip you could take Shocking Grasp (Sorcerer cantrip so Cha-based) so you have a melee backup that also helps you disengage.

MI might be useful for Fighters, Rogues, and Paladins to give more options--SCAG cantrips like Booming Blade, ranged cantrips like Eldritch Blast, utility stuff like Minor Illusion, utility 1st level spells like Mage Armor for Dex character, Find Familiar for scouting, etc.

[Frilf]

You could pull off the booming blade PAM combo multiple times per round with 3 feats (MI, PAM and WC) if you go 18 levels into Cavalier (XGtE), which, with the Fighter's number of ASIs would leave you plenty of power ups for your other stats. Then, you get that ridiculous top-level ability at 18th level that gives you a "special reaction" on every other creature's turn, where you could theoretically pull off the combo several times in a round, especially when melee fighting the foot soldiers of the BBEG. Just wade in and... Vegematic. Problem with a local orc tribe? Not anymore!

Also, Cavs basically get the Sentinel feat for free as one of their class abilities, too (IIRC). Hold the line? No problem! Could be fun build if you campaign goes that long.

[Peelee]

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