Looking for Ninja advice

[Akisa]

I'm looking to build a Ninja and I kind of looking for two weapon finesse that's re-flavored to be a magical rogue.

following rolls are
12
17
17
11
11
9

We're starting at level 1

And is there anyway to get Dex to damage oppose to slashing grace (because it doesn't allow off hand dex damage).

[Psyren]

And is there anyway to get Dex to damage oppose to slashing grace (because it doesn't allow off hand dex damage).

Agile (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons/magic-weapon-special-abilities/agile/) property will do it.

Dex and Cha for the 17s, 12 in Con seems suitable.

[eldskald]

Ask your DM to let you play the "unchained" ninja. The unchained version of the rogue lost nothing and barely changed any feature, they basically added new features (dex to dam included) and bonuses. The very few changes that were made (in some rogue talents) were literally making them better, so making an unchained ninja isn't hard nor far fetched. I really recommend this, the vanilla rogue/ninja is very underpowered. I remember my first character ever, where I felt useless through levels 4 and above even though I did lots of research and slight optimization while no one else did.

[Geddy2112]

I second the unchained ninja (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/unchained-classes/rogue-unchained/alternate-classes/everyman-gaming-unchained-ninja552c/).

Since you have dex to damage, you can dump strength and put your 9 there. 11's in int and wis, the rest as Psyren said should be good.
I would suggest getting the shadow clone and vanishing trick as two of your ninja tricks. You can't go wrong with a free combat feat or weapon focus(wakazashi) either.

[the_david]

Have you considered playing an actual magical rogue (http://www.archivesofnethys.com/ArchetypeDisplay.aspx?FixedName=Rogue%20Eldritch%2 0Scoundrel) instead? Then again, maybe you just want to play a ninja without the hassle of spellcasting.

[Akisa]

Ask your DM to let you play the "unchained" ninja. The unchained version of the rogue lost nothing and barely changed any feature, they basically added new features (dex to dam included) and bonuses. The very few changes that were made (in some rogue talents) were literally making them better, so making an unchained ninja isn't hard nor far fetched. I really recommend this, the vanilla rogue/ninja is very underpowered. I remember my first character ever, where I felt useless through levels 4 and above even though I did lots of research and slight optimization while no one else did.


I second the unchained ninja (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/unchained-classes/rogue-unchained/alternate-classes/everyman-gaming-unchained-ninja552c/).

Since you have dex to damage, you can dump strength and put your 9 there. 11's in int and wis, the rest as Psyren said should be good.
I would suggest getting the shadow clone and vanishing trick as two of your ninja tricks. You can't go wrong with a free combat feat or weapon focus(wakazashi) either.

looks like DM said yes to Unchained Ninja

[Akisa]

Thoughts on Kitsune Ninja?

[Psyren]

It's a good race for Ninja.

Other than that I'd say check out a handbook (e.g. this one (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1dEZyEP-yooZdGprglxcEorpL_EnPfUqr6M89uHmF8Bo/edit?pli=1)) and come back with any specific questions you might have.

[Florian]

Thoughts on Kitsune Ninja?

Let me put it this way: Even when using an "Unchained Ninja", you´re going to be extremely feat-starved, especially on a TWF build.
In this case, formulate the build first, then go looking for a suitable race to base it on. It´s also important to know whether you have a good flanking buddy or not.

[Kurald Galain]

A good deal for a ninja is a one-level dip in Cleric. Using a cheap focus crystal, you can change your unneeded channel energy uses into ki pool instead. You also gain a few useful self-buffs that you can fluff as ninja abilities; several domains grant ranged touch attacks (that allow sneak attack damage); and it's fitting for a ninja to be able to cast Obscuring Mist.

[Akisa]

Let me put it this way: Even when using an "Unchained Ninja", you´re going to be extremely feat-starved, especially on a TWF build.
In this case, formulate the build first, then go looking for a suitable race to base it on. It´s also important to know whether you have a good flanking buddy or not.

At the moment there is Cleric, Paladin and non flank buddies would be Gunslinger and Wizard.

Here is what I have so far
Race: Kitsune
Alignment: NG
Alt Racial ability Superior Shape shifter
Class: Unchanged Ninja
Str 7
Dex 19
Con 12
Int 11
Wis 11
Cha 19

Feats: Two Weapon Fighting
Traits:Orphaned and Reactionary

Skills:
Acrobatics 10 (1 rank)
Bluff 4
Diplomacy 8 (1 rank)
Disable Device 8 (1 rank)
disguise 4/14 (shape shift disguise)
Escape Artist 4
Intimidate 4
Perception 4 (1 rank)
Sleight of Hand 8 (1 rank)
Stealth 8 (1 rank)/ 18 (Fox shape adds +2 extra dex mod + 8 size modifier)
Survival 5 (1 rank + 1 trait)
Swim -2 (Stay away from water dear god)
UMD 8 (1 rank)
Favored Class bonus 1/6 Rogue/Ninja talent.


Attacks
Wakizashi:
AB (Attack Bonus) 4
Damage 1d6-2 (18-20/x2)
Sneak Attack 1d6
Average damage before crit is 2* + 3.5 sneak attack damage

Dual Wield
AB 2
DMG 1d6-2 / 1d6 -2
Sneak Attack 1d6 / 1d6

Natural Form Bite attack
AB 4
DMG 1d4 -2
Sneak attack 1d6
Avg dmg, 1.25* + 3.5 sneak attack

Fox Shape Bite
Dmg 1* + 3.5 sneak attack


* if Min damage is always 1


Ok so I decided to pick Kitsune with alternate racial trait Superior Shapeshifter for two reasons.

The first and most important reason is because Foxes are cute! And DM said I can look like a Fennec Fox.

https://www.wired.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/FennecFox.jpg


On more serious note Fox shape will give me access to scent which allow me to track with scent if need be, and use scent ability as an alternate method of perception checks. I would also gain ability to be ungodly difficult to spot when scouting with massive 18 stealth check. To keep in perspective a 20 Wis + 1 rank Perception class bonus +2 racial ability for total of 11 which provide a bonus, so I would have +7 or 35% advantage over them.

If my character is being sought after I have three different disguises I can choose from.

Human form: If my pursuer are looking for an anthropomorphic fox chances are they're going to ignore a young girl.
Natural form: Likewise from above, except I'm more likely face racism from cultures or areas that doesn't get visit from other races. Such as small human villages who never seen Elves, dwarfs etc let alone an anthropomorphic fox.

What hinders both above is that I'll likely be wearing same clothing. A suddenly need to disguise would prove difficult unless I can rapidly hide the clothing I'm wearing.

Fox Shape: Now this is the most unique of the three disguises, as I would turn into an animal. In the wilderness foxes would be less suspicious than an urban area (except in small town that border woods) as foxes are not uncommon, and outside of chicken farmers and the like wouldn't be much danger to humans and thus more likely to be left alone. In large city foxes would be out of place but there are mundane ways to fix that. A simple collar could result into two things, it could fool people into believing the fox is just a unique looking or different kind of breed of dog, or a noble's exotic pet that had gotten loose.


Weakness of the build

7 Str makes carrying items a pain, with light load of 23 lbs would make things difficult.
Leather Armor 15 LBS
2x Wakizashi 4 LBS
Total weight 19 LBS

that leaves me with whooping spare 4 LBS to spare which 1LBS would likely have to be thieves tools. I guess I'll have to have offload my items to Paladin.

Shadows are a nope! 2 Hits I'm dead on average no chance of stabilizing.

Next is grappling in all three form I don't have answer to being grappled. I guess level 2 I can dip a point into Escape artist but that's about it.

No answers to flying creatures but I guess I can let Gunslinger, Wizard and Cleric deal with that.

Low Damage! My damage output would be 2 or 5.5 damage with sneak attack. Compared guy with a longsword will do an average 4.5 damage without strength bonus, even assuming a strength of 12 they'll be matching my sneak attack bonus output on per attack. A Falchion does average weapon damage of 5 and 18 strength will provide 11 damage equaling 2 Sneak attack damage attacks with no requirements. I guess death by thousand paper cut applies is going to be my character's model.


Glimmer of hope
Level 2: KI pool becomes available and Ninja trick become available, which lets me use some ability to make up short comings. I can use vanishing trick to set up guarantee sneak attack (outside of rare blindsense or see invisibility at level 2). Or I can increase my death by thousand paper cut to gain an extra attack.

Level 3 Is where the big swing in damage for me, I go from average weapon damage of 2 / 2 to 7.5 / 5.5 a whopping damage increase of 5.5 on the main hand and 3.5 on the offhand attacks. This is not counting the extra 3.5 sneak attack damage (bring the average sneak attack damage to 7). So Combined with sneak attack average damage would be 14.5 / 12.5, a KI point would bring it to 14.5 / 14.5 / 12.5 assuming all three hit.

**Level 8 Easy fast ball special/Fighterdoken if in Fox and I can gain the feat Swift Kitsune shapechanger be tossed at enemy as tiny creature swift change back to human/natural form and attack likely dumb founded enemies

**That's not a serious and meant to be a joke, as it'll likely get my character killed, there are far better methods to spend feat on.


TLDR
Build for scouting with Scent and +18 stealth check, but has low damage output until level 3 and she doesn't lift bro.

[Akisa]

Any recommended feats down the road? Does Double Slice work with Dex to damage, and is it worth it? Is Piranha strike worth it as well?

[eldskald]

Double Slice does work and is kinda mandatory. TWF builds are indeed very feat starved. Try to get your hands/paws on a handy haversack (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/a-b/bag-handy-haversack/) as soon as possible. Your strength score will be a problem once you are not able to carry your gear, which might happen. One way to improve it is getting a masterwork backpack (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment/goods-and-services/containers-bags-boxes-more/#TOC-Backpack), but that's probably not enough. You will be forced to carry less weight because of that. To be honest, I would recommend switching your Int or Wis score with your Str score, since even 10 Str score small characters tend to need all of that to carry their gear.

[Akisa]

Double Slice does work and is kinda mandatory. TWF builds are indeed very feat starved. Try to get your hands/paws on a handy haversack (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/a-b/bag-handy-haversack/) as soon as possible. Your strength score will be a problem once you are not able to carry your gear, which might happen. One way to improve it is getting a masterwork backpack (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment/goods-and-services/containers-bags-boxes-more/#TOC-Backpack), but that's probably not enough. You will be forced to carry less weight because of that. To be honest, I would recommend switching your Int or Wis score with your Str score, since even 10 Str score small characters tend to need all of that to carry their gear.

But Kitsune is medium size creature, granted I can transform into a tiny creature.

[eldskald]

But Kitsune is medium size creature, granted I can transform into a tiny creature.

Your light weight limit is 23lbs. A leather armor is 15lbs alone, so the two wakizashis add up to 19lbs. Then, your backpack adds up to 21lbs and so whatever clothes you pick to wear and you're already under medium weight. I'm not even counting food, ammo, torches, camping gear... And that's all only vanilla stuff! Later, you will need to carry magic gear. In this way, you are bound to fall under medium weight. That means you get 20ft land speed, a hit to your AC and a penalty on acrobacy, stealth and sleight of hand. And you have to carry your weapons and wear your armor and gadgets, no pack mule or handy haversack can save you from carrying everything.

You will see that survival gear is absurdly heavy. I suggest you buy a mule to carry it for you. Taking it around with you is less painful as it seems, but usually all non strength characters can't carry this stuff and buy mules for that. For everyone that wears armor (even light armor), I suggest keeping at least 10 Str or deal with medium weight. Rogue-like characters can't afford weight penalties, so yeah... This game is tough to rogues, unfortunately.

[Kurald Galain]

Your light weight limit is 23lbs. A leather armor is 15lbs alone, so the two wakizashis add up to 19lbs. Then, your backpack adds up to 21lbs and so whatever clothes you pick to wear and you're already under medium weight. I'm not even counting food, ammo, torches, camping gear...
Good heavens, why on earth would you be carrying camping gear as a low strength character?

Nor do you need food (you can hunt, yes?) or torches (at least one party member is bound to have the Light cantrip) or ammo (don't see any bows on this build). Darkleaf armor is half the weight, or you can drop the armor entirely and buy a cheap wand of Mage Armor instead. Carry belt pouches instead of a backpack. And quite a number of magical items have zero weight.

Getting along with 7 strength is easy. I've played two dex-based frontliners who did that just fine, and a caster who had no problem with five strength.

[eldskald]

Good heavens, why on earth would you be carrying camping gear as a low strength character?

Nor do you need food (you can hunt, yes?) or torches (at least one party member is bound to have the Light cantrip) or ammo (don't see any bows on this build). Darkleaf armor is half the weight, or you can drop the armor entirely and buy a cheap wand of Mage Armor instead. Carry belt pouches instead of a backpack. And quite a number of magical items have zero weight.

Getting along with 7 strength is easy. I've played two dex-based frontliners who did that just fine, and a caster who had no problem with five strength.

While I agree that it's possible to not carry camping stuff, I disagree that Darkleaf armor or wands are cheap. This is a level one character, he wont have the money to buy any of that so early and will definetely have to work a lot to get there. Also, wands cost an action to use, and UMD at this level is definetely not viable. Casters can do it easy not only because they don't need to wear armor, but they also don't care if they are under medium or light weight. Now, dropping armor is the real only way to get by through lv 1 and 2, but that won't really be easy. With those stats, at first level the ninja will have 9 total hp and 14 AC with no armor. One or two arrows and he's down.

[Kurald Galain]

Also, wands cost an action to use, and UMD at this level is definetely not viable.
Why not? He's got +8 UMD, and the DC is 20. Easy enough, and it won't cost an action in combat because of its long duration.


One or two arrows and he's down.
So what? At that level, any character will be down after one or two arrows. It's silly to claim that the ninja has this problem AND a caster with the same AC somehow doesn't AND a ninja with only +2 more AC suddenly doesn't have the problem any more either.

[Geddy2112]

I don't think you need to worry about encumbrance at all. Just carry your weapons and armor, and maybe a belt pouch with a few weight free items in it(candles, flint and steel, etc). In a couple levels you will have a handy haversack and mithral chain shirt, making weight even more trival.

The cleric and the paladin should have no problem carrying all the misc. gear the party needs in the meantime. You have a cleric and wizard, meaning you have infinite water and cleaning, and if you needed they could cast endure elements on the whole party. Heck, they could cast ant haul if the party finds something really heavy they need to carry. Encumbrance only matters at level 1-2, and even then its not hard to work around.

[eldskald]

I don't know what your experiences were when you played, but I always felt like the differences between 10 AC to 14 AC were close to null, while 14 AC to 16 AC is huge, at least at early levels. At level one, most enemies have around +3 or +4 to hit, which makes them at least 50% likely hit those around 10 to 14 AC range, while those with more are more likely to not get hit. So two arrows shot will more likely get him down with no armor, while with armor he will more likely survive. And +8 UMD is still 40% chance to do it, and you still risk a mishap. Also, a wand is 750gp per hour of duration, meaning it's actually very expensive considering you will ruin 60%~50% of their charges on failed UMD checks. The smartest thing to do is to let the party caster use them on you. Also, they won't work when you're ambushed or surprised, you would have to spend an action to activate them in those cases.

There is also the fact that items like cloak of resistance, belts of dexterity, boots and other stuff all have their weight and it all adds up. Even with darkleaf armor, it can quickly get you to medium. Of course, it is possible to get by with 7 Str, but it will cost you. You can talk to your party caster and have him keep you buffed with mage armor so you can survive the first levels and later you can use bracers of armor. It's no big deal, but you still lose the armor enchantment slot, though.

UPDATE: Since they are a ninja and have access to wakizashi, I thought that they could have access to oriental armor too. Good news, they're absurdly light! http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment/armor/eastern-armor-and-shields

[Geddy2112]

I don't know what your experiences were when you played, but I always felt like the differences between 10 AC to 14 AC were close to null, while 14 AC to 16 AC is huge, at least at early levels. At level one, most enemies have around +3 or +4 to hit, which makes them at least 50% likely hit those around 10 to 14 AC range, while those with more are more likely to not get hit. So two arrows shot will more likely get him down with no armor, while with armor he will more likely survive.
As a rule, the bare minimum AC you should have is 10+level, most characters should have 15+level, and tanks have 20+level. 14 AC is pretty good for first level, and for 3 gold and only 1lb of weight you can get a haramaki (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment/armor/eastern-armor-and-shields/), making your AC 15 which is just fine. It also has no max dex, ACP, and can be enchanted.


And +8 UMD is still 40% chance to do it, and you still risk a mishap. Also, a wand is 750gp per hour of duration, meaning it's actually very expensive considering you will ruin 60%~50% of their charges on failed UMD checks. The smartest thing to do is to let the party caster use them on you. Also, they won't work when you're ambushed or surprised, you would have to spend an action to activate them in those cases. This is not entirely true. For one, you don't use a charge if you fail to activate a wand. Second, you don't mishap with wands, only scrolls and activating items blindly. It is true that having the party wizard cast mage armor on you would be awesome, but their spells are pretty limited at level one and they probably need it for themselves, but bonus points if you convinced them to mage armor you. It is also true you can't cast it right before a fight, but if you are going into a dungeon or expecting trouble it is very easy to cast. A wand of mage armor is generally out of the price range of a 1st level character, unless you can find a used one with few charges left.

As far as getting ambushed and dying, or 2 good shots from a bow killing you, that is just part of level 1. Until you hit 3ish, it is basically fantasy Vietnam.

[Kurald Galain]

I don't know what your experiences were when you played, but I always felt like the differences between 10 AC to 14 AC were close to null, while 14 AC to 16 AC is huge,
If you feel that 2 > 4 then you might want to check your math on that :smallamused:


you will ruin 60%~50% of their charges on failed UMD checks.
Missing an UMD check explicitly doesn't cost a charge.


There is also the fact that items like cloak of resistance, belts of dexterity, boots and other stuff all have their weight and it all adds up. Even with darkleaf armor, it can quickly get you to medium.
Please do some math on that, too. Darkleaf armor saves you 7.5 lbs, and a cloak, belt, and boots are 1 pound each. That means you have 4.5 lbs left over,
and Mage Armor saves you another 7.5 lbs. So this still doesn't get anywhere near to medium load.

[eldskald]

Yeah yeah, after the eastern armor thing I set back on what I said about encumbrance. Having access to the haramaki is totally enough, even for higher levels for it's enchantment.

It's just that, the usual build of the rogue is to use something like a mithral chainshirt and dual wield light weapons. That would be 19lbs in his case. Add in traveller clothes and you're already at the 23lbs limit. There is no space left for belts, cloaks, headbands... Even a handy haversack will weight you down. To effectively do it, you would have to use other armor or no armor at all. It's not impossible, I agree with you all. But it's not so trivial, and you might end up more dependant than it's worth for like, 2 points of Wis or Int. Its just a trade like any other.

[Kurald Galain]

It's just that, the usual build of the rogue is to use something like a mithral chainshirt and dual wield light weapons.
Dude, seriously. Mithral chain = 12.5, rapier = 2, dagger = 1 so that's a total of 15.5, not 23. Add +3 more for a pickpocket's outfit, and you're still 4.5 pounds below the limit.

And for the rogue it's also a good idea to use a Mage Armor wand, or at least go for studded leather which has a higher max dex, is noticeably cheaper, and weighs 20% less.

[Geddy2112]

Dude, seriously. Mithral chain = 12.5, rapier = 2, dagger = 1 so that's a total of 15.5, not 23. Add +3 more for a pickpocket's outfit, and you're still 4.5 pounds below the limit.
Mithral chain is only 10(listed as mithral chain, but chain shirt is 25 so there is a discrepancy), and if you are going dual short swords or wakazashi's it is 2 per, giving 14, but still way less. And second the pickpocket's outfit-free starting clothing, weighs less, and a bonus to a skill you are putting a rank in anyways. If you really need to save weight, the monk's robe has no bonuses, but fits the ninja look just as well, has small folds to hide weapons, and a sash that works as a rope. With a handy haversack(5), mithral chain shirt(10), dual wakizashi's(4) and pickpocket's outfit(3) you are at 22lb, totally fine. With a really bonus, darkleaf studded leather, darkleaf leather, or just a haramaki for enchantments are all lighter.

[eldskald]

Oops! Looks like I'm really crazy today, sorry for all the wrong data. I could swear that mithral chainshirt weighted 15lbs. I should have checked before posting, same goes for the wand stuff. Maybe I just have bad memories of always being around 1lb or 0.5lbs off of medium, which prevented me from stealing something heavy and getting away as easy. Being on the verge of something bad always made me unsettled.

For the OP, it's totally fine to go with 7 Str, don't mind my outburst about it.