More Skills

[jqavins]

I went looking for comments on Spot vs. Search (for reasons that don't matter here) and the thread I found had a tangent on giving characters more skill points and more flexibility in using them.

Disclaimer: all numbers are thumbsketch examples only. I roll this around in my head all the time, but I've never come up with a detailed plan.

For starters, the template of pre selected class skills is generally not something I'm satisfied with. While there's an extent to which this would just allow more min maxing, I play 3.5 because I like very customizable characters. There are far too few ACFs that trade/add/swap class skills. I think what skills are class skills are something you should be able to customize for your character to some extent. IE, fighter picks 8 class skills, rogue picks 15 class skills. Maybe add a few exclusions, IE, non-magic users can't pick spellcraft as a class skill, and a limit on which knowledge skills you can pick.

Then you simply need to give people more skill points. No class should have 2+int imo, because it hamstrings you anytime you see something with pre reqs. A higher baseline (perhaps 4 or 5) needs to be picked, I'd even support bumping rogues up to 10.

I also think it would be a good idea to halve the cost of the first 5 ranks in each skill. So for the first 5 ranks, 1 rank would cost half a point for class skills, and 1 rank would cost a full point for cross-class skills. That way a character with 10 int and the baseline of 4 or 5 skill ranks per level can get a little diversification thanks to the discount toward early ranks, and then stick to 4 or 5 maxed skills if desired. This would also have the effect of making pre reqs for feats and prcs much less murderous.
This reminded me about a house rule I've been intending to use the next time I'm running a campaign, and wondering if playgrounders have any thoughts.

I would make nearly all skills purchased at one skill point per rank for all classes. I would have a really small number (probably no more than three) of class skills that would be purchased at 1/2 point per rank, and a similar number of anti-class skills purchased at 2 points per rank. (I don't like the term "cross class" for this because of the established meaning that has of "everything except the class skills," which is not how it would be with my method.) I haven't got the lists, but just for example Move Silently would be a class skill for rouges and Use Poison would be anti-class for paladins.

I was thinking along these lines for a while before an example came up in a game that hammered it home. I created a fighter who made a living between adventures as a high priced body guard. I wanted her to have Profession (bodyguard) but Profession is cross-class for fighters. WHAT!?! How about Profession (mercenary) or Profession (thug)? Of course, the DM (being a reasonable DM and then some) allowed the exception, but it shouldn't be an exception.

The poster in the other thread also favors more points across the board, which I would consider, though I'm not sure it's needed when points go further than in RAW.

Opinions?

[aimlessPolymath]

Eh... This feels like it's really just doubling* the number of skill points you get per level. Barring some edge cases, a character with twice as many skill points will have the same number of skill points as someone in this system.

*Except for anti-class skills, the ratio between class skills and non-class/cross-class skills is the same- your skill points just go further per point.

[jqavins]

The number of class skills would be drastically reduced for most classes; it would be only slightly reduced for those classes that have very few to begin with, leaving the number about the same for all classes. The idea is to eliminate the incentive to concentrate exclusively on the same few particular skills for any character of a given class. Even if one does max out the class skills it wouldn't use up all the points and you'd be at no penalty wherever you used the remaining ones, with very few (the anti-class) exceptions.

Doubling the number of points would be equivalent for the cross-class and class skills, but I'd still want to cut most class skill designations and create the anti-class designations. Anti-class skills would then be bought at 1/4 rank per point, and I thought that 1/2 - 1 - 2 (without doubling the number of points) would be less disruptive than 1/4 - 1/2 - 1 (with doubling) even though they are mathematically equivalent.

[Kaskus]

A simple system (though perhaps not as flexible as you want) would be to take a given class's skill list, count the number of class skills and subtract 1 (or some other number). Then allow a character to select that many skills from the original list as their class skills and 1 (or other number) skill from the entire skill list as a class skill. Badically, have a floating class skill. Although, most people without Perception on their class list will just pick that. You could designate the int modified as the number of floating skills they get if you want to emphasize int as the skill stat.

[Knaight]

It seems a bit needlessly complicated - scrapping the cross class skill system entirely would work just as well, with the class and anti-class skills being unnecessary complications.

[Eldan]

It seems a bit needlessly complicated - scrapping the cross class skill system entirely would work just as well, with the class and anti-class skills being unnecessary complications.

This. For my last several campaigns, my rule has been 2 skill points per level more for everyone and all skills are open to everyone. It has, so far, created no problems whatsoever. Of course, most of my players are quite new to the system and don't know much about min-maxing, but still.

[jqavins]

It seems a bit needlessly complicated - scrapping the cross class skill system entirely would work just as well, with the class and anti-class skills being unnecessary complications.Yes, simpler and adequate. Maybe the additional complication isn't worth what it returns.


This. For my last several campaigns, my rule has been 2 skill points per level more for everyone and all skills are open to everyone. It has, so far, created no problems whatsoever. Of course, most of my players are quite new to the system and don't know much about min-maxing, but still.Most of my friends don't care much about min-maxing, so it should work out alright with us.

[Knaight]

Yes, simpler and adequate. Maybe the additional complication isn't worth what it returns.

I will say that I'm coming at this from the perspective of someone who consider cross class skills downright bad design to begin with, a set of largely pointless and largely frustrating niche protection that makes zero sense in a system with such open multiclassing and that routinely blocks characters from skills they should have. If you want a bit of niche protection it wouldn't hurt to keep class skills and cross class skills, then have class skill points and cross class skill points. Class skill points can only be spent on class skills, cross class skill points can only be spent on cross class skills - which are bought at one point per point and have the same maximum as class skills.

[jqavins]

I'm definitely coming around to simply eliminating the cross-class penalty completely. But I hadn't completely got there because some part of me still likes the fluff of having a small handful of skills designated as matching so well with a classes characteristics that they come easier, and a similar small handful that are antithetical to the class characteristics and come harder.

Then, as I was reading your last post, the answer hit me. Instead of a lower point cost per rank for the "class skills," I'll add synergies based on class. In the class description I'll add something like (I haven't worked it all out; I just thought of it literally about a minute ago) "If you have ranks in any of the following skills you gain a synergy bonus equal to the lesser of your ranks and your class level, up to a maximum bonus of 5."

The anti-class stuff I'll leave up to the GM (i.e. my future self) to handle in a softer manner, such as awarding fewer XP as a penalty for poor role playing. Or something.

[Kaskus]

That's how pathfinder does it. You get a +3 bonus to a skill if its a class skill and you put a rank in it.