Dread Necromancer prestige class. What should I go for?

[Sergio]

I've found three different handbooks going for different opinions:

> One suggests leaving at 8
> One suggests leaving at 12
> One suggests not leaving at all.

Can someone explain me the choices that are available by leaving at certain levels (8-12-...)?

[nolongerchaos]

For maximum Minion-mancy, it's best to stay DN 20 due to Undead Mastery being based on class level.

Some guides mistakenly read Undead Mastery's scaling by class level to mean it scales by character level, hence them saying to leave DN once you hit 8 and get that ability.

As for 12th, I don't know... Maybe they were waiting to get into a PrC that they didn't qualify for until 12th? Maybe they wanted Enervating Touch and/or a new Advanced Learning spell? I really have no other ideas on that one.

[ATHATH]

Rainbow Servant's pretty good, and dips in Prestige Bard and Paragnostic Apostle are decent.

If you plan to PrC out of Dread Necromancer, though, leave before level 8- otherwise, Undead Mastery will gimp your control over undead instead of buff it.

[Insert obligatory mention of the Arcane Disciple, Mother Cyst, and Cerebrosis feats here]

[nolongerchaos]

Rainbow Servant's pretty good, and dips in Prestige Bard and Paragnostic Apostle are decent.

If you plan to PrC out of Dread Necromancer, though, leave before level 8- otherwise, Undead Mastery will gimp your control over undead instead of buff it.

[Insert obligatory mention of the Arcane Disciple, Mother Cyst, and Cerebrosis feats here]

I'd say "gimp" is a pretty strong word for it. As long as the DN can get a Cha mod of +7 or better (which is far from unreachable, even at level 8) it gets to boast a higher Animate Dead HD cap than a 20th level Wizard (again, achievable as an 8th level DN). And it's Control Undead pool isn't hurt at all.

[Sergio]

Dread necromancer 20, pale master 10. How do you see that?

Can you suggest some builds, even some where I don't have to take all 20 levels on Dread necromancer?

[Vaz]

I've found three different handbooks going for different opinions:

> One suggests leaving at 8
> One suggests leaving at 12
> One suggests not leaving at all.

Can someone explain me the choices that are available by leaving at certain levels (8-12-...)?

Depends what you want. If you want to multiclass, 8 and 12 are good break points.

Level 8 gives you 4th level spells, and Advanced Learning to let you take Advanced Learning for beauties like Shivering Touch. Level 12 lets you do that with 6th level spells, gives you Light Fortification, and Enervating Touch (2 Neg levels/touch attack, up to 1/2 your Class level). It depends what level you're playing at, what level you're playing to, and what Prestige Class you want to take, ultimately. Dread Necro is a wonderful class to take all the way through to level 20.

Bear in mind as a DN, you're already a spell level behind the average curve of things like Wizards and Clerics and Druids, which might influence your choice of PrC - a class which is a 9/10 progression, missing the first level is putting you 2 levels behind the curve. Which may be fine, but that's going to limit you with things like metamagic or doing the cool stuff that higher level slots bring to you.

[Hackulator]

If you're actually getting to 20, the capstone is just too good to not stay in the class.

[Crake]

For maximum Minion-mancy, it's best to stay DN 20 due to Undead Mastery being based on class level.

Some guides mistakenly read Undead Mastery's scaling by class level to mean it scales by character level, hence them saying to leave DN once you hit 8 and get that ability.

As for 12th, I don't know... Maybe they were waiting to get into a PrC that they didn't qualify for until 12th? Maybe they wanted Enervating Touch and/or a new Advanced Learning spell? I really have no other ideas on that one.

To be fair, the only mention of class level is with regards to the animate dead spell, and with a strict RAW reading, boosting your caster level would not scale the dread necromancer's animate dead, so if you can boost your animate dead's CL to more than (your current CL)*(your cha mod/4) then you would actually be better ignoring the undead mastery bonus for animate dead. Control undead simply says per level, both with regards to the normal and modified way of calculating the number of HD, which implies it means CL (since the normal method is by CL, not class level). Because if this, it's not so much a mis-reading, but a RAI interpretation that it should be scaled on caster level, not class level, like everything.

Even without the extra HD of controllable undead, giving all undead you create +4 str/dex and +2 hp/HD is still pretty good on it's own, which is why level 8 is a perfectly fine cut off point.

[Esprit15]

I've run a pure Dread Necromancer and had plenty of fun, no need to prestige. Riding around on some crazy mount (I had a hydra for a while), and using Command Undead on anything that's good for more than basic minions (when the duration is about to expire, just tell them that you're casting a buff) to help you out in battle, you find yourself not needing any more tricks than that.

[Hackulator]

High level dread Necromancers can literally bring ARMIES of undead into the fray. I had a level 20 DN with leadership who could match the fielded forces of most kingdoms.

[Vizzerdrix]

[Insert obligatory mention of the Arcane Disciple, Mother Cyst, and Cerebrosis feats here]

It makes me happy to see someone else remember cerebrosis :smallsmile:

The best reason to prc out is to give your dm and fellow players a break. Having a lot of minions can be hard to cope with every encounter.

Anyways, I was always a fan of taking a few levels of mage of the arcane order. You will need to burn a few feats to enter it, though.

[OldTrees1]

High level dread Necromancers can literally bring ARMIES of undead into the fray. I had a level 20 DN with leadership who could match the fielded forces of most kingdoms.

Kingdoms in the period similar to D&D had quite a broad spectrum of army sizes. So to elaborate on your point:


Caster level 20
Cha 28+
Slaymate
Devotes 4 of their 8 5th level slots, and all 8 of their 8 4th level slots to maintenance of control over their army.
Each 5th level spell is an extended version of the 4th level spell Chain Command Undead(see Slaymate).
(4*2+8) * (20 days per cycle) * (21 targets per cast) = 16*20*21 = 6,720 undead (The English had 6K-9K at the Battle of Agincourt)


Devoting more spells or having a higher caster level can increase this rapidly.

Caster level 40
Cha 28+
Slaymate
Devotes half their slots of 5-9th (17 of ~34) and all 8 of their 4th level slots.
(17*2+8) * (40) * (21) = 42*40*21 = 35,280 undead (The French had 12K-36K at the Battle of Agincourt)


Combine your forces with that of 2 cohorts

3*42*40*21 = 105,840 undead (Well, that will do Lich. That will do.)

[Hackulator]

It makes me happy to see someone else remember cerebrosis :smallsmile:

The best reason to prc out is to give your dm and fellow players a break. Having a lot of minions can be hard to cope with every encounter.

Anyways, I was always a fan of taking a few levels of mage of the arcane order. You will need to burn a few feats to enter it, though.

I almost NEVER brought even a fraction of my minions to fights. I'd have one powerful controlled undead and maybe a couple big meat shield zombies and that was it.

Until the day our epic characters were supposed to invade the Abyss itself and do battle with a Demon Lord's army (I was a LN follower of Wee Jas). Everyone just showed up like normal and I showed up with thousands of undead minions and was like, "uh, you guys DIDN'T bring armies?"

[Vizzerdrix]

Until the day our epic characters were supposed to invade the Abyss itself and do battle with a Demon Lord's army (I was a LN follower of Wee Jas). Everyone just showed up like normal and I showed up with thousands of undead minions and was like, "uh, you guys DIDN'T bring armies?"

That sounds like a fun story. Ive usually just split up my undead amongst the other players so that everyone could have about equal table time. Some people like it, others dont.