Thaumaturgist and/or Malconvoker as a Sorcerer

[Velaryon]

So I'm looking at making a character who uses some combination of these two classes to add some summoning-related abilities to my sorcerer schtick. I'm a kobold and I want to play up their reputation for being sneaky little buggers who rely on traps, ambushes, etc. to accomplish their goals. Since I haven't found a class that really focuses on that (other than the garbage dump that is Combat Trapsmith in Complete Scoundrel), I'm looking at summoning as a way of diversifying my trap and ambush capabilities.

I'm going to be a dragonwrought kobold (for this game, assume that means no aging penalties and the ability to take the draconic wings feat, but none of that age category abuse stuff), in case that matters. I'm aware of the kobold sorcerer racial substitution levels in Races of the Dragon and I will most likely be taking them, unless there's a compelling reason not to.

So here's my question: Thaumaturgist and Malconvoker - is it better for me to take one, the other, or a mixture of both for this character? My current idea is to go Sorc 8 (using the racial substitution levels), then Thaumaturgist X (is there a reason not to take the whole class?), then as much Malconvoker as I can during the game. We are starting at level 6, and I don't actually have any idea of what level we will be reaching. I want to have a 20-level game plan, but one that doesn't wait til too high of a level to start paying off.

Is there a better plan than Sorc 8 / Thaumaturgist 5 / Malconvoker X? Should I skip Thaumaturgist entirely and just to Malconvoker, or jump to a completely different class after Thaumaturgist? Is there a faster way to get into one or the other class as a spontaneous caster without too much cheese?

[Bullet06320]

wizards is usually the better option, getting spell levels faster than sorcerer, unless you going total kobald cheese using the draconic rites and loredrake route(which reminds me, I was invited to a game coming up and told to bring the most brokenest character I can, lol)

the capstone for Thaumaturgist is planar cohort, free body guard/castor, crafter, lots of good possibilities there pending level

conjuration specialist wizard is the best route, but the best advice I can give you is posted here Mastering the Malconvoker (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?528090-Mastering-the-Malconvoker)


and some extra reading

the-Conjurer-s-Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?498825-the-Conjurer-s-Handbook)
Summoning Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?527203-Summoning-Handbook&p=22092940#post22092940)
Practical Demonkeeping (A Summoner’s Guide to the Lower Plan (https://web.archive.org/web/20131110162508/brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5573.0)
Rising Above (A Summoner's Guide to the Upper Planes) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?527527-Rising-Above-(A-Summoner-s-Guide-to-the-Upper-Planes))
Legal 3.5 Summonable Monster List (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?444042-Legal-3-5-Summonable-Monster-List)
The Summoner's Desk Reference [D&D 3.5] (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?255219-The-Summoner-s-Desk-Reference-D-amp-D-3-5)

[Telonius]

Assuming you're getting Planar Ally through Arcane Disciple (or some similar trick) - I think it depends on how badly you want the capstone of Thaumaturgist. Extended Summons is going to be overlapped by Malconvoker's Deceptive Summons ability, so Thaumaturgist3 doesn't do anything for you. Contingent Conjuration is nice for action economy, but that or an additional level of Malconvoker might be a bit of a tossup. So 3 and 4, replaceable. 5, though - cohorts are powerful; there's a reason Leadership is considered one of the strongest Feats in the game.

If you do decide against taking Thaumaturgist all the way, only take the first two levels. It would be something like Sorc8/Thau2/Malconvoker9/Something Else1. If you're taking Greater Draconic Rite of Passage (and you should, if it's available) that will get you back the lost caster level from Malconvoker.

[Velaryon]

wizards is usually the better option, getting spell levels faster than sorcerer, unless you going total kobald cheese using the draconic rites and loredrake route(which reminds me, I was invited to a game coming up and told to bring the most brokenest character I can, lol)

I've got my heart set on sorcerer for this for fluff reasons, and also because I usually play wizards. I definitely agree going conjurer would be more effective, but it doesn't fit my character concept this time.


Assuming you're getting Planar Ally through Arcane Disciple (or some similar trick) - I think it depends on how badly you want the capstone of Thaumaturgist. Extended Summons is going to be overlapped by Malconvoker's Deceptive Summons ability, so Thaumaturgist3 doesn't do anything for you. Contingent Conjuration is nice for action economy, but that or an additional level of Malconvoker might be a bit of a tossup. So 3 and 4, replaceable. 5, though - cohorts are powerful; there's a reason Leadership is considered one of the strongest Feats in the game.

If you do decide against taking Thaumaturgist all the way, only take the first two levels. It would be something like Sorc8/Thau2/Malconvoker9/Something Else1. If you're taking Greater Draconic Rite of Passage (and you should, if it's available) that will get you back the lost caster level from Malconvoker.

I was under the impression that Thaumaturgist 3 and Malconvoker 1 would stack for extending summon durations. Are you sure that it doesn't? The abilities aren't from a similar source, and Thaumaturgist at least specifies that it does stack with Extend Spell. At any rate, it sounds like 2 is the jumping off point for Thaumaturgist unless I decide to go all the way. Thanks!

[ngilop]

I've got my heart set on sorcerer for this for fluff reasons, and also because I usually play wizards. I definitely agree going conjurer would be more effective, but it doesn't fit my character concept this time.



I was under the impression that Thaumaturgist 3 and Malconvoker 1 would stack for extending summon durations. Are you sure that it doesn't? The abilities aren't from a similar source, and Thaumaturgist at least specifies that it does stack with Extend Spell. At any rate, it sounds like 2 is the jumping off point for Thaumaturgist unless I decide to go all the way. Thanks!

They do stack.

one is a passive effect (thaum) where you get the extended duration

the other is an active effect (requires a bluff check as a free action when summoning evil) where you get the extended duration

and BOTH stack with extend spell

[Bullet06320]

They do stack.

one is a passive effect (thaum) where you get the extended duration

the other is an active effect (requires a bluff check as a free action when summoning evil) where you get the extended duration

and BOTH stack with extend spell

that's why both are good combined, longer summons = more fun

[Nifft]

My suggestion for a Dragonwrought Kobold would be:

Sorcerer 5 / Mindbender 1 / Malconvoker 8 / Thaumaturgist 5 / whatever 1

... assuming you're using Arcane Disciple for access to lesser planar ally.

Mindbender is nice because you can command your summoned legions and coordinate your allies covertly, plus because Mindsight.

The level 7 Dragonblood racial sub level is good, but it's not as good as Telepathy. There is no reason to take level 8 Sorcerer -- even if you were somehow compelled by the forces of Hell to take Thaumaturgist before Malconvoker, your level 6 Kobold racial feature ("Rite of Greater Draconic Passage") lets you cast as a level 8 Sorcerer at character level 7.

If you get the Summoning Prestige Domain early, and you have enough feats for Versatile Spellcaster and Spell Focus: Conjuration and Augment Summoning, then you might be able to argue that you can cast summon monster III at character level 4, which opens up Malconvoker even earlier. But that's not really needful.

[Telonius]

The plus side of taking Thaumaturgist (at least two levels) before Malconvoker is that it frees up a feat. Thaumaturgist2 gives you Augment Summoning, which is a prereq for Malconvoker.

[Velaryon]

I've been leaning toward taking Thaumaturgist first for exactly that reason. Not only does it mean I get Augment Summoning for free instead of having to spend a feat on it, but if I took Malconvoker first and then Thaumaturgist, that level would be a dead one where I get nothing.

If I went straight Malconvoker, then I would break even on feats since I wouldn't need Arcane Disciple. However, it looks like I'd be worse off in the long run if I took Malconvoker and then Thaumaturgist since I'd both have to spend an extra feat and would have a dead level later on down the line. It's possible the DM would let me retrain the feat at that point, but I'm not sure.