Polymorph houserules?

[Alejandro]

Wanted to see how other 5E GMs and players handle the Polymorph spell, as I am considering picking it up for my Bard.

My GM informed me that I could Polymorph targets/PCs/myself into Beasts "that I have seen." If my PC hasn't seen/encountered it, I can't do it. I did some reviewing, and that eliminates a lot of the beasts that are not 'usual animals' like elk, wolf, crocodile, etc. The highest CR thing I could find that my PC has personally seen is the Cave Bear, CR 2. The GM also said swarms are not OK, so that eliminates those as well. I did the math, and I have seen about 35% of the Beasts, and all of those are CR 2 or lower.

Should I still pick the spell up, or maybe go for something else?

[Rhedyn]

You don't polymorph. You polymorph allies into giant apes.

Our group changed polymorph to this
Use your own HP
1/2 cr per level of target cap
Any creature type
No concentration on self, yes on target
Wis save each round to remove.

[Alejandro]

I know I can polymorph allies. I mentioned that. :) I cannot Polymorph my friends into giant apes, because my PC has not seen a giant ape.

[Demonslayer666]

As a DM, I don't limit the spell like that. And honestly, it doesn't seem like a worthwhile spell unless he lets you turn into the higher CR beasts.

Maybe you could quest to go see some of the creatures you want to turn into.

[Alejandro]

As a DM, I don't limit the spell like that. And honestly, it doesn't seem like a worthwhile spell unless he lets you turn into the higher CR beasts.

Maybe you could quest to go see some of the creatures you want to turn into.

We're playing Out of the Abyss, I can't really go other places than the Underdark, mostly :)

[SharkForce]

i wouldn't take it if you're practically speaking limited to CR 2. that will make it pretty useless in combat, and it doesn't provide enough utility to be worthwhile outside of combat imo either. bards have no shortage of will-save disables, and many of the other ones are AoE.

[Coidzor]

Congratulate your DM on nerfing it into uselessness and pick another spell.

[Breashios]

The spell has plenty of utility aside from combat. In combat I did allow the "Giant Ape" once an ape was studied, a "Giant Scorpion" after encountering normal scorpions. But for combat it did not turn out to be all that.

In the one encounter where the sorcerer polymorphed the rogue into a giant ape (only character willing to be polymorphed), he took damage like a champ, destroyed numerous opponents and basically did everything they wanted him to do.

After the battle the group got a little careless and an Umber Hulk confused him and almost took him down when he wandered off to a side area.

I don't know if their analysis was right or not, but the sorcerer gave up the spell at his next level up.

Their thinking - They had to cast the spell twice to get through the battle - (It had taken that much damage very quickly.) - compared to the rogue rarely getting hit normally. In addition, they had to have another character cast Invisibility on the sorcerer so he wouldn't get hit and loose concentration too quickly. I think there was another spell involved in making it a workable solution. So in the end too many resources went into it. Though they got what they needed in that deadly encounter, they did not see that exact circumstance as likely too many times in the future and the sorcerer being a sorcerer wanted other spells as well.

Interestingly, as DM I saw many cases where being able to polymorph for other reasons would have been useful, but never necessary, so I don't think it is a necessary thing.

[Alejandro]

The spell has plenty of utility aside from combat. In combat I did allow the "Giant Ape" once an ape was studied, a "Giant Scorpion" after encountering normal scorpions. But for combat it did not turn out to be all that.

In the one encounter where the sorcerer polymorphed the rogue into a giant ape (only character willing to be polymorphed), he took damage like a champ, destroyed numerous opponents and basically did everything they wanted him to do.

After the battle the group got a little careless and an Umber Hulk confused him and almost took him down when he wandered off to a side area.

I don't know if their analysis was right or not, but the sorcerer gave up the spell at his next level up.

Their thinking - They had to cast the spell twice to get through the battle - (It had taken that much damage very quickly.) - compared to the rogue rarely getting hit normally. In addition, they had to have another character cast Invisibility on the sorcerer so he wouldn't get hit and loose concentration too quickly. I think there was another spell involved in making it a workable solution. So in the end too many resources went into it. Though they got what they needed in that deadly encounter, they did not see that exact circumstance as likely too many times in the future and the sorcerer being a sorcerer wanted other spells as well.

Interestingly, as DM I saw many cases where being able to polymorph for other reasons would have been useful, but never necessary, so I don't think it is a necessary thing.

In my case, I wanted to use it as faux healing: if a friend is very low on HP, Polymorph them into something with a lot of HP, to give them more time conscious and fighting. But I need to be able to use high enough CR beasts for that :)

[SharkForce]

who cares if the ape gets hit a lot? it isn't like it's costing the rogue hit points. meanwhile, a level 7 rogue should be doing something around 5d6+5 damage per round, maybe as much as 2d8 + 4d6 + 5 at best. average 22-28 before hit chance is factored in, and has to be against a specific target (ie you need advantage or an ally next to them... which is great if you're trying to kill an ogre, but not so great if you're trying to kill the wizard standing 20 feet behind the ogre). meanwhile the ape is doing 22 damage per hit, and attacks twice, against any target.

likewise, with hit points, well... yeah the ape will get hit a lot (unless maybe the rogue had mage armour up, and even then it won't be that hard to hit). but 157 hit points... that's probably triple the hit points of a level 7 rogue. unless he's getting hit 3 times as often, he's at least breaking even in terms of how long the ape will last, except that when the ape goes, there's still a rogue underneath with full HP (or at least, as full as they were before polymorph).

as for going after the sorcerer, they should have been trying that anyways. your party should be set up to make them pay for the attempt, by the way. and ideally, should be set up to make them fail.

so yes, your party underestimated the power of the spell. unless that was when they were high level. at level 7, polymorph is completely bonkers. at level 15, it's not even much of a novelty any more.

[Biggstick]

The spell won't be worth taking if the DM limits you in this manner. You can either plead your case to the DM in how there isn't many 4th level Bard spells you consider worth taking, or simply choose another spell.

Seeing as how you're in OotA, do you have a character with Leomund's Tiny Hut? Having a place to hide/rest every night would be pretty valuable.

[No brains]

Check what counts as 'seeing' an animal. If you can see a creature in a book or with a divination, does that count? If a creature with telepathy communicates 'elephant' to you, does that give you a clear mental image of an elephant?

[Breashios]

who cares if the ape gets hit a lot? ...there's still a rogue underneath with full HP (or at least, as full as they were before polymorph).

as for going after the sorcerer, they should have been trying that anyways. your party should be set up to make them pay for the attempt, by the way. and ideally, should be set up to make them fail.

so yes, your party underestimated the power of the spell. unless that was when they were high level. at level 7, polymorph is completely bonkers. at level 15, it's not even much of a novelty any more.

Might have, but didn't die later because they lacked it! They may have been afraid of the overlap hit and the ape's vulnerability to mental saves. I don't remember what it was, but the damage might have been significant. They also role-played the lack of self they experienced (remembered) when transformed. (I didn't make them do random stuff; they remembered their friends and intentions while polymorphed, but I described the mental impairment appropriately.) If they'd seen the benefit more clearly they would have overcome that self imposed concern.

So they had it at 8th level but not at 9th. I think that was ok. My point is more in general, look at your party. If they need that then see what your DM will allow you to do. Studying an ape will be hard enough in a euro-centric medieval fantasy world (if that is where you are, not to mention finding a giant version). If polymorph is not needed there are lots of other spells that will be great at that level.

[Matrix_Walker]

I know I can polymorph allies. I mentioned that. :) I cannot Polymorph my friends into giant apes, because my PC has not seen a giant ape.

If your character has read about one, that is sufficient (unless your GM house-rules otherwise) there is no requirement to have encountered a beast before. It would be prohibitively restricting if that was the case.

[Jerrykhor]

How about you tell your DM that your character has seen it in pictures/drawings/illusions? Wizards study plenty in wizard school, and surely they've seen images of animals while in bestiary class.

[imanidiot]

Wanted to see how other 5E GMs and players handle the Polymorph spell, as I am considering picking it up for my Bard.

My GM informed me that I could Polymorph targets/PCs/myself into Beasts "that I have seen." If my PC hasn't seen/encountered it, I can't do it. I did some reviewing, and that eliminates a lot of the beasts that are not 'usual animals' like elk, wolf, crocodile, etc. The highest CR thing I could find that my PC has personally seen is the Cave Bear, CR 2. The GM also said swarms are not OK, so that eliminates those as well. I did the math, and I have seen about 35% of the Beasts, and all of those are CR 2 or lower.

Should I still pick the spell up, or maybe go for something else?

Your DM nerfed Polymorph hard. Don't take it.

[Rhedyn]

IMHO

Polymorph is bad for game balance. The one sorcerer who gave it up earlier in this thread did it for dumb reasons. (Oh no the rogue took so many hits to his free HP shield. Boo hoo)

You shouldn't take it because it is too strong once you get giant apes. (Since some people are confused. There is requirement for shifting in the rules. His DM added house rules)

I wouldn't begrudge the DM for that. The spell is too strong.

[Biggstick]

IMHO

Polymorph is bad for game balance. The one sorcerer who gave it up earlier in this thread did it for dumb reasons. (Oh no the rogue took so many hits to his free HP shield. Boo hoo)

You shouldn't take it because it is too strong once you get giant apes. (Since some people are confused. There is requirement for shifting in the rules. His DM added house rules)

I wouldn't begrudge the DM for that. The spell is too strong.

I absolutely disagree that Polymorph is bad for game balance. Heck, if we're going that route, we should change Hallucinatory Terrain, Greater Invisibility, and Freedom of Movement as well!

The Player casting Polymorph, and the PC who allows it to happen, are giving up quite a bit to utilize the form. The PC allowing it to happen is no longer utilizing their class abilities, and the caster using the spell is using up their concentration on a buff spell. Sure, it's 100+ temporary hp, but since when is doing damage ever been a problem for a DM? Have your smarter enemy's target the spell casters to get them to drop concentration. Have your enemy spell casters target an Ape's weak saves.

If the DM is worried about spells like Polymorph, I weep for the Players in that game that make it to 5th and 6th level spells, as they will probably find their spell list absolutely gutted.

[dejarnjc]

If the DM is worried about spells like Polymorph, I weep for the Players in that game that make it to 5th and 6th level spells, as they will probably find their spell list absolutely gutted.


I dunno, I'm playing a 12th level druid right now in a long campaign and I can say that pound for pound a 4th level polymorph is generally a much more powerful a spell than any 5th or 6th level spell on the table (outside of maybe animate objects and conjure animals [cast at 5th level] depending on the situation).


And don't get me started on Hypnotic Pattern :P

[Biggstick]

I dunno, I'm playing a 12th level druid right now in a long campaign and I can say that pound for pound a 4th level polymorph is generally a much more powerful a spell than any 5th or 6th level spell on the table (outside of maybe animate objects and conjure animals [cast at 5th level] depending on the situation).


And don't get me started on Hypnotic Pattern :P

I mean, the Druid spell list is lacking, but in regards to Druid in particular.

Commune with Nature, Conjure Elemental, Scrying, and Wall of Stone are pretty amazing 5th level spells. In particular, Conjure Elemental is one that particularly draws my attention as being way more powerful then Polymorph.

Conjure Fey and Wind Walk are the solid 6th level spells I was able to find. Druids have quite a few other 6th level spells available, but they seem much more niche.

These are spells that are available to all Druids; are you a Moon Druid or a Land Druid? What else do you have in your party in regards to higher level spell casters?

[DivisibleByZero]

While I understand the ire that some people are expressing and calling it a nerf, I also completely understand where your DM is coming from.

Hey, I heard about this one animal somewhere that has 6 legs and huge teeth and fur all over. It's called a Snuffalupagus. I turn into that. I turn into a Snuffalupagus.
How do you know what you're supposed to turn into if you've never even seen it?

[Breashios]

IMHO

Polymorph is bad for game balance. The one sorcerer who gave it up earlier in this thread did it for dumb reasons. (Oh no the rogue took so many hits to his free HP shield. Boo hoo)

You shouldn't take it because it is too strong once you get giant apes. (Since some people are confused. There is requirement for shifting in the rules. His DM added house rules)

I wouldn't begrudge the DM for that. The spell is too strong.

Please stop putting words in my players' mouths. I explained the number of reasons I understood from the portion of the discussion I was present for that I could remember. The "rogue took so many hits to his free HP shield" is also a complete misrepresentation.

I wrote, "It had taken that much damage very quickly," which is a way of saying though the rogue as a giant ape "took damage like a champ, destroyed numerous opponents and basically did everything they wanted him to do," they did not see those 157 HP per spell to always be as effective as 50 HP given directly to the rogue in his un-changed form or another spell that could prevent a number of mooks from doing about 50 HP of damage to the party over the same amount of time (maybe some type of wall spell, etc.).

They had no complaints about the polymorph spell, just that they did not foresee an equally useful situation in the near future for the spell to shine. Though the giant ape can do much more damage than the rogue at that level, it also is susceptible to mental save attacks. It also lacks the flexibility the rogue often has in other tactical situations. We could go through a comparison with each other party member, but the net result was roughly the same in their mind. If the party had included a tank or something similar, then they might have kept the spell.

As a DM, I did not find the spell too strong, though as I stated earlier, I could see its use in a lot of non-combat situations as well. So I would point the DM in question to this thread and encourage him to read through all the relevant posts. Maybe he would change his mind.

While I support house rules for tone and feel purposes (and the rule of fun), I don't think there is a need to have them for balance purposes in 5e.

[Alejandro]

Well, I have decided not to pick up Polymorph, as others have stated, it is not useful enough under the houserules I must use. Since I am a bard, I want to be very careful what spells I choose; I can't just memorize something else, like a wizard can.

I'll probably pick up Greater Invisibility instead. That is a very useful buff for either myself or another PC, and goes well with other non concentration spells I have, or reactions I take, like Bardic Inspiration.

As an extra, I am also about to get my first Magical Secrets (lore bard.) I was going to take Spiritual Weapon and Conjure Animals, but the GM strongly discouraged me from taking any summoning spells, so that will become something else as well.

[Coidzor]

And don't get me started on Hypnotic Pattern :P

Hypnotic Pattern is exactly why Polymorph isn't game-breaking. If your caster is concentrating on making a giant monkey, they aren't altering the battlefield to win.

[Byke]

It's a silly rule, to limit min-maxing....if seeing the beast was required it would be written into the spell.

What's with DMs sucking the life/fun out of the game. It's magic you say T-Rex the spell knows what to do :)

In all seriousness some of the most memorable experiences player have are of being polymorphs in crazy stuff and having other players ride them doing silly thing.

[Breashios]

It's a silly rule, to limit min-maxing....if seeing the beast was required it would be written into the spell.

What's with DMs sucking the life/fun out of the game. It's magic you say T-Rex the spell knows what to do :)

In all seriousness some of the most memorable experiences player have are of being polymorphs in crazy stuff and having other players ride them doing silly thing.

You've made great points and I'll agree to everything here with one exception. IF the DM is building a world where there are no T-Rex or anything like it, he has the duty to keep options in spells shaped to how that campaign world is set up. He could allow it as a fantastical option, but he could also disallow it as nothing like it exists in that campaign universe.

[Alejandro]

You've made great points and I'll agree to everything here with one exception. IF the DM is building a world where there are no T-Rex or anything like it, he has the duty to keep options in spells shaped to how that campaign world is set up. He could allow it as a fantastical option, but he could also disallow it as nothing like it exists in that campaign universe.

Our game is in the Forgotten Realms, where all of those things exist. It's the GM's call. At least I know, *before* committing to having the spell or not.

[Biggstick]

Snip


You've made great points and I'll agree to everything here with one exception. IF the DM is building a world where there are no T-Rex or anything like it, he has the duty to keep options in spells shaped to how that campaign world is set up. He could allow it as a fantastical option, but he could also disallow it as nothing like it exists in that campaign universe.

I'm with you here. Personally, there are no dinosaurs in the world I'm running my Players through in Forgotten Realms. I'm just not a fan of them. And since I'm not a fan of them, and they don't exist in my world, Players aren't turning into them. They can however, Polymorph into anything else normally allowed by the Polymorph spell.

I make sure to tell my Players this in our session 0 as well.


Well, I have decided not to pick up Polymorph, as others have stated, it is not useful enough under the houserules I must use. Since I am a bard, I want to be very careful what spells I choose; I can't just memorize something else, like a wizard can.

I'll probably pick up Greater Invisibility instead. That is a very useful buff for either myself or another PC, and goes well with other non concentration spells I have, or reactions I take, like Bardic Inspiration.

As an extra, I am also about to get my first Magical Secrets (lore bard.) I was going to take Spiritual Weapon and Conjure Animals, but the GM strongly discouraged me from taking any summoning spells, so that will become something else as well.

Greater Invisibility is an awesome spell to grab. As for Magical Secrets, I'd look at grabbing a spell like Fly personally. It's similar to Greater Invisibility in that it's a great spell to use in combat, but it also brings pretty awesome out of combat utility as well.

Another great option is Counterspell. Only an Abjuration Wizard at level 10 is going to be Counter-spelling (and Dispelling Magic for that matter) better then a Bard.

You could also consider grabbing an attack cantrip like Eldritch Blast, if you're lacking in standard damage output.

[Alejandro]

I'm with you here. Personally, there are no dinosaurs in the world I'm running my Players through in Forgotten Realms. I'm just not a fan of them. And since I'm not a fan of them, and they don't exist in my world, Players aren't turning into them. They can however, Polymorph into anything else normally allowed by the Polymorph spell.

I make sure to tell my Players this in our session 0 as well.



Greater Invisibility is an awesome spell to grab. As for Magical Secrets, I'd look at grabbing a spell like Fly personally. It's similar to Greater Invisibility in that it's a great spell to use in combat, but it also brings pretty awesome out of combat utility as well.

Another great option is Counterspell. Only an Abjuration Wizard at level 10 is going to be Counter-spelling (and Dispelling Magic for that matter) better then a Bard.

You could also consider grabbing an attack cantrip like Eldritch Blast, if you're lacking in standard damage output.

I really considered Counterspell, but I read that its effectiveness depends a lot on whether you know what spell is being cast before you use it, or not. My GM said they would not reveal what the spell was until it successfully goes off, so I would potentially end up Counterspelling things I did not want to Counterspell (like a fairly weak cantrip or spell) instead of the nasty stuff I really want to Counter spell, so I decided not to pick it up. I could be wrong?

[Rabbit_Shadow]

I really considered Counterspell, but I read that its effectiveness depends a lot on whether you know what spell is being cast before you use it, or not. My GM said they would not reveal what the spell was until it successfully goes off, so I would potentially end up Counterspelling things I did not want to Counterspell (like a fairly weak cantrip or spell) instead of the nasty stuff I really want to Counter spell, so I decided not to pick it up. I could be wrong?

Talk to your DM about knowing what spell. Based on the V,S,M of the spell and a arcana check, I would think you be able to know what level spell is being cast.

[dejarnjc]

I mean, the Druid spell list is lacking, but in regards to Druid in particular.

Commune with Nature, Conjure Elemental, Scrying, and Wall of Stone are pretty amazing 5th level spells. In particular, Conjure Elemental is one that particularly draws my attention as being way more powerful then Polymorph.

Conjure Fey and Wind Walk are the solid 6th level spells I was able to find. Druids have quite a few other 6th level spells available, but they seem much more niche.

These are spells that are available to all Druids; are you a Moon Druid or a Land Druid? What else do you have in your party in regards to higher level spell casters?


Druid spell list lacking? Hah, no. It isn't. I mean sure, it's not the wizard's spell list but considering druids have full and immediate access to every spell on their list upon leveling, it's pretty awesome.

Conjure elemental is awesome and all and I gladly use it but it is not even comparable to polymorph. Turn your near dead ally into a T-Rex with a simple action or have a CR5 elemental ally that will turn on you if you lose concentration... easy choice.


Wall of Stone, scrying, commune with nature etc. are always great but pretty situational. Polymorph is pretty much always useful.



Anyway. OP I'd still tentatively recommend the spell despite the house rules. Polymorph is great for out of combat shenanigans. It's also great as a type of "banishment" spell whereby you neutralize one creature so that your party can focus fire another.

[Vogonjeltz]

Wanted to see how other 5E GMs and players handle the Polymorph spell, as I am considering picking it up for my Bard.

My GM informed me that I could Polymorph targets/PCs/myself into Beasts "that I have seen." If my PC hasn't seen/encountered it, I can't do it. I did some reviewing, and that eliminates a lot of the beasts that are not 'usual animals' like elk, wolf, crocodile, etc. The highest CR thing I could find that my PC has personally seen is the Cave Bear, CR 2. The GM also said swarms are not OK, so that eliminates those as well. I did the math, and I have seen about 35% of the Beasts, and all of those are CR 2 or lower.

Should I still pick the spell up, or maybe go for something else?

Makes sense, the DM is differentiating between character knowledge and player knowledge.

If you want to expand the utility of the spell, why not have your character, in their down time, research different kinds of fauna? Presumably there's at least a couple books out there that detail what kind of beasts exist in the world, or a few NPCs who could convey enough information about the creatures they're familiar with that you could emulate it.

[Coidzor]

If you want to expand the utility of the spell, why not have your character, in their down time, research different kinds of fauna? Presumably there's at least a couple books out there that detail what kind of beasts exist in the world, or a few NPCs who could convey enough information about the creatures they're familiar with that you could emulate it.

Yeah, there's a real possibility a DM that would make this change would allow research to circumvent the nerf.

[Vogonjeltz]

Yeah, there's a real possibility a DM that would make this change would allow research to circumvent the nerf.

It's unclear why you think any change has occurred. It's all a question of knowledge. If you, as a player, don't know an animal exists, you could never think to change into it.

If the character doesn't know an animal exists, they should never think to change into it either.


The only ways for a character to expand their knowledge is experience or research.

[Rhedyn]

It's unclear why you think any change has occurred. It's all a question of knowledge. If you, as a player, don't know an animal exists, you could never think to change into it.

If the character doesn't know an animal exists, they should never think to change into it either.


The only ways for a character to expand their knowledge is experience or research.that's not how the spell works.

[Byke]

that's not how the spell works.

QFT– RAW does not require any foreknowledge of the creature.

If you need a narrative or RP reason for the creature. The players saw pictures as child, heard stories from his parents, read a book describing it or heard a bard’s tale. At the end of the day imposing this type of rule takes away from the game, the player experience and fun. It doesn’t matter if T-Rexs don’t exist in your “world”, it could be a mythical creature that the character heard of, much like unicorns and dragons 

I will say that between 7th - 10th levels that polymorph is an extremely powerful spell, it can win or turn around any encounter, especially if the players are min –maxers. That being said there are many counters from dispel/countering, concentration or just having the enemy use it as well.
In my experience polymorph open up a lot of opportunities for player to have fun and have memorable encounters. If player are “abusing” it, encounters can be design to take polymorph into consideration, IE players are underground, in tight tunnels, enemies have a caster who can dispel ect..ect.ect...It’s up to the DM to challenge the player, not limit them.